How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Angela]

I would advise newer members to read large portions of this thread. It's very long, and some of it was written before the newest genetic discoveries, so perhaps starting around page 22 might be a good idea. It's all there.

These are also good threads.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Bosnians

I would also just suggest that on this site no one is very interested in wild speculation. If you have no data to support your positions or if what your are saying is in direct opposition to the data, no one is going to take your positions seriously or be persuaded by them.

[Angela]

Couldn't agree more. Apparently what people fail to realize is that Albanians carry E-V13 at an enormous amount, because as stated before; they have bred very high for the last century; after independence from the Ottoman Empire. They are merely homogeneous, which is why E-V13 is so high. Not because they are indigenous.

The Kosovars have more E-V13 but the samples are too small to be conclusive. (less than 50-100 samples taken from Kosovar men? And most were E-V13? How is this proof of anything? 1,000 Kosovar Albanian samples would be more defined, and E-V13 would probably dwindle down to average to below average, in the Balkans. Maybe even Serbs or Bulgarians would surpass them in E-V13 frequency. I would not at all, be surprised.)

The precursor to E-V13 has been in southeastern Europe since the mid-to-late Neolithic. Analysis of it shows a large expansion in the Bronze Age. That has been known for years. That is "proof" that the possession of it by the Albanians is not proof of recent arrival from West Asia. There is in fact no "proof" of their recent arrival from West Asia. Any insistence upon such ludicrous propaganda is ********, and I take a very dim view of that. I hate to have to put on my moderator hat, but please be advised. There is no place here for that kind of thing.

[Korbyn]

The precursor to E-V13 has been in southeastern Europe since the mid-to-late Neolithic. Analysis of it shows a large expansion in the Bronze Age. That has been known for years. That is "proof" that the possession of it by the Albanians is not proof of recent arrival from West Asia. There is in fact no "proof" of their recent arrival from West Asia. Any insistence upon such ludicrous propaganda is ********, and I take a very dim view of that. I hate to have to put on my moderator hat, but please be advised. There is no place here for that kind of thing.

Why? As I stated before; while it may be true that E-V13 is ancient to the region of the Balkans; it still does not explain the abundance of E-V13 in neighboring Balkanic countries. Such as the higher than average frequency in the Balkans seen in Greeks and Bulgarians, correlating with the Albanian peak.

If anything, it only shows (to me, at least) that Albanians may have assimilated these E-V13 peoples and they became Albanian, if my theory so-far is correct. Just like E-V13 peoples became assimilated Greeks; E-V13 peoples became Southern Slavs. Or even Romanians; and so on.

A very good Basque anthropologist and friend of mine; found sources and came up with a theory that Etruscans may have been indigenous to Italy, before the Romans and Greeks settled there:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...-italians.html

That would be a new twist to the origins of Etruscans; if this theory were true. I hate to jump forward with speculations; but maybe indigenous Italians, Balkan peoples and Anatolians originally spoke Tyrsenian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages

[Angela]

None of you are Ukrainians, much less northern Slavs, and none of you are Armenians/Georgians either. You're a hybrid. The sooner you all accept it, the better for the rest of Europe.

[Korbyn]

None of you are Ukrainians, much less northern Slavs, and none of you are Armenians/Georgians either. You're a hybrid. The sooner you all accept it, the better for the rest of Europe.

What is this post insinuating? That the Slavic people are evil Barbarian monsters? I have heard that one all before, and it's a tired theory. So is the theory that Illyrians are Albanians. (everyone seems to jump on these theoretical bandwagons, which lack evidence and may not even be true.)

If anyone is turning people into monsters, it's the people who blame Southern Slavs if you ask me. If Albanians are indigenous to the region; how come the Greeks have not noticed them since the 14th century? Did they overlook these small people? How could the Greeks, if they had been there since pre-history? That's very un-Greek of them. There are loads of questions to ask about Albanians. And to me, there is proof stacked more against them that they are recent rather than indigenous. The Dinaric I2 found in Slavs being "younger" does not suggest anything to me at all. What it does suggest is that it is just exactly that: a recent mutation.


Also, even the Greeks would and have admitted this, but the Romans have been responsible for more innocent killings and deaths than most (if not the most) than any other European peoples.

[Korbyn]

None of you are Ukrainians, much less northern Slavs, and none of you are Armenians/Georgians either. You're a hybrid. The sooner you all accept it, the better for the rest of Europe.

Funny how on this genetics map, it is apparent that Croatians share the most with Ukrainians. And the people that share the most with Armenians here, are coincidentally Greeks, Cypriots and you guessed it: Kosovar Albanians. (that little pink and orange, you see?)

While it is true that Italians show a similarity to Armenians as well; it only furthers my theory that Albanians came from the East fairly recently. And, where did the ancient Phrygians from Anatolia go? Were they the E-V13 carriers that assimilated into various Balkan cultures?

[Angela]

What is this post insinuating? That the Slavic people are evil Barbarian monsters? I have heard that one all before, and it's a tired theory. So is the theory that Illyrians are Albanians. (everyone seems to jump on these theoretical bandwagons, which lack evidence and may not even be true.)

If anyone is turning people into monsters, it's the people who blame Southern Slavs if you ask me. If Albanians are indigenous to the region; how come the Greeks have not noticed them since the 14th century? Did they overlook these small people? How could the Greeks, if they had been there since pre-history? That's very un-Greek of them. There are loads of questions to ask about Albanians. And to me, there is proof stacked more against them that they are recent. The Dinaric I2 being "younger" does not suggest anything to me at all.


Also, even the Greeks would and have admitted this, but the Romans have been responsible for more innocent killings and deaths than most (if not the most) than any other European peoples.

What on earth are you talking about? It's not insinuating anything. It's proving that the southern slavs, all of them, are much alike, and that there was obviously a northern Slav movement into the Balkans, as is indeed clear from the archaeology, during the Great Migration period which assimilated the pre-existing people of the Balkans. Some groups were more isolated or further south, and didn't get as much of it.

If you don't like what the genetics and the linguistics show about the population genetics of the Balkans, it's not my problem, it's your problem.

There is NO genetic proof that the Albanians were brought to the Balkans by the Turks if that's the propaganda to which you are referring.

Also, your last comment is totally off topic.

I would suggest you read all the genetics papers to which I linked upthread before commenting further.

Also be sure to read Ralph and Coop on Balkan IBD sharing with Slavs and the period to which it is dated. Albanians are also included in the analysis.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

There's absolutely no rational way to deny that Slavs and the Slavic languages are newcomers in the Balkans.

I'm not going to be responding to any more unsubstantiated claims.

Funny how on this genetics map, it is apparent that Croatians share the most with Ukrainians. And the people that share the most with Armenians here, are coincidentally Greeks, Cypriots and you guessed it: Kosovar Albanians. (that little pink and orange, you see?)

While it is true that Italians show a similarity to Armenians as well; it only furthers my theory that Albanians came from the East fairly recently. And, where did the ancient Phrygians from Anatolia go? Were they the E-V13 carriers that assimilated into various Balkan cultures?

Just READ some genetics papers. What do you think the people in the Balkans were like before the Slavs arrived? We still had groups that were "Sardinian like" after the Indo-European invasions. I'm sorry, but this kind of stuff isn't worthy of a response, so don't expect any. This is a quasi-scientific site. If you just want to spout your old, unsourced propaganda, this isn't the site for you.

[Korbyn]

I never stated any of that. If you go back and read ... I took a look at the post/link you posted and even more, I opened the webpage that Aberdeen linked to and even the map... and meticulously researched and came up with my own analysis.

Where have I ever mentioned the Turks forcing your beloved and innocent Albanians to migrating to the Albanian homeland? I only mentioned when the Ottoman Empire was that they were freed. (in 1912 of course..) Turks did not force Albanians to where they are. That's not how it happened; and not what I suggested..

Also, your last comment is totally off topic.

No it isn't ... I gave my analysis on Dinarid I2. As many times before... and likewise you overlooked it once again...

No one had a problem with my "ludicrous theories" until you passively seemed to suggest that it was discriminatory or with nationalist intentions.. Even someone like Sile seem to dignify my apparent "ludicrous" hypothesis/speculations. (I'm not saying they are 100% true, no. But there is a great chance that I may be right, on most of 'em.)

I think even the Albanian here who made a comment, was showing at least some interest, as well.

And you have yet to answer me this: if Greeks are so good at history: why, even in Byzantine times, have the Greeks not noticed the Albanians until the 14th-15th centuries, just like the Slavs? And where did the Phyrgians go off to? Did they join the Greek culture?

[Angela]

Even if I'm a moderator here, I can't read every post of every thread. I had no idea people were posting things again that we've known for ages are manifestly untrue.

You obviously haven't read all the papers to which I linked or you couldn't be saying the things you're saying. If nothing else, I posted Ralph and Coop a few minutes ago, and the admixture chart seems a surprise to you.

Everything agrees. You're all very close cousins, with very minute differences between you. It may not be what you were taught, but it's the reality.

As for your inter-Balkan warfare, I take no sides politically. I've seen mad statements from all sides, and there were atrocities on all sides, although what was done to the Muslims is on a different level. If they are disaffected it's hardly to be wondered at.

This, and the various other threads and papers to which I linked, are genetics based. I try, as do a lot of our posters, to be as objective about data as possible. As we say here, I have no dog in the race.

[Korbyn]

If you don't like what the genetics and the linguistics show about the population genetics of the Balkans, it's not my problem, it's your problem.

It isn't my problem. You've got it all wrong. Twist it backwards. The Albanians already are a linguistic isolate; the Slavs are not.

There's absolutely no rational way to deny that Slavs and the Slavic languages are newcomers in the Balkans.

I'm not going to be responding to any more unsubstantiated claims.

Just READ some genetics papers. What do you think the people in the Balkans were like before the Slavs arrived? We still had groups that were "Sardinian like" after the Indo-European invasions. I'm sorry, but this kind of stuff isn't worthy of a response, so don't expect any. This is a quasi-scientific site. If you just want to spout your old, unsourced propaganda, this isn't the site for you.

I'll twist it backward: There's absolutely no rational way to deny that Albanians and the Albanian languages are newcomers in the Balkans.

So where did the Slavs come from, before 6th century AD then? The Greeks and Romans are so good at history they documented the Persians, Scythians, Celts and Germans for millenia, but suddenly the Slavs and the Albanians are a mystery?

Albanians are a linguistic isolate. What you are insinuating (and you are, by the way...) is that a Slavic invasion occurred, which overtook or murdered the native speakers of Albanian or something similar...

There was no propaganda ... but I can detect an agenda and bias already instilled in you, Angela. Which seems like a self-projection on-towards me. If anyone is leading this topic about I2a Dinarid astray, it is not me- it's you.

[Korbyn]

Even if I'm a moderator here, I can't read every post of every thread. I had no idea people were posting things again that we've known for ages are manifestly untrue.

You obviously haven't read all the papers to which I linked or you couldn't be saying the things you're saying. If nothing else, I posted Ralph and Coop a few minutes ago, and the admixture chart seems a surprise to you.

Everything agrees. You're all very close cousins, with very minute differences between you. It may not be what you were taught, but it's the reality.

As for your inter-Balkan warfare, I take no sides politically. I've seen mad statements from all sides, and there were atrocities on all sides, although what was done to the Muslims is on a different level. If they are disaffected it's hardly to be wondered at.

This, and the various other threads and papers to which I linked, are genetics based. I try, as do a lot of our posters, to be as objective about data as possible. As we say here, I have no dog in the race.

Sure seems like it. (you are holding an agenda). And as I posted just now, it seems you are becoming touchy and are self-projecting your own delusions onto me..

[Sile]

It isn't my problem. You've got it all wrong. Twist it backwards. The Albanians already are a linguistic isolate; the Slavs are not.



I'll twist it backward: There's absolutely no rational way to deny that Albanians and the Albanian languages are newcomers in the Balkans.

So where did the Slavs come from, before 6th century AD then? The Greeks and Romans are so good at history they documented the Persians, Scythians, Celts and Germans for millenia, but suddenly the Slavs and the Albanians are a mystery?

Albanians are a linguistic isolate. What you are insinuating (and you are, by the way...) is that a Slavic invasion occurred, which overtook or murdered the native speakers of Albanian or something similar...

There was no propaganda ... but I can detect an agenda and bias already instilled in you, Angela. Which seems like a self-projection on-towards me. If anyone is leading this topic about I2a Dinarid astray, it is not me- it's you.

The south slavic migration ( ~600AD ) happened after the gothic/barbarian invasion of the roman empire ~400AD . The slavs first entered modern Poland via Slovakia and later entered the balkans via south Poland and another route through Romania

The bulgars entered via Romania ~800AD

The serbs and bulgars mixed with the thracians and the croats and bosnians with illyri/celtic/romani mix

[Korbyn]

The south slavic migration ( ~600AD ) happened after the gothic/barbarian invasion of the roman empire ~400AD . The slavs first entered modern Poland via Slovakia and later entered the balkans via south Poland and another route through Romania

The bulgars entered via Romania ~800AD

The serbs and bulgars mixed with the thracians and the croats and bosnians with illyri/celtic/romani mix

There is a lot of evidence that Western Slavs, as well as Ugrics (Hungarians) and Balts are the result of Sarmatians and other Indo-Iranians. (Scythians) invading and taking those language groups. So, essentially; the Polish and Sorbs carry the highest amount of R1a and lowest amount of I2 Dinarid quite possibly because they are actually Indo-Iranians that speak Slavic.

[Nik]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents after reading several pages on this forum about this topic.

I would suggest everyone interested to focus their attention in the Vlachs of Yugoslavia, Albania, FYROM and Greece and their respective haplogroups.

Studies have shown that several Vlach populated villages in Albania and FYROM show very high I-P37 concentration (sometimes higher than Herzegovina itself), indicating a non-Slavic origin of I-Din in the Balkans.

Similarly, despite the lack of proper studies on ex-Yugoslavian Vlachs, one can turn to history and realize that the area of Northern Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia were historically heavily populated by ethnic Vlachs (especially the mountainous areas) who only got assimilated into Serbs/Montenegrins, Croats or Bosniaks only after 15-16th century despite the strong Orthodox tradition (or Catholic sometimes).

An interesting proof of these Romance speaking or bilingual communities are the Stecaks (medieval monumental tombstones) made exclusively by Vlachs in the aforementioned regions. In the same time, we known from anthropological studies that these communities were and still are predominantly Dinarid/Dinaric-CM with Atlanto-Med minorities, indicating a pre-Slavic origin of the vast majority of the population despite their modern Slavic tongue.

These facts altogether do not prove they are simply Illyrian, but at least they give us strong hints of a Northern Illyrian/Pannonian/Dacian population been pushed both westward and southward during the Barbarian Invasions.

Korbyn: Its none of my business or anything but I've read yours and Angela's posts and it doesn't seem fair to accuse her of "having an agenda". She's merely stating facts while you're pushing for your personal opinion on the matter, which sorry to say but seems very illogical.

On the contrary, you appear to have the so-called "agenda" by bringing up topics about the Middle Eastern origin of the Albanians on a thread for I-Din. Maybe u should take her advise, do some reading and tone it down a bit. But hey, who am I to tell u?!

[Milan]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents after reading several pages on this forum about this topic.

I would suggest everyone interested to focus their attention in the Vlachs of Yugoslavia, Albania, FYROM and Greece and their respective haplogroups.

Studies have shown that several Vlach populated villages in Albania and FYROM show very high I-P37 concentration (sometimes higher than Herzegovina itself), indicating a non-Slavic origin of I-Din in the Balkans.

Similarly, despite the lack of proper studies on ex-Yugoslavian Vlachs, one can turn to history and realize that the area of Northern Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia were historically heavily populated by ethnic Vlachs (especially the mountainous areas) who only got assimilated into Serbs/Montenegrins, Croats or Bosniaks only after 15-16th century despite the strong Orthodox tradition (or Catholic sometimes).

An interesting proof of these Romance speaking or bilingual communities are the Stecaks (medieval monumental tombstones) made exclusively by Vlachs in the aforementioned regions. In the same time, we known from anthropological studies that these communities were and still are predominantly Dinarid/Dinaric-CM with Atlanto-Med minorities, indicating a pre-Slavic origin of the vast majority of the population despite their modern Slavic tongue.

These facts altogether do not prove they are simply Illyrian, but at least they give us strong hints of a Northern Illyrian/Pannonian/Dacian population been pushed both westward and southward during the Barbarian Invasions.

Korbyn: Its none of my business or anything but I've read yours and Angela's posts and it doesn't seem fair to accuse her of "having an agenda". She's merely stating facts while you're pushing for your personal opinion on the matter, which sorry to say but seems very illogical.

On the contrary, you appear to have the so-called "agenda" by bringing up topics about the Middle Eastern origin of the Albanians on a thread for I-Din. Maybe u should take her advise, do some reading and tone it down a bit. But hey, who am I to tell u?!

Lol.
Just because I2-Din is found in some groups of Vlachs in perhaps same amount as the South-Slavs we will declare the haplogroup as "Vlach" therefore pre-Slavic,what will you say then about other haplogroups that match between them,then the Romanians that show the same haplogroups as their South-Slavic neighbors.
Extremely inaccurate about the Stecak tombs also about that supposedly "Slavicization" of Vlachs in the 15th and 16 th century lol.
Apart from that i would like to tell you that "Vlach" in medieval Slavic tongue in Balkans meant a cattleman.
I would suggest you and other of this thread not to confuse language groups with haplogroups instead of giving advices to others.
Finally about '"antropology" observation,sorry it is again the South Slavs that mostly have the "Dinaric" appearance,and are tall and well build just like the "previous" population of that area is being described in contrast to others that wanna be "Illyrians".

[Korbyn]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents after reading several pages on this forum about this topic.

I would suggest everyone interested to focus their attention in the Vlachs of Yugoslavia, Albania, FYROM and Greece and their respective haplogroups.

Studies have shown that several Vlach populated villages in Albania and FYROM show very high I-P37 concentration (sometimes higher than Herzegovina itself), indicating a non-Slavic origin of I-Din in the Balkans.

Similarly, despite the lack of proper studies on ex-Yugoslavian Vlachs, one can turn to history and realize that the area of Northern Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia were historically heavily populated by ethnic Vlachs (especially the mountainous areas) who only got assimilated into Serbs/Montenegrins, Croats or Bosniaks only after 15-16th century despite the strong Orthodox tradition (or Catholic sometimes).

An interesting proof of these Romance speaking or bilingual communities are the Stecaks (medieval monumental tombstones) made exclusively by Vlachs in the aforementioned regions. In the same time, we known from anthropological studies that these communities were and still are predominantly Dinarid/Dinaric-CM with Atlanto-Med minorities, indicating a pre-Slavic origin of the vast majority of the population despite their modern Slavic tongue.

These facts altogether do not prove they are simply Illyrian, but at least they give us strong hints of a Northern Illyrian/Pannonian/Dacian population been pushed both westward and southward during the Barbarian Invasions.

Korbyn: Its none of my business or anything but I've read yours and Angela's posts and it doesn't seem fair to accuse her of "having an agenda". She's merely stating facts while you're pushing for your personal opinion on the matter, which sorry to say but seems very illogical.

On the contrary, you appear to have the so-called "agenda" by bringing up topics about the Middle Eastern origin of the Albanians on a thread for I-Din. Maybe u should take her advise, do some reading and tone it down a bit. But hey, who am I to tell u?!

It's not an agenda, it's literal. And there were no facts from her side, only mere interpretations....

[Milan]

[email protected]

Maybe it is not the right thread to discuss that.
I invite you to my last thread about the same issue.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...er-fairy-tales

[Korbyn]

Studies have shown that several Vlach populated villages in Albania and FYROM show very high I-P37 concentration (sometimes higher than Herzegovina itself), indicating a non-Slavic origin of I-Din in the Balkans.

Where are the sources for these claims? Sounds rather ludicrous to me. So what now, this only shows that Vlachs are only Romanized Slavs?

[Nik]

Lol.
Just because I2-Din is found in some groups of Vlachs in perhaps same amount as the South-Slavs we will declare the haplogroup as "Vlach" therefore pre-Slavic,what will you say then about other haplogroups that match between them,then the Romanians that show the same haplogroups as their South-Slavic neighbors.
Extremely inaccurate about the Stecak tombs also about that supposedly "Slavicization" of Vlachs in the 15th and 16 th century lol.
They Stecaks were build by dualist believers of South-Slavic origin,Bosnian in this case there is many proofs of that,that case is closed.
Apart from that i would like to tell you that "Vlach" in medieval Slavic tongue in Balkans meant a cattleman.
I would suggest you and other of this thread not to confuse language groups with haplogroups instead of giving advices to others.
Finally about '"antropology" observation,sorry it is again the South Slavs that mostly have the "Dinaric" appearance,and are tall and well build just like the "previous" population of that area is being described in contrast to others that wanna be "Illyrians".

What's with all the LOLs? Are u underage or smth? Just express your opinion and get on with it.

Anyway, the simple idea behind my post that u couldnt understand is that Vlachs are a pre-Slavic Romanized Balkan population, which doesnt make I-Din Vlach like ur logic works by assigning haplogroups to linguistic groups. So dear friend, if Vlachs have it in high amounts, then Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians had it in high amounts too. Is that too difficult to grasp?

These Vlachs that u call cattleman spoke a Romance language to the point that they even influenced the Modern Shtokavian speech due to their previous non-Slavic tongue.

And about the Dinaric "appearance", its highest concentration is in the area of Northern Albania, Western Kosovo, Southern half of Montenegro. The regions north and east of this area have a more mixed type with CM which makes their average height even taller like the case of Northern Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia. Again, linking a subrace to a certain linguistic group is pure idiocy.

And Korbyn, u r right when u say that I should provide evidence but im not here to educate anybody, so Google the genetic studies on Albania and Vlachs and you will find the original scientific studies on several villages and tables with percentages of each haplogroup. Like I said, I simply gave a suggestion to those interested folks, I wasn't trying to start a war with South Slavic people which are emotionally attached to the topic as their origin is at stake (the nationalists ones i mean, the ones who cant accept their predominantly pre-Slavic origin and similarity with their Albanian southern neighbours due to extreme hatred).

[Korbyn]

Just express your opinion and get on with it.

I just can't understand how a Swiss can be this clumsy and ignorant on the matter. The anti-Slavic propaganda must be intense.

[Milan]

I just can't understand how a Swiss can be this clumsy and ignorant on the matter. The anti-Slavic propaganda must be intense.

He is Albanian living in Swiss for sure,just look what he wrote.

[Milan]

deleted.....

[Nik]

Not like my expectations were high, but why did our conversation get personal? Clumsy and ignorant Swiss? Thank you for the feedback but how about u educate me on the matter instead of being offensive?

Korbyn, r u claiming that it is more likely that Slavs migrated massively, replaced 90% of the population (especially in the mountainous areas of the Dinaric Alps), and eventually got Romanized, then after a few centuries got Slavicized back? Because I see no other explanation as to why would Vlachs have a high percentage of I-Din.

Milan, it was actually the Yugoslav scholars that studied the Stecaks and through various contemporary sources identified the ethnicity of the areas with the highest concentration of Stecaks and how Stecaks appeared whenever Vlachs moved to the area. It was again ur own scholars that diged through medieval records and found that these so-called "cattlemen" had still maintained non-Slavic last names despite Orthodoxy, with many Latin and Arbanasi/Albanian last names.

And its again not fair or smart to state that I'm trying to lie when I'm simply sharing my opinion. If it pleases u, analyze it and research on my point and draw a conclusion for yourself. If not, then ignore it and move on. I have no interest whatsoever in arguing with u nor changing ur opinion, especially when it comes to such hot topics for Balkan people's origin where the pride and hatred make up 99% of the barrier together with stupidity. I'm not excluding the Albanian nationalists either just in case, same goes to everyone.

[Milan]

deleted....

[Korbyn]

Not like my expectations were high, but why did our conversation get personal? Clumsy and ignorant Swiss? Thank you for the feedback but how about u educate me on the matter instead of being offensive?

Korbyn, r u claiming that it is more likely that Slavs migrated massively, replaced 90% of the population (especially in the mountainous areas of the Dinaric Alps), and eventually got Romanized, then after a few centuries got Slavicized back? Because I see no other explanation as to why would Vlachs have a high percentage of I-Din.

Milan, it was actually the Yugoslav scholars that studied the Stecaks and through various contemporary sources identified the ethnicity of the areas with the highest concentration of Stecaks and how Stecaks appeared whenever Vlachs moved to the area. It was again ur own scholars that diged through medieval records and found that these so-called "cattlemen" had still maintained non-Slavic last names despite Orthodoxy, with many Latin and Arbanasi/Albanian last names.

And its again not fair or smart to state that I'm trying to lie when I'm simply sharing my opinion. If it pleases u, analyze it and research on my point and draw a conclusion for yourself. If not, then ignore it and move on. I have no interest whatsoever in arguing with u nor changing ur opinion, especially when it comes to such hot topics for Balkan people's origin where the pride and hatred make up 99% of the barrier together with stupidity. I'm not excluding the Albanian nationalists either just in case, same goes to everyone.

are you joking. i struggle to understand that you are a real person. its not an insult or being offensive, i don't understand how you think.