How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Templar]

Common Slavs culture comes from 5th century at the time of their expansion. Are you sure that at this time they didn't already include groups of two, or more, different physical characteristics?

They probably did, BUT most Slavs that migrated to the Balkans came from modern day Poland. Polish people today are one of the most (if not THE most) Slavic-looking people. Poles also have the highest rate of R1a, which is in most cases correlated with Slavic migrations. Of course not ALL R1a clades are slavic, but the vast majority found in Poland and the Balkans are of "Slavic" origins.

If the Balkan Slavs were overwhelmingly Slavic, more of their haplogroups (other than R1a) would be present in their ancestral tribal lands in Southern Poland.

[sparkey]

Both are the descendants of Cro-Magnon. There is very little slavic ancestry in the Dinaric Alps.

It's possible for I2a-Din to be both descended from Cro-Magnon and largely spread by Slavs in the context of the Balkans.

...and probably above average testosterone levels.

Is there any quality evidence for this? I don't know of any direct haplogroup vs. testosterone level study that has been performed, but based on the few relevant studies (sperm count, etc.) it doesn't seem likely that Haplogroup I means more testosterone.

If the Balkan Slavs were overwhelmingly Slavic, more of their haplogroups (other than R1a) would be present in their ancestral tribal lands in Southern Poland.

I2a-Din is somewhat frequent in Southern Poland (~9% in Poland as a whole, and it's more frequent in Southern Poland), and in fact Southern Poland is around where I2a-Din-S reaches peak diversity, indicating that it launched from there. There aren't many other frequent haplogroups in Poland, just some I1 (probably mostly a late introduction, especially in Southern Poland) and R1b (probably a mixed late introduction with similar old types that you see in Eastern Europe.. although I haven't studied it closely).

[Templar]

It's possible for I2a-Din to be both descended from Cro-Magnon and largely spread by Slavs

I agree, but most of it was probably native.

Is there any quality evidence for this? I don't know of any direct haplogroup vs. testosterone level study that has been performed, but based on the few relevant studies (sperm count, etc.) it doesn't seem likely that Haplogroup I means more testosterone.

Not the haplogroup, but the people who usually have a high frequency of it, aka descendants of Paleolithic Europeans. I am guessing the high testosterone thing based on the fact that haplogroup I populations usually have more masculine features: tallness, high bone density, over-representation in most sports, high forehead, relatively large noses, etc.

I2a-Din is somewhat frequent in Southern Poland (~9% in Poland as a whole, and it's more frequent in Southern Poland)

Could be a back migration of the now mixed Slav-Dinarics, visiting "their cousins"

where I2a-Din-S reaches peak diversity, indicating that it launched from there

Are you sure of this? If this is true, it pretty much destroys my theories. But even if true, how could it possibly be possible? A huge amount of I2a nomads surrounded by overwhelming masses of R1as. I get that they were both mixed populations, but why would one be immensely different from the other 2?

[sparkey]

I agree, but most of it was probably native.

No no, I mean that it is all descended from Cro-Magnon, as well as being largely spread by Slavs in the Balkans. It turns out that Cro-Magnon descendants have gone on to be parts of lots of different ethnicities! Even ones with apparently Asian linguistic roots, and non-Cro-Magnon heritage mixed in.

Are you sure of this? If this is true, it pretty much destroys my theories. But even if true, how could it possibly be possible? A huge amount of I2a nomads surrounded by overwhelming masses of R1as. I get that they were both mixed populations, but why would one be immensely different from the other 2?

It was in Verenich's analysis, which may be archived somewhere. Anyway, I imagine genetic drift occurring on a significant scale to explain the pattern... that is, Slavs could have been a majority R1a/minority I2a-Din to begin with (in fact I find this likely), and when they expanded southward, drift within their population enhanced their I2a-Din at the expense of their R1a. The relationship with autosomal DNA and phenotypes is probably at least as complicated.

[Templar]

No no, I mean that it is all descended from Cro-Magnon, as well as being largely spread by Slavs in the Balkans

Haha I know, I meant it was "native" as in already in Balkans before the Slavic migrations.

If the I2a clades brought by slavs are different from the ones already in the Balkans, then can't we use that to make a rough estimate of what % of the I2a was there before the migrations and what % after.

[sparkey]

If the I2a clades brought by slavs are different from the ones already in the Balkans, then can't we use that to make a rough estimate of what % of the I2a was there before the migrations and what % after.

We can't because we haven't found any surely native ones yet. It seems to all be I2a-Din.

[zanipolo]

We can't because we haven't found any surely native ones yet. It seems to all be I2a-Din.

would a butchering of 150,000 people in an area make a Haplotype difference considering populations in the balkans was not that great in the ancient times.....granted the area in question was Epirus ( modern albania and part of montenegro) , but did the E1b replace I2a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_...us_Macedonicus

can we get I2a only from Northern "yugoslav" lands?

[sparkey]

would a butchering of 150,000 people in an area make a Haplotype difference considering populations in the balkans was not that great in the ancient times.....granted the area in question was Epirus ( modern albania and part of montenegro) , but did the E1b replace I2a

It would probably make a difference in total frequency, yes, but I don't think that we can conclude, based on that, that there must have been ancient I2a in the Balkans. There may have been, there just isn't evidence for it yet, and such a "butchering" doesn't count, either.

IMHO the Northern Balkans seems to have had both E1b and I2a expansions, from different directions. I suspect that something like J2 was the most frequent subclade there at one time.

[zanipolo]

It would probably make a difference in total frequency, yes, but I don't think that we can conclude, based on that, that there must have been ancient I2a in the Balkans. There may have been, there just isn't evidence for it yet, and such a "butchering" doesn't count, either.

IMHO the Northern Balkans seems to have had both E1b and I2a expansions, from different directions. I suspect that something like J2 was the most frequent subclade there at one time.

It makes me wonder that due to the very high % of E1b in this area which was the scene of this void of 150,000 people, that E1b was a migratory people after the Roman general Paulus did his deed.

[Eldritch]

I2a2 was born as Paleolithic haplogroup in Today Ukraine/Moldova and later it expanded in Balkans with Slavic migrations since they incorporated this haplogroup.

[Gosh]

I2a2 was born as Paleolithic haplogroup in Today Ukraine/Moldova and later it expanded in Balkans with Slavic migrations since they incorporated this haplogroup.

I adore such a kind of comments... Someone says something without any proof and disappear.

If you prove something, it would be nace to explain that with the data. This is recommended for all members here, not only for you.

[mihaitzateo]

If this study is good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/...g2008249f2.jpg
Or the reduced version of the link above:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/figure/fig2/
You need to magnify it and wait a little,if you want to see the results.
That it is about 9.4% I2-M423 in north-east italians.The document is written in an older notation,but from what I understand I2-Din south is from I2-M423.Now I2-M423 is called I2a1b and I2-din south is called I2a1b1a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29
No ideea if anyone made deeper testing to see if that I2-M423 from North-east Italy is I2-din south also.
Did slavs ever got there in such numbers?
Because is possibile to be there from colonists brought from Balkans + Romania/Dacia.Or maybe some ancient people from Roman Empire were bearing also I2-M423.

[zanipolo]

If this study is good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/...g2008249f2.jpg
Or the reduced version of the link above:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/figure/fig2/
You need to magnify it and wait a little,if you want to see the results.
That it is about 9.4% I2-M423 in north-east italians.The document is written in an older notation,but from what I understand I2-Din south is from I2-M423.Now I2-M423 is called I2a1b and I2-din south is called I2a1b1a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29
No ideea if anyone made deeper testing to see if that I2-M423 from North-east Italy is I2-din south also.
Did slavs ever got there in such numbers?
Because is possibile to be there from colonists brought from Balkans + Romania/Dacia.Or maybe some ancient people from Roman Empire were bearing also I2-M423.

your last link in regards to north-east italians refers to Trento ( austrian people in majority)
below is a link from your last link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

[mihaitzateo]

your last link in regards to north-east italians refers to Trento ( austrian people in majority)
below is a link from your last link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

If in that test and in the link you gave is said they are north-east italians I think they are italians,I mean they were choosed with italian family names.

[zanipolo]

If in that test and in the link you gave is said they are north-east italians I think they are italians,I mean they were choosed with italian family names.

The historic and current scenario in that area is that it has always been about 55% austrian ( tyrolese) and the rest Italian.

maybe the tyrolese are neither germanic nor italian, but part of the old Raetian people....I am unsure. But these 55% "tyrolese" are noted in the Italian population as Italians from after WW. There are also Ladin people to be counted in there as well.
These people do not have "italian" surnames, ......besides whats an italian surname, ?....... My father's neighbours in northeast italy had surnames of Marzon, Martin, Bon, Pelligrin, Pilot, da Ros, Rosin, all families that where there when his grandfather was alive

[mihaitzateo]

What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...p-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

[sparkey]

What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...p-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

I wouldn't talk about the Celts and Gauls when talking about when I2a-Disles and I2a-Din branched... that event surely occurred before they existed. The TMRCA of I2a1b1 (Disles and Din together) is about 6000 YBP... Neolithic.

Between the two, I2a-Din is the greater geographic outlier within I2a.

[MOESAN]

What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...p-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

I find it very hard thinking Celts could have brought seldom Y-I2a1-DIN or an ancestor of it into Balkans an then take advantage of a baby boom in Balkans (all these suppositions about the iron Age -!
it could be the contrary and yet I don't think so - I believe all this kinds of Y-I2a1 was either before Celts arrived in Occident or arrived with Celts having incorporated someones, not after La Tène expansion but before - without another proof I think still that I2a1b was born somewhere between Moravia and Ukraine (I can(t tell more for the moment) and that the position of its first bearers on a way of passage give it someadventage AND at the Neolithic introduction into Balkans and into further northern regions AND at the Metals Ages - I think still into some Beakers...
and as a lot on this topic I exclude a too early cristallization or expansion in the Dinaric Alps that was almost empty at the Paleolithic...
good night all of yours

[mihaitzateo]

The presence of I2a1b1 in UK at low percentages is weird,since you can not link that with vikings raiding there.
If this I2a1b1 would have been of native population there,how come it remained only in so low percentages?
Maybe some celts that passed over Balkans and Romania took some people of I2a1b1 with them and this is how I2A disles got in Great Britain.
No one knows for sure the time when I2a1b1a* branched from I2a1b1.

The strange thing is that there are cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,I am not refering to those forced cognates written here by how_yes_or_no but to more serious cognates found by scientists.
Some scientists from institute of thracology from Bulgaria said there are about 178 cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,which atests that celts lived sometime together with south slavs.
I also found this document:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/C...avel-Serafimov
Some of the cognates here seems forced,but some are not.
There are few cognates between romanian and celtic languages also,like bou used to called the male of the cow which is identical to the celtic word for cow.
There is also R-L21 in Romania ,they found R-L21 at current romanian president as Y DNA.
There are arheological evidences linked with celts in Romania also,in Balkans also.

[MOESAN]

The presence of I2a1b1 in UK at low percentages is weird,since you can not link that with vikings raiding there.
If this I2a1b1 would have been of native population there,how come it remained only in so low percentages?
Maybe some celts that passed over Balkans and Romania took some people of I2a1b1 with them and this is how I2A disles got in Great Britain.
No one knows for sure the time when I2a1b1a* branched from I2a1b1.

The strange thing is that there are cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,I am not refering to those forced cognates written here by how_yes_or_no but to more serious cognates found by scientists.
Some scientists from institute of thracology from Bulgaria said there are about 178 cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,which atests that celts lived sometime together with south slavs.
I also found this document:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/C...avel-Serafimov
Some of the cognates here seems forced,but some are not.
There are few cognates between romanian and celtic languages also,like bou used to called the male of the cow which is identical to the celtic word for cow.
There is also R-L21 in Romania ,they found R-L21 at current romanian president as Y DNA.
There are arheological evidences linked with celts in Romania also,in Balkans also.

it's the firts time I heard of a survey showing or trying to show cognates linking celtic and slavic languages: we have to be very cautious here because "cognates" can be only some old borrowings or very common old indo-european terms: I have in mind the discussion about terms like 'brjeg' in slavic, shown by someones as the proof of a community of languages between Serbs and Celts... sure there are a lot of I-E cognates: what is interesting is to find someones shared only by celtic and south slavic... - I 'll try to read this survey... (thanks for the link)
Perhaps Taranis will have something to say?

[mihaitzateo]

Look what Jordanes is saying,but I do not know how accurate it is:
"Both writing in the mid-6th century, Jordanes and Procopius provide the first indisputable reference to the Slav ethonym, in the form Sclavenoi. Jordanes writes that their land stretched from the town of Noviodunum, to the river Dniester, then northward to the Vistula river. He adds that the Sclavenoi, Antae, and Veneti were but one people."
But they are refering to venethi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
So it would make a lot of sense,since russians from there are called "white russians" (belarus) croats are called "white croats".


And this could easily explain the resemblances between scandinavian languages and south slavic languages,refering to how the definite article is used in romanian (guess in romanian is influence from south slavic),bulgarian,serbo-croatian and scandinavian,being post-fixed.

But I think these slavs only brought leading class and language not majority of DNA since people in Balkans and Romania are too dark haired and have too high percentage of brown and dark brown eyes to be from there (Vistula region).
Because I know people from there are mostly blue eyed,being with amongst highest percentages in the world with blue eyes - know that belarussians have mostly blue eyes,at over 50% percentage or even more.
And this could also explain the significant percentage of I1 in serbians and croats and so on.
I remember to saw they also found N1C1 in serbians,about 3% so if that is coming to be true,than is clear.

[Gosh]

But I think these slavs only brought leading class and language not majority of DNA since people in Balkans and Romania are too dark haired and have too high percentage of brown and dark brown eyes to be from there (Vistula region).
Because I know people from there are mostly blue eyed,being with amongst highest percentages in the world with blue eyes - know that belarussians have mostly blue eyes,at over 50% percentage or even more.
And this could also explain the significant percentage of I1 in serbians and croats and so on.
I remember to saw they also found N1C1 in serbians,about 3% so if that is coming to be true,than is clear.

OMG How long we will talk about dark and light hair/eyes? Did you know that southern Russians are much more dark than those who are living close to Baltic region? Did you know that people from Spain is much darker than people from Irleand? Both of them are mainly R1b but southern people are darker because they are living in a warm climate with much of sunny days and they are mixed with population which lived there before. Their organism contains more melanine and thats the reason for that.


The highest percentage of blue-eyed people is in Estonia. 40% of Estonians belongs to N1c1 which is close related with other N-s whose mainly looks like mongoloids. Which conclusions we can derive from that?

I understand that your obsession is to prove that I2a1-Din aren't slavic population. But, your arguments are too pale for now.

[mihaitzateo]

OMG How long we will talk about dark and light hair/eyes? Did you know that southern Russians are much more dark than those who are living close to Baltic region? Did you know that people from Spain is much darker than people from Irleand? Both of them are mainly R1b but southern people are darker because they are living in a warm climate with much of sunny days and they are mixed with population which lived there before. Their organism contains more melanine and thats the reason for that.


The highest percentage of blue-eyed people is in Estonia. 40% of Estonians belongs to N1c1 which is close related with other N-s whose mainly looks like mongoloids. Which conclusions we can derive from that?

I understand that your obsession is to prove that I2a1-Din aren't slavic population. But, your arguments are too pale for now.

I do not understand why a certain paternal haplogrup clade should be linked with only a population.
Beside,I do not really believe that such a thing as "slavs" because as you take how people look in Bulgaria,they look different from Serbia and Montenegro and very different from those in Rusia,very diferent from those in Belarus or Czechoslovakia and so on.
To tell R1A1 is slavic is again wrong,because is known there are many clades and some clades are present in different populations.
There is the group of slavic languages,as it is the group of romance languages,but take for example romanians,which are speaking a romance language and people from Spain which are speaking again another romance language,they are very far away on both Y DNA and mt DNA,but take romanians who are speaking a romance language and bulgarians who are speaking a slavic language they are very close on both Y DNA and mt DNA.
So I am saying you can not link a haplogrup clade as general as I2-a din is with only a group of populations speaking languages from same branch of indo-european languages.
I think we should not look with fanatism Y DNA tests.
There is very possibile that Romania and Bulgaria have also some celtic inheritance at least on maternal line,because as barbarian thraco-dacians were I doubt they exterminated celts that were living amongst them and so on.
Till around 1000 or even later,1400-1500 it was a troubled period of Europe,till when ethnicities formed but previous they mixed a lot.
What it exist till now is few data from Y DNA and mt DNA tests,which were not made always with sub-clades and so on.
What maps are here are based on generalisations,because this is how this science is till now,only at begining.

Besides nations/ethicities are based on common language and common customs and closed life style rather that on common genetic ancestry.
Take 2 twins,raise one in Italy and learn him as maternal language italian and raise another one in Germany and learn him as maternal language german.
Let them live until they make 18 years old.
They will look very close,as phisical but they will be of different ethnicities and of very different characters.

So actually no one tryed to associate a Y DNA haplogrup with romance speaking populations,but some wanted to associate some haplogrup/haplogrups with slavic speaking people.

[zanipolo]

I do not understand why a certain paternal haplogrup clade should be linked with only a population.
Beside,I do not really believe that such a thing as "slavs" because as you take how people look in Bulgaria,they look different from Serbia and Montenegro and very different from those in Rusia,very diferent from those in Belarus or Czechoslovakia and so on.
To tell R1A1 is slavic is again wrong,because is known there are many clades and some clades are present in different populations.
There is the group of slavic languages,as it is the group of romance languages,but take for example romanians,which are speaking a romance language and people from Spain which are speaking again another romance language,they are very far away on both Y DNA and mt DNA,but take romanians who are speaking a romance language and bulgarians who are speaking a slavic language they are very close on both Y DNA and mt DNA.
So I am saying you can not link a haplogrup clade as general as I2-a din is with only a group of populations speaking languages from same branch of indo-european languages.
I think we should not look with fanatism Y DNA tests.
There is very possibile that Romania and Bulgaria have also some celtic inheritance at least on maternal line,because as barbarian thraco-dacians were I doubt they exterminated celts that were living amongst them and so on.
Till around 1000 or even later,1400-1500 it was a troubled period of Europe,till when ethnicities formed but previous they mixed a lot.
What it exist till now is few data from Y DNA and mt DNA tests,which were not made always with sub-clades and so on.
What maps are here are based on generalisations,because this is how this science is till now,only at begining.

Besides nations/ethicities are based on common language and common customs and closed life style rather that on common genetic ancestry.
Take 2 twins,raise one in Italy and learn him as maternal language italian and raise another one in Germany and learn him as maternal language german.
Let them live until they make 18 years old.
They will look very close,as phisical but they will be of different ethnicities and of very different characters.

So actually no one tryed to associate a Y DNA haplogrup with romance speaking populations,but some wanted to associate some haplogrup/haplogrups with slavic speaking people.

i basically agree with you, the slavic people are slavs due to language and not genetics. The term slavic means the same to me as the terms of, baltic, germanic, iberic, nordic, latin, celtic etc etc all linguistic based.

[Gosh]

Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.