How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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Not according to Underhill's study from 2014 - see the chart below (appendix to his 2014 study):

http://s9.postimg.org/7qti4gl8v/Croatia_mainland.png

Croatia_mainland.png


You quoted data from 2013, so Underhill's data is more up-to-date because it's from 2014.

==================================

clintCG - you wrote that there is an "anthropological proof" (do you mean biological anthropology?) that some South Slavs are descended from West Slavs, and other South Slavs from Goths.

But how is it possible considering that North Slavic people (West and East Slavs) and East Germanic people (including Goths) were practically indistinguishable in anthropological terms ???

At least according to this 2008 study by the Institute of Anthropology of the University of Poznan:

http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/pdf/mono/vol012/01piontek.pdf

The Institute (website in English): http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/html/indexe.html



And several anthropological graphs from the same study:








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http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full
 
Well, that is the best place to cross. There are not many places to cross, due to mountains:

Dark red - mountain ranges
Light green - best crossings

Places_to_cross.png


And the Goths didn't cross on their own, but the Romans opened their gates to them (refugees):


the bridge was constructed by the Romans under Trajan and maintained until the goths crossed over it. it was used to aid the fleeing dacians from the goths
 
clint CG said:
Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo writes about one mission of Neretvians in Venetia in 830. : "...Quia a Gothis originem traxerunt", which means "...which are descended from Goths".

That's typical for such sources. Medieval writers often would read ancient historians, see who lived where according to those ancient sources, and then assume that Medieval inhabitants were direct descendants of ancient inhabitants. Adam von Bremen (and many other Medieval historians and chroniclers) wrote for example that West Slavs - including Czechs and Poles - are descendants of Vandals:

"Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sum Wandali; decies maior esse fertur nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quaia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in partem adiecreris Sclavaniae."

Which translates:

"Slavania, the biggest of provinces of Germania, is inhabited by the Winnils, who were formerly called Vandals. It is much bigger than our Saxony, especially when it includes the Czechs and the Poles across the Oder, since they are no different in customs and language".

Some other Medieval sources also claimed that Poles are descendants of Sarmatians and / or Scythians.

According to Alberic of Trois-Fontaines the invasion of Gaul by Vandals and Alans was led by Craco, duke of Cracow:

"413 quaedam pars Vandalorum cum Alanis Gallias infestavit duce Craco qui fuit dux Cracoviae."

Which translates:

"In 413 AD Vandals and Alans led by chief Craco, who was duke of Cracow, were plundering Gaul."

hrvat22 said:
This research for Croatian R1a haplotype is from year 2005

OK, maybe the sample was collected in 2005. But it was tested for subclades in 2014.

At least we know where was this sample collected from (the map from your link shows locations).

How about Rozhansky's sample from 2013 - where in Croatia does it come from ???
 
BTW - someone wrote here, that Goths came from Southern Poland. This is wrong.

If anything, from Northern Poland. Though there are also theories, that not from Poland.
 



How about Rozhansky's sample from 2013 - where in Croatia does it come from ???

These are the latest research for Croats with a sample of about 1100 people...

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-co...database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf


Rozhansky' has its own database for R1a haplotype but there are also data on public DNA projects for R1a....

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ymap
 
BTW - someone wrote here, that Goths came from Southern Poland. This is wrong.
If anything, from Northern Poland. Though there are also theories, that not from Poland.

Nope... Goths did come from Northern Poland, but settled in western Ukraine/southern Poland very early. According to Coon and his work "The Races of Europe" Gothic skeletons from Chersonese region in Crimea are dated very early- from 100 B.C to 100 A.D., then you can imagine how early they came to southern Poland and western Ukraine.

That's typical for such sources. Medieval writers often would read ancient historians, see who lived where according to those ancient sources, and then assume that Medieval inhabitants were direct descendants of ancient inhabitants.

No. Most historians (for example Marko Vego: "Povijest humske zemlje") assume that this particular Venetian used "Historia Salonitana" and "Chronicles of Priest of Duklja" as his sources for claiming Gothic origin of Narentines, and those are not ones that were composed according to ancient historians, but according to folk traditions which tell about Gothic origin.

Those chroniclers are not of foreign origin, like Adam von Bremen is, when he writes about Poles. Those chroniclers are of our (ex-Yu) origin and they tell about our origin, not about someone else's. I doubt there is single Polish chronicler that claims non-Slavic origin of Poles, while there are plenty of YU chroniclers that tell of our Gothic origin, based on folk tradition and not on foreign ancient historians.

Nope. First of all, Croats and Serbs came to the Balkans later than other Slavs (for example Slovenes came before Croats).
As for White Croats and White Serbs (Sorbs) - they share common ancestors with Balkan Serbs and Balkan Croats.
But they did not come to the Balkans from Germany. They split into two groups - one migrated to the Balkans, one to Germany.
Moreover Sorbs in Germany are mixed with other Slavic tribes (Lusatians among others), and so are Serbs in the Balkans.


What you say is OK. However, I challenge you to find any historical source which would prove that Slavs came to Balkans from eastern Slavic lands rather than from western ones- that would explain your theory of I2a Din arrival, which is not the case.

West Slavs are about ~10% I2a-Din, with the concentration increasing as you get closer to the Balkans (Slovaks are ~15% I2a-Din). Far from "practically absent." How much I2a-Din do Germanic peoples have, meanwhile? I'd say "practically absent," outside of places with historic Slavic input.

I'd agree with the summary that I2a-Din migrated into the Balkans from the direction of Poland, rather than directly from Ukraine, by the way. The clines hint at that.


You misunderstood me. I agreed with Tomenable that I2a Din came from western Ukraine/s.Poland to Balkans. But not with Slavs- it was with Goths.

You can not compare hg concentration of modern north and west Germanic peoples with hg conc of ancient east Germanics.
For example, Scandinavians have 1/3 of R1a while other Germanics have almost none. Does it mean that it is not Germanic? No. It just means it is unique for them. Just like I2a Din is common among east Germanic peoples and not common among other Germanic peoples.

The fact that I2a Din concentration is 15 percent in Slovaks does not mean much. It is only because it is so close to Balkans, because Balkan Slavs often settled in other countries to escape Ottomans and their invasion. Hungarians have 16 percent of I2a Din too, and they are not Slavic.
Other west Slavs have significantly lesser I2a Din conc than Slovaks.

Some of you explain things with "pure coincidence" too much.

I already proved that none of eastern Slavs came to Balkans.
Only western Slavs came. And that can not explain so high conc of I2a Din in Dinaric Alps.
If you compare population and I2a Din concs of west Slavs you will see that they, on average, do not have more that 7-8 percent of it.
Let's take your claims that I2a Din was brought by Slavs as right-
And then explain me: was it "pure coincidence" that Herzegovinians and west Montenegrins increased their I2a Din from 7 percent to 70 percent when they got to Balkans, while at same time reducing R1a from 60 percent to 5 percent? No, it is theoretically impossible.
It is also theoretically impossible that I2a Din decreasing and R1a increasing as we head from Dinaric Alps to plains of Yugoslavia is "pure coincidence".
Since Balkan Slavs are descended from west Slavs it is clear that it was not them who are responsible for a huge concentration of I2a Din here.
On other hand it is much more logical that Goths brought it with them from Ukraine, and that small part of them that got enslaved by Huns remained in Ukraine and so we got their 20 percent of I2a Din...

you wrote that there is an "anthropological proof" (do you mean biological anthropology?) that some South Slavs are descended from West Slavs, and other South Slavs from Goths.

But how is it possible considering that North Slavic people (West and East Slavs) and East Germanic people (including Goths) were practically indistinguishable in anthropological terms ???


Comparing skulls and skeletons is much more unreliable than comparing living descendants.
Carleton S. Coon found that Dinaric Alps "Slavs" differ much from other Slavs.
You will find that in greatest work of racial anthropology "The Races of Europe" (1939)
He also found out that many of them are of racial types that are not found in any Slavic people, but that are very frequent among Germanic peoples.

Read this part:
http://theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII12.htm

What he says about Herzegovina Croats:
"The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned in Bosnia; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic and a pre-Turkish racial configuration"

For Montenegrins, as you will see if you read it, he says that they are tallest and heaviest Europeans, and that they differ in many, many traits from your typical Slavs.

Most common racial type in Montenegro is Borreby, which is non-existent in Slavic lands and pretty common in Germanic ones:
troe-map9a.jpg
 
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So when did those Goths come and what language did they speak?
 
You will find that in greatest work of racial anthropology "The Races of Europe" (1939)
This (from 1939 - good year! :O) is not "the greatest work of racial anthropology". It is obsolete by now.

And classifications such as "Borreby", etc., are also obsolete, since they were arbitrarily defined categories.

Why don't you check graphs from the 2008 study that I linked. It is using modern methods:

http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/pdf/mono/vol012/01piontek.pdf

Antropologia_Summ.png


I posted those graphs here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...to-the-Balkans?p=451305&viewfull=1#post451305

And here more about methodology:

http://archeowiesci.pl/2008/11/12/od-kiedy-slowianie-zyja-nad-wisla-i-odra/

Prof. Janusz Piontek made a demographical simulation (...) Thereafter he researched osteological material - examining ancient bones. On this basis he estimated what was the dynamics of demographic developments during the period of Roman influences, and during the early Middle Ages. He compared data concerning Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures and that concerning the early Middle Ages. (...) Piontek's results are consistent with results of research by dr Robert Dąbrowski, who collected rich craniological material from the period of Roman influences and from the early Middle Ages. He used the method of craniological distances of Mahalanobis, as a method taking into account individual skulls (...) It turned out, that skulls of people representing Wielbark, Przeworsk and Chernyakhov cultures were very similar to early Medieval skulls of Western Slavic populations. (...) Similarities were extraordinarily high.

- We anthropologists do not claim, that we are explaining political, historical, and ethnic-cultural transformations. - said prof. Piontek (...)

Because some of Polish anthropologists and even archaeologists question the possibility of researching genetic similarities between human populations based on craniological and odontological features (comparing skulls, bones and teeth), prof. Piontek presented examples from recent global literature which debunk their assertions. He cited several specific examples from literature on the subject, concerning analyses of ethnogenesis based on nonmetrical features - performed by scientists from Japan. Also commonly accepted are studies on teeth, in order to prove or disprove morphological continuity of population in time - for example research by prof. Joel irish concerning the continuity/discontinuity of settlement in Egypt. Piontek proved that standards he used in his studies on ethnogenesis of Slavs are in agreement with standards accepted today in the scientific world. (...)

- Lack of intergroup differences between populations from times of Roman influences and later West Slavic populations, in terms of craniological and odontological features, testifies to the similar genetic structure of both populations - prof. Piontek finished his lecture.
 
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You can not compare hg concentration of modern north and west Germanic peoples with hg conc of ancient east Germanics.
For example, Scandinavians have 1/3 of R1a while other Germanics have almost none. Does it mean that it is not Germanic? No. It just means it is unique for them. Just like I2a Din is common among east Germanic peoples and not common among other Germanic peoples.

If we don't have ancient samples, the best we have are contemporary populations. I absolutely expect East Germanic peoples to have had different haplogroup concentrations than modern North and West Germanic peoples, but I find it highly unlikely that their dominant haplogroup would be effectively absent (outside of areas with Slavic input) in the way that I2a-Din is among modern North and West Germanic peoples. R1a isn't comparable to I2a-Din here. It does range in concentration among Germanic peoples from something like 5% (England/Netherlands) to something like 25% (Norway/Iceland) but it never drops off completely. Unlike I2a-Din, R1a (specifically subclades like L664 and Z284) absolutely looks like it could be common to Germanic peoples.
 
This (from 1939 - good year! :O) is not "the greatest work of racial anthropology". It is obsolete by now.

And classifications such as "Borreby", etc., are also obsolete, since they were
arbitrarily defined categories.

Why don't you check graphs from the 2008 study that I linked. It is using modern methods

Obsolete? How come?
Racial anthropology has been drastically politicized since the end of world war, and since then anthropologists began stopping with any racial classifications defining it as "racist" and denying existence of subracial types in Europe.
One of best anthropologists of his time came and determined that in this area, in many cases people are much closer to Germanic than to Slavic racial types. For example you can just compare statures of European people and notice similarity there as well.

And to be honest that study you posted does not prove nothing. It just proves similarity (to some extent) between peoples of Wielbark and Chernyakov cultures. And to claim that Wielbark culture is east Germanic and Chernyakov Slavic is utter nonsense. There were lots of Goths in Chernyakov area also- they reached Crimea in 1st century A.D and possibly even before, so it is no wonder that people from those two cultures are similar- both were inhabited by Goths. Only later one was inhabited by some Slavs and Dacians as well.

If we don't have ancient samples, the best we have are contemporary populations. I absolutely expect East Germanic peoples to have had different haplogroup concentrations than modern North and West Germanic peoples, but I find it highly unlikely that their dominant haplogroup would be effectively absent (outside of areas with Slavic input) in the way that I2a-Din is among modern North and West Germanic peoples. R1a isn't comparable to I2a-Din here. It does range in concentration among Germanic peoples from something like 5% (England/Netherlands) to something like 25% (Norway/Iceland) but it never drops off completely. Unlike I2a-Din, R1a (specifically subclades like L664 and Z284) absolutely looks like it could be common to Germanic peoples.

I do not think we can compare these two cases. Goths (and other east Germanics) split from others much, much earlier. As I said there was Gothic presence in Ukraine even in 1st century B.C, and they came from northern Poland. I don't want to claim that Goths didn't come from Scandinavia- since all Germanic peoples eventually came from there, but I would not place their arrival from Scandinavia to continental Europe sooner than 400 B.C.
On other hand- Germanic ancestors of Englishmen, Angles and Saxons, came to England from Denmark much later, in 5th century, so it is perfectly normal that they have some Germanic R1a (in their case 4.5%, and keep in mind that some might be of Slavic origin as well) like Scandinavians do.
Other Germanic peoples, for example Germans have practically none of Germanic R1a (Z284 and similar), and their R1a comes from Slavic sources.
So I think R1a and I2a Din are comparable when it comes to majority of Germanic peoples.
 
What you say is OK. However, I challenge you to find any historical source which would prove that Slavs came to Balkans from eastern Slavic lands rather than from western ones- that would explain your theory of I2a Din arrival, which is not the case.

All sources I have read say that the first wave of Slavs came from eastern Slavic lands, across Romania. Coming from western Slavic lands would mean going right across territories inhabited until year 568 AD by Langobards and Gepids - Austria, Hungary & southern Moravia. Moreover, we have a precise description of the area inhabited by Slavs in Byzantine neighbourhood around year 500 AD. Procopius (VII: 14, 30) wrote that they lived north of the Danube. Jordanes (V: 30-37) provided even more details, as he wrote (V: 34-35):

"(34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart."

Marek Dulnicz, "The Lombard Headman Called Ildigis and the Slavs" (in English), identifies those geographical locations as follows:

http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_en/autoren.php?name=Dulinicz,+Marek

Slavs_500_AD.png


1) Noviodunum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum_(castra)


2) lake Mursianus:

"Lake Mursianus was in fact, according to the majority of researchers, the vast marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube; (...) the lake or marshes in question might have extended as far as to the juncture of the Tisza and the Danube. The lake’s name was derived from the town of Mursa (present-day Osijek)."

3) Danaster = Dniester river

4) Danaper = Dnieper river

5) "Alps" = Carpathians

Source of the Vistula is located close to the present-day Bielsko-Biała: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielsko-Biała

And "the curve of the sea of Pontus [Black Sea]" was the coastline (which forms a nice curve) in the region of present-day Odessa.

Basing on that info I made a map showing the extent of Slavs in 500 AD (or rather 2 of their 3 branches - Sclaveni and Antes):

As described by Jordanes & Procopius:

Slavs_500_AD_b.png


Let's also add - because this is important - that both the Sclaveni and the Antes migrated to the Balkans together.

One of maps I posted before shows that (it shows areas were those groups lived mixed before crossing the Danube).

It was - more or less - this area:

Slavs_500_AD_c.png
 
And to be honest that study you posted does not prove nothing. It just proves similarity (to some extent) between peoples of Wielbark and Chernyakov cultures. And to claim that Wielbark culture is east Germanic and Chernyakov Slavic is utter nonsense. There were lots of Goths in Chernyakov area also- they reached Crimea in 1st century A.D and possibly even before, so it is no wonder that people from those two cultures are similar- both were inhabited by Goths. Only later one was inhabited by some Slavs and Dacians as well.

Well, check that post again - I counted both Wielbark and Chernyakov cultures as Gothic (and Przeworsk culture as Vandal).

But that study shows that Wielbark / Chernyakov / Przeworsk were all similar to Slavic populations who lived in later times.

There was closer similarity between North Slavic and East Germanic people, than between East Germanic and West/North Germanic.

Each of those populations perhaps absorbed different Non-IE substrates, but East Germanics and North Slavs absorbed similar substrates. And also they had a common IE origin, there was even a proto Balto-Slavo-Germanic language according to some researchers.
 
Now some excerpts about Slavic invasion of the Balkans (they did not move in as "peaceful farmers", contrary to what some users claimed):

Procopius, Book V, XXVII, 134:

"(...) This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks. (...)"

Procopius about Slavic invaders capturing and enslavic a lot of Romans:

Procopius, Book VII, XIII - describing events in year 545 AD:

"(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sklavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either took as prisoners or killed (...)"


Procopius about Roman attempts to stop the Slavic invasion:

"(...) the Empire wasn't able to find just one only man just as brave to undertake this task. (...)"

Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy from year 599:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic peninsula through Istria. (...)"

And according to Priscus of Panium, in 610 Slavic tribes flooded into Greece.

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Nay further, they [the Slavs] do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In more or less the same time [549 - 550] a Slavic army (...) gathered itself together and after crossing without encountering any resistance from anyone the river Ister [Danube], and later with similar ease the river Heuros, it divided itself for two parts. (...) Commanders of Roman garrisons in Illyria and Thrace fought against both those parts and even though they had already separated from each other, the Romans suffered - contrary to their expectations - a defeat, and some of them fell dead on the spot, while others found salvation in escaping. (...) After all garrisons had suffered such defeats at the hands of either one or the other one of barbarian armies, one of enemy bands fought against troops of Asbados. He was a member of Emperor Justinian's personal guard (...) and he led a numerous and elite force of cavalry, which had been garrisoned for a long time inside the Thracian stronghold of Tdzurulon. But also they were forced to retreat by the Slavs and most of them, shamefully escaping, got slaughtered, while Asbados himself was captured and temporarily left alive, but soon after that the Slavs skinned him alive and threw him into a burning campfire. After that the Slavs were plundering all neighbouring Thracian and Illyrian lands without any obstacles and both of their two units captured many strongholds. (...) And those who had defeated Asbados, later plundered in turn everything up to the sea coast, and captured in an assault the coastal city of Toperus (...) And they slaughtered 25,000 men, plundered everything, and enslaved all the children and all the women. (...)"

John of Ephesus:

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

Menander Protector:

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"


Strategikon of Maurice:

"(...) They do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

Jordanes:

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Belisarius was eager to capture alive one of the men of note among the enemy, in order that he might learn what the reason might be why the barbarians were holding out in their desperate situation. And Valerian promised readily to perform such a service for him. For there were some men in his command, he said, from the nation of the Sklaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their native haunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th century Sephardic Jewish traveller from Muslim Spain):

"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"

=================================

And here about the arrival of the Croats (but it was much later - not during the 500s, but during the 600s):

Constantine Porphyrogennetos, "De Administrando Imperio":

"(...) their ancestors were Pagan Croats and Serbs, known also as White [Croats and Serbs]. Great Croatia, called also White [Croatia], until today is still Pagan, just like neighbouring [Lusatian / West Slavic] Serbs [Sorbs] (...)"

And another excerpt - "De Administrando Imperio":

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possesson of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

=====================
=====================

However, I would agree with you that large part of ancestry of South Slavs comes from Pre-Slavic inhabitants.

This seems to be confirmed by the way how Slavs treated captives and prisoners of war - they often allowed them to join their communities.

As Strategikon of Maurice wrote:

"(...) They [Slavs] do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

And now let's quote "Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries", by Łukasz M. Stanaszek:

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_(44)-nB-s205-212.pdf

Slavs.png


However, there are considerable differences in pigmentation between various South Slavs.

The most dark-pigmented are probably Bulgarians - apparently the most strongly hybridised (haplogroup frequencies of Bulgarians confirm this).
 
Now some excerpts about Slavic invasion of the Balkans (they did not move in as "peaceful farmers", contrary to what some users claimed):

Procopius, Book V, XXVII, 134:

"(...) This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who [Sclaveni and Antae] are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks. (...)"

Procopius about Slavic invaders capturing and enslavic a lot of Romans:

Procopius, Book VII, XIII - describing events in year 545 AD:

"(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sklavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either took as prisoners or killed (...)"

Procopius about Roman attempts to stop the Slavic invasion:

"(...) the Empire wasn't able to find just one only man just as brave to undertake this task. (...)"

Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy from year 599:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic peninsula through Istria.(...)"

And according to Priscus of Panium, in 610 Slavic tribes flooded into Greece.

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Nay further, they [the Slavs] do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In more or less the same time [549 - 550] a Slavic army (...) gathered itself together and after crossing without encountering any resistance from anyone the river Ister [Danube], and later with similar ease the river Heuros, it divided itself for two parts. (...) Commanders of Roman garrisons in Illyria and Thrace fought against both those parts and even though they had already separated from each other, the Romans suffered - contrary to their expectations - a defeat, and some of them fell dead on the spot, while others found salvation in escaping. (...) After all garrisons had suffered such defeats at the hands of either one or the other one of barbarian armies, one of enemy bands fought against troops of Asbados. He was a member of Emperor Justinian's personal guard (...) and he led a numerous and elite force of cavalry, which had been garrisoned for a long time inside the Thracian stronghold of Tdzurulon. But also they were forced to retreat by the Slavs and most of them, shamefully escaping, got slaughtered, while Asbados himself was captured and temporarily left alive, but soon after that the Slavs skinned him alive and threw him into a burning campfire. After that the Slavs were plundering all neighbouring Thracian and Illyrian lands without any obstacles and both of their two units captured many strongholds. (...) And those who had defeated Asbados, later plundered in turn everything up to the sea coast, and captured in an assault the coastal city of Toperus (...) And they slaughtered 25,000 men, plundered everything, and enslaved all the children and all the women. (...)"

John of Ephesus:

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

Menander Protector:

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"


Strategikon of Maurice:

"(...) They [Slavs] do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

Jordanes:

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...)"


Procopius of Caesarea (about squatting Slavs):

"(...) Belisarius was eager to capture alive one of the men of note among the enemy, in order that he might learn what the reason might be why the barbarians were holding out in their desperate situation. And Valerian promised readily to perform such a service for him. For there were some men in his command, he said, from the nation of the Sklaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their native haunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th century Sephardic Jewish traveller from Muslim Spain):

"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"

=================================

And here about the arrival of the Croats (but it was much later - not during the 500s, but during the 600s):

Constantine Porphyrogennetos, "De Administrando Imperio":

"(...) their ancestors were Pagan Croats and Serbs, known also as White [Croats and Serbs]. Great Croatia, called also White [Croatia], until today is still Pagan, just like neighbouring [Lusatian / West Slavic] Serbs [Sorbs] (...)"

And another excerpt - "De Administrando Imperio":

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in control of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

=====================
=====================

However, I would agree with you that large part of ancestry of South Slavs comes from Pre-Slavic inhabitants.

This seems to be confirmed by the way how Slavs treated captives and prisoners of war - they often allowed them to join their communities.

As Strategikon of Maurice wrote:

"(...) They [Slavs] do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

And now let's quote "Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries", by Łukasz M. Stanaszek:

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_(44)-nB-s205-212.pdf

"Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries", by Łukasz M. Stanaszek.

I. Byzantine sources:

1. Procopius of Caesarea (6th century):

- "(...) Valerian chose one of the Sklaveni who are men of mighty stature. (...)"

- "(...) Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. (...)"

2. Theophilact Simokatta (describing events from year 595):

"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe, he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"

3. Theophanes the Confessor (describing the same event from year 595):

"(...) The Emperor was admiring their beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)"

4. Pseudo-Maurice (Strategikon) - late 6th century / early 7th century:

"(...) Tribes of Sclaveni and Antes (...) are very resistant to hardships, they easily endure both heat and cold, rain and lack of garment. (...)"

5. Constantine Porphyrogennetos, "De Administrando Imperio":

About ancestors of Balkan Croats and ancestors of Balkan Serbs:

"(...) their ancestors were Pagan Croats and Serbs, known also as White [Croats and Serbs]. Great Croatia, called also White [Croatia], until today is still Pagan, just like neighbouring [Lusatian / West Slavic] Serbs [Sorbs] (...)"

II. Muslim and Sephardi Jewish sources:

6. Al-Baladuri (late 7th century):

"(...) Slavs are a tribe of ruddy complexion and fair hair. (...)"

7. Ibn Qutajba (describing events from years 691 - 694):

"(...) If only Prince wanted, outside of his doors would be black Sudanians or ruddy Slavs (...)"

The same information is repeated also by 8. Al-Baladuri (9th century).

9. Al-Ahtal (late 7th century):

"(...) Birds of the desert saw in those people a crowd of fair-haired Slavs. (...)"

10. Jaqut (13th century, but using much older primary sources):

"(...) Slavs are a tribe of ruddy complexion and fair hair. (...)"

11. Ibn Al-Kalbi (late 8th century / early 9th century):

"(...) Slavs are a numerous nation, fair-haired and of ruddy [pink] complexion. (...)"

12. Al-Gahiz (early 9th century):

"(...) Among Slavs, abominable and ugly are their smoothness of hair [as opposed to curly hair] and delicateness, as well as blond or ruddy colour of their hair and beards, and also whiteness [bright blond colour] of their eyelashes (...)"

Al-Gahiz:

"(...) Tell me friend, after how many generations a Zang became black, and a Slav became white? (...)"

13. Abraham ben Jacob (years 965 - 966):

"(...) What is peculiar [when it comes to Slavs], most of Bojema people [Bohemians / Czechs] are of swarthy complexion and dark hair, while fair colors are rare among them [compared to frequencies among other West and East Slavs]. (...)"

Abraham ben Jacob:

"(...) Slavic people are often haunted by two diseases (...) these are two types of rash: redness and abscess (...)"

14. Ibn Al-Faqih (10th century):

"(...) There exist two kinds of Slavic people. First kind are people of swarthy complexion and dark hair. They live near the coast of the [Mediterranean] Sea. The other kind are fair people, who live inland. (...)"

Ibn Al-Faqih:

"(...) Inhabitants of Iraq are people (...) who are not born with hair colour intermediate between russet, blond, matt-white and white [bright blond], as it happens among children born from Slavic women. (...) People of Iraq are free from russet hair colour of Slavs. (...)"

15. Al-Masudi (10th century):

He writes that dominant complexion among Slavic people is fair, not dark.

III. German sources:

15. Saint Bruno of Querfurt:

He wrote that in Poland having a beard is a common custom among men.

Chart.png


http://s4.postimg.org/i64k6ay25/Slavs.png

Slavs.png


However, there are considerable differences in pigmentation between various South Slavs.

The most dark-pigmented are probably Bulgarians - apparently the most strongly hybridised ones.

Later during times of the Bulgar Empire, Bulgars were also settling Byzantine prisoners in their lands.

===============================================

I do not exclude the possibility, that some of South Slavs mixed with Goths (who had been there before Slavs came).

However - not much seems to indicate, that this particular haplogroup (I2a-Din) is Gothic. It seems more Slavic.

Mayber both Slavs and Goths had that haplogroup already before coming to the Balkans ??? Let's wait for ancient DNA.

===============================================

As for the Avars:

Menander Protector:

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs [but 100,000 of just warriors, or men+women+children?] broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars [to ask them for help against the Slavs!]. (...)"

Indeed, the Avars initially became allies of the Romans against the Slavs! Only later - after defeating (and subjugating) some Slavic tribes, and negotiating peace with some other ones - the Avars turned against their former allies (the Romans) and - together with the Slavs - started attacking the Empire.

Moreover, the combined Avar-Slavic (or rather Slavic-Avar) army, often commited very nasty things - including expulsions of local populations.

The Avars all fought as horsemen (they had no native Avar infantry!) - they would move in front of the advancing invasion force, plunder settlements, remove the local population, and Slavs (mostly infantry, but some horsemen too) followed with their families, and settled the deserted ("cleansed") land.

This is also an answer to question asked by Maciamo "what happened to local pre-Slavic inhabitants?". In some regions, the locals were assimilated by Slavs. But in some other regions, the area was ethnically cleansed by Avars (with help of Slavs), and Slavs settled empty territory. Maybe founder effects took place in such areas (it depends whether the number of colonists in those deserted areas was large - it could be small and not genetically average / representative).
 
Let's also remember that most of early Slavs practiced polygamy and were rather sexually liberated (according to the article below) - which is probably why some Slavic tribes later preferred to get decimated in fights against crusaders than accept Christianity (I'm talking here about certain Pagan Slavic tribes in East Germany).

Article in question: http://slowianolubia.blogspot.com/2013/09/kultura-seksualna-sowian.html

A Muslim source - "Kitab al-mamalik wal--masalik" ("The book of roads and countries") - wrote that among Slavs pre-marital sex was something normal, even though after marriage women had to be faithful to their husbands (so before marriage they could have sex with anyone they wanted, but after marriage only one partner).

Those facts mentioned above - together with "democratic" behaviour (early Slavs were democratic - chieftains were being elected by all free men, and only in times of war), such as allowing slaves (captives, prisoners of war) to join their communities as free man (see: Strategikon of Maurice) - contributed to hybridisation.

By contrast it seems that most of Germanic tribes were monogamic (this is what Tacitus claimed in "Germania"). Only high-ranking nobles had many wifes. In case of Slavs every man could have many wifes, so they would take foreign women en masse, which made differentiation of Slavic phenotypes and hybridisation faster.

Perhaps word "slaves" comes from "Slavs" because Slavs were on a large scale incorporating slaves (captives / prisoners of war) into their communities.

If some citizen of the Roman Empire was enslaved by Slavs, and later they allowed him to join them, then he was becoming one of them.

This also explains why Slavs were so successful in spreading their language. By contrast Franks, Lombards, Goths, etc. assimilated into Romance-speaking locals.

=================
=================

PS:

Just as an off-topic sidenote:

Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th century Sephardic Jewish traveller from Muslim Spain):

"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"

This "internal discord and lack of unity" is SOOO true, even today. :) Just look what Yugoslavians did to each other - war, genocides, religious hatred...

This particular thing did not change between the 10th and the 20th / 21st centuries... :)

Slavic tribes in what is now East Germany (belonging to ethnic groups of Veleti, Obotrites, Rujani, Sorbs) were also conquered because of internal discord.

==================================

they did not move in as "peaceful farmers", contrary to what some users claim

Peter Heather in "Empires and Barbarians" also admits violent character of Slavic migration into the Balkans.

BTW - "peaceful farmers" would not have a god of war who rides a white horse as their main deity (or one of main deities):

http://www.gregorkarnas.com/onephoto/2012/2012_01_19/index.htm

Svyatovit (this representation is a 9th-century (or even older) sculpture made of limestone from Podolia, so called Zbruch Idol, found in 1848):

http://epika.org/house-of-mythology/17-svetovid

Svetovid is the Slavic god of war, fertility and abundance. He is four-headed war god. Svetovid's four heads stand for the four sides of the world that this all-seeing god is looking at. His attributes are a sword, a bridle, a saddle, and a white horse. (...)

fot_G_Karnas_Swietowit_ze_Zbrucza_1.jpg


fot_G_Karnas_Swietowit_ze_Zbrucza_2.jpg


fot_G_Karnas_Swietowit_ze_Zbrucza_3.jpg


wiatowid_ze_Zbrucza.jpg
Posag_Ze_Zbrucza.jpg


This sculpture was found at the bottom of a river (Zbruch River), where it spent several centuries (up to even 1000 years).

Water probably damaged it during that time. On the other hand, you shouldn't expect Michelangelo's skills from 9th century people.
 
Jordanes (6th century AD):

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (...)"
LeBrok in another thread posted a nice map showing the situation in year 125 AD (2nd century AD):

http://postimg.org/image/tbsbpd6l7/full/

Barbaricum_125_AD.png
 
Listen...
That area you refer where Slavs came from was inhabited by Slavs for long time. In my language it is called "Vlach plain" (Vlaška nizija), don't know what is English name, but it is basically area around Bulgaria north of Danube.


That is where Slavic tribes lived for a long time, and then Avars came in somewhere around 560 and Slavs accepted their rule. For a whole century they lived there and jumped over to Balkan just for raiding, and only after siege of Constantinople in 626 those Slavs started to settle over Danube.
Keep in mind that those Slavs can only be ancestors of Bulgarians, but not of Yugoslavians. Yugoslavians came from west Slavic lands.
Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy from year 599:
"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic peninsula through Istria.(...)"


You say it right here. Slavs from western lands started moving in long after Gepids fell.


Slavs also lived much more westward than the source of Vistula you mentioned.
I already posted maps of white Croatia and Serbia. Toponyms of Slavic origin in Montenegro are found in Elbe region of northeastern Germany, around 800 toponyms in total. (From book "Odakle su došli preci Crnogoraca", Dr. Radoslav Rotković)

polablje_mapa2.gif



You can use Berlin as navigation point (in lower right corner of map).




I think it is clear that no ancestors of Slavic Croats, Serbs, and Montenegrins came from eastern Slavic lands.


Even if some of them came from there, as you say, there is no way that such a large quantity was brought by Slavs. Ukraine has only around 13 percent of I2a (not only Din but also other groups), and it has massive amount of R1a, while Herzegovina Croats and west Montenegrins have only around 6 percent of R1a and around 70 percent of I2a1b "Dinaric". It is much more logical that I2a Din in Ukraine (I guess around 10 percent) would be mostly from Gothic leftovers.


Keep in mind that when your sources say that Croats settled in Dalmatia, they actually mean Roman province of Dalmatia (not only modern coastal Croatia), which also includes parts of northern Croatia and Bosnia where Slavs settled.

LeBrok in another thread posted a nice map showing the situation in year 125 AD (2nd century AD):
As I already said by that time many Goths already reached Ukraine.



Also I think that your accounts of Avars and Slavs doing ethnic cleansing are little bit overexaggerated. If you ever saw Dinarides, Herzegovina or Montenegro, you would see that it is impossible to conquer anyone living in those mountains, and I don't think Slavs would even look to settle there too (because land is totally unsuitable for farming). Montenegro was not even conquered single time in 500 years it was surronded by Ottomans, even Pushkin made a poem about how Napoleon tried to do same but failed.


And about anthropology: we can not learn much from Arab sources. From their point of view all Europeans were of tall stature, for example.
Let's look at tallest Europeans and their statures:
Dinaric Alps residents are tallest with measured 184.6 cm average on 17-year old boys (Pineau et al, 2005).
Nations:
1.Montenegrins 183-184+ (Bjelica D et al)
2.Dutch 183+ (there is one study in which they are taller than Montenegrins, but it is not measured, it is self-reported, also in TRoE by Coon Dutch are 171, Montenegrins 177).
3.Sweden, around 182


Now lets look at average heights in some of Slavic lands other than southern ones:
Russia 176, Poland 178.5, Slovakia 179.4, Czech 180.3, Ukraine 176


Europeans are on average tall, but Germanic peoples are slightly taller than others, with Montenegrin (Coon: 177cm)-Herzegovina (same:175cm) populations holding record. http://theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII12.htm



Tomenable, if you are interested in historical and cultural connections between Dinaric population and Germanics please send me PM and I will gladly reply you with some of material because I do not intend on posting it publicly on forum (I need it for some other purposes).

Best Regards
 
Yugoslavians came from west Slavic lands.

I discussed the history of Slovenes with several Slovenes, and they told me that most of Slovenes came from east Slavic lands.

They quoted sources.

They wrote that there were two migrations to Slovenia - first (earlier) from East Slavic lands. Second (later) from West Slavic.

But first was more numerous, according to their source.

only after siege of Constantinople in 626 those Slavs started to settle over Danube.

This is incorrect.

John of Ephesus (see above) clearly wrote that they started to settle over Danube already in the 2nd half of the 500s. Also Procopius (VII, 40,7) indicates that Slavs who were plundering the Balkans in 545 - 551, penetrated as far as eastern Bosnia, and - as archaeological evidence suggests - settled there (see: Barisic 1969, Cremosnik 1970). Also around the same time (ca. 550) other groups of Slavs settled in Lower and Upper Moesia and Little Scythia - Procopius wrote that they settled for example in the regions of castles of Ulmetum and Adina (including those castles). Archaeological evidence fully supports this as well (see: Cankova-Petkova 1970 and Comsa 1974). So Slavs started to settled over Danube already in the middle of the 6th century, or 75 years earlier than you claimed.

===========================

And let's quote John of Ephesus (he wrote this in year 584):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Ephesus

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin [or abdication? - abdication was 574, death 578], during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

And Menander Protector (he wrote also in the 580s or 590s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_Protector

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)


There was Justin I (died 527), after that Justinian (died 565) and Justin II (died 578), succeeded by Tiberius already in 574 (since Justin II became insane):

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/308817/Justin-II

In 571 the part of Armenia governed by Persia revolted and requested assistance from the Byzantine Empire. In the late summer of the following year, Justin’s forces invaded Persia. The Persians, however, not only repulsed the Byzantines but themselves invaded Byzantine territory, capturing a number of important cities, including Dara, which fell in November 573. After learning of the fall of Dara, Justin became insane, and in 574 the empress Sophia, acting on his behalf, entered into peace negotiations. Induced by Sophia to adopt as his son the general Tiberius, Justin conferred on him the title of caesar in December 574. Thereafter, Justin, although nominally still emperor, lived in retirement until his death.

The the third after the death of Justin was 580 (John of Ephesus).

The fourth year of reign of Tiberius was 578 (Menander Protector).

So around that time - 578 to 580 - there was another major influx of Slavs over Danube, and they settled - John of Ephesus is clear about this.
 
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Europeans are on average tall, but Germanic peoples are slightly taller than others

Slavs, Balts, Baltic Finns, and Germanics are taller than others - not just Germanics.

This is confirmed by Byzantine (not just Arab) sources describing Slavs as well:

Procopius of Caesarea (born in ca. 490 died in 565), "De Bello Gothico":

"(...)Nay further, the Slavs do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

Theofylaktos Simokattes, "Oikumenike Historia" (written in years 585 - 641), describing events from 595:

"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe, he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of Slavs, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"

Theophanes the Confessor (describing the same event from 595):

"(...) The Emperor was admiring their beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)"

Countries/regions with above 178 cm tall males (on average) according to wikipedia - no data was given for Latvia, Belarus and Ukraine:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...Finnic-peoples-are-the-tallest-peoples/page2&

While Russia's average (176 cm in year 1992) includes Asian minorities in Russia:

There is also one mistake in this graph - data for Dinaric Alps is from Croatia and Herzegovina (from a 2005 study), not from Bosnia and Slovenia. The average was also less than 185,6 cm, but authors added one centimeter because the sample consisted of young men (some could be still growing).

Tallest_nations.png


Height = genes + nutrition. Nutrition is important too - therefore with genes being equal, richer (with better nutrition) country will have taller people.
 

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