Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum

View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

Voters
198. You may not vote on this poll
  • Paleolithic continuity

    88 44.44%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 4.04%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 1.01%
  • The Sarmatians

    5 2.53%
  • The Slavs

    78 39.39%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    17 8.59%
Page 60 of 60 FirstFirst ... 1050585960
Results 1,476 to 1,490 of 1490

Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1476
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    230
    Points
    3,363
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,363, Level: 16
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.
    Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  2. #1477
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    366
    Points
    9,033
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,033, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 317
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.
    Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.

    Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

    Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
    http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

    Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting,
    http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.

  3. #1478
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    230
    Points
    3,363
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,363, Level: 16
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.

    Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

    Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
    http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

    Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting,
    http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.
    The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

    Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

    The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.

  4. #1479
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,489
    Points
    44,738
    Level
    65
    Points: 44,738, Level: 65
    Level completed: 38%, Points required for next Level: 812
    Overall activity: 25.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Surprising interpretations: sure, Celts make people to dream.

  5. #1480
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    366
    Points
    9,033
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,033, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 317
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

    Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

    The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.
    Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

    As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

  6. #1481
    Junior Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-11-16
    Posts
    8
    Points
    2,356
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,356, Level: 13
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 94
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

  7. #1482
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    29-08-16
    Posts
    6
    Points
    2,488
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,488, Level: 14
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 262
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Bulgaria



    Quote Originally Posted by tiami View Post
    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
    Welcome to my problem. All the people that are recorded disappear into the sea of "slavs". Various reasons are always given, as most common is that they were small band of elite and the good boys slavs were oppressed by them, until the elite died out and the slavs were all best friends. The whole "slav" thing was developed to fight germanisation in Austro-Hungary by the purest slavs - Imperial Russia. Later it was version 2.0 with communism. Don't worry, nothing makes sense with slavs, dont even bother.

  8. #1483
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    323
    Points
    2,698
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,698, Level: 14
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 52
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Albania



    Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
    And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

  9. #1484
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    111
    Points
    2,283
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,283, Level: 13
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
    And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
    And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
    By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

  10. #1485
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered
    Tutkun Arnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-03-18
    Posts
    358

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
    By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?
    have you seen Albanian people taking DNA tests through available DNA companies? If Albanians were Dacians should not the Romanians been genetically the closest group to Albanians? Have you not seen that Romania's are not the closet group to Albanians but Tuscan's and Greeks instead!? Is this the first time you read about genetics? Very naive question in your part!

  11. #1486
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    21-11-19
    Posts
    24
    Points
    297
    Level
    3
    Points: 297, Level: 3
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 53
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Czech Republic



    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    have you seen Albanian people taking DNA tests through available DNA companies? If Albanians were Dacians should not the Romanians been genetically the closest group to Albanians? Have you not seen that Romania's are not the closet group to Albanians but Tuscan's and Greeks instead!? Is this the first time you read about genetics? Very naive question in your part!
    Probably the genetic composition of populations changes little by little in each generation. In the absence of data about the genetic's of the ancestors of Romanians and Albanians over 2000 years ago, we can imagine many.

  12. #1487
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    892
    Points
    14,785
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,785, Level: 36
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 87.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by tiami View Post
    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
    Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
    basically this
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...igin_slavs.svg
    Romans have no records of slavs
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  13. #1488
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    892
    Points
    14,785
    Level
    36
    Points: 14,785, Level: 36
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 87.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
    And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
    you have no idea on how many different people settled in western balkans from iron-age dalmatian times to the gothic invasion of circa 400AD ............there are many races entered the area

  14. #1489
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered
    Tutkun Arnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-03-18
    Posts
    358

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Probably the genetic composition of populations changes little by little in each generation. In the absence of data about the genetic's of the ancestors of Romanians and Albanians over 2000 years ago, we can imagine many.
    so has changed the composition of Greeks and Toscans but still they are our closest genetic people, Which means Albanians have nothing to do with Dacians

  15. #1490
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    21-11-19
    Posts
    24
    Points
    297
    Level
    3
    Points: 297, Level: 3
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 53
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Czech Republic



    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    (...) Albanians have nothing to do with Dacians
    I wouldn't be so sure.

Page 60 of 60 FirstFirst ... 1050585960

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 56
    Last Post: 02-10-17, 18:44
  2. Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 107
    Last Post: 06-03-15, 14:23
  3. Reconstructing the Balkans
    By Duo in forum EU politics & government
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 05:09
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-10-11, 08:47
  5. Media freedom in the balkans
    By Elias2 in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-05-11, 16:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •