How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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According to Hg.predictor Nevgen:
Sample no.17 is Y-I2a1b3a and belong to mtDNA H6a1
Sample no.12 iis Y-I2a1b3a and belong to mtDNA haplogroup A12.

Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA haplotypes and Y-chromosome haplogroups in a small cemetery
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-016-1267-z

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rian-conquerors-inferred-from-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA

This places I2a1b-"Din" from the Ukrainian direction. IIRC its highest diversity was found there and makes sense with the Magyar migrations:

hungarian-emap.GIF
 
I2a-Din is a Slavic haplogroup everybody should know this. The Illyrian theory has been debunked also no I2a-Din has ever been found in the ancient Balkans
 
The current information, provided by Maciamo, about Haplogroup I2a1b (M423) lacks previous connection with Illyrians and currently considers it's expansion to the Balkan to have occured only with Slavic migration. There several issues with this consideration:

1) It's solely based on contemporary frequency in East European populations.

2) It's no based on critical and empirical approach as there are not enough evidence from Middle Age, Ancient and older sources from both East and Southeast Europe.

3) The conclusion is a simple ideological construction which ignores the possibility the haplgroup was widespread in both East and Southeast Europe, as well ignores the recent archeological research which concluded that there was no mass migration of Slavs, the Balkan i.e. Yugoslavian territory was not „uninhabited“ like previously ideologically considered by the historians, which emerged from 19th century romantic-idealistic historiography, and especially that the Croats and Serbs were only small tribes (neither migrated from western Ukraine), i.e. the population ethogenesis didn't change drastically, but the political and cultural/ethnical identity changed, in a similar way like during the Roman Empire when the indigenous population was Romanized, while after the fall of WRE and consolidation of Slavic policy the indigenous population was Slavicized through the centuries.

For example I will give another chronology in which will show that the age, both formation and TMRCA, do not correspond with the Slavic expansion i.e. migration to the Balkan at all. According to Yfull Ytree v5.02 (YBP calculated from 1950):

--- I-M423 (18,006 YBP): peak of LGM 18,000 YBP
---- I-Y3104 (13,655 YBP)
----- I-L621 (11,311 YBP): beginning of interglacial Holocene
------ I-CTS4002 (6,250 YBP): it corresponds to both early Cucuteni-Trypillian kulture in Romania-Ukraine, as well early Hvar-Lisičići culture in Dalmatia, and the end of Vinča culture.
------- I-CTS10228 (5,062 YBP): partial end of Cucuteni-Trypillian culure, end of Hvar-Lisičići culture, Indo-European expansion (R1a, R1b) in Europe
-------- I-S17250 (2,331 YBP: 381 BCE): see below
--------- TMRCA of I-S17250 is 1,731 YBP (219 CE) according to formation age of subclades I-Y4882 (1,993 YBP), I-Y5596 (1,972 YBP), I-Y30729 (2,346 YBP), I-PH908 (1,802 YBP) and many other individual sub-mutations, with personal speculation that to the I-Y5596 or I-PG908 subclades possibly belong most I2a-Dinaric in the Balkan.
---------- The I-Y5596 has TMRCA 1,658 YBP (292 CE) i.e it mostly branches into I-Z16971 (1,886 YBP: 64 CE), which TMRCA 1,478 YBP (472 CE) which drastically varies mostly between I-A815 (1,658 YBP) and I-Y12911 (917 YBP) i.e. 292-1033 CE, while the sample ID of other two alone branch ID is 1,924 YBP and 1,416 YBP i.e. 26-534 CE.
---------- The I-PG908 (in its own „info“ has TMRCA 1,879 YBP: 71 CE) branches into I-Z16983 (1,715 YBP: 235 CE), which TMRCA of 1,321 YBP, due to small number of branch ID, is calculated with I-Y4789 (1,633 YBP) with 7 sample ID and only 1 sample of YF07968 from 1,010 YBP which gives disproportionate 1,321 YBP, thus will only consider age of I-Y4789 which further branches. Its TMRCA is 1,618 YBP (332 CE), calculated with limited 7 samples which form a formula (2,192 YBP+1,282 YBP+1,177 YBP+1821 YBP)/4.

In short, if the formation age and TMRCA are compared to historical events, like formation or migration of specific ethnical/cultural identity, then it empirically can not be used as a support i.e it absolutely no way indicates a correlation with Slavic expansion in Eastern Europe, more specifically, migration from Eeastern Europe toward Balkan between 550-750 CE.

Not only that, even the ethnogenesis origin of Slavic people, quote: „According to Polish historian Gerard Labuda, the ethnogenesis of Slavic people is the Trzciniec culture[37] from about 1700 to 1200 BC. The Milograd culture hypothesis posits that the pre-Proto-Slavs (or Balto-Slavs) originated in the seventh century BC–first century AD culture of northern Ukraine and southern Belarus. According to the Chernoles culture theory, the pre-Proto-Slavs originated in the 1025–700 BC culture of northern Ukraine and the third century BC–first century AD Zarubintsy culture. According to the Lusatian culture hypothesis, they were present in north-eastern Central Europe in the 1300–500 BC culture and the second century BC–fourth century AD Przeworsk culture“ does not correlate anyhow with the formation age and TMRCA of older subclades I-CTS10228 and I-S17250.

It can be theorized that the formation of I2a-Dinaric i.e. I-CTS10228 (3,112 BCE) was caused by some climate or social-historical events which caused the expansion, for example of the population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian and other cultures, and their change of lifestyle from mostly sedentary to nomadic or vice versa, and were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b).

However, the problem with the migration theory, according to which the populations with I2a-Dinaric originally lived in Carphatian Mountains and near Vistula River, which were slavicized making the Proto-Slavs with R1a in that area and only after then migrated to the south, is in the fact that between I-CTS10228 and I-S17250 is a time difference in formation of incredible 2,731 years or at least 136-109 generations. It indicates an extreme isolation and social-historical events which did not support the formation of new subclades, while in Europe at the time was period of Bronze Age and Iron Age. It is impossible that in such active and developing social-historical events in Western, Central and Eastern Europe, there was no mutation for almost 3,000 years in population who was allegedly located in Central-Eastern Europe. Such an extreme isolation at the time could have only happen in Southeast Europe i.e Dinaric Alps and Balkan mountains.

This difference in 2,731 years could be explained by autochthonous theory i.e. multidisciplinary by archeological research. According to Alojz Benac, who analyzed archeological and ethno-cultural elements on Western Balkan (mostly area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Western Serbia, Kosovo, part of Dalmatia and Albania), and A. Stipčević (1991), gave the most plausible and best formulated theory on the origin of Illyrians. According to Benac there exist four stages of development in Illyrian tribal communities:

1) „Pre-Illyrians“ are basic substrate which emerged along other groups in the end of Neolithic (Baden, Kostolac, Vučedol, culture with ribbon ceramics and Bell Beaker did not serve as a substrate yet as an additional element, and their disappearance is linked to the movement of the Indo-Europeans from the east). According to Benac, the research in 1970s during this period recorded a duration of Neolithic retardation throughout the Chalcolithic or Copper Age, in which the primary role played the Hvar-Lisičići (note Brač, Korčula and Hvar 54-67%, Herzegovina c. 70% I2a-Dinaric) and the Adriatic variant of the Vučedol culture.

2) „Proto-Illyrians“ developed in the period of Indo-Europeans expansion, and in the end of Neolithic on Balkan occured „Illyrization“. According to research of the settlements and culture there was no immigration in the Bronze Age, so in the location of Glasinac can be seen uninterrupted development of culture from Bronze to Iron Age.

3) „Early-Illyrians“ developed in the end of Bronze Age at the time of so-called Dorian migration c. 1,200 BCE, and spread of Urnfield culture, which did not significantly affect the stability on the narrow part of Western Balkan or Illyrian ethnogenesis.
4) „Illyrians“ developed in the Iron Age.

According to Benac, like other archeologists, there's clear difference and existence of sub-groups among Illyrians i.e. generally one narrow area between river Aoös/Vjosë and Mat in Albania (note high E1b1b), and one wide area along the Adriatic coast and its hinterland (note high I2a-Dinaric). While in the narrow area the main role had Neolithic and Eneolithic (Copper) cultures type Maliq, elements of Baden and Kostolac, some from Epir-Macedonia, and Vučedol-Corded Ware; in the wide area is distinctively backward Hvar-Lisičići component (later substrate and part of Illyrian tribes in Bosnia and Herzegovina, e.g. Dassareti and Autariatae) and late Vučedol culture group (Ljubljansko Barje type).

The sudden formation of I-S17250 (2,331 YBP: 381 BCE) directly corresponds to the Celtic invasion/settlement of Southeastern Europe in the 4th century BCE and political degradation of the many Illyrian tribes in the hinterland, including the „the once greatest and most powerful Illyrian people“ (Strabo) tribe of Autariatae (between river Bosnia and Drina), Ardiaei (between Neretva and Albania), Dardani and so on.

Strabo, Book VII, Chapter 5: "for those who were most powerful in earlier times were utterly humbled or were obliterated, as, for example, among the Galatae the Boii and the Scordistae, and among the Illyrians the Autariatae, Ardiaei, and Dardanii, and among the Thracians the Triballi; that is, they were reduced in warfare by one another at first and then later by the Macedonians and the Romans... Now the Autariatae were once the largest and best tribe of the Illyrians. In earlier times they were continually at war with the Ardiaei over the salt-works on the common frontiers... At one time when the Autariatae had subdued the Triballi, whose territory extended from that of the Agrianes as far as the Ister, a journey of fifteen days, they held sway also over the rest of the Thracians and the Illyrians; but they were overpowered, at first by the Scordisci, and later on by the Romans, who also subdued the Scordisci themselves, after these had been in power for a long time".

At the time many tribes fought against the Macedonians, while later Roman-Illyrian wars from 3rd century BCE were only the start of end. Thing which is indicative, is that in the same period (4th century BCE) is dated the first historical, at least constant, mention of the Illyrians, and that their tribes are losing political influence due to mutual (due to various reasons) wars and better organized and developed Celts.

Those same Illyrians did not vanish in the literal sense of the Ancient chronicles, yet their ethno-political influence vanished and as such is of no interest to foreign historians or policies. After the Macedonian and Celtic events, the Roman used the situation to expand and succeeded. The Illyrians culture and hillforts are destroyed or arrogate, and they're Romanized (in the wide area, not in narrow Albania) from which emerged a mass population later known as semi-romanized Vlachs.

The TMRCA of I-S17250 (219 CE) i.e. its subclades between 332-472 CE could indicate: Constitutio Antoniniana granted citizenship in 212 CE to all free Roman Empire men, later Crisis of the Third Century (235–284 CE); invasion of the Goths and Huns which caused many social distortions and migrations, and as result end of the Roman Empire in 476 CE. There is no need that I-S17250 was located only north of Danube because these events/migrations could have influencedpopulations on both side of the Danube border. However, they do not indicate later 550-750 migration of the Slavs.

The issue with the I2a-Dinaric Slavic migration theory are, beside these age differences which do not correlate with Slavic migration, archeological research which showed that there was no mass migration nor Balkan was uninhabited, rather can be followed continuity of cultural sources between Ancient and Middle Ages. With this agree historians whether about history or identity of Illyrians and Croats (i.e. Slavs) in the Balkan (D. Džino and F. Curta), as well genetic research which are in correlation "Father Tongue hypothesis" i.e. Mother Tongue and Y Chromosomes (Science, 2011): "focusing on prehistoric language shift in already settled areas, examples worldwide show that as little as 10-20% of prehistoric male immigration can (but need not) cause a language switch, indicating an elite imposition such as may have happened with the appearance of the first farmers or metalworkers in the neolithic, bronze and iron ages", with the fact the recent "Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype databse" (2012) with 1,100 Y-DNA samples divided in five regions of Croatia showed in eastern, southern and western 18.64-20.00%, while in central and northern 23.64-29.09% of R1a; while according to Eupedia, percentage in BiH is 15%, Serbia 16%, Bulgaria 17%, Macedonia 13.5%, and Montenegro 7.5%, which arrived with the Slavs in Middle Age (2016 research consideration). The I2a showed exactly the opposite regional percentage in Croatia, from northern and central 25.45-31.82%, western and eastern 36.82-40.00%, southern 54.55%.
It's also based on the fact that there are no I2a-Din samples ever found in the Balkans
 
https://www.academia.edu/1246700/Wh...story_in_Early_Medieval_Europe_19_2011_204-31

What if I2a1b-Din is Onogur-Bulgarian?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onogurs

From the 8th century, the Byzantine sources often mention the Onoğurs in close connection with the Bulgars. Agathon (early 8th century) wrote about the nation of Onoğurs Bulğars. Nikephoros I (early 9th century) noted that Kubrat was the lord of the Onoğundurs; his contemporary Theophanes referred to them as Onoğundur–Bulğars. Kubrat successfully revolted against the Avars and founded the Old Great Bulgaria (Magna Bulgaria[27]), also known as Onoğundur–Bulğars state, or Patria Onoguria in the Ravenna Cosmography.[28][29][21] Constantine VII (mid-10th century) remarked that the Bulğars formerly called themselves Onoğundurs.[30]
 
There's a difference between Huns and Avars, the relation between I2a-Din and Turkic or Hungarian tribes is a simple nonsense and not worth commenting. Think before you post such "theories" :LOL:

I2a-Din is a Slavic haplogroup everybody should know this. The Illyrian theory has been debunked also no I2a-Din has ever been found in the ancient Balkans

No debunk, still now evidence it is a Slavic haplogroup, the argument about no I2a-Din sample from ancient Balkans is uncritical because no ancient sample with the haplogroup was found
whatsoever in whole Europe.
 
There is absolutely no evidence for the Slavic origin of I2a1b.
But of course,if you repeat a lie often enoug,it becomes the truth.
 
I2a1b-"Din" is higher amount in Eastern Europe(Ukraine-Poland area) than it is in the Balkans. Not to speak of its high diversity there while Balkans has a recent influx of it with low diversity.

The only I2 found in the Ancient times is from Iron Gates(Romania/Serbia) border & Bulgaria is I2a2, now in modern populations:

Haplogroup-I2b.gif


This is completely absent in majority of the South Slavs, which strongly suggests most South Slavs are a recent transplant to the Balkans through the low-diversity I2a1b-"Din".
 
There is absolutely no evidence for the Slavic origin of I2a1b.
But of course,if you repeat a lie often enoug,it becomes the truth.
Looking at most maps, Slavs in the Northeastern Europe are a combination of R1a & I2a1b-"Din" in majority.
 
I have never seen any ancient slavic I2a1b yet.So what's the evidence?
 
I have never seen any ancient slavic I2a1b yet.So what's the evidence?
Older clades are found in Ukrainians and Poles.

I already linked the Magyar conquerors map and they passed through the entirety of Ukraine.
 
I2a1b-"Din" is higher amount in Eastern Europe(Ukraine-Poland area) than it is in the Balkans. Not to speak of its high diversity there while Balkans has a recent influx of it with low diversity.

The only I2 found in the Ancient times is from Iron Gates(Romania/Serbia) border & Bulgaria is I2a2, now in modern populations:

Haplogroup-I2b.gif


This is completely absent in majority of the South Slavs, which strongly suggests most South Slavs are a recent transplant to the Balkans through the low-diversity I2a1b-"Din".
8753–8351 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia I2a1
5780-5640 calBCE Koros_Hungary_ I2a1
4491-4357 calBCE Lengyel_LN Hungary I2a1
6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a1
6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a1
8280-7967 calBCE Vasil'evka .. Ukraine I2a1
3360-3086 calBCE Esperstedt Germany I2a1b1a1
2900-2679 calBCE El Mirador Cave, Atapuerca, Burgos Spain I2a1a1a
5310-5078 calBCE Iberia_EN I2a1b1


6655-6225 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia I2
7340-6640 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Romania I2

Illyrian friend come down.

This are just some i collected from the recent paper,i believe there were more.
 
8753–8351 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia I2a1
5780-5640 calBCE Koros_Hungary_ I2a1
4491-4357 calBCE Lengyel_LN Hungary I2a1
6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a1
6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a1
8280-7967 calBCE Vasil'evka .. Ukraine I2a1
3360-3086 calBCE Esperstedt Germany I2a1b1a1
2900-2679 calBCE El Mirador Cave, Atapuerca, Burgos Spain I2a1a1a
5310-5078 calBCE Iberia_EN I2a1b1


6655-6225 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia I2
7340-6640 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Romania I2

Illyrian friend come down.

This are just some i collected from the recent paper,i believe there were more.
The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic. The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a population. This I2-L147.2 ancestor would have such an impact on the burgeoning Early Slavic population, still small 2,300 years ago, but booming.


From Eastern Europe 1800~ years ago.


Ken Nordtvedt has more authority in this than anyone else. You can debate with him.

I2a1b-"Din" is just a new clade with low diversity in the Balkans and high in Northeastern Europe.
 
The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic. The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a population. This I2-L147.2 ancestor would have such an impact on the burgeoning Early Slavic population, still small 2,300 years ago, but booming.


From Eastern Europe 1800~ years ago.


Ken Nordtvedt has more authority in this than anyone else. You can debate with him.
Please spare me from your wishful thinking even more from amateurs such is Ken Nordvedt a man specializing a theory of gravity.I'll start quoting now Anatoly Klyosov to see what he got. :D

Both have nothing with genetics and are complete charlatans i don't even know why people even rely on them.

But you said that there was no I2a1 in the Balkans
 
Pure fantasy speculation from Serbo-Croatian parts. Fakedonian too, disregarding renowned geneticist such as Ken Nordtvedt, for their own personal agendas.


FYROMians are a mix of AlbanoVlach-Bulgarians combined with some Turkic admixture. As that is what you are so I heard, why are you Üskubians trying to steal Greek history?
 
Right Albos are the most ancient and first inhabitants in the Balkans,and are there since the dino's here's a proof
12540945_1717741148442163_1091158022945636166_n.png
 
Where is our goddess of wisdom when we need her?
 
The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe - Mathieson, Reich, et al.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al


...............................................
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG_brother_of_I4880 Serbia U4b1b1 I2a2a1b
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U4a I2a2a
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U4b1b1 I2a2a1b2
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U4b1b1 I2a2a1b2
...........................................................................
 
The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe - Mathieson, Reich, et al.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al


...............................................
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG_brother_of_I4880 Serbia U4b1b1 I2a2a1b
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U4a I2a2a
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U4b1b1 I2a2a1b2
6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia U4b1b1 I2a2a1b2
...........................................................................

I2a2 in modern populations:

Haplogroup-I2b.gif


Nothing Slavic about it.
 
Pure fantasy speculation from Serbo-Croatian parts. Fakedonian too, disregarding renowned geneticist such as Ken Nordtvedt, for their own personal agendas.


FYROMians are a mix of AlbanoVlach-Bulgarians combined with some Turkic admixture. As that is what you are so I heard, why are you Üskubians trying to steal Greek history?

Shiptar better check your Circassian admixture.
 

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