How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[motzart]

Probably I'm impatient, but is anyone going to answer my simple question?

Sorry Shetop for not responding sooner. Based on Jordanes the Goths had been living in Moesia/Thrace/Dacia before they Settled above the Sea of Pontus (Modern West Ukraine). But we see the major migration at the beginning of the Gothic war south of the Danube. If I have to pick an exact date I will say 376 AD as it is the start of the Gothic War, Pannonia was settled sometime after that and the Goths were there for ~100 years before the establishment of the Ostrogothic Kingdom and their move into Dalmatia.

Jordanes lists many settlements in the Balkans by the Goths

(38) We read that on their first migration the Goths dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis. On the second migration they went to Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and after their third they dwelt again in Scythia, above the Sea of Pontus. Nor do we find anywhere in their written records legends which tell of their subjection to slavery in Britain or in some other island, or of their redemption by a certain man at the cost of a single horse. Of course if anyone in our city says that the Goths had an origin different from that I have related, let him object. For myself, I prefer to believe what I have read, rather than put trust in old wives' tales.

And a little later

Now when the Goths saw the Gepidae defending for themselves the territory of the Huns and the people of the Huns dwelling again in their ancient abodes, they preferred to ask for lands from the Roman Empire, rather than invade the lands of others with danger to themselves. So they received Pannonia, which stretches in a long plain, being bounded on the east by Upper Moesia, on the south by Dalmatia, on the west by Noricum and on the north by the Danube.





Now look at that list of settled areas and look at exactly where we see an increase in the amont of I2a1 and a decrease in the areas where they are not listed as having Settled. Don't let that spot in Eastern Germany/West Czech Republic throw you off or any of it found West of Italy, that is all I2a1a (not Din) and we are talking about I2a1b(L621 to be precise)



And another Wielbark/Chernyakhov map



and a little more on the 'Chernyakhov' from wikipedia

Migration

Whilst acknowledging the mixed origins of the Chernyakiv culture, Peter Heather suggests that the culture is ultimately a reflection of the Goths' domination of the Pontic area. He cites literary sources that attest that the Goths were the centre of political attention at this time.^[16] In particular, the culture's development corresponds well with Jordanes' tale of Gothic migration from Gothiscandza to Oium, under the leadership of Filimer. Moreoever, he highlights that crucial external influences that catalysed Chernyakhov cultural development derived from the Wielbark culture. Originating in the mid-1st century, it spread from south of the Baltic Sea (from territory around later Pomerania) down the Vistula in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Wielbark elements are prominent in the Chernyakhov zone, such as typical 'Germanic' pottery, brooch types and female costume, and, in particular, weaponless bi-ritual burials. Although cultures may spread without substantial population movements, Heather draws attention to a decrease in the number of settlements in the original Pomeranian Wielbark heartland as evidence of a significant population movement. Combined with Jordanes' account, Heather concludes that a movement of Goths (and other east Germanic groups such as Heruli and Gepids) "played a major role in the creation of the Cernjachove culture".^[17] He clarifies that this movement was not a single, royal-led, migration, but was rather accomplished by a series of small, sometimes mutually antagonistic groups.<sup>[18]

The part I bolded there is a huge point for the background of these people being NON R1a. R1a=Indo Eurpeans=Kurgans=Buried WITH weapons. Weaponless burials is a huge boon for I2a-Din being the primary Y DNA Haplogroup of the Goths.</sup>

[Sile]

Nothing Pytheas wrote there contradicts what Jordanes wrote, whether it is pre-Goth gutones or Goths by another name is irrelevant. It is estimated that the Germanic migrations began in 750 B.C., there is nothing conflicting with a 320 B.C. or earlier settlement of Gothiscandza. These were oral traditions passed down by a people for centuries, you think they made it up or got it wrong? Jordanes was a Goth himself and the criticisms of his history are all minor labeling issues nothing with the history itself.

There has to be a relevance..........we are talking origins, if Gepids are "cousins" of the Guttones ( goths) then they live together. Besides Jordanes states the goths are east-Germanic

According to a tale related by Jordanes, Gothiscandza was arguably the first settlement of the Goths (Getae) after their migration from Scandinavia (Scandza) during the first half of the 1st century A.D.

Jordanes relates that the East Germanic tribe of Goths were led from Scandza by their king Berig. As soon as they had set foot in the land, they named the area Gothiscandza. They soon moved to the settlements of the Rugians (Ulmerugi, a Germanic tribe which had arrived in the area already before the Goths), who lived on the coast, and they chased them away. Then they defeated their new neighbours, the Vandals.

Clearly there is confusion in his writings, ..........east-germanic tribe went from Scandinavia?...................was scandinavia also East-Germanic? ..........were where the Gepids in this relationship,
The settlements of the Gepids would have been at the mouth of the Vistula River, corresponding to the archaeological Wielbark culture.

Clearly then if think they came from Scandinavia and archeology states they stayed on the Vistula for centuries, then clearly coastl Poland was infested with Goths as per the map I previously provided.

[Sile]

getting info from the I HG expert - Ken Nordveldt ( only in bold)

He says the I2a2a are too pervasive in eastern Europe to have been spread by the Goths. They were definitely
not that numerous in ancient times like today. But were already large enough to conquer most of eastern Europe.
And they indeed were moving around very many indigenous people.

A great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain,
it was basically just their name that arrived the iberian peninsula. But that counts only for the later period. Not when they
migrated, in large numbers, out from Pommerian plains.
While Ken Nordtvedt says: “It seems more likely to me that I1-T2 Z63+ and I1d1 L22+ and P109+ are associated with the Goths.

[motzart]

getting info from the I HG expert - Ken Nordveldt ( only in bold)

He says the I2a2a are too pervasive in eastern Europe to have been spread by the Goths. They were definitely
not that numerous in ancient times like today. But were already large enough to conquer most of eastern Europe.
And they indeed were moving around very many indigenous people.

A great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain,
it was basically just their name that arrived the iberian peninsula. But that counts only for the later period. Not when they
migrated, in large numbers, out from Pommerian plains.
While Ken Nordtvedt says: “It seems more likely to me that I1-T2 Z63+ and I1d1 L22+ and P109+ are associated with the Goths.

I disagree with every single point, and that quote came from him a long time ago while the Paleolithic continuity theory had the most support (which is why he is calling I2a1b I2a2a). I think Paleolithic continuity is still a strong model but if we are working outside of that theory then I don't think there is any explanation that comes close to the fit of the Goths.

Doing a little reading back in this thread it looks like Ken was interested in a Serbian origin.. I see a lot of problems with that, especially considering the Study on Haplogroup I being Pre-Slav in Croatia I have referenced before.

[Shetop]

after they started attacking the dacians.........the dacians fled into Roman lands to escape .............so its while Roman empire still existed

Can you provide some source for this, please? And don't forget, I wrote Western Balkans.

[Shetop]

If I have to pick an exact date I will say 376 AD as it is the start of the Gothic War, Pannonia was settled sometime after that and the Goths were there for ~100 years before the establishment of the Ostrogothic Kingdom and their move into Dalmatia.

So basically, you are saying that Goths took control of the Western Balkans after they had established Ostrogothic Kingdom (with which I agree). So today we have predominant I2a-Din in the Western Balkans as a consequence of that, but I2a-Din can be found in traces in Italy, even though the centre of their kingdom was in Italy?

I would say that this is ridiculous.

[Sile]

Can you provide some source for this, please? And don't forget, I wrote Western Balkans.

what does this matter with the discussion.

if you read my theory from previous posts on this thread, i stated I2a Din came either from the Illyrians of central europe heading south into the balkans from year 1000BC to year 400BC inclusive or the Cimmerians from South Ukraine around 700BC arriving in Pannonia BEFORE the sycthians and sarmatians arrived.
I regard goths in majority to be R1a , some I1 and other smaller components

[Shetop]

what does this matter with the discussion.

if you read my theory from previous posts on this thread, i stated I2a Din came either from the Illyrians of central europe heading south into the balkans from year 1000BC to year 400BC inclusive or the Cimmerians from South Ukraine around 700BC arriving in Pannonia BEFORE the sycthians and sarmatians arrived.
I regard goths in majority to be R1a , some I1 and other smaller components

Ok sorry, I thought you support the Gothic theory. I disagree with you too, but lets leave it for later.

[motzart]

So basically, you are saying that Goths took control of the Western Balkans after they had established Ostrogothic Kingdom (with which I agree). So today we have predominant I2a-Din in the Western Balkans as a consequence of that, but I2a-Din can be found in traces in Italy, even though the centre of their kingdom was in Italy?

I would say that this is ridiculous.

The Goths were never settled in Italy it was a military conquest, the homeland of these people was made in Pannonia. The Ostrogothic kingdom only lasted for 60 years as well so not much time for a lot of population drift especially in one of the most populated areas in Europe at that time.

Bosnia has a population of ~4 million , I2a1b frequency .55 = ~2.2 million
Croatia has a population of ~4 million, I2a1b frequency .37 = ~1.48 million

Italy has a population of ~60 million, I2a1 frequency about 3% but most of that is I2a1a, so frequency 1-2% = 600,000-1.2 million

If you look at the actual numbers it adds up, "trace frequencies" are misleading and sampling done is in its infancy. All that can be said for sure is that there is a lot of I2a1b in the Balkans, the most found in Pannonia/Dalmatia.

I've also posted a study earlier about a 9.4% frequency of I2a1 in Northern Italy(Trento), don't take Maciamo's maps as facts just very rough guesses.

If you want to know exactly why there is little in Italy and more in the northwestern Balkans, the Gothic conquest of Italy was never some genocide against the native inhabitants with the intention of resettlement of the Goths, it was a co-operative effort with the Eastern Roman Empire to re-assert Roman administration (which happened to fail miserably):

Hunnic invasions

The rise of the Huns around 370 overwhelmed the Gothic kingdoms. Many of the Goths migrated into Roman territory in the Balkans, while others remained north of the Danube under Hunnic rule. They became one of the many Hunnic vassals fighting in Europe, as in the Battle of Chalons in 451. Several uprisings against the Huns were suppressed. The collapse of Hunnic power in the 450s led to further violent upheaval in the lands north of the Danube, during which most of the Goths resident in the area migrated to the Balkans. It was this group that became known as the Ostrogoths.

Gothic was still spoken sporadically in Crimea as late as the 16th century: the Crimean Gothic language.

Post-Hunnic movements

Their recorded history begins with their independence from the remains of the Hunnic Empire following the death of Attila the Hun in 453. Allied with the former vassal and rival, the Gepids and the Ostrogoths led by Theodemir broke the Hunnic power of Attila's sons in the Battle of Nedao in 454.
The Ostrogoths now entered into relations with the Empire, and were settled on lands in Pannonia. During the greater part of the latter half of the 5th century, the East Goths played in south-eastern Europe nearly the same part that the West Goths played in the century before. They were seen going to and from, in every conceivable relation of friendship and enmity with the Eastern Roman power, until, just as the West Goths had done before them, they passed from the East to the West.

Kingdom in Italy

Main article: Ostrogothic Kingdom

Map of Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy and the Balkans


The greatest of all Ostrogothic rulers, the future Theoderic the Great (whose name means "leader of the people") of Ostrogothic Kingdom, was born to Theodemir in or about 454, soon after the Battle of Nedao. His childhood was spent at Constantinople as a diplomatic hostage,^[13] where he was carefully educated. The early part of his life was taken up with various disputes, intrigues and wars within the Byzantine empire, in which he had as his rival Theoderic Strabo, a distant relative of Theoderic the Great and son of Triarius. This older but lesser Theoderic seems to have been the chief, not the king, of that branch of the Ostrogoths that had settled within the Empire earlier. Theoderic the Great, as he is sometimes distinguished, was sometimes the friend, sometimes the enemy, of the Empire. In the former case he was clothed with various Roman titles and offices, as patrician and consul; but in all cases alike he remained the national Ostrogothic king. Theoderic is also known for his attainment of support from the Catholic Church, which he gained by appeasing the Pope in 520. During his reign, Theoderic, who was an Arian, allowed freedom of religion, which had not been done before. However, he did try to appease the Pope and tried to keep his alliance with the church strong. He saw the Pope as an authority not only in the church but also over Rome.
Theoderic sought to revive Roman culture and government and in doing so, profited the Italian people.^[14] It was in both characters together that he set out in 488, by commission from the Byzantine emperor Zeno, to recover Italy from Odoacer. By 493 Ravenna was taken, where Theoderic would set up his capital. It was also at this time that Odoacer was killed by Theoderic's own hand. Ostrogothic power was fully established over Italy, Sicily, Dalmatia and the lands to the north of Italy. In this war^[which?] the Ostrogoths and Visigoths began again to unite, if we may accept the witness of one writer^{[citation needed]} that Theoderic was helped by Visigothic auxiliaries. The two branches of the nation were soon brought much more closely together; after he was forced to become regent of the Visigothic kingdom of Toulouse, the power of Theoderic was practically extended over a large part of Gaul and over nearly the whole of the Iberian peninsula. Theoderic also attempted to forge an alliance with the Frankish and Burgundian kingdoms by means of a series of diplomatic marriages. This strengthening of power eventually led the Byzantine emperor to fear that Theoderic would become too strong, and motivated his subsequent alliance with the Frankish king, Clovis I, to counter and ultimately overthrow the Ostrogoths.


The mausoleum of Theoderic the Great in Ravenna


A time of confusion followed the death of Alaric II, the son-in-law of Theoderic, at the Battle of Vouillé. The Ostrogothic king stepped in as the guardian of his grandson Amalaric, and preserved for him all his Iberian and a fragment of his Gaul dominion. Toulouse passed to the Franks but the Goth kept Narbonne and its district and Septimania, which was the last part of Gaul held by the Goths and kept the name of Gothia for many ages. While Theoderic lived, the Visigothic kingdom was practically united to his own dominion. He seems also to have claimed a kind of protectorate over the Germanic powers generally, and indeed to have practically exercised it, except in the case of the Franks.
The Ostrogothic dominion was now again as great in extent as and far more splendid than it could have been in the time of Hermanaric; however it was now of a wholly different character. The dominion of Theoderic was not a barbarian but a civilized power. His twofold position ran through everything. He was at once national king of the Goths, and successor, though without any imperial titles, of the West Roman emperors. The two nations, differing in manners, language and religion, lived side by side on the soil of Italy; each was ruled according to its own law, by the prince who was, in his two separate characters, the common sovereign of both.
The picture of Theoderic's rule is drawn for us in the state papers drawn up, in his name and in the names of his successors, by his Roman minister Cassiodorus. The Goths seem to have been thick on the ground in northern Italy; in the south they formed little more than garrisons. In Theoderic's theory the Goth was the armed protector of the peaceful Roman; the Gothic king had the toil of government, while the Roman consul had the honour. All the forms of the Roman administration went on, and the Roman policy and culture had great influence on the Goths themselves. The rule of the prince over distinct nations in the same land was necessarily despotic; the old Germanic freedom was necessarily lost. Such a system needed a Theoderic to carry it on. It broke in pieces after his death.
War with Rome (535–554)

Main article: Gothic War (535–554)

Coin of Theodahad (534-536), minted in Rome. He wears the barbaric moustache.


Upon the death of Theoderic in 526 the Ostrogoths and Visigoths were again separated. The few instances where they act together after this time are as scattered and incidental as they were before. Amalaric succeeded to the Visigothic kingdom in Iberia and Septimania. Provence was added to the dominion of the new Ostrogothic king Athalaric, the grandson of Theoderic through his daughter Amalasuntha. Both were unable to settle disputes among Gothic elites. Theodahad, cousin of Amalasuntha and nephew of Theoderic through his sister, took over and slew them; however the usurping ushered in more bloodshed. Three more rulers stepped in during the next five years.
The weakness of the Ostrogothic position in Italy now showed itself. The Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian I always strove to restore as much of the Western Roman Empire as he could and certainly would not pass up the opportunity. In 535, he commissioned Belisarius to attack the Ostrogoths. Belisarius quickly captured Sicily and then crossed into Italy where he captured Naples and Rome in 536 and then marched north, taking Mediolanum (Milan) and the Ostrogoth capital of Ravenna in 540.
At this point Justinian offered the Goths a generous settlement—too generous by far in Belisarius' eyes—the right to keep an independent kingdom in the Northwest of Italy, and the demand that they merely give half of all their treasure to the Empire. Belisarius conveyed the message to the Goths, although he himself withheld from endorsing it. They, on the other hand felt there must be a snare somewhere. The Goths did not trust Justinian, but because Belisarius had been so well-mannered in his conquest they trusted him a little more, and agreed to take the settlement only if Belisarius endorsed it. This condition made for something of an impasse.

Totila razes the walls of Florence: illumination from the Chigi ms of Villani's Cronica.


A faction of the Gothic nobility pointed out that their own king Witiges, who had just lost, was something of a weakling and they would need a new one. Eraric, the leader of the group, endorsed Belisarius and the rest of the kingdom agreed, so they offered him their crown. Belisarius was a soldier, not a statesman, and still loyal to Justinian. He made as if to accept the offer, rode to Ravenna to be crowned, and promptly arrested the leaders of the Goths and reclaimed their entire kingdom—no halfway settlements—for the Empire.
This upset Justinian greatly: the Persians had been attacking in the east, and he wanted a stable neutral country separating his western border from the Franks, who weren't so friendly. Belisarius was sent to face the Persians and therefore left John, a Byzantine officer, to govern Italy temporarily.
In 545 Belisarius returned to Italy, where he found the situation had changed greatly. Eraric was slain and the pro-Roman faction of Gothic elite had been toppled. In 541 the Ostrogoths had elected a new leader Totila; this Goth nationalist and brilliant commander had recaptured all of northern Italy and even driven the Byzantines out of Rome. Belisarius took the offensive, tricked Totila into yielding Rome along the way, but then lost it again after a jealous Justinian, fearful of Belisarius' power, starved him of supplies and reinforcements. Belisarius was forced to go on the defensive, and in 548, Justinian relieved him in favor of the eunuch general Narses, of whom he was more trustful.
Totila was slain in the Battle of Taginae in July 552 and his followers Teia, Aligern, Scipuar, and Gibal were all killed or surrendered in the Battle of Mons Lactarius in October 552 or 553. Widin, the last attested member of the Gothic army revolted in late 550s, with minimal military help from the Franks. His uprising was fruitless; the revolt ended with Widin captured and brought to Constantinople for punishment in 561 or 562.
With that final defeat, the remaining Ostrogoths went back north and (re)settled in south Austria. The Ostrogothic name wholly died. The nation had practically evaporated with Theoderic's death. "The leadership of western Europe therefore passed by default to the Franks. Consequently, Ostrogothic failure and Frankish success were crucial for the development of early medieval Europe", for Theoderic had made it "his intention to restore the vigor of Roman government and Roman culture".^[15] The chance of forming a national state in Italy by the union of Roman and Germanic elements, such as those that arose in Gaul, in Iberia, and in parts of Italy under Lombard rule, was thus lost. As a result the Goths hold a different place in Iberian memory than in Italian memory: In Italy, the Ostrogoths were a momentary invader and ruler, while in Iberia the Visigoths supplied an important element in the founding of that nation, a fact that has been neither forgotten nor despised. Part of the unconquered region of northern Iberia, the land of Asturias, kept for a while the name of Gothia, as did the Gothic possessions in Gaul.

[Sile]

Ok sorry, I thought you support the Gothic theory. I disagree with you too, but lets leave it for later.

so you think it was a slavic tribe....name the slavic tribe or tribes that carried this marker then!!!

[Shetop]

@motzart you can post the largest post ever but it won't help. Pannonia is not the part of the Western Balkans.
Also you don't need to point me to a correct data or wrong maps, I knew about all those couple of years ago. Italian frequencies are significantly less than those you wrote, but it does not matter...

All I see is twisting the facts because you would rather be a relative of the Goths, than some other people.

[Shetop]

so you think it was a slavic tribe....name the slavic tribe or tribes that carried this marker then!!!

There was no a ceratin name. Those people did not come as some highly organized tribe. Those were people looking for a better land, and what was happening after the fall of the Roman Empire was opening the doors for them.

I'm just sure they spoke Slavic language.

[Shetop]

so you think it was a slavic tribe....name the slavic tribe or tribes that carried this marker then!!!

This is a part of the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

[Sile]

This is a part of the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

I read it, but I am a bit confused. The map shows sclaveni on the east Balkans ( modern Romania ) and the west balkans has Gepidae ( goths ) , heruli, rugi and suevi all germanic tribes.
did you really refer before to east balkans for I2a din or west balkans?

It also says that the sclaveni are the goths
Goths brought back an advanced culture and thus became the nobility where they went, we can infer that 'Sc' is derived from 'Scandz' meaning Gord/Burgwall (cmpr: Scandinavia) and 'Lev' meaning 'Law/Nation' (cmpr: Danelaw) and 'veni' meaning 'foederati' (cmpr: Venedhi, Tervini). Thus devolved, 'Sclaveni' is to be understood as 'Adherents to the Burg Law'

[Shetop]

I read it, but I am a bit confused. The map shows sclaveni on the east Balkans ( modern Romania ) and the west balkans has Gepidae ( goths ) , heruli, rugi and suevi all germanic tribes.
did you really refer before to east balkans for I2a din or west balkans?

As I wrote above, that wikipedia article is a part of the story. The other part is Slavic settlement in the Western Balkans in the first half of the 7th century.

It also says that the sclaveni are the goths
Goths brought back an advanced culture and thus became the nobility where they went, we can infer that 'Sc' is derived from 'Scandz' meaning Gord/Burgwall (cmpr: Scandinavia) and 'Lev' meaning 'Law/Nation' (cmpr: Danelaw) and 'veni' meaning 'foederati' (cmpr: Venedhi, Tervini). Thus devolved, 'Sclaveni' is to be understood as 'Adherents to the Burg Law'

Someone wrote that as a possibility (which I find very unlikely), but every historian would remind about earlier mentioning of Slavs completely independently from Goths (Ptolemy).

[FrankN]

@motzart you can post the largest post ever but it won't help. Pannonia is not the part of the Western Balkans.
Also you don't need to point me to a correct data or wrong maps, I knew about all those couple of years ago. Italian frequencies are significantly less than those you wrote, but it does not matter...

All I see is twisting the facts because you would rather be a relative of the Goths, than some other people.

Please, Shetop, do us all the favour of acquainting yourself with the basic facts and terminology before posting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia_(Roman_province)

Pannonia was an ancient province of the Roman Empire bounded north and east by the Danube, coterminous westward with Noricum and upper Italy, and southward with Dalmatia and upper Moesia. Pannonia was located over the territory of the present-day western Hungary, eastern Austria, northern Croatia, north-western Serbia, Slovenia, western Slovakia and northern Bosnia and Herzegovina.

I also recall a recent post of yours where you claimed the Slavs came from Wallachia - which makes perfect sense considering that Wallachia has, for all we know, since Roman times always used a Romanic language and was never slavicised. Finally, you first ask about details about the Goths, which already have been given a few pages further up in great detail and with various maps, and then claim to have known everything and complain about others writing long posts in reply to your repeated questions.
I for my point am still interested in deploring your original argument, that the I2a-Din distribution relates to a single event rather than a longer migration process, in further detail. But the way you are currently presenting yourself here lets me - unfortunately - doubt that you really know what you are talking about.

Just for the record: Battaglia et al. (2008) has I2a-Din among Italians from Trento at 9.4%. Mozart posted the frequency table from this study, you can find it if you go back 2-3 pages on the thread. Should that be too cumbersome for you, here is the link to the full paper for you to check:
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con.../Battaglia.pdf

[Shetop]

Please, Shetop, do us all the favour of acquainting yourself with the basic facts and terminology before posting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia_(Roman_province)

I also recall a recent post of yours where you claimed the Slavs came from Wallachia - which makes perfect sense considering that Wallachia has, for all we know, since Roman times always used a Romanic language and was never slavicised. Finally, you first ask about details about the Goths, which already have been given a few pages further up in great detail and with various maps, and then claim to have known everything and complain about others writing long posts in reply to your repeated questions.
I for my point am still interested in deploring your original argument, that the I2a-Din distribution relates to a single event rather than a longer migration process, in further detail. But the way you are currently presenting yourself here lets me - unfortunately - doubt that you really know what you are talking about.

Just for the record: Battaglia et al. (2008) has I2a-Din among Italians from Trento at 9.4%. Mozart posted the frequency table from this study, you can find it if you go back 2-3 pages on the thread. Should that be too cumbersome for you, here is the link to the full paper for you to check:
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con.../Battaglia.pdf

We learned in our schools that the Balkans is bordered with the Sava river to the North. I think Croatians would confirm this.
And about have Romania ever been slavicised or not, above I gave a link about Sclaveni. If you read it you saw where were Slavs settled before invading Byzantine Empire. Also please, research a bit about Ipotesti-Candesti archaeological culture.
And regarding the Trento 9.4% I have also written my point - I have seen this several years ago. It is just a continuation of what we have in Slovenia today, deserves no special attention. Do you know what is the I2a-Din frequency in the region where city of Ravenna is? I assume you know why am I asking about Ravenna.

I've seen that you are a knowledgeable person, but there are always more details... and I did look into many of them , for the past several years.

[gyms]

Shetop:"I'm just sure they spoke Slavic language."

Great!How do you know that?

[Shetop]

Shetop:"I'm just sure they spoke Slavic language."

Great!How do you know that?

Because there is no other haplogroup in the Balkans which correlates to Slavic languages that good as I2a-Din does today.

[Shetop]

I also recall a recent post of yours where you claimed the Slavs came from Wallachia - which makes perfect sense considering that Wallachia has, for all we know, since Roman times always used a Romanic language and was never slavicised.

It would be strange if you have never seen this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...orical_map.jpg

[Ike]

Ok, what was the language of those Ostrogoths that conquered Rome?

[Nobody1]

Ok, what was the language of those Ostrogoths that conquered Rome?

The Codex Argenteus was written by the Ostrogoths themselves (i.e. Ostrogothic literature) and thus ultimately provides the answer to that question [Answer: Germanic];

And the Ostrogoths/Theoderic did not conquer Rome (not the capitol since the Tetrarchy late 3rd cen AD) they conquered Ravenna (from Odoaker) late 5th cen AD;

[LeBrok]

The Codex Argenteus was written by the Ostrogoths themselves (i.e. Ostrogothic literature) and thus ultimately provides the answer to that question [Answer: Germanic];

And the Ostrogoths/Theoderic did not conquer Rome (not the capitol since the Tetrarchy late 3rd cen AD) they conquered Ravenna (from Odoaker) late 5th cen AD;

I have no idea why people question their Germanic heritage. Every written word they left is Germanic. If they were Slavs why they wrote in Germanic?

There is some possibility that Ostrogoths brought a big contingent of Slavs into Balkans, as mercenaries or allies. The first wave of I2a-Dinaric?

[motzart]

I have no idea why people question their Germanic heritage. Every written word they left is Germanic. If they were Slavs why they wrote in Germanic?

There is some possibility that Ostrogoths brought a big contingent of Slavs into Balkans, as mercenaries or allies. The first wave of I2a-Dinaric?

The Slav theory is weakest and specifically disproved in this Scientific Study http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Barac2003.pdf

There are at least 2 papers that set out to prove I2a Din is paleolithic in the Balkans by explicitly proving that it is NOT slavic.

This is the other one.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...0/1964.long#T2

Whatever I2a Din is or how it spread, it was not because of the Slavic migration. Slavs were an R1a people who filled the void left by the Huns, surely they assimilated some left over I2a Din from previous settlements but it isn't the reason we see it in high frequencies in the Balkans today. I2a Din in the Balkans would have been a Roman speaking people prior to the Slavic invasions. I'd love to hear anything that isn't a re-visitation of the Slavic theory at this point, either that or show me a flaw in the Croatian island paper (GOOD LUCK).

[Nobody1]

I have no idea why people question their Germanic heritage. Every written word they left is Germanic. If they were Slavs why they wrote in Germanic?

There is some possibility that Ostrogoths brought a big contingent of Slavs into Balkans, as mercenaries or allies. The first wave of I2a-Dinaric?

Thats possible;
The Hun-invasion and its aftermath (Attila's death/Nedao 454) left chaos and the major movements (peoples) during the Migration-era (Völkerwanderung) were patched together by a multitude of remnant peoples as noted in example Paul the Deacon (II/XXVI) 'Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind' the other treks were akin to that scenario;

Slavs/Balto-Slavs (Venedae) could have also been a part of the Ostrogoths even before the Huns with the Amaler/Greutungen expansion; During the Migration-era the Rugians joined the Ostrogoths and later even the Bittuguren-Huns joined the Ostrogoths; The Ostrogoths obviously remained as the dominant element amongst the other remnant pops. and kept their Germanic language intact; There were numerous waves of Slavs into the Balkans as a part of the Ostrogoths would just be one of them; What Hg's the Goths/Ostrogoths possessed and manifested into modern pops. will only be known once they will finally test some Ostrogothic corpses (from the various locations); I would not even be surprised if I2a-Din or ancestral I2-P37.2 is Paleolithic/Mesolithic in the Balkans; I wait for the corpses;