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to link I2a " illyrian" or even the name Illyrian , with anything to do with anything Albanian is a major error ..............IF we are to link I2a with anything Illyrian, it would be with the Bosnians.Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
Why so ???to link " illyrian" or even the name Illyrian , with anything to do with anything Albanian is a major error
Albanians are not descendants of all Illyrians, but they can be descendants of one of Illyrian-speaking tribes.
The markers as per the map shows to me the original "Illyrian" markers...........no E or J foundT
The oldest I1 (and the only one from Stone Ages) comes from that archaeological site of the LBKT culture:
Eupedia says:
So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.
which tribe,? the one the fled from the other illyrian tribes in the north and merged with Epirote and Macedonian tribes in northern Albania............yes they did become a dominate tribe but it was mostly a coastal tribe.
My take is Albanian where resettled in modern Albania by the Romans.......these Albanians fled from scythian and Samaritan pressure in the southern Carpathian mountains. basically sitting north of the dacians.
There is NO evidence in any Roman historian prior to 150AD of any Albanians in Albania...............the Romans took this area in 196BC from the Macedonians
I personally believe that they are a Thracian tribe of some sort. Genetics seem to point to this. Either that or they are related to the Thracians in some way.
I find (for now) easier to imagine Slavic and Baltic languages emerged from a common satem language spoken in the western steppes by a population dominated numerically by Y-R1a bearers, imponing themselves upon a Y-N1 dominated population near the Baltic, and upon a post-Tripolje population, variated but rich of Y-I2a1a Din in N-W Ukraina (close to the North Carpathians), themselves heirs of older highlands old forms of Y-I2a1a stayed there a long time as HGs on the mergins of the Neolithic people -
I wait some deep clades of Y-I2a1a of Dalmatia to be sure of the way taken by the ancestors of these later ones in Yugoslavia: only "slavic" clades or more local and older ones?
No, dude. What you had said is utterly stupid. As simple as that.
Multiple LOLs. You probably don't even know what that means.You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you. Ms. Marika on her second page states "Though not an expert of Historical and Comparative Indo-European linguistics myself" and that is how far I read that link.
I didn't even watch that video. You first sentence in that post is so low on intelligence, that it discouraged me to read that paragraph further.You dismiss the video of a linguist that deals with Indo-European languages for an amateur. Get real!
So, now it's understood ?!?!?!??! What the hell was this then?That Armenian shares features with Greek, Albanian and other Indo-Europeans languages is understood.
Smells like троллинг.
One new meticulously scientific research suggests that Albanian is the closest to Indo-Iranian languages (for example Indo-Iranian languages are Baluchi, Persian, etc. and Kashmiri, Hindi, etc).
It is interesting that Armenian is something further in comparison to the Indo-Iranian in terms of connections with Albanian.
If it is true Albanian could formed somewhere in today Caucasus region, South Russia, Eastern Anatolia or maybe Northern Iran or further east but we will see next scientific studies.
According this (if it is true), it is probably that carriers of R1b-ht35, J2 and maybe R1a haplogroups are creators original Albanian language (E-V13 is probably much later entered in Albanian substrate).
Dacian, Thracian, Balto-Slavic and Latin are much later influences, and they are "corrupted" original Albanian.
You know,if Slavic speaking people bearing I2-din South have migrated to ex-Yugo,how come I2-din South is found at high percentages in Serbians,Montenegrins,Bosnians,Croatians and is not found even in significant percentages to other people?
Also,why I2-din South is found in ex-Yugo people,but not in Bulgarians,neither in Greeks?
If it supposed that Bulgarians migrated in same time with ex-Yugos,how come this difference?
It is quite not probable that a massive migration of people took place,but the place from where they left do not have any I2-din South left,neither they left any I2-din South on the migration route they went.
Bulgarians are having I2-din North,same about the I2-din from Greece,so rather seems these I2-din North bearers moved from North of Danube to South of Danube.
So I think I2-din South rather formed in Balkan mountains.
As for I2-din North,which is present at Bulgarians and Greeks,how it got there,this would be a different discussion.
mihaitzateo:So I think I2-din South rather formed in Balkan mountains.
As for I2-din North,which is present at Bulgarians and Greeks,how it got there,this would be a different discussion.
...din North and din South is not valid designation anymore.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
Oh lol,really?
I2-din North and I2-din South are just known now under different names,but the genetic reality,is same.
Romanians,Ukrainians,Poles,Bulgarians,Greeks have a kind of I2-din,while Croats,Bosnians,Serbians,Montenegrins have a different kind of I2-din.
The maximum percentage of I2-din previously known as I2-din North is in Romania,maximum percentage of I2-din previously known as I2-din South have the maximum in Bosnia.
This genetic reality raises a lot of question marks about the known "Slavic migration".
While in the case of Bulgaria,it stands as true,Slavs came from North,settled in Bulgaria,it does not stands as true in the case of Serbians,Bosnians,Croats and Montenegrins.
Those Slavs who moved to ex-Yugo should have carried different paternal lines than what it was previously known as I2-din South.
I am curios what kind of I2-din is present in Austria and Hungary.
I suppose that in Hungary there is I2-din North,while in Austria,mostly I2-din South,because lots of ex-Yugos were encouraged to move to Austria,from Serbia,Croatia etc,to escape Ottoman rule(what is written in Italic I am not sure of it,remember that I have read somewhere about it,but could not find it anymore).
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results
Lol, can you post this "new meticulously scientific research" so we can all have a look at them, and see what you are blabbering about?
Where have I suggested that I2a is Illyrian, or are you just bored and felt the need to quote me? "even the name Illyrian, with anything to do with Albanians is a major error" go tell that to countless serious linguists and historians, my amateur friend.
You can read more. This is research of scientists from New Zealand, scientists used computational methods. I will open new thread when I have time.
Lol point us to this "study"
Do not underestimate the serious scientists who publish in reputable scientific international journals. Science progresses and empty platitudes mean nothing. I told I will set new thread, it is not for this thread.
You silly person, the epicentre of Illyrians tribes are in Croatia and Bosnia and NOT in the south of Albania or the North of Austria
The illyrian revolt of 9BC against Rome was in the epicentre
Lol,what I2-din has to do with Illyrians?
Already wrote here,I2-din North highest concentration (and I think highest diversity) is in North Moldavia,in Romania.
As for I2-din South highest concentration is in Bosnia.
I know that in Neamt county from Romania there is about 40% I2-din.
If it proves that in Neamt county is highest concentration of I2-din from Romania and already knowing that this I2-din is I2-din North and taking the name of the place,Neamt = German I think it becomes clear from where I2-din North came,from some Germanic people.
Already written is quite unlikely that this I2-din would have come with Slavs,because both I2-din branches have maximum in mountains.
And I do not think is linked with Goths either,since Goths were not mountain loving people,but to some mountain Germans.
People who likes mountains and are Germanic speakers are usually West Germanic speakers.
An interesting point! How did I miss this contribution?
Perhaps a coincidence, but my family (Slovak) for as long as my family tree goes, are from the border region along the River Morava (Gajary)... and they are all Z16971 positive (A815 negative).
FrankN,
If you associate I2a-Din with the Heruli, show me why there is no I2a-Din in Scandinavia:
"(...) According to Procopius, many Heruli migrated back to Scandinavia and settled beside the North Germanic Geats (Gautoi). The places where they are assumed to have resettled have been identified with Värmland or the provinces of Blekinge and Värend, two districts where women had equal rights of inheritance with their brothers. Some noble Swedish families in the area claim to be descendants of the returning Heruli. Such identifications are not widely accepted. It has been suggested that it was Heruli who first colonized Iceland[3] or were assimilated among the people of Uppland initiating the drastic changes there in the 6th century.[4] (...)"
Large part of the Heruli migrated to Scandinavia - and why didn't they bring I2a-Din there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neam%C8%9B
The Neamț citadel, whose documentary attestation dates back to February 2, 1395, was also erected during the same consolidation period of the Moldovian pricipate east of the Carpathians. The Princely Court of Piatra Neamț is mentioned for the first time in a document dated April 20, 1491, to have been founded between 1468 and 1475, under Stephen the Great, the Princely Cathedral being built in 1497-1498, and the 20 m (65.62 ft) tall Bell Tower in 1499.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova
Due to its strategic location on a route between Asia and Europe, the territory of modern Moldova was invaded many times in late antiquity and early Middle Ages, including by Goths, Huns, Avars, Bulgarians, Magyars, Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols and Tatars.The Principality of Moldavia, established in 1359, was bounded by the Carpathian Mountains in the west, Dniester river in the east, and Danube River and Black Sea to the south. Its territory comprised the present-day territory of the Republic of Moldova, the eastern eight of the 41 counties of Romania, and the Chernivtsi Oblast and Budjak region of Ukraine. Like the present-day republic and Romania's north-eastern region, it was known to the locals as Moldova. Moldavia was invaded repeatedly by Crimean Tatars and, since the 15th century, by the Turks. In 1538, the principality became a tributary to the Ottoman Empire, but it retained internal and partial external autonomy.[
...
Doku
Someone can thinks that more times repeated construction (untruth) can become true. But no.
Nations are not biological entities, nations are social constructions.
This applies of course and for the Balkans, as for world generally.
State boundaries have changed over times.
In this map is Serbia 1282-1321 (orange is Bosnia, green is Hungary, yellow is Bulgaria, and in the lower part of map in lilac colour is Byzantine).
What this map tell us?
Where are Serbia and Bosnia in this map there is today the largest concentration of I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983.
Of course borders have changed
In that time Serbs were Orthodox and Roman Catholic, and Bosnians had religious pluralism, Bosnian church has dominated that considered as heretical by both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox hierarchies.
Serbia had significantly strengthened and expanded its territory, but later, after the Battle of Kosovo in 1389 we all know what happened with the arrival of the Turks, where the Serbian medieval state destroyed.
It took many centuries to change things.
In the meantime there has been a significant change in religious population these areas.
Orthodox church in these areas (and in these areas carriers of haplogroup I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983 are dominated) was losing believers, orthodox Serbs converted to other religions.
In XIX century a lot of these areas came under rule of Austria Hungary.
This century is century of creating and integrating modern nations.
In these areas dominant factor for creating nations was religious.
Believers of Eastern Orthodox were Serbs, believers of Islam were Bosniacs. It is interesting there were Serbian and Bosnian Roman Catholic but over time they became Croats with creating a modern Croat nation.
So many carriers of haplogroup I2a1b2a1a3 A356/16983, Serbs and Bosnias, became Croats, not by origin, but by faith.
And it is normal, nation is not biological but social construction.
...
For integrating in modern nation Croats had big problem. One part of Croats had kajkavian language or dialect. This language is close to Slovenian.
From Wikipedia:
The Kajkavian dialect /kaɪˈkaːviən/ (Kajkavian noun: kajkavščina; Shtokavian adjective: kajkavski [kǎjkaʋskiː],[2] noun: kajkavica or kajkavština [kajkǎːʋʃtina])[3] is a dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language spoken by Croats in Central Croatia,[4] Gorski Kotar[5] and northern Istria.[note 1][6][7] It has low mutual intelligibility with the Shtokavian dialect upon which Croatia's standard language is based.[8][9] Some notable linguists consider Kajkavian to be a language of its own.[10] As of 2015, Literary Kajkavian has a separate language ISO 639-3 code – kjv. Active attempts are being made by some organizations to widen its recognition and status, which has thus far included introduction of school subjects in Kajkavian in some parts of Croatia as well as the creation of the aforementioned ISO code.[11]
The term Kajkavian stems from the interrogative pronoun kaj (what). The other main dialects of Serbo-Croatian also derive their name from their reflex of the interrogative pronoun.[12][13] However, the pronouns are only general pointers and do not serve as actual identifiers of the respective dialects. Certain Kajkavian dialects use the interrogative pronoun ča, the one that is usually used in the Chakavian dialect. The pronouns these dialects are named after are merely the most common one in that dialect.
Outside of Croatia, the dialect is also spoken in Austrian Burgenland and a number of enclaves in Hungary (along the Austrian and Croatian border), and Romania.[14] Although speakers of Kajkavian are Croats, and Kajkavian is as such also considered a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, its closest relative is the Slovene language, followed by Chakavian and then Shtokavian. Kajkavian is part of a dialect continuum with both Slovene and Chakavian.[15]
Another part of Croatian spoked Chakavian language or dialect.
From Wikipedia:
Chakavian or Čakavian /tʃaːˈkaːviən/ (Serbo-Croatian: čakavski [tʃǎːkaʋskiː],[2] proper name: čakavica or čakavština [tʃakǎːʋʃtina],[3] own name: čokovski, čakavski, čekavski) is a dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language spoken by a minority of Croats. It has low mutual intelligibility with the Shtokavian dialect.[4] There is much internal diversity, to the point where intelligibility between the northern and southern varieties of Chakavian is low.[4] All three main Serbo-Croatian dialects are named after their word for "what?", which in Čakavian is ča or ca. Chakavian is spoken mainly in the northeastern Adriatic: in Istria, Kvarner Gulf, in most Adriatic islands, and in the interior valley of Gacka, more sporadically in the Dalmatian littoral and central Croatia.
Chakavian was the basis for the first literary standard of the Croats. Today, it is spoken almost entirely within Croatia's borders, apart from the Burgenland Croats in Austria and Hungary and a few villages in Slovenia.
...
But Croats have adopted the Shtokavian dialect, spoken in today's Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montengro and in parts of todays Croatia.
Shtokavian or Štokavian (/ʃtɒˈkaːviən/; Serbo-Croatian: štokavski / штокавски, pronounced [ʃtǒːkaʋskiː])[2] is the prestige dialect of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian language, and the basis of its Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, and Montenegrin standards.[3] It is a part of the South Slavic dialect continuum.[4][5] Its name comes from the form for the interrogatory pronoun for "what" in Western Shtokavian, što (it is šta in Eastern Shtokavian). This is in contrast to the Kajkavian and Chakavian dialects (kaj and ča also meaning "what").
...
In the picture is territorial display these languages/dialects in today's Croatia.
...
Knowledge of haplogroups reveals interesting picture.
Kajkavian language/dialect is quite coincide with haplogroup R1a ecpacially M458:
...
On the other hand shtokavian language/dialect is quite coincide with haplogroup I2a Dyn S, I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983.
And the conclusion can be drawn, those who speak a dialect of the Shtokavian language/dialect (Serbs, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Montenegrins, and some parts of Croatia) are the real I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983 carriers.
...
If I2a Dyn S Gothic? I don't believe, and I wrote about it (but who knows).
Here I will say about big irony of nationalists.
Some Serbian nationalists thought that Serbs are mostly R1a, but no. Serbs are mostly Old European and Balcanic.
Some Croat nationalists thought that Croats are German, but no. Kajkavian Croats are mostly R1a (mostly M458 closest to Chzecs).
According R1a people Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina are closest (again people who speak shtokavian).
What if I2a Dyn S is Ghotic?
It means that shtokavian people Serbs and Bosniacs are descedents of Goths, it is logic.
Well,I have remembered that after Roman Empire conquered Dacia it brought colonists from Austria and Gaul,in conquered land.
So if there is also I2-din found in Austria,maybe those colonists brought were carrying I2-din?
The land of Dacia was also including today Serbia and Montenegro.
"I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago".
The sudden expansion may have been the result of the Mongol invasion.They changed the ethnic makeup of Eastern Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
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