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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    93 44.08%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 3.79%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 0.95%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.84%
  • The Slavs

    84 39.81%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    18 8.53%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1376
    Regular Member JajarBingan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Croats from Bosnia have the most I2a I-S17250, then follows Croats from Dalmatia, then Bosniaks, Serbians etc. This is if we follow official scientific papers.

    Why Croats of Bosnia have most I2a I-S17250, this is because Croats as Catholics in Turkish time do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims and at that time no one goes to Catholicism but it was opposite so Croats at that time kept Croatian genetics that was there before arrival of the Turks and Vlachs to Bosnia. It's interesting to see 30% I2a in Bosnian Serbs which says that they are much more mixed with Orthodox Vlachs, Albanians, possible Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks(we'll see in the future).

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm
    I won't take any sides because I haven't read about I-S17250 and the link to White Croats.
    However if you were to look at the frequencies of Y4460 from below, doesn't it look like a more likely candidate considering its frequency in old White Croat territory (Ukraine -> Moldova -> Romania -> Hungary -> Slovenia)? But then it would seem like Slovenes and all of the previously mentioned people are closer to White Croats than Serbo-Croatians.
    So, maybe Y4460 is an indicator for another tribe. As opposed to these 2, the remaining Z17855 looks to me like a pre-Slavic Balkan lineage. Maybe that's the speculated Thracian/Dacian remnant.

    Taking the Romanian example, out of a frequency of 28% for I2a-Din (L621),


    • 9-9.5% belongs to S17250
    • 9-9.5% - Y4460
    • 9-9.5% - Z17855


    The distribution is very even among the L621 subclades in Romania, which is consistent with it being at the crossroads geographically, but looking at Bosnia the overwhelming majority of the L621 population falls into S17250.

    S17250


    Y4460


    Z17855

  2. #1377
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    I won't take any sides because I haven't read about I-S17250 and the link to White Croats.
    But that could be a possibility, however if you were to look at the frequencies of Y4460 from below, doesn't it look like a more likely candidate considering its frequency in old White Croat territory (Ukraine -> Moldova -> Romania -> Hungary -> Slovenia)

    Taking the Romanian example, out of a frequency of 28% for I2a-Din (L621),


    • 9-9.5% belongs to S17250
    • 9-9.5% - Y4460
    • 9-9.5% - Z17855


    The distribution is very even among the L621 subclades in Romania, which is consistent with it being at the crossroads geographically, but looking at Bosnia the overwhelming majority of the L621 population falls into S17250.

    S17250


    Y4460


    Z17855
    Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
    From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
    The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
    While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.

  3. #1378
    Regular Member JajarBingan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
    From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
    The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
    While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.
    Hmm, interesting, I'll have to dig deeper.
    Do you have any compendium on I2-Din in this region?

    I'll get the panel from YSEQ soon btw, so I'll hopefully get a deeper look at subclade level. My current assignment is via livingdna.

  4. #1379
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    Mutation CTS10228 ancestor of S17250 also has source in White Croatia or that wider area.

    If we follow current time from YFull tree https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ we see that subclade S17250 TMRCA is 1750 ybp, I-Y4460 TMRCA is 2100 ybp and Z17855 TMRCA is 1450 ybp.

    In my opinion I-Y4460 (TMRCA 2100 ybp) leaving White Croatia before formation of subclade S17250 and probably migrate towards Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine etc. And because of this Croats do not have this subclade in significant percentage.


    Regarding Z17855 subclade we see that same exists in small percentage in Croatia, there is a possibility that Z17855 coming to Croatia from direction of Romania, Bulgaria during the Turkish occupation. We will know exactly in the future. That Z17855 existed in White Croatia in the time of migration to Croatia then Croats also must have Z17855 subclade but that's not the case. Interestingly in Romania you have three branches of CTS10228 which indicates that first migrations went in direction of east Balkans while we in Croatia have mostly one branch.

    An issue is that subclade Z17855 has TMRCA 1450 ybp and it is approximately time of Croatian migration to Balkans, then why Croats do not have it? Maybe TMRCA will be corrected in the future because it changes from time to time.
    That subclade Z17855 has TMRCA 1000 ybp then this mutation arose after Croatian migration from White Croatia and therefore Croatians today do not have it and this would be a logical conclusion.

  5. #1380
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    Hmm, interesting, I'll have to dig deeper.
    Do you have any compendium on I2-Din in this region?

    I'll get the panel from YSEQ soon btw, so I'll hopefully get a deeper look at subclade level. My current assignment is via livingdna.
    I forgot to mention, there are about ten Dinaric North (DYS448=20) results from public projects with Romanian surnames without tested any subclade. This is not enough for a big country like Romania, but anyway would be great if some of them take additional tests.
    I have an excel file with haplotypes from scientific researches and public projects (including Ysearch), I am not sure how much haplotypes probably several thousands. I have not put it on one worksheet, every country has a different sheet, but plan to marge tables soon to make easier for comparison and search.
    Tables include the name of the scientific studies and regions, some haplotypes appear two times because it is used in more than one study but STR markers are extended in the second.
    Here is statistic from scientific studies https://s15.postimg.cc/3pqaxv74b/image.jpg
    I have to include some more studies and statistic from studies where haplotypes are not available but it is needed to make the picture complete.

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    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #1382
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    (...) My current assignment is via livingdna.
    Salut!
    Can you say something about the autosomal result? Haplogroups represent very little of genetic inheritance...

  8. #1383
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    Well...Russia and Ukraine and some other Slavic countries are full of Dinaric South cluster (PH908)

    Subclades:

    • DinA3a (A356) ~ 80% 7,6mln 150/450CE Common in Eastern Europe
      • DinA3a1 (A493) Bosnia, Croatia, Greece, Montenegro, Ukraine, Czech Rep., Germany, Poland
        • DinA3a1a (Y6651) Czech Clan
        • DinA3a1b (A8740) Germany, Poland

    • DinA3b (A5913) ~ 10% Croatia, Russia, Montenegro, Ukraine
    • DinA3c (PH3310) ~ 5% 150/150CE Serbia
    • DinA3d (A13912) ~ 5% Croatia, Hungary

  9. #1384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
    From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
    The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
    While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.
    Z17855 is very interesting considering its focus in Romania, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria. It is very young compared to other branches, otherwise I would have hypothesized Free Dacians. More likely, it is a Proto-Slavic clade which had a founding among Vlachic tribes, hence its majority among the aforementioned peoples.

  10. #1385
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    The subclade I-CTS10228-Y3120 is brought to the Balkans by Slavic tribes. Arguments:

    • TMRCA of 2300 years
    • The fact is that in Moscow percentage of men that have this haplogroup is about 10%, while in Rome it is less than 1%
    • Modern distribution is correlated with recorded Slavic expansion from first millenia CE.
    • Also, so called Greeko-Jewish clusters I-Y3120-Y18331* and I-Y3120-Y18331-A2512 most probably are of proto-slavic origin



    ‚Äč
    I will describe a model here, of what I think had happened. I-Y3120-Y18331* emerged in the eastern part of proto-slavs and went eastward. Maybe the Gothic expansion primarily affected the direction of migration. The problem was that those Slavs were in the wrong place at the very wrong time, so most of them ended up as slaves, with no progeny. But some of those Slavic tribes made an alliance with the Turkic people of Bulgars, and those Slavs took part in the making of Kubrat's Great Bulgaria in the seventh century, either as allies or mercenaries. Later on, when Great Bulgaria split apart, Asparuh and maybe Kuber migrated from the steppe to the Balkans with I-Y3120-Y18331 Slavs in their armies. Rest of those allied Slavs stayed in the north with other Kubrat's sons, eventually being assimilated into Khazar and Chuvash people. Khazar elite converted to Judaism, and when Svyatoslav Igorevich put an end on Khazarian state some of the Jews moved to the north-west, while the other Khazars took part in the Chuvash ethnogenesis east of the Volga.

    To put it shortly: I think that cluster I-Y3120-Y18331 in the Balkans are descendants of Bulgaric army men from the seventh century.
    Theory of the Bastarnae origin of Balkanic I-Y3120-Y18331 is stretchy. The timetable of their arrival is too narrow, while I-Y3120-Y18331 is very similar to the Slavic subclades in terms of TMRCA and formation ages, and it can not explain the Chuvash and the Jewish branch.

  11. #1386
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sneki View Post
    To put it shortly: I think that cluster I-Y3120-Y18331 in the Balkans are descendants of Bulgaric army men from the seventh century.
    Theory of the Bastarnae origin of Balkanic I-Y3120-Y18331 is stretchy. The timetable of their arrival is too narrow, while I-Y3120-Y18331 is very similar to the Slavic subclades in terms of TMRCA and formation ages, and it can not explain the Chuvash and the Jewish branch.
    The A10959 branches in which so far there are only Greeks and East European Jews split off from the parent branch A10959 an estimated 2,000 years ago, per YFull. Y66192 has the Greeks and downstream of Y23115 are the Jews. So it appears A10959 split before there were Slavic migrations to the Balkans. Plus, there are no modern Bulgarians yet in Y18331. Bulgarians are found in other CTS 10228 branches.

    Evidence seems to point to a Y18331 homeland in the northern Black Sea region, but it is probably too early to say with any confidence. Maybe we need more samples.

  12. #1387
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Every evidence points to Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    Every evidence points to Slavs.
    Which evidence are you referring to? Please give me some examples.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Which evidence are you referring to? Please give me some examples.
    The TMCRA it has with North Slavs points it came from there within last 1500 years, more or less. If you check yfull.com.

    This is also what Nordtvedts research showed years ago. They found it's ancestral clade in Poland.


    Also how I2a1b was never found in any ancient Balkan remains points that it came later with Slavs.

    In areas like Croatia where I2a1b is high today they rather found ancient remains of J2b2-L283, R1b L23 , Ev13 . Seems like I2a1b and Slavic R1a replaced these lineages in large parts.

    They found I2a2 , G and other ydnas but that isn't the type common in South Slavs.

    Since people here claim there is a Paleolithic continuity and that's one of the options, but there is no evidence of any paleolithic continuity. Quite the opposite.


    If I2a1b was as common in ancient Balkans as it is today then surely there should be no problem to dig up some graves and prove this but what we are seeing is rather the opposite. Slavic male lineages , especially in Bosnia, Croatia etc replaced a lot of the natives.

    This could probably be because a lot of the natives with the first Slavic and Avar invasions (see Antes, Sclavenis etc. ) , spilled south and where they got ansorbed by a proto Albanian population. Later settled the Proto Serbs and Proto Croats from more North and they found a lot of lands empty due to earlier invasions and plagues that had depopulated a lot of the Balkans, some Slavs had already settled there which they absorbed and some native leftovers , Latin speakers.

    Later the Serbs emerged empires and they expanded even more south where they came into contact with Albanians and Latin speakers but that's another topic.

    Bulgaria, Macedonia etc had more natives than Croatia, Bosnia etc.

    One can especially see this by DNA. Since the Slavs in Bulgaria and Macedonia are more Southern shifted on average, shifting towards Albanians and get less East Europe.


    I2a1b , before absorbing into a Slavic ethnos seems to have a North West European origin going by yfull and then expanded East . See France , Sweden etc where it was found.

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    [QUOTE=Gash;562651]The TMCRA it has with North Slavs points it came from there within last 1500 years, more or less. If you check yfull.com.

    Also how I2a1b was never found in any ancient Balkan remains points that it came later with Slavs.

    In areas like Croatia where I2a1b is high today they rather found ancient remains of J2b2-L283, R1b L23 , Ev13 . Seems like I2a1b and Slavic R1a replaced these lineages in large parts.

    They found I2a2 , G and other ydnas but that isn't the type common in South Slavs.

    All this is old speculation that proves nothing.

    It requires aDNA to move forward on this issue.

  16. #1391
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post

    All this is old speculation that proves nothing.

    It requires aDNA to move forward on this issue.
    I already updated my post above. It isn't really speculation. What ADNA do you mean ? What has autosomal DNA anything to do with this ? They have quite the East European influence and show IBD sharing with East Europeans.

    Look at yfull and see the TMCRA it has with North Slavs. this isnt a speculation. They found its ancestral clade in Poland, France, Sweden etc. This was proven years ago by Nordtvedt that it isnt native. You people just never catched up and want to believe whatever suits you which is why you all have been pushing for the paleolithic continuity for years without any genetic evidence to back it up or a logical explanation, this is rather speculation or should I say its just wishful thinking. We can say it came with Slavs until proven otherwise pretty much. Now that they found ancient graves , see: a genomic history of south east europe; for example. it proves it even more. or points to that direction. Which is why I said every evidence we have so far points towards there.


    We have ancient YDNA from the Balkans, they never found I2a1b because it replaced a lot of the native male lineages... most Croat and Bosniak males arent even J2b2 L283, R1b or Ev13 , or even I2a2 .


    Youre basically arguing I2a1b is native but somehow lacks in the Northern Albanians and ancient Graves but ydna's common in Northern Albanians were found in ancient remains in Croatia where today I2a1b is high but no I2a1b was found .... nor in Serbia ... somehow I2a1b magically became a high frequency there but neighboring areas south of it has it less ... this makes no sense ... what rather happened is that it came with Slavs as shown by TMCRA and became a high frequency through a founder effect or bottle neck . It took with it some of the Slavic R1a ... most of the R1a in South Slavs is of Slavic origin too.. only a coincidence that I2a1b reached a high frequency eventually and not R1a ... this occured through a founder effect most likely.

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    " What ADNA do you mean ? What has autosomal DNA anything to do with this ?"

    My question is: what has Y haplogroup I2a1b to do with autosomal DNA?

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    Ancient DNA (aDNA) is DNA isolated from ancient specimens.[1][2] Due to degradation processes (including cross-linking, deamination and fragmentation) ancient DNA is of lower quality in comparison with modern genetic material.[3] Even under the best preservation conditions, there is an upper boundary of 0.4-1.5 million years for a sample at around to contain sufficient DNA for contemporary sequencing technologies.[4] Genetic material has been recovered from archaeological and historical skeletal material, mummified tissues, archival collections of non-frozen medical specimens, preserved plant remains, ice and permafrost cores as well as marine and lake sediments.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA

    Autosomal DNA is a term used in genetic genealogy to describe DNA which is inherited from the autosomal chromosomes. An autosome is any of the numbered chromosomes, as opposed to the sex chromosomes. Humans have 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes (the X chromosome and the Y chromosome). Autosomes are numbered roughly in relation to their sizes. That is, Chromosome 1 has approximately 2,800 genes, while chromosome 22 has approximately 750 genes. There is no established abbreviation for autosomal DNA: atDNA (more common) and auDNA are used.

    https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA

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    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

    you can check out the yfull to see that this haplogroup and its various clades and their TMCRA are linked to Slavs. Even in Greece. Nothing to do with paleolithic continuity in the Balkans or Ilyrians. There is absolutely no evidence for this.

    I remember the most common clade in South Slavs, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland. Sharing a recent TMCRA.

    Add that with what I said earlier that they never found any ancient DNA in the Balkans that was I-CTS10228 despite it's high frequency there today and you get a pretty good picture.

    If you don't understand that then we can agree to disagree.

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    "Nothing to do with paleolithic continuity in the Balkans or Ilyrians. There is absolutely no evidence for this."

    Are you talking to me? Did I say that? Everyone knows that the Paleolithic continuity hypothesis is out of date.

    "I remember the most common clade in South Slavs, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland. Sharing a recent TMCRA."






    By the way, what language spoke this medieval clade in Poland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    By the way, what language spoke this medieval clade in Poland?
    Russian...?

  22. #1397
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "Nothing to do with paleolithic continuity in the Balkans or Ilyrians. There is absolutely no evidence for this."

    Are you talking to me? Did I say that? Everyone knows that the Paleolithic continuity hypothesis is out of date.

    "I remember the most common clade in South Slavs, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland. Sharing a recent TMCRA."






    By the way, what language spoke this medieval clade in Poland?
    Proto-Slavic? Speakers of Slavic languages spoke variants of a still very unified language. According to one definition of this theoretical (because there are no written sources) language on Wikipedia, they probably spoke Middle-Common-Slavic which was widely mutual intelligible among Slavic speaking peoples between 800-1000 AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The archaeologist T Sulimirski and the linguists I Duridanov and W Porzig are of the opinion that the Baltic, Thracian, and Dacian peoples were long neighbors to each other in the pre-Christian era."
    More accurate, the speakers of the proto-Balto-Slavic language and the speakers of Daco-Thracian language. Because i doubt that speakers of Baltic (in modern sense) had contact with those peoples.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Since it seems I am little too interested about the Celtic/Gaulish ethnicities, at the moment, I would like to also add this supposition:
    I2-din was brought from Central Europe and France, to Dacia and Balkans by the migrating Celtic/Gaulish tribes.
    Here is a list of Celtic tribes that settled in Dacia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...d_tribes#Dacia
    The the TMRCA of 2200 years ago is actually somehow more close to the migration of the Celtic ethnicities, than to those of Slavic speakers.
    And I am referring to the La Tene Celts.

    Please do not make a genetic confusion between the Celtic speakers of Britain and these Celtic speakers from Central Europe and France, that migrated East and established in the Balkans and in Dacia.
    As a side note, there are I2 branches that are present only in the British Isles.

    As a simple note, Dacians are known for wearing beards, but the tradition from Wallachia, Transylvania was to wear a moustache, at the peasants there.
    That is rather Gaulish/Keltic style.
    No idea about Moldavia, have not researched yet.

    A simple question is from where are all the dark haired , light skinned Ukrainians?
    Highly doubt that original Slavic speakers had any black hair. Dark brown, maybe, but very rare.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 23-01-19 at 21:01.

  25. #1400
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    943

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    So, what the people reading this thread think about the theory that I2-din was brought by the migrating Celts from Southern France and Central Europe, are these theories plausible?
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 23-01-19 at 15:22.

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