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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    93 44.08%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 3.79%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 0.95%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.84%
  • The Slavs

    84 39.81%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    18 8.53%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1601
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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    The only nonsense is nordicists.
    What is 'nordicism' coming to do here? This weird "tree" has roots which go back very sooner than 'nordic' and 'nordicism';
    More than an interpretation can be wrong, only one is right for every kind of question.
    But if you rely on this kind of pattern linking allover autosomal sketch to uniparental markers over long periods, I have nothing to tell you on this.

  2. #1602
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Another upstream CTS10228 sample was found in someone of German descent, S20602+ according to the FTDNA blog. This man might be related to Martin Luther. This appears to give more evidence to a west-to-east migration of the Dinaric branch. We don’t know exactly where Y3120 formed (parent of major sub-branches) but have a sense of the migration’s general direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milojevic View Post
    The haplogroup I2a1 was found in the archaeological excavations of Lepinski vir on bones, the I2a-Din is a descendant of the I2a1
    What date did they give it? Also which is the oldest date of i2a-din in balkans

  4. #1604
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    What date did they give it? Also which is the oldest date of i2a-din in balkans
    I2a1 sample was Mesolithic if I am not mistaken. The passage of time between I2a1 and I2-Y3120 is so large, it is relatively meaningless to associate I-Y3120 with Paleo-Balkans, in comparison with a sample that pre-dated the Indo-Europeans by thousands of years. Especially considering there are other unrelated branches between them, of varied origins(Mostly Western). I-Y3120 is only dated to 100BC and it accounts for the entirety of I2a1b-Din that he refers too, downstream of CTS10228(basal samples which appear around Germany/France).

    He also forgets, even if for the sake of argument, that I2a1 was in mesolithic Balkans, the cultures they are trying to affiliate it with didn't exist until the bronze age. Including their language, and to some degree their genetics. Unless they find a branch downstream of CTS10228, and upstream I-Y3120 in the Bronze/Iron Age Balkans, its only support outside of a Slavic origin is Germanic. This however does not change that most I-Y3120 branches moved almost entirely in the middle ages with Slavs. Excluding the Greek branch which is somewhat a mystery.

  5. #1605
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I2a1 sample was Mesolithic if I am not mistaken. The passage of time between I2a1 and I2-Y3120 is so large, it is relatively meaningless to associate I-Y3120 with Paleo-Balkans, in comparison with a sample that pre-dated the Indo-Europeans by thousands of years. Especially considering there are other unrelated branches between them, of varied origins(Mostly Western). I-Y3120 is only dated to 100BC and it accounts for the entirety of I2a1b-Din that he refers too, downstream of CTS10228(basal samples which appear around Germany/France).

    He also forgets, even if for the sake of argument, that I2a1 was in mesolithic Balkans, the cultures they are trying to affiliate it with didn't exist until the bronze age. Including their language, and to some degree their genetics. Unless they find a branch downstream of CTS10228, and upstream I-Y3120 in the Bronze/Iron Age Balkans, its only support outside of a Slavic origin is Germanic. This however does not change that most I-Y3120 branches moved almost entirely in the middle ages with Slavs. Excluding the Greek branch which is somewhat a mystery.
    Very concise answer Dribran. Now I know something regarding I2a-Din. Thanks!
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  6. #1606
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    They call it I2a2-Din because the father of all I2a2-Din was a Bosnian man called IsameDin.

  7. #1607
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    They call it I2a2-Din because the father of all I2a2-Din was a Bosnian man called IsameDin.
    You mean Isa Medin .

  8. #1608
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Not a single I2a slavic appears in the pre-Medieval Serbia within 40+ samples there is even I1. Surely there should have been at least one.




    Viminacium - 28 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

    E x 13 (L618 x 6; L618>V13 x 3; Z830 x 1; Z830>M123 x 1; Z1902 x 1; M96 x 1)

    G x 5 (PF3148 x 1; PF3148>L91 x 1; P303 x 1; L497 x 1; L497>Z1815 x 1)

    R1b x 3 (Z2103 x 1; U106 x 1; U152>L2>Z367 x 1)

    R1a x 2 (Z2124>Z2122 x 1; Z2124>Z2123 x 1)

    J x 2 (M304 x 1; L24 x 1)

    T x 1 (M184)

    I1 x 1 (M253)

    I2 x 1 (L596)


    Timacum Minus, Slog necropolis - 10 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

    E x 3 (M35 x 1; L618 x 1; L618>V13 x 1)

    J x 3 (M304 x 1; M410 x 1; M241 x 1)

    R1b x 2 (Z2103 x 1; Z2103>CTS1450 x 1)

    G x 1 (CTS342>FGC12126)

    I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


    Timacum Minus, Kuline necropolis - 5 (labeled Serbia_Early_Middle_Age):

    I2 x 2 (M423 x 2)

    E x 1 (L618)

    J x 1 (M304)

    R1b x 1 (P312>DF99)


    Lepenski Vir - 2:

    E x 1 (M35) - Serbia_Roman

    J x 1 (M102) - Serbia_Medieval


    Mediana - 2 (labeled Serbia_Gepid):

    G x 1 (P287)

    I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


    Gomolava - 1 (labeled Serbia_Medieval):

    I2 x 1 (M423>L621>CTS4002)

  9. #1609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I2a1 sample was Mesolithic if I am not mistaken. The passage of time between I2a1 and I2-Y3120 is so large, it is relatively meaningless to associate I-Y3120 with Paleo-Balkans, in comparison with a sample that pre-dated the Indo-Europeans by thousands of years. Especially considering there are other unrelated branches between them, of varied origins(Mostly Western). I-Y3120 is only dated to 100BC and it accounts for the entirety of I2a1b-Din that he refers too, downstream of CTS10228(basal samples which appear around Germany/France).

    He also forgets, even if for the sake of argument, that I2a1 was in mesolithic Balkans, the cultures they are trying to affiliate it with didn't exist until the bronze age. Including their language, and to some degree their genetics. Unless they find a branch downstream of CTS10228, and upstream I-Y3120 in the Bronze/Iron Age Balkans, its only support outside of a Slavic origin is Germanic. This however does not change that most I-Y3120 branches moved almost entirely in the middle ages with Slavs. Excluding the Greek branch which is somewhat a mystery.
    Thanks! What's the mystery regarding the Greek branch? Has I-3120 been found in BA/IA Greece?

  10. #1610
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Thanks! What's the mystery regarding the Greek branch? Has I-3120 been found in BA/IA Greece?
    No and it almost certainly will not be found there. It looks like the movement is from France/Germany at its most basal position eastward, with one sample found in Poland. It’s not known exactly where Y3120 formed but there’s an eastward movement so far. The major sub-branches formed an estimated 2,100 years ago. One of the sub-branches has unusual results compared with the rest, Y18331. This one is scarcely found in Balkan and East European Slavs, as we’ve said ad nauseam, whereas with the rest, they’re heavily Slavic.

  11. #1611
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    They call it I2a2-Din because the father of all I2a2-Din was a Bosnian man called IsameDin.
    Two new Y3120* branches were found according to YFull. One is Serbian and one is Bosnian. Y3120* was previously found only in Poland. This adds to the pattern of an eastward movement from the ancestral locations of France/Germany. As was said in another post, no I2a was found in pre-medieval Serbia. More old samples need to be found, so we can understand how and if CTS10228 moved east, and with which people.

  12. #1612
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Two new Y3120* branches were found according to YFull. One is Serbian and one is Bosnian. Y3120* was previously found only in Poland. This adds to the pattern of an eastward movement from the ancestral locations of France/Germany. As was said in another post, no I2a was found in pre-medieval Serbia. More old samples need to be found, so we can understand how and if CTS10228 moved east, and with which people.
    I believe that Serb probably relates to what @Aspurg mentions here.

  13. #1613
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    .
    It turns out Flytzanis (887728) from the island of Fournoi is positive for I-A10959, just as i had surmised. Meaning he is not I-A2512*. If i understand correctly he had done his SNP pack test prior of 2016, and thus missed being tested for I-A10959 which i believe was added in 2016 in YSEQ. We only knew of his negative I-A7134 result until now. Furthermore, even though he is from the island of Fournoi and he has a number of competing oral stories about where he was from before Fournoi, he was very likely from Peloponnese. I say that because i was informed by a member of his family that there is another individual who probably used (because i cannot find him) to be a member of the I2a project, named Angelos Mihalopoulos (N226715), who is from the Peloponnese and he is an exact STR match to Flytzanis out of 12 markers.

    Anyway, right now i am only aware of two confirmed I-A2512* samples, both Greek. One is Oikonomidis (493284/YF07857) from the island of Thassos (the so-called Kavala sample in YFull), and the second is myself, namely Panagiotopoulos (B600881 - only visible in the map with a white mark).

  14. #1614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I believe that Serb probably relates to what @Aspurg mentions here.
    They both do, one always needs to wait for the next upgrade of YFull's tree..

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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    They didn't just decide to go to Lebanon or Syria on holiday. Look I am not interesting in Turks or Jews. I am interested in my result and can the Serbian users here explain in my detail pre historic migrations and also the origin of I2 Dinaric. I will make another comment regarding that. Bye.
    Migration of Croats to Roman Dalmatia is explained here. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

    By the way, it is mostly the same I2a genetics, so this migration also applies to Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    Yes they descend from one another origin of Cro Magnon people


    While its possible y K2b was East Eurasian y K and y P were not associated with East Eurasian populations.

  17. #1617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Two new Y3120* branches were found according to YFull. One is Serbian and one is Bosnian. Y3120* was previously found only in Poland. This adds to the pattern of an eastward movement from the ancestral locations of France/Germany. As was said in another post, no I2a was found in pre-medieval Serbia. More old samples need to be found, so we can understand how and if CTS10228 moved east, and with which people.
    The Bosnian is also a Serb. The Bosnian Serb, Serb from Serbia, and Pole, likely form a clade thats roughly 1500ybp if I heard correct on some discussions.

    They are not remaining Y3120*

  18. #1618
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    The Bosnian is also a Serb. The Bosnian Serb, Serb from Serbia, and Pole, likely form a clade thats roughly 1500ybp if I heard correct on some discussions.

    They are not remaining Y3120*
    If i have understood correctly there is also a Lithuanian sample mentioned by @Aspurg which looks like an independent branch.

  19. #1619
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    The Bosnian is also a Serb. The Bosnian Serb, Serb from Serbia, and Pole, likely form a clade thats roughly 1500ybp if I heard correct on some discussions.

    They are not remaining Y3120*
    Thanks for the update. Wondering if they will be a basal branch just below Y3120, like S17250, Y18331, etc.

  20. #1620
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Thanks for the update. Wondering if they will be a basal branch just below Y3120, like S17250, Y18331, etc.
    I imagine so, yes. Only reason being, they are negative downstream, and don't appear to carry any no calls. Anything is possible though.

  21. #1621
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    If i have understood correctly there is also a Lithuanian sample mentioned by @Aspurg which looks like an independent branch.
    Oh, I am not sure of a independent Lithuanian branch. The Pole, and two Serbs should form a cluster with a 1500ybp TMRCA. Not sure if it will be another independent branch under I-Y3120( I imagine so), or whether it will be upstream an existing branch under I-Y3120.

  22. #1622
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    Most likely with Slavs I believe though there is clearly some I2a2 and other I2a from hunter gatherers that has been found

  23. #1623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    No and it almost certainly will not be found there. It looks like the movement is from France/Germany at its most basal position eastward, with one sample found in Poland. It’s not known exactly where Y3120 formed but there’s an eastward movement so far. The major sub-branches formed an estimated 2,100 years ago. One of the sub-branches has unusual results compared with the rest, Y18331. This one is scarcely found in Balkan and East European Slavs, as we’ve said ad nauseam, whereas with the rest, they’re heavily Slavic.
    What is the earliest y3120 found in Greece? Where else in the world can it be found today?

  24. #1624
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    There has been a new I-Y18331* sample from Poland. His surname is Zielinski (934935 in FTDNA). I am still looking into it and i will try to contact him. Don't know yet if he is Jewish or not, just that he is from Poland. Zielinski is a very common surname in Poland (6th-8th in frequency) and is also shared by Ashkenazim Jews, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieli%C5%84ski. The asterisk designates the possibility that he is either basal or member of an unidentified downstream branch, we don't know for now. Let me remind that there is also a Greek sample from the island of Zakynthos who is designated as I-Y18331*, and he could also be basal or member of an unidentified downstream branch. Zielinski's YFull designation is YF79195.

  25. #1625
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    ^^ Ionian Islanders expect for maybe Kephalonia are probably mainland Greek transplants.

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