How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[ihype02]

Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian Invasions".
From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South:
Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc.

The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous.
Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.

[ihype02]

I wish there was a map regarding I2a-din specifically.

[Angela]

Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian Invasions".
From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South:
Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc.

The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous.
Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.

One of the things modern genetics has taught us is that we should take the opinions of historians, especially ancient historians, with a large grain of salt. In the first case, they had no way of knowing the genetic effect of various wars and migrations, basing everything on speculation, and in the latter case, the "historians", even when they knew anything other than what was transpiring in their own immediate area, may have had agendas of one kind or another. One common example is the obviously inflated numbers of various armies or the number of slaves, etc.

Just take the example of the Mycenaeans. Up until the day the recent Lazaridis et al paper came out people were pontificating everywhere how "steppe" like they would be, given that this has always been the exemplar of the Bronze Age "Indo-European" culture, and speculations about the "huge" waves of steppe people who would have been pouring in. Turns out the "steppe" portion was 4-16% or 13-18% depending on the method used, so perhaps somewhere around 15%.

As to I2a-"Din" and subclades, wouldn't FTDNA have maps?

There's also this general one on I2a2 (old I2b). Does more recent data change the picture substantially?

[ihype02]

I am not really sure if this is the right place to post it:
As of the beginning of the 6th century there was in fact no significant Slavic presence anywhere in the territory of modern Russia except the province of Bryansk while the Slavic core embraced contemporary western and northern Ukraine, southern Belarus and south-eastern Poland. The territory north of the Slavs was dominated by various Baltic tribes who occupied significant area that included all of the contemporary Lithuania, most of Belarus, southern half of Latvia, all of the modern province of Smolensk and partially the provinces of Moscow (western half) and Pskov (southern districts) as well as the historical East Prussia now shared by Poland and Russian enclave of Kaliningrad. All the rest of today’s central and northern Russia was the realm of Finnic and Finno-Ugric tribes.
Brzezinski, Richard; Mielczarek, Mariusz (2002). The Sarmatians, 600 BC-AD 450. Osprey Publishing. p. 39. [...] Indeed, it is now accepted that the Sarmatians merged in with pre-Slavic populations.
Adams, Douglas Q. (1997). Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. Taylor & Francis. p. 523. [...] In their Ukrainian and Polish homeland the Slavs were intermixed and at times overlain by Germanic speakers (the Goths) and by Iranian speakers (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans) in a shifting array of tribal and national configurations.
Atkinson, Dorothy; Dallin, Alexander; Warshofsky Lapidus, Gail, eds. (1977). Women in Russia. Stanford University Press. p. 3. [...] Ancient accounts link the Amazons with the Scythians and the Sarmatians, who successively dominated the south of Russia for a millennium extending back to the seventh century B.C. The descendants of these peoples were absorbed by the Slavs who came to be known as Russians.
Slovene Studies. 9–11. Society for Slovene Studies. 1987. p. 36. [...] For example, the ancient Scythians, Sarmatians (amongst others), and many other attested but now extinct peoples were assimilated in the course of history by Proto-Slavs.
"Between the sixth and seventh centuries, large parts of Europe came to be controlled by Slavs, a process less understood and documented than that of the Germanic ethnogenesis in the west. Yet the effects of Slavicization were far more profound". Geary (2003, p. 144)

[ihype02]

One of the things modern genetics has taught us is that we should take the opinions of historians, especially ancient historians, with a large grain of salt. In the first case, they had no way of knowing the genetic effect of various wars and migrations, basing everything on speculation

See the difference between upper Balkans and Anatolia:

Attachment 9088

[Angela]

^^None of your attachments open up, so it's impossible to respond.

[ihype02]

........................

[ihype02]

Aromanians from Andon Poçi, Albania[64]

I haplogroup is over 40%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroman...enetic_studies
As we see Vlachs are extremely diverse.

[ihype02]

The Aromuns, presumably descended from the Roman-era population of the Balkans, have over 20% of I2a, more than the Slavic-speaking Macedonian neighbours.

Macedonians have roughly 30% I2a-"din". As for Aromanians, they are extremely diverse and have absorbed lot of migrants. For example R1A in Aromanians scores 21% (Štip RoM)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arom...enetic_studies

[Garrick]

Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian Invasions". From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South: Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc. The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous. Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.

Really Huns made destruction in the Balkans, historical sources confirm it.

For many others we should vague because they brought new things, inventions, progress, they mixed with locals and their whole contribution can be positive. Celts are one good example for it from 4th BCE. In period which you mention for example Goths contributed culture and history, it could be incorrect to call them destructors.

Also many tribes and people were subject of "ethnic engineering" where imperial rulers settled (or deported) whole or big part of population. Bastarnae for example are that case and when they arrived to the Balkans more times they mixed with local Thracians/Dacians during long period and became part of local population, therefore they were constructive (not destructive) element.

[ihype02]

I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

Sparkley, how do you explain:
1.) The contrast of northern Slavs and Southern Slavs: the high frequencies of R1a in northern Slavs and low frequencies in southern ones. Considering they originated from mostly similar regions.
2.) The idea of some pagan tribes which knew little in antiquity overruning nearly the whole Eastern Europe. Do you have any demographic evidence? The only thing that comes to my mind is the plague of Justian which killed off the bulk of population in Eastern Mediterranean.

[hrvat22]

The I2a with mutation I-S17250 in the Balkan is White Croatian origin.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ats-to-Croatia

[Garrick]

The I2a with mutation I-S17250 in the Balkan is White Croatian origin.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ats-to-Croatia

How many times you will say it.

You saw what scientists write, experts of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science.

Some forum cannot help against science, and Eupedia fosters science, and science enable progress.

[hrvat22]

How many times you will say it.

You saw what scientists write, experts of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science.

Some forum cannot help against science, and Eupedia fosters science, and science enable progress.

Are you joking with me.?

experts of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science.

They are not stronger than genetics, I believe only genetics and historical records that this genetics confirms, everything else is a crystal ball or grandma Vanga fairytale.

[Garrick]

Are you joking with me.?

No.

Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science should be respected.

Dr Francesco Borri is stronger than genetics, hahahaha he did not write DAI and his comment is as good as your comment

You can write what you want but laughing to scientists is wrong approach.

Every amateur who underestimates scientists and experts should think about words of Bertrand Russell:

"What science cannot discover, mankind cannot know. "

[Wonomyro]

No. Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science should be respected. You can write what you want but laughing to scientists is wrong approach. Every amateur who underestimates scientists and experts should think about words of Bertrand Russell: "What science cannot discover, mankind cannot know. "

How much do they pay to you? Hopefully, there are other very good scientists who have more interdisciplinary approach what makes them see things much clearer then Dr. Too Often Mentioned does.

[Angela]

I'm not going to say it again. The mutations about which you argue have yet to be found in any ancient samples. Until they are this is just nationalistic chest beating and speculation.

[Wonomyro]

I'm not going to say it again. The mutations about which you argue have yet to be found in any ancient samples. Until they are this is just nationalistic chest beating and speculation.

(My post was the last one so I assume that your comment was directed to me).

Well, I do not argue about the mutation itself (you may check my posts). I just support the theory that there was a significant depopulation in province of Dalmatia during the migration period, and that a repopulation took place afterwards, as all three earliest historical sources state.

[Crya]

(My post was the last one so I assume that your comment was directed to me).Well, I do not argue about the mutation itself (you may check my posts). I just support the theory that there was a significant depopulation in province of Dalmatia during the migration period, and that a repopulation took place afterwards, as all three earliest historical sources state.

Miroslav mentioned Tibor Zivkovic and his work about Balkan history as a true source. Tibor said that only 1-3% of nobles came during 6-7th century. As I've told before, the "great" Slavic migration to the Balkan have never happened!Mario Alinei said:"In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to theNorth from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, themost important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which isentirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –andcertainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion that involves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case of underestimation of one’s own science. Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following the traditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved alsothe Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there has been a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards. A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between the idea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existing languages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormous technological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people, have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. The ideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a Copper Age IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the fact that research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highly civilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the pre Indo-European substrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – a phantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientific thinking."

[Crya]

(My post was the last one so I assume that your comment was directed to me).Well, I do not argue about the mutation itself (you may check my posts). I just support the theory that there was a significant depopulation in province of Dalmatia during the migration period, and that a repopulation took place afterwards, as all three earliest historical sources state.

Great Slavic migration have never happened. Tibor Zivkovic said that only 1-3% of the nobles came to the Balkan during the so-called the great migration. I will cite Mario Alinei:In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to theNorth from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, themost important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which isentirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –andcertainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion thatinvolves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case ofunderestimation of one’s own science.Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following thetraditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved alsothe Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there hasbeen a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards. A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between theidea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existinglanguages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormoustechnological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. Theideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a CopperAge IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the factthat research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highlycivilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the preIndo-Europeansubstrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia andSlovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – aphantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientificthinking.

[Angela]

Great Slavic migration have never happened. Tibor Zivkovic said that only 1-3% of the nobles came to the Balkan during the so-called the great migration. I will cite Mario Alinei:In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to theNorth from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, themost important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which isentirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –andcertainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion thatinvolves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case ofunderestimation of one’s own science.Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following thetraditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved alsothe Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there hasbeen a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards. A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between theidea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existinglanguages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormoustechnological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. Theideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a CopperAge IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the factthat research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highlycivilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the preIndo-Europeansubstrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia andSlovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – aphantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientificthinking.

Unless you can produce recent, scientific, genetic evidence this is all wild speculation and unworthy of consideration. Please google "newbies" thread and start reading.

[hrvat22]

Great Slavic migration have never happened. Tibor Zivkovic said that only 1-3% of the nobles came to the Balkan during the so-called the great migration. I will cite Mario Alinei:In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to theNorth from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, themost important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which isentirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –andcertainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion thatinvolves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case ofunderestimation of one’s own science.Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following thetraditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved alsothe Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there hasbeen a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards. A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between theidea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existinglanguages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormoustechnological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. Theideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a CopperAge IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the factthat research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highlycivilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the preIndo-Europeansubstrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia andSlovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – aphantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientificthinking.

You have genetics and prove it, until then it's a dead letter on paper.

[Bachus]

The I2a with mutation I-S17250 in the Balkan is White Croatian origin.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ats-to-Croatia

Not true, you're talking BS, Croats which came to the Balkans were not Slavs, they were Turkic tribe.

[hrvat22]

Not true, you're talking BS, Croats which came to the Balkans were not Slavs, they were Turkic tribe.

You have genetics and prove it, until then it is fairy tale from crystal ball.

[Fatherland]

What is the final conclusion? This trainwreck of a thread has derailed far too many times.