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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    97 44.91%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 3.70%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 0.93%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.78%
  • The Slavs

    85 39.35%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1501
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    The other image is from a different SNP tracker in the link below. It uses YFull results whereas the other one uses FTDNA, I think.

    https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/
    Thank you.

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    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    According Giannopoulos and archaiology the GrecoBrygians came before 2500 BC from Vucedol to lake Ohrid
    and from there went down to Mycaenae,

    so could this Ydna I be part of them?
    The evidence we have till now shows that I-Y3120>Y18331 came way later in the Balkans. Therefore unrelated to the cultures of the Vučedol, Četina, and Balkano-Lower Danubian complex i presented here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=598415&viewfull=1#post598415, associated with the Graeco-Phrygians and subsequent proto-Greeks. All current evidence suggests that I-Y18331 came as a result of the Celtic expansion in the Balkans during the Hellenistic period.

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    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The evidence we have till now shows that I-Y3120>Y18331 came way later in the Balkans. Therefore unrelated to the cultures of the Vučedol, Četina, and Balkano-Lower Danubian complex i presented here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=598415&viewfull=1#post598415, associated with the Graeco-Phrygians and subsequent proto-Greeks. All current evidence suggests that I-Y18331 came as a result of the Celtic expansion in the Balkans during the Hellenistic period.
    by term Hellenistic you mean after Alexandros era,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  4. #1504
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    by term Hellenistic you mean after Alexandros era,
    Yeah, and more precisely sometime between 279 BCE (year that the Celts invaded Greece and also foundation of Tylis in 277 BCE) and 0 BCE/CE (generally sometime after 100 BCE which is the TMRCA of I-Y18331 per YFull). Very likely it was after the destruction of Tylis in 212 BCE that might have pushed its residents towards the South.

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    I-Y18331 are almost certainly Bastarnae who never joined the pre-Slavs. Obviously this clade is not Slavic and the only way to explain the diversity of other clades as well as their participation in Slavic ethnogenesis is through Bastarnae. Bastarnae did play part in such ethnogenesis, where the archeological evidence is very clear. The Greek clade corresponds nicely to the Bastarnae-Dardani war. Bastarnae were part of Jastrof culture early migratory wave and as such they were different from the other subsequent Germanic movements and strong Celtic element is definitely plausible. Though as some archeoligist put it "Bastarnae were not really Germanic or Celtic, Bastarnae were Bastarnae".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I-Y18331 are almost certainly Bastarnae who never joined the pre-Slavs. Obviously this clade is not Slavic and the only way to explain the diversity of other clades as well as their participation in Slavic ethnogenesis is through Bastarnae. Bastarnae did play part in such ethnogenesis, where the archeological evidence is very clear. The Greek clade corresponds nicely to the Bastarnae-Dardani war. Bastarnae were part of Jastrof culture early migratory wave and as such they were different from the other subsequent Germanic movements and strong Celtic element is definitely plausible. Though as some archeoligist put it "Bastarnae were not really Germanic or Celtic, Bastarnae were Bastarnae".
    Also. Philip of macedon asked them to migrate to Macedonia....80000 came to eventually settle in Moesia
    at the invitation of their long-time ally, King Philip V of Macedon, a direct descendant of Antigonus, one of the Diadochi, the generals of Alexander the Great who had shared his empire after his death in 323 BC. The Macedonian king had suffered a disastrous defeat at the hands of the Romans in the Second Macedonian War (200–197 BC), which had reduced him from a powerful Hellenistic monarch to the status of a petty client-king with a much-reduced territory and a tiny army.

    They seem to have come from modern slovakia
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, thereabouts. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
    Attachment 12006Attachment 12007




    The Celts were knocking around the Balkans for about 100 years in the 3rd century BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The Celts were knocking around the Balkans for about 100 years in the 3rd century BC.
    yes they where

    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/



    and

    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-tribes-balkans/

    https://www.academia.edu/10763789/On...ia_280_279_BC_

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    After the defeat of the Macedonian army by the Celts most of the Thracian settlements fell under Celtic control rather peacefully. It will be interesting to find out the genetic imprint of the Celts throughout the Balkans.

  10. #1510
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The SNP tracker using YFull samples has the migration estimate going though La Tene territory ca. 500BC, toward the south Balkans. Going by this tracker, one sub-branch, Y66192, may have moved into Greece in 100-400AD. The estimated split in the Balkan and Jewish branches under A10959 happened 2,100 years ago, a long time since ancestors were in the same branch. Where they lived together would be interesting to find out.

    B6937F92-E9C3-49FD-B905-4D9595EE6020.jpgE6D406C3-504C-473C-89E1-2F9D78C76533.jpg

  11. #1511
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I-Y18331 are almost certainly Bastarnae who never joined the pre-Slavs. Obviously this clade is not Slavic and the only way to explain the diversity of other clades as well as their participation in Slavic ethnogenesis is through Bastarnae. Bastarnae did play part in such ethnogenesis, where the archeological evidence is very clear. The Greek clade corresponds nicely to the Bastarnae-Dardani war. Bastarnae were part of Jastrof culture early migratory wave and as such they were different from the other subsequent Germanic movements and strong Celtic element is definitely plausible. Though as some archeoligist put it "Bastarnae were not really Germanic or Celtic, Bastarnae were Bastarnae".
    I see what you write, and i am not negating the possibility of a Bastarnae origin. Bastarnae seem to have been very much associated with the Celts. Possibly even a Celtic tribe originally?

    Furthermore, how does the Bastarnae-Dardani war fit with the presence of I-Y18831 in Greece? Didn't all of the Bastarnae perish, or almost all? Did any of them even settle in Macedon (under Philip V)?

    And last, Bastarnae migrated and settled in a number of other regions as well, such as southern Ukraine and Moesia. Wouldn't we expect to see a much larger distribution of I-Y18331 in this broader Moesian, Carpathian, and southern-Ukrainian region? Unless you suggest for the origin of I-Y3120 in a I-Y18331 context, to have been from Bastarnae, and the clade formation of I-Y18331 to have taken place in Greece, but even in such a case, is there a historical context of a Bastarnae settlement in Greece before 100 BCE, which is seen as the formation and TMRCA of I-Y18331?

    Again, i am not negating your suggestion. I am only trying to understand how do all the pieces fit together.

  12. #1512
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    @Ralphie Boy

    as concerns the Galates, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatians_(people)

    is there any finding in today Central Turkey?

  13. #1513
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    I think this video can be connected to the I2-Din travelling routes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLrM...ature=youtu.be

  14. #1514
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    I think this video can be connected to the I2-Din travelling routes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLrM...ature=youtu.be
    According to the video Slavic ethnogenesis happened further east than where much of I2a-Dinaric is found today.

    According to available evidence, CTS10228 originated further west, where we have two basal samples, one from France and one from Germany. The SNP trackers reflect the available evidence though they are just models and would be made more robust by more samples.

    The split below A10959, separating Balkan people from Ashkenazi Jews, may have happened long ago enough to not have Jews and south Balkan people in each other’s subbranches. Something has to explain the distinct characteristics of each subbranch.

  15. #1515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    According to the video Slavic ethnogenesis happened further east than where much of I2a-Dinaric is found today.

    According to available evidence, CTS10228 originated further west, where we have two basal samples, one from France and one from Germany. The SNP trackers reflect the available evidence though they are just models and would be made more robust by more samples.

    The split below A10959, separating Balkan people from Ashkenazi Jews, may have happened long ago enough to not have Jews and south Balkan people in each other’s subbranches. Something has to explain the distinct characteristics of each subbranch.
    I am very interested in this. As some calculators put me relatively close to Ashkenazis autosomally... I say relatively because its either 5th + match or its just expressed as a component in the multi component mode of the analysis.

    How long ago would you say Ashkenazis and Balkan populations are related?
    Also which Y DNA branches are we talking about? Except l2a-Din are there any other branches distantly related to the Balkans?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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  16. #1516
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Regarding the question of why western Jews autosomally diverged from their original Levantine macro-cluster, there are a number of hypotheses. I have written this again in another post more or less. It is almost certain that some must have coalesced in Greek-inhabited areas, but to what extent i am not sure. Take special notice of the fact that in the past Judaism used to be very proselytist (actually the word proselytism originally referred to Judaism conversion). If i recall correctly, Judaism only ceased proselytizing under imposition by its relative sects and the Roman Empire. Along these lines have a look at the following map showing that in the 1st-2nd centuries CE, the Jewish diaspora was mainly concentrated in Greek-inhabited areas.



    What i also found interesting was their names, such as Ashkenazim and Sephardim. Sephardim comes from the place-name Sepharad which in a Biblical context is uncertain, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepharad. It has been associated with Sardis in Lydia, but since the late Roman period Spanish Jews gave the name Sepharad to the Iberian peninsula. Maybe they took it with them, and then applied it to their new homeland. Bear in mind that in the map i shared above, western Anatolia does appear to have the largest concentration of attested synagogues during the 1st-2nd centuries CE, including one in Sardis.

    Ashkenazim comes from the Biblical name Ashkenaz, who was one of the descendants of Noah. It is also an obscure Biblical name. The early attestations also associate it with Anatolia, namely with Phrygia, Armenia, and northern Anatolia. Here is also a map that relates.



    Maybe all these can be seen as corroborations for a western Anatolian hypothesis, if not broadly Aegean. Then there is also the hypothesis that western Jews (especially Ashkenazim Jews) tend to cluster in the "Mediterranean genetic continuum" because they have a bit more northern European admixture compared to other Levantine populations, and thus this mix would place them close to Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands. The origin of western Jews is a very big subject with plenty of hypotheses, sometimes contradicting.

    But let's get back to the map of the Jewish diaspora during the 1st-2nd centuries CE, and try to hypothesize where the split below I-A10959 could have happened, separating southern Balkan people from Ashkenazim Jews. I would bet for the city of Stobi in ancient Paeonia. Although i believe the map is wrong concerning its location, it would be slightly more to the East, parallel to where Béroée (Veria) is shown to its South. Location wise it would explain the division between I-Y66192 with its Greek, Albanian, and North Macedonian samples, and the I-Y23115 (designated as "Jewish Diaspora cluster"),
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/113OE6SO0CORf_mw0OETnAy2qQ04gFMad/view.

    Nothing dogmatic in what i share, only suggestions.

  17. #1517
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Regarding the question of why western Jews autosomally diverged from their original Levantine macro-cluster, there are a number of hypotheses. I have written this again in another post more or less. It is almost certain that some must have coalesced in Greek-inhabited areas, but to what extent i am not sure. Take special notice of the fact that in the past Judaism used to be very proselytist (actually the word proselytism originally referred to Judaism conversion). If i recall correctly, Judaism only ceased proselytizing under imposition by its relative sects and the Roman Empire. Along these lines have a look at the following map showing that in the 1st-2nd centuries CE, the Jewish diaspora was mainly concentrated in Greek-inhabited areas.



    What i also found interesting was their names, such as Ashkenazim and Sephardim. Sephardim comes from the place-name Sepharad which in a Biblical context is uncertain, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepharad. It has been associated with Sardis in Lydia, but since the late Roman period Spanish Jews gave the name Sepharad to the Iberian peninsula. Maybe they took it with them, and then applied it to their new homeland. Bear in mind that in the map i shared above, western Anatolia does appear to have the largest concentration of attested synagogues during the 1st-2nd centuries CE, including one in Sardis.

    Ashkenazim comes from the Biblical name Ashkenaz, who was one of the descendants of Noah. It is also an obscure Biblical name. The early attestations also associate it with Anatolia, namely with Phrygia, Armenia, and northern Anatolia. Here is also a map that relates.



    Maybe all these can be seen as corroborations for a western Anatolian hypothesis, if not broadly Aegean. Then there is also the hypothesis that western Jews (especially Ashkenazim Jews) tend to cluster in the "Mediterranean genetic continuum" because they have a bit more northern European admixture compared to other Levantine populations, and thus this mix would place them close to Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands. The origin of western Jews is a very big subject with plenty of hypotheses, sometimes contradicting.

    But let's get back to the map of the Jewish diaspora during the 1st-2nd centuries CE, and try to hypothesize where the split below I-A10959 could have happened, separating southern Balkan people from Ashkenazim Jews. I would bet for the city of Stobi in ancient Paeonia. Although i believe the map is wrong concerning its location, it would be slightly more to the East, parallel to where Béroée (Veria) is shown to its South. Location wise it would explain the division between I-Y66192 with its Greek, Albanian, and North Macedonian samples, and the I-Y23115 (designated as "Jewish Diaspora cluster"),
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/113OE6SO0CORf_mw0OETnAy2qQ04gFMad/view.

    Nothing dogmatic in what i share, only suggestions.
    Out of upvotes for today... So I am thanking you in writing for the high quality content you output. Very interesting read the one above, as are most of your posts.

  18. #1518
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Out of upvotes for today... So I am thanking you in writing for the high quality content you output. Very interesting read the one above, as are most of your posts.
    Thanks mate.

  19. #1519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Thanks mate.
    Per YFull there are new sub-branches under Y66192, Y182158 and below that Y182752. Greeks are in every Y18331 sub-branch as well as Y18331*. What is your opinion as to when Y18331 entered Greece, as seen by the samples today? Do you think it was a one-time migration or did it happen in different events?
    6DE174A9-489E-4496-8494-4749512E76BA.jpg

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    I have another question; how important are haplogroups in determining a peoples ethnic identity?

  21. #1521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Per YFull there are new sub-branches under Y66192, Y182158 and below that Y182752. Greeks are in every Y18331 sub-branch as well as Y18331*. What is your opinion as to when Y18331 entered Greece, as seen by the samples today? Do you think it was a one-time migration or did it happen in different events?
    6DE174A9-489E-4496-8494-4749512E76BA.jpg
    I continue to stand by my last hypothesis. Namely, for I-Y3120 to have been pushed into Greece after the destruction of the Celtic settlement of Tylis in 212 BCE. They would have probably re-settled somewhere within Greek Macedonia. After some 100 years we have the creation and TMRCA of Ι-Υ18331 per YFull.

    Then again, i don't discard the hypothesis of @Aspurg. It could also be Bastarnae who carried I-Y3120 in Greek Macedonia, at approximately 180-170 BCE. They were also probably a Celtic tribe originally, especially during that early time that concerns us.

  22. #1522
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Per YFull there are new sub-branches under Y66192, Y182158 and below that Y182752. Greeks are in every Y18331 sub-branch as well as Y18331*. What is your opinion as to when Y18331 entered Greece, as seen by the samples today? Do you think it was a one-time migration or did it happen in different events?
    6DE174A9-489E-4496-8494-4749512E76BA.jpg
    It turns out my supposition was correct after all, although in part. I am indeed also a member of I-Y18331. Though to my surprise i am not under the same subclade (I-A7134>Y32624) as the sample from Messenia (Antonopoulos - N80837/YF04184), which is where my paternal family originates from, specifically Gargalianoi. I am I-A2512*, namely ancestral for both I-A7134 and I-A10959. Right now there are only two confirmed people with that designation. One is me (a Panagiotopoulos), and the second is a Greek sample from the island of Thassos (the so-called Kavala sample in YFull) in the north Aegean, namely Oikonomidis (or Economides) - 493284/YF07857. There is a third Greek sample that is included in the chart of the "I2a Y-Haplogroup" project in FTDNA as I-A2512*, namely Flytzanis - 887728 from the island of Fournoi, but he is unconfirmed and could very likely be under I-A10959 (for which he hasn't been tested, only for I-A7134). Here are my results for the record. I went with the "I2a-M423 Panel" by YSEQ.



    YP196 is simply another designation/SNP for I-Y3120.

  23. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I continue to stand by my last hypothesis. Namely, for I-Y3120 to have been pushed into Greece after the destruction of the Celtic settlement of Tylis in 212 BCE. They would have probably re-settled somewhere within Greek Macedonia. After some 100 years we have the creation and TMRCA of Ι-Υ18331 per YFull.

    Then again, i don't discard the hypothesis of @Aspurg. It could also be Bastarnae who carried I-Y3120 in Greek Macedonia, at approximately 180-170 BCE. They were also probably a Celtic tribe originally, especially during that early time that concerns us.
    So do you think that I-Y3120 was Celtic, and I-Y18331 was Bastarnae. Then what about I-S17250? They get separated from the Bastarnea, and became membes "local" Celtic tribes in Northern parts (todays Poland and similar areas)?

  24. #1524
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    So do you think that I-Y3120 was Celtic, and I-Y18331 was Bastarnae. Then what about I-S17250? They get separated from the Bastarnea, and became membes "local" Celtic tribes in Northern parts (todays Poland and similar areas)?
    I am not a proponent of Bastarnae as a proxy of at least I-Y3120 > Y18331. I first read it from @Aspurg, and then i also read it in another thread from another member (can't recall his/her name). I personally have objections with it, specifically for I-Y18331, although i am not sure about I-Y3120's other three major subclades. As for I-Y3120 in general, i do view it as Celtic in origin. I believe it expanded both towards eastern Europe (could be with the Bastarnae) and S-Balkans/Greece (i am a proponent of the Celts of Tylis) during the 3rd-2nd centuries BCE. Its predominantly Slavic subclades, namely I-Z17855, I-Y4460, and I-S17250, formed in eastern Europe and participated in the proto-Slavic ethnogenesis, while an independent migration towards S-Balkans/Greece formed I-Y18331. Here is also a nice Y-Tree i found the other day, to give you a broader perspective of I-P37.


  25. #1525
    Regular Member Szigmund's Avatar
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    22-02-19
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2 I-S17250
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a1

    Country: Hungary



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I am not a proponent of Bastarnae as a proxy of at least I-Y3120 > Y18331. I first read it from @Aspurg, and then i also read it in another thread from another member (can't recall his/her name). I personally have objections with it, specifically for I-Y18331, although i am not sure about I-Y3120's other three major subclades. As for I-Y3120 in general, i do view it as Celtic in origin. I believe it expanded both towards eastern Europe (could be with the Bastarnae) and S-Balkans/Greece (i am a proponent of the Celts of Tylis) during the 3rd-2nd centuries BCE. Its predominantly Slavic subclades, namely I-Z17855, I-Y4460, and I-S17250, formed in eastern Europe and participated in the proto-Slavic ethnogenesis, while an independent migration towards S-Balkans/Greece formed I-Y18331. Here is also a nice Y-Tree i found the other day, to give you a broader perspective of I-P37.

    Wow, what a fast answer, thank you!

    I know this tree, but my pervertion is connect hgs with archeological cultures, and this picture don't mention any of them.

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