How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[mihaitzateo]

Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

How about Austria?

[sparkey]

Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Exactly, this. Young, recently expanded haplogroups tend to fit better with more recent population expansions, as I2a-Din does for Slavs, much of I1 does for Germanic peoples, I2a2b does for Celtic peoples, etc. The criticism that haplogroups tend to span multiple historical groups holds much better for haplogroups with expansions that significantly predate history. In terms of I subclades, think I2a2a, I2a1a, etc.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

For the most part I agree, although I find the case of Moldova interesting in particular, and I'm interested in how you resolve the apparently high frequency and diversity of I2a-Din-N there. It doesn't seem as clear cut as the I2a-Din-S expansion on the Balkans.

How about Austria?

Carantania

[Gosh]

How about Austria?

What do you want to say with Austria?

[Gosh]

For the most part I agree, although I find the case of Moldova interesting in particular, and I'm interested in how you resolve the apparently high frequency and diversity of I2a-Din-N there. It doesn't seem as clear cut as the I2a-Din-S expansion on the Balkans.

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-...=11798&rog3=MD

According to some theories the Gagauz people descend from the Seljuq Turks that settled in Dobruja, or from Pechenegs, Uz (Oghuz) and Cuman (Kipchak) people that followed the Anatolian Seljuq Sultan Izzeddin Keykavus II (1236–1276). More specifically, one clan of Oghuz Turks migrated to the Balkans during the inter-tribal conflicts with other Turks.

Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

[Yetos]

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-...=11798&rog3=MD



Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

Gagauz people is a strange case, they Speak Turkic but Historical facts prove them to Be minor Asians Half Greek, NON Turks
Ι mean they consider minor Asian population who change language and not religion,
I do not know about their genetics, but I know their History,
remember that Gagauz live in Greece also, Γκαγκαουζοι-Γκαγκαβουζοι

In Moldova are the ones who followed the Russian Army, while their settlements exist also in Pazardix and Yambol Bulgaria, Beroia Serres Euros river in Greece from 1383 ED (AD),
According to a Gagauz Historian Κραχτογλου Krahtoglu (p 1878) they exist from 1383 in balkans
According to some others they were Greeks-Balkanic who change language,
the term Gagavuz seems to be first mention after the 4rth Crusade,

their inner name is Hiristiani (Christians!!!!)

Until 1957 Gagauz use the Greek alphabet instead of Turkish -Arabian-Semitic alphabets

link
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gagauz.htm

Gagavuz fall to Ottoman Turks at 1398 ,

their primary land is considered the land south of the Bulgars from Haskovo (white village in Gagauz lang, to Varna and Adrianopolis, until Nestos river and some villages in Makedonia)

I can give Historical links but mostly in Greek language,

Gagavuz people according the late Greek authors-searchers are considered a mix of local population which mixed with a minority of minor Asia population,
Meaning that the original Gagavuz where minor Asians non Turkish small quantity-percentance, who mixed with local population that was forced to choose among changing religion or language, to a bigger percentance.

Greek historians are mentioning them from 1243,
as the people of the mother of the Sultan (older local population, before entrance of Seljuks)

the case of Turkish population that was Christianized is simply a joke, cause it was easy to accept Islam in 1400 AD but not the other.

[zanipolo]

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-...=11798&rog3=MD



Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

hmm, not so many "normal" people here ........... !!?

in regards to hungarians , and voyvodina area, is it not in majority based on avars and magyars with a bit of hunnic?

I assume you favour the KN situation that I2-Din came from the ukraine marshes and then the balkans was only J2 and E1b and not the scenario of the goths bringing it from the vistula area

[sparkey]

Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

Thanks, that's what I try to do. Your analyses have also been very good so far.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion.

Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

(Disclaimer: To be clear, the above is exclusively about Moldova and its immediate surroundings. I still strongly favor a Slavic introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans.)

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

This proposed migration fits all the best analyses I've seen, so I'm inclined to agree.

[zanipolo]

Thanks, that's what I try to do. Your analyses have also been very good so far.



Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

(Disclaimer: To be clear, the above is exclusively about Moldova and its immediate surroundings. I still strongly favor a Slavic introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans.)



This proposed migration fits all the best analyses I've seen, so I'm inclined to agree.

your comments seem very unexacting, confusing in reference to slavic, what do you mean?. the slavic language did not enter the balkans as per historians until the 6th century AD.
OR do you mean a people brought this I2a-DIn who later became slavic due to learning the slavic tongue.

It would be as confusing as say.....the nordic invaded England in their longships,

The earliest historian for the balkans geography and peoples was Scylax who wrote about the tribes and languages of the balkans in 490BC, he does not mention anything about slavic.

[Gosh]

Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

well... nobody can know for sure what happened in the past. The only way would be to cluster Moldavian I2a-Din and compare them with the rest of Slavic I2a-Din. We need some time for that (more DNA results) . I only can say that early today's Bulgarians (so called, union of seven Slavic tribes) lived in that region.
Of course, it is quite possible that some early bearer of I2a-Din "escaped" from the "Slavic environment" and started to live with another tribes. But, if we find that Moldavian I2a-Din are in the same cluster as those in Bulgarians, everything would be clear.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

I dunno, to be honest. According to KN motherland of I2a-Din is in the region of Slavic motherland. Distribution of this haplogroup is again closely related with Slavic migrations. We also have significant amounts of I2a's in non-Slavic populations like Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, Hungarians, Germans. But, all of them were under Slavic influence in some period of time.

[Gosh]

Gagauz people is a strange case, they Speak Turkic but Historical facts prove them to Be minor Asians Half Greek, NON Turks

Well... I'll say a big truth now... Modern Turks are not genuine Turks which conquered Asia Minor. Highest percent of them belonged to the people who lived there before Turkish arrival. They were conquered and assimilated.

Ι mean they consider minor Asian population who change language and not religion,
I do not know about their genetics, but I know their History,
remember that Gagauz live in Greece also, Γκαγκαουζοι-Γκαγκαβουζοι

It is a bit suspicious. Turkic language came into Asia Minor with Oguz's tribe. When they came, they were Muslims already. That means that they couldn't preserve Christianity and receive only Turkic language.

[Yetos]

Well... I'll say a big truth now... Modern Turks are not genuine Turks which conquered Asia Minor. Highest percent of them belonged to the people who lived there before Turkish arrival. They were conquered and assimilated.



It is a bit suspicious. Turkic language came into Asia Minor with Oguz's tribe. When they came, they were Muslims already. That means that they couldn't preserve Christianity and receive only Turkic language.

Nope according the laws of Islam non muslims should pay taxes to save their necks,
Turks always gave an alternate solution, they force people to change one of their older identity,
In order not to pay 'save head' Tax people should either change language or religion,
Byzantines and Greeks choose to change language and keep religion that why in 1923 and exchange of population there were hundreds of Greeks who did not even speak Greek, only few prays and religious words,

on the other hand in Balkans All population change religion, that is why Bosnia and Albania and Pomaks speak their languages today, but kept their languages.

a good example are the Kappadokian Greeks the Zeibek Greeks etc most of them re-learn the Greek language after 1923,

yet Gagavuz are not Seljuks but the people of the mother of the Sultan who was Byzantine Christian,
Besides primary Balkanic homeland of Gagavuz is next to Adrianoupolis Turkish Edirne which was the Turkish capital for many decades, they should change either religion either language, as the common Turkish demands,

majority of Gagavuz are considered Balcanic who have South Thracian culture (modern) but the terminology is from minor Asian Gagavuz who moved from the city of Ikonio.

the think that you should see as 'suspicious' is why Gagavuz used Greek alphabet until 1957 when USSR forbid them so. and not Cyrillic or Turkish -Arabian if they were Turks

[sparkey]

your comments seem very unexacting, confusing in reference to slavic, what do you mean?. the slavic language did not enter the balkans as per historians until the 6th century AD.
OR do you mean a people brought this I2a-DIn who later became slavic due to learning the slavic tongue.

You're getting at what I mean more with the first interpretation. I think that the folks who brought I2a-Din to the Balkans spoke Slavic language, and migrated in the 1st millennium CE. And I was saying, that also seems likely for the earliest I2a-Din in Moldova, or at least the bulk of it, but that I'm less sure about that case.

I think that the assimilation into Slavic culture happened somewhere other than these two places, and before it spread to these two places, probably in Ukraine. I guess Belarus and some other places are possibilities as well.

It would be as confusing as say.....the nordic invaded England in their longships,

How is that confusing? I also have a rough idea of what haplogroups Anglo-Saxons and Vikings are likely to have brought to England.

[Templar]

You're getting at what I mean more with the first interpretation. I think that the folks who brought I2a-Din to the Balkans spoke Slavic language, and migrated in the 1st millennium CE. And I was saying, that also seems likely for the earliest I2a-Din in Moldova, or at least the bulk of it, but that I'm less sure about that case.

Sparky maybe I2a-Din was already in the Balkans, but not in the Western half of it. I don't see how a large number of haplogroup I could have survived in the plains of Eastern Europe, the Indo-Europeans would have completely massacred them. I mean if you look at haplogroup maps, the only places where Haplogroup I survived was isolated places like Scandinavia and locations where they were close enough to near eastern farmers to recieve farming technology. Imagine a scenario where a strong haplogroup I population lived in modern Romania, and as Slavs came along they brought a large number of their population into the West balkans. By the time that they would have arrived, most of the people they brough along would have been Slavicized.

[sparkey]

Sparky maybe I2a-Din was already in the Balkans, but not in the Western half of it. I don't see how a large number of haplogroup I could have survived in the plains of Eastern Europe, the Indo-Europeans would have completely massacred them. I mean if you look at haplogroup maps, the only places where Haplogroup I survived was isolated places like Scandinavia and locations where they were close enough to near eastern farmers to recieve farming technology. Imagine a scenario where a strong haplogroup I population lived in modern Romania, and as Slavs came along they brought a large number of their population into the West balkans. By the time that they would have arrived, most of the people they brough along would have been Slavicized.

Actually, what you describe isn't wholly incompatible with what I have been thinking. If we go back to the origin of the Slavs, what were they? They must have been a branch of the Balto-Slavs, and since we know that the Balts did not end up with I2a-Din, the best assumption must be that the Slavs absorbed some other population toward the beginning of their origin. Their subsequent migrations could have expanded their absorbed genetics at the expense of those they share with the Balts.

Was the Haplogroup I2-heavy population they absorbed in Romania? That's certainly a possibility, although I have been inclined to imagine the absorption event happening farther north for a couple of reasons. For one, Romania was a core Dacian area, and it's a bit easier to explain the early Slavs absorbing an unknown northern tribe than absorbing the Dacians. Secondly, if we consider the alternate possibility (closer to what you describe) of the expanding Slavs absorbing an I2-heavy population as they expanded, we're unable to explain why East Slavs also have I2a-Din... again placing this mystery I2a-Din source population farther north, where the Slavs are thought to have originated (Ukraine?).

As for where Haplogroup I "survived," I don't think that modern frequency distributions tell us much. I have explored where Haplogroup I seems to have ended up mostly following the Neolithic, and it doesn't match modern frequency distributions very well. Notably, I2a-Din has always seemed to be an outlier, especially considering that its closest cousins are quite western. One pattern I notice is that they did not seem to have survived in only "isolated places"... rather, other than a few oddities like North Britain, the Pyrenees, and the Alps, they seem to have survived mainly in hospitable places like the Rhine and the Atlantic Fringe. Most modern I-heavy "isolated" areas seem to have gotten their I from later expansions (Sardinia, Scandinavia, Dinaric Alps...).

[Templar]

Was the Haplogroup I2-heavy population they absorbed in Romania? That's certainly a possibility, although I have been inclined to imagine the absorption event happening farther north for a couple of reasons.

Well I heard there was a lot of I2 diversity there, and it also seems like a good location for the existence of a mixed-paleolithic-near eastern population.

Secondly, if we consider the alternate possibility (closer to what you describe) of the expanding Slavs absorbing an I2-heavy population as they expanded, we're unable to explain why East Slavs also have I2a-Din... again placing this mystery I2a-Din source population farther north, where the Slavs are thought to have originated (Ukraine?).

Could back migrations explain it? Or perhaps when Slavs conquered Romania, they took a percentage of the population off as slaves which they then sold to other Slavs. If Romania was heavily populated at the time, the slaves could have left a big imprint Y-haplogroup-wise on all Slavic populations.

[nordicwarrior]

Sparkey, I recently mentioned this on another thread... The Dacians "look" haplogroup I to me, including the leadership. This is a totally unscientific observation, but the statues show full beards, large frames, wider faces, wavy hair. They seem almost Norse in appearance. The sculptors were really able to capture alot of detail in their work.

[Dalmat]

With Croatshttp://www.hkz-kkv.ch/slike/bijela_hr.jpghttp://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4391/balanowsky2012.png

[nordicwarrior]

Dumb question, but what hg would Jason and the Argonauts have the best chance of being a member?

[nordicwarrior]

The Argonauts would almost have to be a branch of I wouldn't they?

[nordicwarrior]

After more research, I think they would have been a mix of sea peoples--so maybe I2, J2, G, and E?

[Yetos]

it is funny,
R1 came from steppes after 3500 BC, R1b and R1a
Sea peoples who are mentioned after 2000 BC were I2 J2 G E,
N Hg is very rare and very North,
J1 is mostly Semitic and rare,
let me see...
So Varna culture at 4000 BC was only I1, cause that is what left, at least in Greece, before steppe and sea peoples,

Funny is n't it?

[nordicwarrior]

I go back and forth on the age of haplogroup I1. Does Varna hold verifiable proof of ancient I1? What about I2a-Din?

[Eldritch]

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1364613803

A Polish I-L621 is ancestral for two SNPs unlike other I-L621 people

This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.

[gyms]

This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.[/QUOTE]What´s the "proof",Eldritch?

[Eldritch]

[QUOTE=gyms;405726]This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.

What´s the "proof",Eldritch?

Read the link i posted.