Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum

View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

Voters
228. You may not vote on this poll
  • Paleolithic continuity

    100 43.86%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    9 3.95%
  • Sea Peoples

    3 1.32%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.63%
  • The Slavs

    90 39.47%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    20 8.77%
Page 60 of 70 FirstFirst ... 10505859606162 ... LastLast
Results 1,476 to 1,500 of 1750

Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1476
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    235

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.
    Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  2. #1477
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    456

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331 > A2512*

    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.
    Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.

    Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

    Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
    http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

    Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting,
    http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.

  3. #1478
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    235

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.

    Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

    Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
    http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

    Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting,
    http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.
    The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

    Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

    The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.

  4. #1479
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,490

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Surprising interpretations: sure, Celts make people to dream.

  5. #1480
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    456

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331 > A2512*

    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

    Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

    The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.
    Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

    As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

  6. #1481
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    16-11-16
    Posts
    8


    Country: Yugoslavia



    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

  7. #1482
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    29-08-16
    Posts
    10


    Country: Bulgaria



    Quote Originally Posted by tiami View Post
    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
    Welcome to my problem. All the people that are recorded disappear into the sea of "slavs". Various reasons are always given, as most common is that they were small band of elite and the good boys slavs were oppressed by them, until the elite died out and the slavs were all best friends. The whole "slav" thing was developed to fight germanisation in Austro-Hungary by the purest slavs - Imperial Russia. Later it was version 2.0 with communism. Don't worry, nothing makes sense with slavs, dont even bother.

  8. #1483
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
    And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

  9. #1484
    Regular Member Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    134

    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Lesotho



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
    And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
    And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
    By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

  10. #1485
    Banned
    Join Date
    31-03-18
    Posts
    358

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
    By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?
    have you seen Albanian people taking DNA tests through available DNA companies? If Albanians were Dacians should not the Romanians been genetically the closest group to Albanians? Have you not seen that Romania's are not the closet group to Albanians but Tuscan's and Greeks instead!? Is this the first time you read about genetics? Very naive question in your part!

  11. #1486
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,368

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by tiami View Post
    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
    Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
    basically this
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...igin_slavs.svg
    Romans have no records of slavs
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  12. #1487
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,368

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
    And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
    you have no idea on how many different people settled in western balkans from iron-age dalmatian times to the gothic invasion of circa 400AD ............there are many races entered the area

  13. #1488
    Banned
    Join Date
    31-03-18
    Posts
    358

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Probably the genetic composition of populations changes little by little in each generation. In the absence of data about the genetic's of the ancestors of Romanians and Albanians over 2000 years ago, we can imagine many.
    so has changed the composition of Greeks and Toscans but still they are our closest genetic people, Which means Albanians have nothing to do with Dacians

  14. #1489
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    238

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    The Jewish and Balkan sub-branches of Y18331-A10959 separated an estimated 2,100 years ago, with no other people participating in the branches but Ashkenazi Jews in one branch and south Balkans people in the other. That is very intriguing to think about, where the MRCA could have lived at the time of separation.

  15. #1490
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-12-16
    Posts
    63


    Country: Serbia



    Ancient-DNA analysis of teeth and skeletal remains with utilization of miniSTR loci.

    In 4 samples from Prague-Břevnov dated in 12 century AD there are two I-CTS10228. Unfortunately, extraction of DYS448 was not successful for both samples, but according to DYS449 both samples should belong to I-PH908.
    Kit Number Paternal line info Place County Country Population/Ethnicity n Haplogroup DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS388 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS459 DYS447 DYS437 DYS449 DYS438 DYS444 DYS481 DYS446
    Zub 12 Ancient DNA 12 century AD Brevnov Prague Czech Republic I-PH908 13 24 16 11 14-15 13 13 11 30/31 8-10 15 30 10 10 31 13
    Zub 15 Ancient DNA 12 century AD Brevnov Prague Czech Republic I-PH908 13 24 11 15-15 13 12 11 29 9-10 25 15 28 10 13 31 13
    The second sample has unique value for DYS444=13
    I do not know if it is possible to find some more info about cemetery in Brevnov.
    Last edited by Vlad82; 04-04-20 at 15:23.

  16. #1491
    Regular Member Dalmat's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-02-10
    Posts
    265


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
    basically this
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...igin_slavs.svg
    Romans have no records of slavs
    Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
    The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

    I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
    That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch

  17. #1492
    Regular Member Szigmund's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-02-19
    Posts
    47

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2 I-S17250
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a1

    Country: Hungary



    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
    The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

    I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
    That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch
    This is the question of endonym and exonym, not Romans or not... For example the aformentioned "Celt" is a Greek name, not Roman (Latin). They called them Gaul/Gall.
    For example, Germany called Allemagne in French, from the name of Germanic tribe Alleman.

    And we also have late Roman names for Slavs, like Antes, Sclaveni or Vistula Veneti.

  18. #1493
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,490

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    That said, a big part of these "exonyms" are in fact local "endonyms', let 's not confuse everything. "Celt(os?)" is a Greek spelling for some local tribal Celtic name. The very question is that these "exonyms" or "exo-endonyms" reflect contacts and so gives some historical reality to some folks, spite they don't tell us too long about the self-identification and self-conscience of groups or affilied tribes or about their collective name if there was any.

  19. #1494
    Regular Member Szigmund's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-02-19
    Posts
    47

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2 I-S17250
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a1

    Country: Hungary



    What is your toughts on Mygrations map?
    It says about the the I-S17250 and its ancestors the following:
    Funnelbeaker-> Baden -> Corded Ware -> Unetice -> Urnfield -> La Tene -> Roman Empire

    So, I-S17250 can be considered as part of the La Tene culture?

  20. #1495
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    238

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

    As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.
    Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, thereabouts. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
    B083D682-3319-40EC-81BA-7C53A53B6E2C.jpg4B5E128D-9DAE-42D5-82DD-A6B5B957B9D2.jpg




    Last edited by Ralphie Boy; 20-04-20 at 04:53.

  21. #1496
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,960

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    @ Ralphie boy
    @ Demetrios

    hm
    could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #1497
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    456

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331 > A2512*

    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it also coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, but sooner. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
    Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

    yDNA Path to I-Y18331


    SNPTracker-migration


    SNPTracker-speed


    All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE),
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece, but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

    What is the source of your image to the left?

  23. #1498
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Location
    Ἀθῆναι
    Posts
    456

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331 > A2512*

    Ethnic group
    Ἕλλην
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Ralphie boy
    @ Demetrios

    hm
    could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?
    I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?

  24. #1499
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    238

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

    yDNA Path to I-Y18331


    SNPTracker-migration


    SNPTracker-speed


    All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE),
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece, but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

    What is the source of your image to the left?
    The other image is from a different SNP tracker in the link below. It uses YFull results whereas the other one uses FTDNA, I think.

    https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

  25. #1500
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,960

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?
    According Giannopoulos and archaiology the GrecoBrygians came before 2500 BC from Vucedol to lake Ohrid
    and from there went down to Mycaenae,

    so could this Ydna I be part of them?

Page 60 of 70 FirstFirst ... 10505859606162 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 56
    Last Post: 02-10-17, 17:44
  2. Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 107
    Last Post: 06-03-15, 14:23
  3. Reconstructing the Balkans
    By Duo in forum EU politics & government
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 04:09
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-10-11, 07:47
  5. Media freedom in the balkans
    By Elias2 in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-05-11, 15:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •