Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum

View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

Voters
228. You may not vote on this poll
  • Paleolithic continuity

    100 43.86%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    9 3.95%
  • Sea Peoples

    3 1.32%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.63%
  • The Slavs

    90 39.47%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    20 8.77%
Page 44 of 70 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast
Results 1,076 to 1,100 of 1750

Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1076
    Kurgan Kurgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-08-14
    Location
    Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
    Age
    52
    Posts
    17

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a (SNP: Z16971+)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7c3

    Ethnic group
    central European
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    I'm certain this study has been discussed at length:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2014/10/...ehistoric.html

    What has blown me away is the oldest sample:



    The oldest neolithic sample KO1 (5650-5780) is a dark haired blue eyed man with I2a and "Armenian" mDNA R3.

    Hmmm...

    "Interestingly, haplogroup I reaches very high frequency in Sardinians (40.7%), specifically the I2a1a sub-haplogroup, which is virtually absent elsewhere. Haplogroup I was probably introduced there [Hungary] during the Neolithic by farmers with a Mesolithic paternal ancestry".

    "All of the male neoliths (4) have either Y haplogroup I2a or C6, generally considered to be pre-neolithic."

    "
    What is surprising is that one KO1 Neolithic European is with the hunter-gatherers (top of the plot). At some level you would expect to find some hunter-gatherers in the earliest Neolithic communities in Europe as Europe wasn't empty land when the early farmers showed up. And KO1 appears one of those guys, "caught in the act" of first contact between the two groups."

  2. #1077
    Regular Member Jason Neuharth's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-15
    Location
    Bloomfield, New Mexico, United States
    Posts
    39

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-M223 I-Z171+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16a

    Ethnic group
    Pan-European
    Country: USA - New Mexico



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So there are several threads, all recently active, where the focus of the conversation has turned to (often passionate) discussions about how I2a1b1a-Din, the most common Haplogroup I subclade in the Balkans, got to the Balkans. But we seem far from reaching consensus on this forum, so here's a poll to at least put our finger to the wind regarding the direction this forum is leaning.

    I've included as options several different possibilities I've read:

    Paleolithic continuity: I2a-Din has been in the Balkans since the Paleolithic, and present distribution outside of the Balkans is the result of migrations out of it. There is direct geographic continuity for this clade from Gravettian culture and/or the Balkans Ice Age refuge. Proponents point out the age of Haplogroup I and the frequency distribution of I2a-Din. I've read Maciamo articulate this view, but I'm not sure if he still holds it.

    The Early Indo-Europeans: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Indo-European migrations. It was part of the "original" collection of Y-DNA of Indo-Europeans. Proponents point out that everywhere that Haplogroup I is dominant nowadays speaks an IE language. How yes no was fond of this theory for a while.

    Sea Peoples: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by seafaring groups not otherwise mentioned in this poll. The migration happened before history or early in history. Proponents point to the frequency distribution and the lack of historical verification for later migrations. How yes no explored this idea, and recently Pyrub has advocated it.

    The Sarmatians: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Sarmatians. Proponents of this view cite the STR dating estimate for the clade, the apparent Asian spillover of it, and the historical attestation to Sarmatians (but not Slavs) in the Balkans. Bodin has been the most vocal advocate of this theory here.

    The Slavs: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by expanding Slavs in the 1st millennium CE. Proponents cite the age of the clade, expert STR diversity analysis by people like Nordtvedt and Verenich, and dispute that history doesn't verify the Slavic expansions. I have supported this view, as have a few other posters.

    If you believe that multiple expansions resulted in the current I2a-Din distribution in the Balkans, indicate which you feel brought most or had the greatest impact. If you feel that the data is deficient, make your best educated guess.
    I would say the Natufians. In Between Paleolithic C1 haplogroup and The Early Indo-Europeans R1 Haplogroup.

  3. #1078
    Forced to be australian
    Join Date
    04-06-13
    Location
    from shkodra working in australia
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    e1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    m78

    Ethnic group
    albanian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm personally somewhat wary of any attempts of racial classification (since the concept of 'race' is in itself rather flawed), but I would like to add something on the origin of the Albanian language: the first and foremost is that Albanian is obviously an Indo-European language and that today, it represents it's own branch amongst the language family. The general consensus is also that Albanian is descended from one of the so-called Paleo-Balkan languages (eg. Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian, etc.), but which of these was the ancestor of Albanian is contested. The problem is that all of these languages are rather scarcely attested, whereas Albanian literature itself is only attested from the 14th century onward. This means it's very difficult to connect Albanian with a specific Paleo Balkan language with absolute certainty.
    Its hard but if you take a look at the pre indo european words we have you will be amazed of how much influence we have from proto balkans,Myself i belive we are Thracians their was tomb in bulgaria that was pulled up this year an tested the bodys.It is a possitve match with albanians their is few ev-13 mutations but this result is the same mutation of gheg albanians.The old dna sampled of the thracians tombs have revealed they have got it wrong.Anyway,I suppose dna dont lie.I belive i2a2 was bought with the mass slavnic migration an i belive it was more eastern europe than of balkan.

  4. #1079
    Regular Member ThirdTerm's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-16
    Posts
    166


    Country: Russian Federation



    Paleolithic continuity: I2a-Din has been in the Balkans since the Paleolithic, and present distribution outside of the Balkans is the result of migrations out of it. There is direct geographic continuity for this clade from Gravettian culture and/or the Balkans Ice Age refuge. Proponents point out the age of Haplogroup I and the frequency distribution of I2a-Din. I've read Maciamo articulate this view, but I'm not sure if he still holds it.

    The Early Indo-Europeans: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Indo-European migrations. It was part of the "original" collection of Y-DNA of Indo-Europeans. Proponents point out that everywhere that Haplogroup I is dominant nowadays speaks an IE language. How yes no was fond of this theory for a while.
    I think it's a combination of the two factors. I2a-L621 is closely associated with Slavic speakers with R1a and it was most likely to be introduced to the Balkans by Indo-European migrants to the region. On the other hand, a 13,000-year-old Cro-Magnon from Switzerland belonged to Y-DNA Haplogroup I2a. I2 is a southern branch of Haplogroup I which was widely dispersed around Europe, while the I1 branch largely remained in Scandinavia. I2a2 is associated with the pre-Celto-Germanic people concentrated in northern Germany. The Balkans was possibly another major EHG settlement with the highest concentration of I2 in Europe (over 50%) and this demographic trend was reinforced by further IE migrations to the region. Moreover, Sardinia is an I2a refuge (41%) and mass R1b migrations to southern Europe may have pushed the I2a people downward to Sardinia.
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 25-03-16 at 00:45.

  5. #1080
    Regular Member Dinarid's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-05-16
    Location
    Islamic-occupied Croatian Herzegovina
    Posts
    413

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    I realize this topic has been untouch for months by now, but I have to contribute. I believe that I2a is both Slavic and indigenous Dinaric. I2a could have been that ancient Croats left the Balkans for Ukraine, and then migrated back southwest. Western Ukrainians have high frequencies of I2a, and many Ukrainian last names common in the west are supposed to be from the White Croats. Also the Cucuteni-Trypillians were I2 and located near the origin of the Slavs.

    On the other hand, most of southern Europe would have been I2 before the Indo-Europeans, and it is hard to imagine what would have been there before R1a, R1b, J1, J2, E1b1b, etc. except for maybe some small amount of G in certain areas. I think we need to do more tests and research into what subclades of I2a1b came from when and just more tests for South Slavs, Vlachs, Gheg Albanians, etc. in particular.

  6. #1081
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    I realize this topic has been untouch for months by now, but I have to contribute. I believe that I2a is both Slavic and indigenous Dinaric. I2a could have been that ancient Croats left the Balkans for Ukraine, and then migrated back southwest. Western Ukrainians have high frequencies of I2a, and many Ukrainian last names common in the west are supposed to be from the White Croats. Also the Cucuteni-Trypillians were I2 and located near the origin of the Slavs.

    On the other hand, most of southern Europe would have been I2 before the Indo-Europeans, and it is hard to imagine what would have been there before R1a, R1b, J1, J2, E1b1b, etc. except for maybe some small amount of G in certain areas. I think we need to do more tests and research into what subclades of I2a1b came from when and just more tests for South Slavs, Vlachs, Gheg Albanians, etc. in particular.
    Then cast your vote here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...polye)-culture
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  7. #1082
    Regular Member Dinarid's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-05-16
    Location
    Islamic-occupied Croatian Herzegovina
    Posts
    413

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Thanks, I didn't see that.

  8. #1083
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    13-06-16
    Posts
    1


    Country: Italy



    Why the Croats are blonde and the slovenian are black hair if they all descend from Sclaveni?

  9. #1084
    Regular Member Dinarid's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-05-16
    Location
    Islamic-occupied Croatian Herzegovina
    Posts
    413

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    I have actually seen more blond Slovenes and dark-haired Croats… at least there are very few blond-haired Herzegovinians (Bosnian Croats). We aren't necessarily descendants of the Sclaveni because there was another tribe; the Antes, and together they became Slavs. Also R1a in Croatia is only found at high frequencies in Slavonia where the most conservative elements of Slavic culture are found.

  10. #1085
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    774


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    I have actually seen more blond Slovenes and dark-haired Croats… at least there are very few blond-haired Herzegovinians (Bosnian Croats). We aren't necessarily descendants of the Sclaveni because there was another tribe; the Antes, and together they became Slavs. Also R1a in Croatia is only found at high frequencies in Slavonia where the most conservative elements of Slavic culture are found.
    There was Avars,Bulgars and many others.

    https://books.google.se/books?id=9lH...insula&f=false

  11. #1086
    Regular Member Dinarid's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-05-16
    Location
    Islamic-occupied Croatian Herzegovina
    Posts
    413

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    There was Avars,Bulgars and many others.

    https://books.google.se/books?id=9lH...insula&f=false
    Who, the Slavonians?

  12. #1087
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    774


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    Who, the Slavonians?
    The Avars were a Turkic group (or possibly Mongol[15]), possibly with a ruling core derived from the Rouran that escaped the Göktürks. They entered Pannonia in the 7th century AD, forcing the Lombards to flee to Italy. They continuously raided the Balkans, contributing to the general decline of the area that had begun centuries earlier. After their unsuccessful siege on Constantinople in 626, they limited themselves to Pannonia. They ruled over the Pannonian Slavs that had already inhabited the region. By the 10th century, the Avar confederacy collapsed due to internal conflicts, Frankish and Slavic attacks. The remnant Avars were subsequently absorbed by the Slavs and Magyars.
    The Bulgars, a people of Central Asia, most believed Turko-Altaian and Indo-Arian.[citation needed] The major Bulgar wave commenced with the arrival of Asparuh's Bulgars. Asparuh was one of Kubrat's, the Great Khan, successors. They had occupied the fertile plains of the Ukraine for several centuries until the Khazars swept their confederation in the 660s and triggered their further migration. One part of them — under the leadership of Asparuh — headed southwest and settled in the 670s in present-day Bessarabia. In 680 AD they invaded Moesia and Dobrudja and formed a confederation with the local Slavic tribes who had migrated there a century earlier. After suffering a defeat at the hands of Bulgars and Slavs, the Byzantine Empire recognised the sovereignty of Asparuh's Khanate in a subsequent treaty signed in 681 AD. The same year is usually regarded as the year of the establishment of Bulgaria (see History of Bulgaria). A smaller group of Bulgars under Khan Kouber settled almost simultaneously in the Pelagonian plain in western Macedonia after spending some time in Panonia. Some Bulgars actually entered Europe earlier with the Huns. After the disintegration of the Hunnic Empire the Bulgars dispersed mostly to eastern Europé.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans

  13. #1088
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    581


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The Avars were a Turkic group (or possibly Mongol[15]), possibly with a ruling core derived from the Rouran that escaped the Göktürks. They entered Pannonia in the 7th century AD, forcing the Lombards to flee to Italy. They continuously raided the Balkans, contributing to the general decline of the area that had begun centuries earlier. After their unsuccessful siege on Constantinople in 626, they limited themselves to Pannonia. They ruled over the Pannonian Slavs that had already inhabited the region. By the 10th century, the Avar confederacy collapsed due to internal conflicts, Frankish and Slavic attacks. The remnant Avars were subsequently absorbed by the Slavs and Magyars.
    The Bulgars, a people of Central Asia, most believed Turko-Altaian and Indo-Arian.[citation needed] The major Bulgar wave commenced with the arrival of Asparuh's Bulgars. Asparuh was one of Kubrat's, the Great Khan, successors. They had occupied the fertile plains of the Ukraine for several centuries until the Khazars swept their confederation in the 660s and triggered their further migration. One part of them — under the leadership of Asparuh — headed southwest and settled in the 670s in present-day Bessarabia. In 680 AD they invaded Moesia and Dobrudja and formed a confederation with the local Slavic tribes who had migrated there a century earlier. After suffering a defeat at the hands of Bulgars and Slavs, the Byzantine Empire recognised the sovereignty of Asparuh's Khanate in a subsequent treaty signed in 681 AD. The same year is usually regarded as the year of the establishment of Bulgaria (see History of Bulgaria). A smaller group of Bulgars under Khan Kouber settled almost simultaneously in the Pelagonian plain in western Macedonia after spending some time in Panonia. Some Bulgars actually entered Europe earlier with the Huns. After the disintegration of the Hunnic Empire the Bulgars dispersed mostly to eastern Europé.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
    There is at least one text that considers Balkan Avars part of the 'Sclavenic' nations. (De administrando imperio)

  14. #1089
    Regular Member Dinarid's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-05-16
    Location
    Islamic-occupied Croatian Herzegovina
    Posts
    413

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The Avars were a Turkic group (or possibly Mongol[15]), possibly with a ruling core derived from the Rouran that escaped the Göktürks. They entered Pannonia in the 7th century AD, forcing the Lombards to flee to Italy. They continuously raided the Balkans, contributing to the general decline of the area that had begun centuries earlier. After their unsuccessful siege on Constantinople in 626, they limited themselves to Pannonia. They ruled over the Pannonian Slavs that had already inhabited the region. By the 10th century, the Avar confederacy collapsed due to internal conflicts, Frankish and Slavic attacks. The remnant Avars were subsequently absorbed by the Slavs and Magyars.
    The Bulgars, a people of Central Asia, most believed Turko-Altaian and Indo-Arian.[citation needed] The major Bulgar wave commenced with the arrival of Asparuh's Bulgars. Asparuh was one of Kubrat's, the Great Khan, successors. They had occupied the fertile plains of the Ukraine for several centuries until the Khazars swept their confederation in the 660s and triggered their further migration. One part of them — under the leadership of Asparuh — headed southwest and settled in the 670s in present-day Bessarabia. In 680 AD they invaded Moesia and Dobrudja and formed a confederation with the local Slavic tribes who had migrated there a century earlier. After suffering a defeat at the hands of Bulgars and Slavs, the Byzantine Empire recognised the sovereignty of Asparuh's Khanate in a subsequent treaty signed in 681 AD. The same year is usually regarded as the year of the establishment of Bulgaria (see History of Bulgaria). A smaller group of Bulgars under Khan Kouber settled almost simultaneously in the Pelagonian plain in western Macedonia after spending some time in Panonia. Some Bulgars actually entered Europe earlier with the Huns. After the disintegration of the Hunnic Empire the Bulgars dispersed mostly to eastern Europé.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
    So are you saying that they were responsible for the R1a? According to Wikipedia, Modern Avar men have only 1.7-2.4% R1a, and I fail to see how they would be different from the ancient population.

  15. #1090
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    52


    Ethnic group
    Croat
    Country: Croatia



    It's pre-Slavic, but it most likely came to Balkans with Slavic migrations.

    There are no ancient findings of Dinaric-type I2 in southeastern Europe, yet. I would expect ancient Illyrians ans Thracians mainly carried haplogroups found in modern Albanians, rather than I2.

    High frequencies of I2 among Romanians can be explained by Slavic settlements in Dacia, since they used Church Slavonic and had heavy Slav influenced-vocabulary, until linguistic purifications of 20th century.

  16. #1091
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    52


    Ethnic group
    Croat
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    There is at least one text that considers Balkan Avars part of the 'Sclavenic' nations. (De administrando imperio)
    There are no ''Balkan Avars'' , as Avars settled mainly in Carpathian Basin.

    They were most likely Turkic, mixed with Slavs and other peoples too, just like Huns.

    Ohter than that, they weren't bilogically or ethnically Slavic for sure.

  17. #1092
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    581


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    There are no ''Balkan Avars'' , as Avars settled mainly in Carpathian Basin.

    They were most likely Turkic, mixed with Slavs and other peoples too, just like Huns.

    Ohter than that, they weren't bilogically or ethnically Slavic for sure.
    I said 'Balkan Avars' to differentiate them from Caucasian Avars who speak a North-East Caucasian language. Others use terms like 'Pannonian Avars'.

    In the text I mentioned a group called Avars is located near Danube (east of Dalmatia most likely) and are labeled as a 'Sclavenic nation'. Τhey expelled the Roman settlers of Dalmatia who were settled there by Diocletian and most of them were expelled from there by the Croats, That's the story in the text.

    ἔθνη Σκλαβήνικα ἄοπλα ὄντα, ἅτινα καὶἌβαροι ἐκαλοῦντο.
    It makes sense that they were Turkic. And it's likely that he called them 'Sclavenic' because when he wrote the text they had already been slavicized. Some have argued that he used Croat sources. The Avars who had remained there were a minority and it makes sense that they would have adopted the language of the majority.

    I find annoying taking things for granted though.

  18. #1093
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    52


    Ethnic group
    Croat
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I said 'Balkan Avars' to differentiate them from Caucasian Avars who speak a North-East Caucasian language. Others use terms like 'Pannonian Avars'.

    In the text I mentioned a group called Avars is located near Danube (east of Dalmatia most likely) and are labeled as a 'Sclavenic nation'. Τhey expelled the Roman settlers of Dalmatia who were settled there by Diocletian and most of them were expelled from there by the Croats, That's the story in the text.



    It makes sense that they were Turkic. And it's likely that he called them 'Sclavenic' because when he wrote the text they had already been slavicized. Some have argued that he used Croat sources. The Avars who had remained there were a minority and it makes sense that they would have adopted the language of the majority.

    I find annoying taking things for granted though.
    Alright, but we have to take Byzantine sources with reserve, as many appear to be hisorically not completely accurate.

    Avars were allied with Slavs, but we can't know what the ratio of Avars to Slavs was. Possibly there were many Slavs, as Avars Khaganate later dissapeared and people couldn't have. Yet in countries like Hungary we find low frequencies of East Eurasian haplogroups, while R1a is frequent. I think remaining Avars (those that weren't exterminated by Croats or Franks ) assimilated in Panonnian populations, but they weren't originally Avar to begin with.

    Avars could have been another mainly Slav group, led by Turkic elite. Yet the ''originals'' are definitelly not Slavic.

    Their rampage in Dalmatia was short lasting, as well. The terrain did not fit horse riding group like them, and later they (and their unknown Slavic allies) were conquered by incoming Croats. According to sources Croats allowed defeated Avars to live and assimilate with them, but probably their numbers were so small they didn't seriously influence Croat ethnogenesis .

  19. #1094
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    For the Avars there is theories they were Iranic too,no written work survive.Taking in consideration they were steppe people and constantly on the move they could have spoken any language that was used as "lingua franca" at that time in the steppe.
    But in the Avar kingdom later on Slavic becomed lingua franca and the spoken language.
    For the Avar settlement i doubt they settled in the mountainous Balkans,that's why they choosed Pannonia which is extented steppe and suitable for their horses with pastures,they weren't sailors we know that they ordered the Sclavenes to make them ships and with combined force together with Persians besieged Constantinople.

  20. #1095
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,960

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    I know also about That,
    Avars were Iranian linguistic relatives,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  21. #1096
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Alright, but we have to take Byzantine sources with reserve, as many appear to be hisorically not completely accurate.

    Avars were allied with Slavs, but we can't know what the ratio of Avars to Slavs was. Possibly there were many Slavs, as Avars Khaganate later dissapeared and people couldn't have. Yet in countries like Hungary we find low frequencies of East Eurasian haplogroups, while R1a is frequent. I think remaining Avars (those that weren't exterminated by Croats or Franks ) assimilated in Panonnian populations, but they weren't originally Avar to begin with.

    Avars could have been another mainly Slav group, led by Turkic elite. Yet the ''originals'' are definitelly not Slavic.

    Their rampage in Dalmatia was short lasting, as well. The terrain did not fit horse riding group like them, and later they (and their unknown Slavic allies) were conquered by incoming Croats. According to sources Croats allowed defeated Avars to live and assimilate with them, but probably their numbers were so small they didn't seriously influence Croat ethnogenesis .
    Croats appear as Avar enemies in the texts.
    The narative later Constantine Porphyrogenitus is talking about that emperor Heraclius granted some land to Serbs or Croats,could be connected in fact with this alliances between them,anyway their migration is considered to have taken place right in this period.
    The empire at the time of the siege.

  22. #1097
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    699


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Croats appear as Avar enemies in the texts.
    The narative later Constantine Porphyrogenitus is talking about that emperor Heraclius granted some land to Serbs or Croats,could be connected in fact with this alliances between them,anyway their migration is considered to have taken place right in this period.
    You have Genetics and prove this, part with Serbs, you can not..

    How can Serbians come as allies at same time, from same place and frome same Croatian ancestor when Porfirogenet claims that Serbs came from somewhere else to Greece and from Greece in part of Dalmatia...People with these genetic path do not exist..

    Logical explanation for this is that they come as Croats, which are divided and become this or that..

  23. #1098
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    52


    Ethnic group
    Croat
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    You have Genetics and prove this, part with Serbs, you can not..

    How can Serbians come as allies at same time, from same place and frome same Croatian ancestor when Porfirogenet claims that Serbs came from somewhere else to Greece and from Greece in part of Dalmatia...People with these genetic path do not exist..

    Logical explanation for this is that they come as Croats, which are divided and become this or that..
    It's ridiculous to claim Serbs came from Croats as everything points they were two closely related tribes living next to each other somwhere in Central Europe.

    Proto-Croat and Proto-Serbs probably had similar haplogroup variety upon southern migrations.
    To claim Byzantine sources as completely accurate now in 21st century, is pretty bold.

  24. #1099
    Banned
    Join Date
    08-07-16
    Posts
    89


    Country: USA - Louisiana



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have debated this before on the Eupedia genetics comment board; in particular pages for Haplogroup I2 and sometimes R1a; and to my conclusion it is likely that Haplogroup I2 is an archaic Slavic lineage.


    I also have a (premature) theory that Slavs may actually be the Dacians or Thracians. (or related) Which would explain why Yugoslavs carry more I2 at a higher frequency than other Slavs (R1a); just like their Romanian neighbors.

    My theory is that the Yugoslavs are the more archaic Slavic people. Despite what Albanian nationalists may tell you; there is more evidence, conclusive to me, at least; that Albanians are nothing more than a Black-Sea people. And there was no Slavic invasion in 6 AD. (It could be; that Slavs are Dacians or Thracians, or related. Which would explain why both tribes and languages went extinct around these centuries; while the Slavic people were first written about during 5th or 6th AD.)

  25. #1100
    Banned
    Join Date
    08-07-16
    Posts
    89


    Country: USA - Louisiana



    1 members found this post helpful.
    In other words; I am suggesting that other Slavs, especially Western Slavs (Polish and Sorbians) may actually be Indo-Iranians that carry a high abundance of R1a. (this also may be the case with other R1a carrying Eastern Europeans - such as the Hungarians (Ugric) and even the Balts.

    (If you ever get the chance; notice how Serbia has only 15% of R1a but is totally abundant in I2a. Same with Bosnians and Croats. While on the contrary; it seems that the Polish and Sorbs lack haplogroup I2a2 at a large frequency, which is very odd.)


    There is also a tons load of historical evidence of a Scythian (Sarmatian and other Indo-Iranian) migration into the Carpathians. Some based on (mostly) Greco-Roman sources.

    Another thing to consider is the high abundance of R1a and other haplogroups in Hungary; while it also lacks N1c abundance and Hungarians speak a Uralic tongue. Which >>> seems to suggest Hungary is a crossroads nation. Kind of like France or Italy.)

    Am I suggesting that Western Slavs are actually Scythians (Indo-Iranians) that speak a Slavic language? And the Hungarians (Ugrics) are too -- Yes I am.

    This hypothesis may also explain why traces of Indo-Iranian are found today in Hungarian culture. Such as the extinct Jassic (Ossetian) language: the Jassic dialect and Jassic language.

    --

    On the other hand; based on genetic and historical research ... the Albanians show more evidence with being from the East. (Caucasus and Anatolia) which seems to suggest they may be a Black Sea peoples. Could it be, perhaps Albanians are from Anatolia (or at least) relatives to the Phrygians? This would suggest the Albanians are not indigenous to the Balkans' and the Slavic peoples have more merit/evidence of longer habitation. << The only con to this theory is that Albanian is a satem language while Greek and Armenian are centum; and there seems to be little to no evidence of Anatolian or Illyrian either being centum or satem.
    Last edited by Korbyn; 08-07-16 at 12:13. Reason: Additional thoughts, information

Page 44 of 70 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 56
    Last Post: 02-10-17, 17:44
  2. Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 107
    Last Post: 06-03-15, 14:23
  3. Reconstructing the Balkans
    By Duo in forum EU politics & government
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 04:09
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-10-11, 07:47
  5. Media freedom in the balkans
    By Elias2 in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-05-11, 15:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •