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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    93 44.08%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 3.79%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 0.95%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.84%
  • The Slavs

    84 39.81%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    18 8.53%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1576
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milojevic View Post
    I have to look at the book, I don't remember but the I and J are parents
    Yes they descend from one another origin of Cro Magnon people



  2. #1577
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Thanks for the clarifications. I know of the Torbesh, bus was unaware of the tendecy towards Turkic identification that you wrote of. Something similar is observed with a minority of the Muslim Pomaks (bulgarophones) and Roma (Gypsies) in Thrace, but most are against that stance. Other than that we also have a Turkish-speaking presence as well there, along the Pomaks and Roma.
    Pomaks are not pure Bulgarian they have minor Turkic ancestry as do many Turks

  3. #1578
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milojevic View Post
    For the origin of the Slavs if we base ourselves on the ancient medieval Bohemian, Polish, Czech, Russian and German texts the original home of the Slavs would be Pannonia, and the ancient texts of antiquity that the Serbs would have lived in Moesia, according to Pius II the Serbs are the descendants of the Moesians
    I ask because my result is all over the place. Firstly, my main haplogroup comes from Serbia. But my maternal says autosomally I am Near Eastern/Caucasian from my mother's side.


    My Vahadou ( I didn't even bother with Ged match as the admixtures are confusing ) said I was mainly related to Imperial Romans but one ancestor came from Neolithic Near East ( I don't have money for G25 but when I do I may get it and a deep dive map )

    Did Caucasian people pre date Slavs in the Balkans?

    Are Caucasian people older than Slavs?

    Some information I know about my family.

    My mum's dad's family comes from South Eastern Europe my great grandfather looks Slavic Balkan

    my mum's mum's family comes from the North Caucasus but I don't know who they were as a people

    My maternal haplogroup comes from Mesolithic Serbia.

    Are these carriers older than I2 Dinaric people? Could they possibly be more E or J? In a male line version?





    My autosomal was this

    Target: Angeleyes2_Mom
    Distance: 1.1993% / 1.19925081 | ADC: 0.25x
    34.2 R68_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    26.8 R76_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    14.0 Sidon_BA_ERS1790729_
    13.0 R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    5.4 R1543_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    3.6 R42_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    1.6 Khoesan_Hunter_South_Africa_2100BP.SG_2103_ybp
    1.4 I3726_Tanzania_Luxmanda_3100BP_3079_ybp

    Sidon_BA is Neolithic before the Hebrew presence in the Levant but i'd like to know more.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_318741481


  4. #1579
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I saw the quote and the actual Table S5, and probably a lot of that frequency has to do with CEU (western Europe) "if medieval", rather than actual Slavic populations which you mentioned in your prior comment. It doesn't specify. But if you go at Table S5 you see that CEU (western Europe) shows the highest frequency between the aforementioned populations, namely at 28.1%. Also, the paper seems to suggest that some of that could also be due to ancient migrations on the island, such as Mycenaean and Dorian Greeks. For example, "These results might reflect past settlements to Crete from Europe. Indeed, Crete was invaded from the North by the Myceneans and the Dorians in prehistoric or early historic times. These were Greek tribes which, together with the Minoans and other prehistoric inhabitants of the island, shaped the genetic structure of the Cretan population.".

    I am not going to expand on a possible mass Greco-Roman conversion to Judaism. But aside of that, the aforementioned haplogroup accounts for very little of the Ashkenazim Jewish paternal haplogroups. As aforementioned, I Y-DNA in general with all its subclades accounts for 4% of their lines. Who knows, maybe I-Y18331 accounts for only 0.50% (if not less) for all we know. Therefore even if you negate the possibility of a mass Greco-Roman conversion you still cannot exclude the assimilation of such small numbers. Other than that, Ashkenazim Jews are autosomally a Mediterranean population, so most of them obviously came from the South.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769

    They are related to Palestinians and Sephardic Jews more than anyone else at least through their Y chromosone.

  5. #1580
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    https://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769

    They are related to Palestinians and Sephardic Jews more than anyone else at least through their Y chromosone.
    I don't know about their Y-DNA in depth, but a paper i read a couple of years ago found out that most of Ashekanzim Jewish mtDNA lines are European. Namely from "A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages" (2013), "Given the strength of the case for even these founders having a European source, however, our best estimate is to assign ~81% of Ashkenazi lineages to a European source, ~8% to the Near East and ~1% further to the east in Asia, with ~10% remaining ambiguous (Fig. 10; Supplementary Table S9).".

    Concerning the Pomaks that you aforementioned, can you specify what do you mean by minor Turkic ancestry? Because minor is a relative term.

  6. #1581
    angeleyes2
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't know about their Y-DNA in depth, but a paper i read a couple of years ago found out that most of Ashekanzim Jewish mtDNA lines are European. Namely from "A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages" (2013), "Given the strength of the case for even these founders having a European source, however, our best estimate is to assign ~81% of Ashkenazi lineages to a European source, ~8% to the Near East and ~1% further to the east in Asia, with ~10% remaining ambiguous (Fig. 10; Supplementary Table S9).".

    Concerning the Pomaks that you aforementioned, can you specify what do you mean by minor Turkic ancestry? Because minor is a relative term.
    Their Y chromosome is the same as Palestinian bediouns though. Their Maternal line comes from Indo European Eurasian populations and South East Europe.

  7. #1582
    angeleyes2
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I don't know about their Y-DNA in depth, but a paper i read a couple of years ago found out that most of Ashekanzim Jewish mtDNA lines are European. Namely from "A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages" (2013), "Given the strength of the case for even these founders having a European source, however, our best estimate is to assign ~81% of Ashkenazi lineages to a European source, ~8% to the Near East and ~1% further to the east in Asia, with ~10% remaining ambiguous (Fig. 10; Supplementary Table S9).".

    Concerning the Pomaks that you aforementioned, can you specify what do you mean by minor Turkic ancestry? Because minor is a relative term.
    About 7 to 14 percent on average, it's usually almost always over 7 percent but rarely is as much as 14 but I have heard they can be.

  8. #1583
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    Their Y chromosome is the same as Palestinian bediouns though. Their Maternal line comes from Indo European Eurasian populations and South East Europe.
    From a quick review of that paper, i see that it deals with a number of Jewish populations, namely 7 (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) while what is of interest in our case are Ashkenazim Jews exclusively. By reading the abstract of the paper, it seems that one of the 7 aforementioned Jewish populations is excluded from that Palestinian and Syrian cluster, "Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians.". I suppose that the one of seven that is excluded pertains to Ashkenazim Jews, right? Haven't read the whole paper, hence the question.

  9. #1584
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    From a quick review of that paper, i see that it deals with a number of Jewish populations, namely 7 (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) while what is of interest in our case are Ashkenazim Jews exclusively. By reading the abstract of the paper, it seems that one of the 7 aforementioned Jewish populations is excluded from that Palestinian and Syrian cluster, "Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians.". I suppose that the one of seven that is excluded pertains to Ashkenazim Jews, right? Haven't read the whole paper, hence the question.
    They are like Palestinians in their Y chromosones yes or they have it from Semitic people from the Caucasus. Armeniod phenotype is from the Caucasus J1C1 is a Ashkenazi Jewish haplogroup from the Caucasus

  10. #1585
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    About 7 to 14 percent on average, it's usually almost always over 7 percent but rarely is as much as 14 but I have heard they can be.
    Can you please provide a source for these numbers? Also, does this pertain to autosomal, Y-DNA, or mtDNA? If autosomal, does it pertain to East Asian admixture, or something else? 7-14% seems too high for Pomaks. I mean, that would be the Turkish average, https://i.ibb.co/TP34vsy/EN0v-Lc-BWs...ure-Turkey.jpg, so i doubt its that high in Pomaks. Consider this image as well, https://www.eupedia.com/images/conte...-admixture.gif.

  11. #1586
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    They are like Palestinians in their Y chromosones yes or they have it from Semitic people from the Caucasus. Armeniod phenotype is from the Caucasus J1C1 is a Ashkenazi Jewish haplogroup from the Caucasus
    That doesn't answer my question though. Anyways, we are diverging from the thread's subject, we can continue this through PM if you want.

  12. #1587
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Can you please provide a source for these numbers? Also, does this pertain to autosomal, Y-DNA, or mtDNA? If autosomal, does it pertain to East Asian admixture, or something else? 7-14% seems too high for Pomaks. I mean, that would be the Turkish average, https://i.ibb.co/TP34vsy/EN0v-Lc-BWs...ure-Turkey.jpg, so i doubt its that high in Pomaks. Consider this image as well, https://www.eupedia.com/images/conte...-admixture.gif.
    Turkish people are not simply Balkan converts to Islam they have admixtues and 7 percent for any Turk is not too much at all.




    There was a user Kasipas on the apricity who had 8 to 10 percent and another one called Onur who got a similar score. I think at least 7 percent is quite typical

  13. #1588
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    That doesn't answer my question though. Anyways, we are diverging from the thread's subject, we can continue this through PM if you want.
    Ashkenazi Jews are European through their female line and deeply Middle Eastern through their male. That's all you need to know.

    I came because I would like some additional information on my result I was hoping the Serbian guy could answer.

  14. #1589
    angeleyes2
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    A Bulgarian result

    This is one result and he is not Turkish nor Muslim nor Pomak and his result is 3. something Siberian
    This is his


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 20.87
    2 Baltic 15.41
    3 North_Atlantic 14.82
    4 West_Med 13.53
    5 West_Asian 11.48
    6 East_Asian 5.52
    7 Northeast_African 4.13
    8 Siberian 3.71
    9 South_Asian 3.49
    10 Red_Sea 2.9
    11 Amerindian 2.35
    12 Oceanian 1.52
    13 Sub-Saharan 0.27

    0.5x preferably.




    A Turkish one
    Target: Kaspias
    Distance: 3.0036% / 0.03003601 | ADC: 0.5x
    53.2 Balkan
    24.8 Iranic
    16.0 Oghuz
    6.0 Ugric





  15. #1590
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    Turkish people are not simply Balkan converts to Islam they have admixtues and 7 percent for any Turk is not too much at all.

    There was a user Kaspiras on the apricity who had 8 to 10 percent and another one called Onur who got a similar score. I think at least 7 percent is quite typical
    Assuming 7-14% out of thin air doesn't make it a fact though. Do you have a source for these numbers? There are a number of Turkish people who were simply Balkan converts by the way. One of them was Cretan Turks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Turks), who spoke Greek as a mother tongue. Today their descendants live in Turkey, Lebanon, and Syria. And others of course. The other day i run some autosomal coordinates for a Balkan Turk, here are his Eurogenes K15 PCA (https://i.ibb.co/9V3pW19/K15-V4-Ata-T-rkc-Eurogenes-K15-PCA-2.png) and Eurogenes K36 Similarity Map (https://i.ibb.co/DDp3Pxf/Eurogenes-K36-Similarity-Map-1.png).

  16. #1591
    angeleyes2
    Guest


    In Lebanon and Syria they live in the Turkish areas those are when the Ottomans attacked Crete the stats are above of both Bulgarian and Turkish


    A Bulgarian result

    This is one result and he is not Turkish nor Muslim nor Pomak and his result is 3. something Siberian
    This is his


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 20.87
    2 Baltic 15.41
    3 North_Atlantic 14.82
    4 West_Med 13.53
    5 West_Asian 11.48
    6 East_Asian 5.52
    7 Northeast_African 4.13
    8 Siberian 3.71
    9 South_Asian 3.49
    10 Red_Sea 2.9
    11 Amerindian 2.35
    12 Oceanian 1.52
    13 Sub-Saharan 0.27

    0.5x preferably.




    A Turkish one
    Target: Kaspias
    Distance: 3.0036% / 0.03003601 | ADC: 0.5x
    53.2 Balkan
    24.8 Iranic
    16.0 Oghuz
    6.0 Ugric

  17. #1592
    angeleyes2
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    Compare it to the Balkan Slav scores underneath they would have nowhere near that autosomally

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-Calculator-v3

  18. #1593
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    In Lebanon and Syria they live in the Turkish areas those are when the Ottomans attacked Crete the stats are above of both Bulgarian and Turkish


    A Bulgarian result

    This is one result and he is not Turkish nor Muslim nor Pomak and his result is 3. something Siberian
    This is his


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 20.87
    2 Baltic 15.41
    3 North_Atlantic 14.82
    4 West_Med 13.53
    5 West_Asian 11.48
    6 East_Asian 5.52
    7 Northeast_African 4.13
    8 Siberian 3.71
    9 South_Asian 3.49
    10 Red_Sea 2.9
    11 Amerindian 2.35
    12 Oceanian 1.52
    13 Sub-Saharan 0.27

    0.5x preferably.




    A Turkish one
    Target: Kaspias
    Distance: 3.0036% / 0.03003601 | ADC: 0.5x
    53.2 Balkan
    24.8 Iranic
    16.0 Oghuz
    6.0 Ugric
    No, they left Crete for Lebanon and Syria between 1866 and 1897, on the outbreak of the Cretan uprising against the Ottoman Empire. Some others left with the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.

    All these still don't provide any Pomak average. That Kaspias is actually more of a Turk of Thrace than Pomak, and a single sample.

    Anyway, please stop spamming the thread with multiple (you could include everything in a single post) unrelated posts. We have diverged enough. If you want to continue this discussion send a PM.

  19. #1594
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    Yes they descend from one another origin of Cro Magnon people


    this doc you provide (thanks for it) is nonsense! (for more than a reason, but it's so tiring to explain allways the same things)

  20. #1595
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    this doc you provide (thanks for it) is nonsense! (for more than a reason, but it's so tiring to explain allways the same things)
    The only nonsense is nordicists.

  21. #1596
    angeleyes2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    No, they left Crete for Lebanon and Syria between 1866 and 1897, on the outbreak of the Cretan uprising against the Ottoman Empire. Some others left with the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.

    All these still don't provide any Pomak average. That Kaspias is actually more of a Turk of Thrace than Pomak, and a single sample.

    Anyway, please stop spamming the thread with multiple (you could include everything in a single post) unrelated posts. We have diverged enough. If you want to continue this discussion send a PM.
    No it provided one Pomak average you said get them or even one Turkish average so I did. The majority of them I have seen are way above 6 or 7 or 10 percent anyway

    No, don't talk to me like that. Don't ask me for averages on Turks and Jews and then say I am spamming when I provide scientific evidence

    Turkmen of Lebanon is provided here. https://www.albawaba.com/editorchoic...illages-524898 They came to Lebanon/Syria because the Turks attacked Crete

    Now, can we please get back on track? About the origin of I2 in the Balkans.

  22. #1597
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    No it provided one Pomak average you said get them or even one Turkish average so I did. The majority of them I have seen are way above 6 or 7 or 10 percent anyway

    No, don't talk to me like that. Don't ask me for averages on Turks and Jews and then say I am spamming when I provide scientific evidence

    Turkmen of Lebanon is provided here. https://www.albawaba.com/editorchoic...illages-524898 They came to Lebanon/Syria because the Turks attacked Crete

    Now, can we please get back on track? About the origin of I2 in the Balkans.
    That sample still doesn't answer what the Pomak average that you claimed as 7-14% actually is. Here is also another graph from Anthrogenica that provides a more detailed view, and it lists the Pomaks with 0.25% East Asian and 0.18% North Asian admixtures.
    https://abload.de/img/mdlpworld0snj4v.png
    https://abload.de/img/mdlpworldsbj26.png

    Don't talk to you like what? I said to try and include everything in one post, and you are making multiple posts at a time. Aside of the fact that what we are discussing is unrelated to the thread.

    What do Turkmen have to do with Cretan Turks, other than sharing some settlements? Again, Cretan Turks migrated to Lebanon and Syria at the second half of the 19th century. Some of them still speak Greek.

  23. #1598
    angeleyes2
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    That sample still doesn't answer what the Pomak average that you claimed as 7-14% actually is. Here is also another graph from Anthrogenica that provides a more detailed view, and it lists the Pomaks with 0.25% East Asian and 0.18% North Asian admixtures.
    https://abload.de/img/mdlpworld0snj4v.png
    https://abload.de/img/mdlpworldsbj26.png

    Don't talk to you like what? I said to try and include everything in one post, and you are making multiple posts at a time. Aside of the fact that what we are discussing is unrelated to the thread.

    What do Turkmen have to do with Cretan Turks, other than sharing some settlements? Again, Cretan Turks migrated to Lebanon and Syria at the second half of the 19th century. Some of them still speak Greek.
    #

    I said the Turkish average meaning Pomak he is a Pomak. Many other Turkish groups have this average. Turks are in no way shape or form simply ''Balkan converts to Islam'' apart from Bosnians or Bosinaks and yes some Greeks.

    It lists Cretan Turks as coming as refugees when the island fell in the 19th Century.

    I listed the reason why.

    It fell because increased attacks from the Turks.



  24. #1599
    angeleyes2
    Guest


    They didn't just decide to go to Lebanon or Syria on holiday. Look I am not interesting in Turks or Jews. I am interested in my result and can the Serbian users here explain in my detail pre historic migrations and also the origin of I2 Dinaric. I will make another comment regarding that. Bye.

  25. #1600
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    #

    I said the Turkish average meaning Pomak he is a Pomak. Many other Turkish groups have this average. Turks are in no way shape or form simply ''Balkan converts to Islam'' apart from Bosnians or Bosinaks and yes some Greeks.

    It lists Cretan Turks as coming as refugees when the island fell in the 19th Century.

    I listed the reason why.

    It fell because increased attacks from the Turks.

    They didn't just decide to go to Lebanon or Syria on holiday.
    Pomaks are not Turks, they are simply Muslims and bulgarophones. Also, i provided you a table with more detailed information, and Pomaks have negligible amounts of Turkic admixtures. Nothing to suggest 7-14%. Also, i am not going to expand on the amount of Balkan converts to Islam, but they obviously have minor East and North Asian admixtures, and other than that they have different frequencies of certain other admixtures than those of Anatolian Turks. Also, the fact that they all have such low East and North Asian admixture frequencies, suggest conversion and assimilation in one way or another.

    You wrote that they came to Lebanon and Syria because Turks attacked Crete. Conquest of Crete by the Ottomans began in 1645 and ended in 1669. The island didn't fell in the 19th century. I say again, that those Cretan Turks of Lebanon and Syria left Crete between 1866 and 1897, during the Cretan (Orthodox Christians) uprising against the Ottoman Empire, yes, as refugees. With the Treaty of Constantinople (1897) Crete became an autonomous State, until it was finally unified with Greece in December of 1913.

    I didn't claim that they ended up in Lebanon and Syria because of holidays, they were obviously refugees and unwanted on the island. But what you wrote in prior comments suggested that they were Turkmen and that they ended up in the Middle East because of the Turkic conquest of Crete, which is wrong.

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