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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

Voters
195. You may not vote on this poll
  • Paleolithic continuity

    86 44.10%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 4.10%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 1.03%
  • The Sarmatians

    5 2.56%
  • The Slavs

    77 39.49%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    17 8.72%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.
    Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  2. #1477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0.
    Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.

    Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

    Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
    http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

    Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting,
    http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.

  3. #1478
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece. TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.

    Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names.

    Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png
    http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg

    Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting,
    http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909. For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.
    The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

    Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

    The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.

  4. #1479
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Surprising interpretations: sure, Celts make people to dream.

  5. #1480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

    Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

    The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.
    Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

    As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

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    So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

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