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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

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  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 3.65%
  • Sea Peoples

    3 1.37%
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    6 2.74%
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    86 39.27%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1626
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^^ Ionian Islanders expect for maybe Kephalonia are probably mainland Greek transplants.
    The family of the aforementioned Greek sample in Zakynthos is rooted on the island at least since the beginning of the 1500s. I know for example that his earliest traceable ancestor in terms of his settlement of Loucha/Louha is from 1545, let alone on the rest of the island. For example, take note that his surname is very widespread on Zakynthos, where we also find the highest concentration of any other place in Greece, https://i.ibb.co/M8rhP0b/Xenos-surname-distribution.png, so it must have diverged throughout the island well prior of 1500. Surely though at some point his family must have come from the mainland; i assume western/central Peloponnese where we also find the highest frequency (in terms of Greek samples) and variance of I-Y18331, and is located just across of it. You should also take note that his surname in Greek translates as "stranger/non-local", which compliments the aforementioned migration from the mainland.

  2. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The family of the aforementioned Greek sample in Zakynthos is rooted on the island at least since the beginning of the 1500s. I know for example that his earliest traceable ancestor in terms of his settlement of Loucha/Louha is from 1545, let alone on the rest of the island. For example, take note that his surname is very widespread on Zakynthos, where we also find the highest concentration of any other place in Greece, https://i.ibb.co/M8rhP0b/Xenos-surname-distribution.png, so it must have diverged throughout the island well prior of 1500. Surely though at some point his family must have come from the mainland; i assume western/central Peloponnese where we also find the highest frequency (in terms of Greek samples) and variance of I-Y18331, and is located just across of it. You should also take note that his surname in Greek translates as "stranger/non-local", which compliments the aforementioned migration from the mainland.
    10,000 Peloponnesians came in Zante during 15th century. Some years later the island had 25,000 inhabitants.

  3. #1628
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The family of the aforementioned Greek sample in Zakynthos is rooted on the island at least since the beginning of the 1500s. I know for example that his earliest traceable ancestor in terms of his settlement of Loucha/Louha is from 1545, let alone on the rest of the island. For example, take note that his surname is very widespread on Zakynthos, where we also find the highest concentration of any other place in Greece, https://i.ibb.co/M8rhP0b/Xenos-surname-distribution.png, so it must have diverged throughout the island well prior of 1500. Surely though at some point his family must have come from the mainland; i assume western/central Peloponnese where we also find the highest frequency (in terms of Greek samples) and variance of I-Y18331, and is located just across of it. You should also take note that his surname in Greek translates as "stranger/non-local", which compliments the aforementioned migration from the mainland.
    Is it part of the Island under Venice for more than 300 Years ? from 1485-1797

    http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Zante.html

    and

    https://www.romeartlover.it/Zante2.html

    or since Jews where never allowed to stay in Venice for more than one month......either going to Germany or being taken to the levant by Venetian ships of which many stopped and stayed at different Venetian ports on the way to the levant

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...67.2012.735007
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  4. #1629
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Is it part of the Island under Venice for more than 300 Years ? from 1485-1797

    http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Zante.html

    and

    https://www.romeartlover.it/Zante2.html

    or since Jews where never allowed to stay in Venice for more than one month......either going to Germany or being taken to the levant by Venetian ships of which many stopped and stayed at different Venetian ports on the way to the levant

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...67.2012.735007
    Yeah. The island of Zakynthos was a Venetian overseas "Domain" for 312 years (1485-1797), like a number of other regions in the Mediterranean at various times, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stato_da_M%C3%A0r. A Jewish community was also present on the island, but it was established after the mainland Peloponnesian migration (1460-1479) that was aforementioned.

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    There is a peculiar fact concerning the existence of an important non-greek community (Arvanites-Albanians of Greece) in Zakynthos: their considerable presence in the island from the beginning of the XVI century!! The village of Loucha near Γύρι\Gyri it's precisely in the area in which the Arvanites massively settled during the 16th century!! I am curious to know also the precise area\village of origin of those 13 greeks wich belong to the I-Y18331 hg, i know that some are from Pella in Greek Macedonia, so a probable slavic origin might be taken in consideration!! Also a considerable percentage of Arberesh\Arvanites carry hg downstream of I-Y3120.
    The case of Zielinski I-Y18331* makes this issue much more intriguing.Attachment 12435

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    There has been a new I-Y18331* sample from Poland. His surname is Zielinski (934935 in FTDNA). I am still looking into it and i will try to contact him. Don't know yet if he is Jewish or not, just that he is from Poland. Zielinski is a very common surname in Poland (6th-8th in frequency) and is also shared by Ashkenazim Jews, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieli%C5%84ski. The asterisk designates the possibility that he is either basal or member of an unidentified downstream branch, we don't know for now. Let me remind that there is also a Greek sample from the island of Zakynthos who is designated as I-Y18331*, and he could also be basal or member of an unidentified downstream branch. Zielinski's YFull designation is YF79195.

    Zielinski makes me think of "Honey I blew up the kids" lol

  7. #1632
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well if you check carefully through the surnames of the Arvanites/Albanian Stradiotti (catalogue of 'Stratia' year 1539) which settled in Zakynthos primarly after those years, and whom were previously inhabiting in western-central Peleponesse, you will notice in that list of Arvanites a interesant surname: Xenos - Ξένος !!
    So probably the first Xenos in Zakynthos was from a Albanian background !!
    http://greeksurnames.blogspot.com/20..._2904.html?m=1

  8. #1633
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    In addition, from the Defter of Morea (Peloponnese) year 1461:
    1- Trimi Xenos from village Rolo (name Trimi-Trimas -> Braveheart in Albanian!)

    Attachment 12436

    2- Filip Xenos in the Albanian-Arnavudan village Topolova !!

    Attachment 12437

  9. #1634
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    There is a peculiar fact concerning the existence of an important non-greek community (Arvanites-Albanians of Greece) in Zakynthos: their considerable presence in the island from the beginning of the XVI century!! The village of Loucha near Γύρι\Gyri it's precisely in the area in which the Arvanites massively settled during the 16th century!! I am curious to know also the precise area\village of origin of those 13 greeks wich belong to the I-Y18331 hg, i know that some are from Pella in Greek Macedonia, so a probable slavic origin might be taken in consideration!! Also a considerable percentage of Arberesh\Arvanites carry hg downstream of I-Y3120.
    The case of Zielinski I-Y18331* makes this issue much more intriguing.Attachment 12435
    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    Well if you check carefully through the surnames of the Arvanites/Albanian Stradiotti (catalogue of 'Stratia' year 1539) which settled in Zakynthos primarly after those years, and whom were previously inhabiting in western-central Peleponesse, you will notice in that list of Arvanites a interesant surname: Xenos - Ξένος !! So probably the first Xenos in Zakynthos was from a Albanian background !!

    I didn't receive any notification for some reason, while i just received notification of torzio's and ihype02's comments. It's true that the island of Zakynthos received Greek, Arvanite, Italian, Aromanian and Jewish migrants during the end of the 15th century and thereafter. But Loucha is not considered an Arvanite settlement (i didn't find anything about Gyri being either), and furthermore, the surname of Xenos can be found in multiple other locations on the island. I have also communicated with the Xenos who got the I-Y18331* result and he didn't disclose any Arvanite association. His personal research, which among historical research is also based on communication with 1413 other members of the Xenos family from 405 families living in Greece, Canada, USA, Australia, Brazil, Finland and Great Britain, concluded a Greek origin as long as memory goes, which is statistically of note.

    It appears that I-Y18331, at least in the context of Greece (which is central) and during the current era, is very much connected with the region of southwestern Greece (western/central Peloponnese, Zakynthos, Aetolia-Acarnania), where we find the highest concentration of samples and the highest diversity/variance of its subclades, not northern Greece. For example, we have Xenos from Zakynthos (opposite the western coast of Peloponnese) that is I-Y18331*, we have me from Messenia (Peloponnese) as I-A2512*, we have another sample from Messenia (Peloponnese) some villages away from my father's village who is I-A7134 > Y32624 (below the Chuvash sample), we have at least two samples from Arcadia (Peloponnese) who are I-A10959 > Y66192 > Y153039, plus two-three other samples from Arcadia under I-A10959, we have a sample from Laconia (Peloponnese) who is I-A10959 > Y66192 > Y182158*, and we also have two samples from Laconia (Peloponnese) and Messolonghi (opposite the northern coast of Peloponnese) who are I-A10959 > Y60804. I don't know if i forgot someone. Surely there are more from the southwestern region of Greece. Even Flytzanis (887728) who is from the island of Fournoi and is under I-A10959, is most likely from Peloponnese originally, since an individual who used to be a member of the I2a project, named Angelos Mihalopoulos (N226715), is from Peloponnese and he is an exact STR match to Flytzanis out of 12 markers. I have totally reached out to four-five Greeks belonging under I-Y18331 and likewise none expressed any Arvanite, Slavic, or Aromanian association
    . Even for myself, my paternal side is from Gargalianoi which is historically a Greek settlement. Even by considering the surnames of the Greek samples under I-Y18331, they all seem to be based on Greek etymologies.

    It's very interesting that you found that list, which includes the names of both Greek and Albanian Stratioti. It would point to a Stratioti origin of the Xenos family, and it does make sense, but Stratioti were both Greek and Albanian in origin, and in the case of the ones that settled in Zakynthos, Italian as well. In the context of the Stratioti of Zakynthos, here is an informative segment from the following Wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zakynthos:
    "
    Stradioti
    When Zakynthos became a Venetian holding in 1484, the Venetian Republic sought to repopulate the island as the native population had dwindled. The Turkish raids in 1479 are believed to have resulted in many inhabitants hiding in the mountains or escaping the island altogether. Consequently, the Venice attempted to entice settlers and Greek refugees from mostly mainland Greece with parcels of land and fiscal privileges – initially these attempts we not successful but they improved later as Venice experienced reversals in mainland Greece. Many of these settlers and refugees were Stradioti, who were expected provide and upkeep their horses and be ready to serve in war.
    Stradioti were mounted troops of Greek and Albanian origin. Initially, they entered Venetian military service during the Venetian Republic's wars against the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century. As Venetian holdings were gradually conquered by the Ottomans, Stradioti were stationed and resettled in other Venetian holdings such as Zakynthos. Shortly after 1498, 150 Stradioti and their families were settled on the island.
    In 1483, Theodoros Palaiologos and his brother Georgios (their relationship to the imperial Palaiologos dynasty is unclear) became governors of the Stradioti in Zakynthos and were granted properties on the island, including the island of Marathonisi in the bay of Laganas, for their service to Venice. In early 1485, they also moved their extended families to the island. Theodoros Palaiologos played a vital role in improving the standing of the Stradioti in Zakynthos in the face of the locals, who sought to retain their power and privileges. After the earthquake of 1513, Theodoros Palaiologos moved his extended family to Venice; however, most of his company of Stradioti remained on the island.
    Some family names of the Stradioti include the Soumakis, Roussianos, Chalkomatas from Napflion, Kapnisis, Commoutos, Minotos, Nomikos from Methoni, Melissinos, Kontostavlis and Skiadopoulos from Mani and Tzibletis, Kumvis, Karreris and Derossis from Cyprus. Other populations also settled on Zakynthos which were not held by Venice but were battlegrounds between Ottoman and Venetian forces such as Mani in the Peloponnese. Even some families from mainland Italy were settled in Zakynthos who were fleeing civil wars going on at that time. They included the less Hellenised at that time of Salviati, Mediki, Valterra, Serra, Bentivolia and Merkati. These waves of Stradioti and refugees resulted in an island population of mixed classes of soldiers and refugees. By 1621, the settlement of people from certain areas was so dense in certain areas of Zakynthos town that the neighbourhood was named after them like Maniatika given the high proportion of people from Mani.
    Stradioti continued to be employed by Venice as capelatti (rural gendarmes) in the Terra Firma well into the 17th century. Stradioti companies also continued to be garrisoned in some of the towns of Cephalonia, Corfu and Zakynthos. In Zakynthos, a slightly different company of Stradioti from those guarding Zakynthos town were given the responsibility to guard the coast from the frequent pirate raids. They were considered the better fighters with the best horses on the island. They generally kept watch from watchtowers (which are still found on the island) during summer when pirate raids were more numerous and organised themselves using fire or smoke signals to gather fellow Stradioti and defend the island against a raiding party.
    Stradioti continued their service into the 18th century but over time they virtually became a hereditary caste. Some of the Stradioti or their descendants became members of the Ionian nobility while others took to farming.
    "

    I would also like to add that out of the dozens of existing samples under I-Y18331, only one appears to be from Albania, but i don't know whether he is from the Greek, Aromanian, or Slavic minorities of the country. He belongs to a downstream clade of I-A10959 with a TMRCA of 275 ybp. Also, the two Pella Greek samples that you mention are both part of the same family with a TMRCA of 50 ybp, and should be viewed as a single case. Along with them, there is only one other Greek sample of I-Y18331 situated in northern Greece, and he is from the island of Thasos. As aforementioned, largest concentration of Greek I-Y18331 members as well as highest variance is observed in southwestern Greece.

  10. #1635
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    Well Demetrios, i think that you were not so careful\meticulous toward my comments, i mean how can that person (Trimas\Trimi Xenos in village Rolo, Peloponnese, year 1460) considered Greek when his name is a typical Albanian onomastic etymologically meaning: Braveheart !?
    First of all i suggest you to read this Books\Articles concerning the ethnic, demographic and anthroponymic aspects regarding Peloponnese and Naupaktos during the XV century.
    1.The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463)
    2.‘Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561.

    Well to continue the inquiry about the Xenos Clan background, so obviously that Trimi Xeno was a Albanian-speaker (i hope that you will agree about that!?), also Filip Xeno from the Albanian-Arnavudan village Topolova, if we check also the part of Editio Princeps of 1/14662 we will find other interesant Xeno people:
    1 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Melitena, page 471 - Thoma Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Asteri !!
    2 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Rovyata, page 486 - Domenika Xeno & Mesara Xeno, both with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Gin(Gjin) Pelikanos !!
    3 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Gjerbes\Gerbes, page 492 - Trusha Xeno, with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Jorgji Haraktino !!
    4 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Ranbiyaka, page 494 - Perino Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Ranbiyaka!!
    etc

    Where are the Greeks Xeno in Peloponnese during the XV century !? Also about the ethnicity of the Stradiotti, just Google it, > 80 % were Albanians !!!

    From page 10-13 here in this article -http://digital.lib.auth.gr/record/27550/files/arc-2005-6480.pdf?version=1 - of the year 1851 you have the names-surnames-village of the inhabitans of Zakynthos which were allowed to carry guns, you will notice among the Villages such:
    -Toponymy:
    Βελούσι(Belushi) - Κυψέλη, Κουκέσι(Kukeshi)- Καλλιθέα, Βουγιατο(Bujat), Μπούρα(Burra) -Γερακαριου, Παληοκάντουνον(PalioKatund)-Ροΐδιον, Φλόκα(Floka), Μουζακα(Muzaka)... some of whom doesnt exist anymore they were simply "wiped out" !!
    - Surnames\Patronomy:
    Bishtbardhi, Bishtqeni, Muzaki, Ziguri, Plesha, Shkurti, Llapa, Bethulka, Kokla, Shurbi, Floka, Shtruza, Bubuka, Peta, Gushko, Rrushi, Gramsha, Suli, Renesi, Mengulla, Griva, Lunxhi, Hekali, Nenga, Trusha, Bozhiki, Likuresi, Kuci, Maneshi, Gllava, Zguri, Kapandriti, Zhiva, Grekuqi, Lopesi, Losha, Vrioni, Trimi, Mileshi, Brati.... Xeno... etc

    Those are the descendants of the Albanian(Arvanites) Stradiotti that came massively in Zakynthos during the XIV-XV centuries !!

    Xeno Clan from Louchi, Zakynthos has Albanian roots.

  11. #1636
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    About the area around Gargalianoi (Messinia) also about Arcadia etc, (concerning Laconia every Laconian, and not only, its aware of the historical fact that the bulk population were Arvanites!!), i sincerely advice you to read this astonishing Book: The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) https://www.amazon.it/Early-Ottoman-Peloponnese-Annotated-1460-1463/dp/1909942324

  12. #1637
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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    Well Demetrios, i think that you were not so careful\meticulous toward my comments, i mean how can that person (Trimas\Trimi Xenos in village Rolo, Peloponnese, year 1460) considered Greek when his name is a typical Albanian onomastic etymologically meaning: Braveheart !?
    First of all i suggest you to read this Books\Articles concerning the ethnic, demographic and anthroponymic aspects regarding Peloponnese and Naupaktos during the XV century.
    1.The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463)
    2.‘Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561.
    Well to continue the inquiry about the Xenos Clan background, so obviously that Trimi Xeno was a Albanian-speaker (i hope that you will agree about that!?), also Filip Xeno from the Albanian-Arnavudan village Topolova, if we check also the part of Editio Princeps of 1/14662 we will find other interesant Xeno people:
    1 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Melitena, page 471 - Thoma Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Asteri !!
    2 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Rovyata, page 486 - Domenika Xeno & Mesara Xeno, both with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Gin(Gjin) Pelikanos !!
    3 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Gjerbes\Gerbes, page 492 - Trusha Xeno, with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Jorgji Haraktino !!
    4 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Ranbiyaka, page 494 - Perino Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Ranbiyaka!!
    etc
    Where are the Greeks Xeno in Peloponnese during the XV century !? Also about the ethnicity of the Stradiotti, just Google it, > 80 % were Albanians !!!
    From page 10-13 here in this article -http://digital.lib.auth.gr/record/27550/files/arc-2005-6480.pdf?version=1 - of the year 1851 you have the names-surnames-village of the inhabitans of Zakynthos which were allowed to carry guns, you will notice among the Villages such:
    -Toponymy:
    Βελούσι(Belushi) - Κυψέλη, Κουκέσι(Kukeshi)- Καλλιθέα, Βουγιατο(Bujat), Μπούρα(Burra) -Γερακαριου, Παληοκάντουνον(PalioKatund)-Ροΐδιον, Φλόκα(Floka), Μουζακα(Muzaka)... some of whom doesnt exist anymore they were simply "wiped out" !!
    - Surnames\Patronomy:
    Bishtbardhi, Bishtqeni, Muzaki, Ziguri, Plesha, Shkurti, Llapa, Bethulka, Kokla, Shurbi, Floka, Shtruza, Bubuka, Peta, Gushko, Rrushi, Gramsha, Suli, Renesi, Mengulla, Griva, Lunxhi, Hekali, Nenga, Trusha, Bozhiki, Likuresi, Kuci, Maneshi, Gllava, Zguri, Kapandriti, Zhiva, Grekuqi, Lopesi, Losha, Vrioni, Trimi, Mileshi, Brati.... Xeno... etc
    Those are the descendants of the Albanian(Arvanites) Stradiotti that came massively in Zakynthos during the XIV-XV centuries !!
    Xeno Clan from Louchi, Zakynthos has Albanian roots.
    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    About the area around Gargalianoi (Messinia) also about Arcadia etc, (concerning Laconia every Laconian, and not only, its aware of the historical fact that the bulk population were Arvanites!!), i sincerely advice you to read this astonishing Book: The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) https://www.amazon.it/Early-Ottoman-Peloponnese-Annotated-1460-1463/dp/1909942324
    I am careful/meticulous towards your comment, it's just that i don't think you understand the significance for the absence of Albanian members under I-Y18331. Only one exists with a young TMRCA of 275 ybp, out of the dozens of Greek, Jewish, a few Slavic (around four i believe), and a Chuvash family. Then in your first comment you also wrote that "Also a considerable percentage of Arberesh\Arvanites carry hg downstream of I-Y3120.", which doesn't really mean anything, because if they belong to any other branch of that clade they are likely of Slavic patrilineal origin originally. The only real exception seems to be I-Y18331, but as aforementioned it lacks Albanians.

    I am already aware of the book "The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463)". I have even exchanged emails with its author, Georgios Liakopoulos. Unfortunately i don't have the book to verify what you cite, but i am certain that the surname should have existed outside of Arvanite settlements likewise, because your list seems very one-sided, especially if i am to consider the modern distribution of the surname as well, https://i.ibb.co/M8rhP0b/Xenos-surname-distribution.png. I can actually send an email and ask the author, but i don't know when he will answer; the first time he took one month to reply.

    Furthermore, you write "so obviously that Trimi Xeno was a Albanian-speaker (i hope that you will agree about that!?)". No, even with an etymologically Albanian name such as Trimis, i disagree with that. For example, what you have to understand is that the first Albanian migrants entered the Peloponnese around 1330, namely 8000 brought by the Byzantine Despot of Morea, Manuel Kantakouzenos. A number of others followed, and at the pinnacle of Arvanite presence in Peloponnese, they amounted to some 30,000. This is attested by the Venetian chronicler Stefano Magno in his "Annali Veneti" where he mentions that the total number of Arvanites in Peloponnese in 1453 was around 30,000, which per the aforementioned TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) would be 42.42% Arvanite and 57.58% Greek households, or 35.03% Arvanite and 64.96% Greek taxpaying bachelors. These statistics alone are enough to negate any such geneological conclusion simply based on onomastics, because the influence between the two populations would be immense. Then again i cannot currently (i don't have the book) verify how much of the information you share is actually rendered correctly. Also, these statistics are baseless if you are to consider that many of those Arvanites a few decades later would migrate to Italy where we have the Arbereshe, or in Zakynthos as aforementioned, or even all the way to Cyprus, etc.. After all these crucial migrations, true Arvanite presence, as attested in the 1800s, was approximately 10% of the population, with the bulk of them being concentrated in northeastern Peloponnese. For example, Johann Georg von Hahn, who is considered the father of albanology and who lived in Greece for more than 20 years (1843 to 1869), found that throughout Greece at that time (Peloponnese, Central Greece, Cyclades, Evia, and Sporades) there were 158,000 Arvanites, in a total population of 1,096,810 (according to the 1861 census). I can also expand on the sub-regional numbers specifically, but with that data we conclude that the Arvanites throughout the territory were about 14%. Also, we have Alfred Philippson who toured the Peloponnese in 1889 writing "Zur Ethnographie des Peloponnes, Pettersmans Mitteilungen" (1890). This author who focused on Peloponnese states that he managed to count the Arvanites of the Peloponnese and the Hermione Islands (Hydra, Spetses, etc.) at 90,253, in a total population of 730,000 of the same area, or 12% of the total population and 9.5% of the Peloponnese. Here is also a map from his work, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG (the small settlements of Laliotes and Barduniotes Muslim Albanians established during the 18th century aren't shown because they left Peloponnese during the Greek Revolution some decades earlier). Therefore, even if for example a village might have been Albanian back in the 1400s, it doesn't make it so centuries later, and thus toponyms aren't decisive. For example, since Messenia is mentioned, the only Arvanites present in Messenia are the Ntredes who are not situated close to where we find the two I-Y18331 Greek samples. The Arvanites of Messenia and of western Peloponnese in general, were brought by the Genoese Centurione II Zaccaria in 1405, but most of those left as aforementioned some decades later. We even have Arbereshe songs talking about how they left Koroni (in Messenia) for Italy. And since we mention Arbereshe, they seem to be a nice example for understanding Greek-Albanian intermingling, and thus explain why we might have a Trimis Xenos, etc.. For example, in "Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe" (2015), we see that Arbereshe had Greek influence as well, and take note that they only remained in Greece some decades or a little more than a century. Do you think Arvanites in Peloponnese were any different? Indicatively, Costas Biris (an Arvanite author) mentions the view of Alfred Philippson (the one aforementioned) that many of those whom he considers Arvanites, have names and especially surnames exclusively Greek. He therefore studied the percentage of surnames in the community lists of the inhabitants of the Albanian-speaking areas and argued that the proportion among the surnames of the Arvanites is 40% Greek, 35% ambiguous and 25% truly Arvanitika.

    Τhe list you shared from 1851-1852 shows many Greek toponyms and surnames likewise. With that put aside, you will of course find Albanian onomastics in Zakynthos, nobody argued this. By the way, out of the seven toponyms you chose and shared, Παληοκάντουνον is evidently Greek, because παληο- is a Greek prefix, and καντούνι is a Venetian loan (from Canton) found in both Greek (Medieval Greek as well) and Albanian (borrowed via Greek). Also, Ροΐδιον is an original Greek toponym that wasn't changed until 1953 to Αμπελόκηποι (also Greek) by the then president of the region in order to benefit from the supply of food, clothing and other basic necessities, offered via an alphabetical order by the Red Cross to all the villages of the island due to the catastrophic earthquake that year. I didn't check whether the Greek toponyms of Κυψέλη, Καλλιθέα, and Γερακάρι were also original toponyms or not, maybe they were changed but i haven't checked it. As for Φλόκας, it is etymologically Aromanian, loaned to both Greek and Albanian; though Φλόκα seems to be a Stratioti family because the list of the previous message has it. As for the surnames, i don't have the time to go and check if they were rendered correctly, but from a quick look i saw that δε Ρόσσης was rendered as Rrushi by you, while it can be many other things. And Γρίβας is a famous surname in Greece and Cyprus as well, and etymologically traced back to the pre-Arvanite medieval era either from German grewa or Aromanian grivu (through Slavic influence). We even find it in Byzantine poems from the 9th-10th centuries. Ξένος is also of Greek etymology.

    As for the Stratioti, i already know that quote from Wikipedia. That of course doesn't mean anything because it still leaves 20% that were not Albanian, and that fact compliments the genetics, because regardless of all the above historical information, the ethnic variety of I-Y18331 alone evidently makes any association with Arvanite origin hollow, because if for example Xenos, a member of I-Y18331, had any Arvanitic origin you would expect to find a much greater amount of Albanian members under the clade, but you don't. Again, out of the dozens that exist, only one is from Albania, and we don't even know his background to establish whether he is indeed Albanian or a member of a minority. Also, the fact that Xenos himself, who has done an elaborate research on his family, wasn't able to find any Arvanite association, is also crucial. Then again, if the broader Xenos family in Zakynthos had some kind of Arvanitic origin for the most part, there is always the possibility that a family name might have more than one patrilineal haplogroups, for a number of reasons such as another family adopting or being given the same surname, non-paternity events, being adopted as a child, intermingling of families, etc.. And last, Xenos is just a single Greek family who happens to belong to I-Y18331, out of the many others that exist.

  13. #1638
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I am sincerely a little bit astonished and disappointed about the number of incorrect affirmations, anyway, let's 'bust some Myths', how much Arvanites went in Italy during the XV-XVI centuries !!

    - The number of Arvanites who went to Italy from the end of the XV century and the beginning of the XVI (as Stradiote) was a minimum of 3000-4000 people (From Argos, Nafplion, Lepanto, etc.) and fled exactly from the area that continued to remain in the majority Arvanites to this day .. A small part fled during 1520-1534 from Koroni and Metoni, in the Arbereshe Villages in Italy are known as 'Nobili Coronei' names such as Rodota, Stratigo, Dara etc. So still the percentage of Arvanites in southern Greece remained there at 40%, plus during the XVIII century many Labe and Cam orthodox came to Greece who added to the number of Arvanites !!

    In Sicily in the censuses made after 1550 (ie after the arrival of the Arvanites from Corone and Medone) we get these results;
    "The number consisting of approximately 7,500 units originates from 8,234 in 1570 to 8,958 in 1589. This is because the complete population of the islands - Sicily - does not reach as many as 800,000 units."




    Meanwhile, in the Records made by 'Regno di Napoli' in 1542 (which included almost all of southern Italy, except Sicily) there are a total of 5775 Arbereshe !! page 248 https://www.uniba.it/elenco-siti-tem...iealbanesi.pdf




    Let's say that there were approximately> 13,000 Arbereshe around 1550 (after the emptying of Corone and Medone \ Methone)
    The number of people leaving these two cities is estimated at over 8000 people, in the Register of Morea of ​​1461 these cities are not included in the Census because they were under Venetian rule, plus other cities such as Argos, Monemvasia, Nafplion, etc. (with a large number Arvanites\Albanians inhabitans). So even if (per assurdo) most of the Arbereshe come from Greece, still they would not affect that 40% of the Arvanites of the Defter of Morea !!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Now a simple question, where did went all those Arvanites\Albanian of Greece, what happened to them, from 42 % in the XV century they ended up at less than 15 % in the XIX century !?

    read page 13 : https://www.academia.edu/25948006/Th...rea_1387_1460_



    If you read the Defter of Eubea year 1474 "Evangelia Balta: "L'Eubee a la fin du XV siècle, Economie et population, Les registres de l'année 1474" you will realize and observe a interesant phenomena, traditionally only the extreme south of Eubea is considered Arvanitic, in the Defter of 1474, we notice a great number of Albanians inhabiting the central and North of Eubea also, we recognize them by their Anthroponym\Patronym: Gjin, Gjon, Leka, Bardhi, Mengeshe, Shtini, Progon, Gjika, Trimi, Deda, Muzak, Floka, Mazi, Mazarak Manesh, Shurbi, Capoga, Malakas etc etc
    My question is: where have they gone? how did they disappear? did they went in Italy? or did they return to their motherland Arbanon? A real "Mystery", can you help me solve this 'historical enigma'.
    Have you ever heard the term Assimilation, gradual integration ??

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Do you know what is "Μετονομασίες των οικισμών", the Nationalist agenda to change all the non-greek toponimies??
    This is what happened to the Albanian toponym Belushi the was rendered Greek Κυψέλη, Kukeshi -> Καλλιθέα, some were cancelled\forgoten: Μπούρα(Burra), Φλόκα(Floka), a small number survived Μουζακα(Muzaka)!!
    http://www.lithoksou.net/p/metonomas...mon-ton-nision


    Now that really 'shocked' me :) you called the Pan-Albanian Anthroponym-Patronym-Toponym: Φλόκα(Floka) Vlachic .... Demetrios please read more !!


    There are only in Albania today 5 Albanian villages named Floka\Floq, the same number are encountered as Arvanitochoria in Greece, there are hundred of Albanian people (specified as such) within the Ottoman Defters, one of the first evidence of the Albanians in Kosovo, the wellknown "Katuna Arbanaski" the Villages of Albanians in east of Prizren year 1348; Gjinovci-Gjinaj, Gjonovci-Gjonaj, Shpinadinci-Shpinaj, Caparci-Caparaj, Flokovci-Flokaj....


    No Vlach, Greek, Serb or Bulgarian have ever had names such as: Gjon, Gjin, Leka, Deda, Bardhi, Floka etc etc never ....


    If you dont believe me, please read here :‘Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455)’, Ναυπακτιακά 15 (2007-2009), 415-561
    Page 465, reference down n.120, read all the citations and references, you will learn a lot !!

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    The toponym Floka brought me at your hometown Γαργαλιάνων, i discovered a little interesting thing, at the page 130-131 in the Defter of Morea are mentioned the Albanian villages near Gargalianoi: Muzak Mengisa (today village Μουζακα in the east), also a wellknown Albanian toponym Gerbesi\Gjerbes, so the authors Assenova, Stojkov, Kacorri (1977), Georgacas-Mcdonald(1968) determined that the area\place called Κρύψα\Krypsa correspond with this old Albanian Village, can you guess where is situated this place !? Yes ...it's Gargalianoi\Γαργαλιάνων, your hometown ....περιοχή Κρύψα Γαργαλιάνων !!! We have around that area, Pan-Albanian toponimies such as: Floka, Gerbesi, Muzaka, Mali ( meaning mountain in Albanian) etc. Do you understand now why the surnames Krekouki, Gliata etc in your hometown !?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Also there is quite a difference between δε Ρόσσης\de Rossi : Zakynthos year 1851 n.1350 Γεώργιος δε Ρόσσης του Δημητρίου and Ρουσσης\Rrushi: n.1356 Δημήτριος Ρουσσης του Νικολάου, its not so hard to understand!!


    Do you know why that Albanian Village Βουγιατο(Bujati) in Zakynthos, its called so!? It is a Albanian surname - BUA - with the typical Albanian suffix - at\ati - , do you know that the most famous branch\offshoot of that Arvanitic Clan are the Grivas -> Θεόδωρος Μπούα Γρίβας ...there is a explanation for every name in that list!!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Now the case of the "unexpected" case of Zielinski I-Y18331*, also in the FTDNA database from 31 participants downstream I-Y18331 ( two are basal I-Y18331: 'Greek'-Xenos and Polish-Zielinski) 13 members are Greeks, 2 unknown and 16 member generally Slavs ..
    How do you explain this results, do you still believe in the Celtic 'tourists' ?!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post



    I didn't receive any notification for some reason, while i just received notification of torzio's and ihype02's comments.
    You recieve notifications for replies and quotes here? Becuase that never happened to me.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    You recieve notifications for replies and quotes here? Becuase that never happened to me.
    Same. I never get notifications.

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    @ exercitus

    because i have read enough here,
    and because I see an attacking behavour,

    First
    Floka and other are also common words in Aromanian,
    Flokas for example mean wool velvet blanket or carpet, flokos is the rope-tie,
    Gjin is also Aromanian and means good, Surename Gjinis = good man
    Bardi is found all over Greece, look out river Bardar or Vardar it is Thracian and means Black
    Gikas are known Aromanian family.

    So every effort I see here from you it is just a repeat of the same,
    the Arbanites of Greece are proud and know who they are,
    The rest like the Lala Turk-Albanians Left Greece and Peloponese.
    I also suggest read Kolokotronis memories.


    second
    people live but toponyms may stay.
    in my area there is strong toponym of Albanian language. But no Albanian village or people there.
    WHY? because the toponyme enter by Albanian-Ottoman army that existed here, (over 7000 Albanians soldiers) specially after 1860 till Balkan wars.

    Aftermath
    Generic impresions which want to make impressions to ignorants,

    Btw
    tsisi fatsi?
    Gjini tini?
    Vlach language.
    How are you?
    Good and you?


    END
    the only you manage to do is to prove that Albanian has and had strong Aromanian- Rama polulation element

    still I don't understand that with Rousso Rosso etc.
    I will not take it as serious.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #1647
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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    Now the case of the "unexpected" case of Zielinski I-Y18331*, also in the FTDNA database from 31 participants downstream I-Y18331 ( two are basal I-Y18331: 'Greek'-Xenos and Polish-Zielinski) 13 members are Greeks, 2 unknown and 16 member generally Slavs ..
    How do you explain this results, do you still believe in the Celtic 'tourists' ?!
    Venetian dominion on Peloponnese in the end of the 15th and beginning of the 16th century was limited to a few cities/ports, such those of Argos, Modon (Methoni), Coroni, Monemvasia, Naflion, and Patras. It is from these "free" ports that the boarding on to ships and migration was only possible. Unless you think refugees would get boarded in Ottoman controlled ports. It is obvious that Arvanites from throughout Peloponnese assembled in these "free" cities with the aim to leave, not that they were previously inhabiting these cities. Out of all people, you who have access to the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) should know that Arvanites lived mainly in villages of the country side, and this can be explained by the nomadic lifestyle they exercised. By the way, no need to share the article by Levent Kayapinar; where do you think i got the prior statistics i shared?

    Now, on numbers. I already shared the information with you that the Venetian chronicler Stefano Magno in his "Annali Veneti" mentions that the total number of Arvanites in Peloponnese in the end of the 15th century was around 30,000. That is regardless of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) and its census. The total number of Arvanites throughout Peloponnese (including the Venetian cities) was 30,000. You gave a number of approximately 13,000 Arbereshe, but let's say only 10,000 of those came from Peloponnese. We also have many Arvanites that went to Zakynthos, let's say 5,000 which i consider reasonable. 10,000+5,000 = 15,000. 30,000-15,000 = 15,000. That's already half of whom would remain, but it's actually less because Arvanites would have migrated in other places as well. A few went to a number islands in the Aegean, while a big chunk of them would also settle on Hydra and Spetses at the end of the 17th century, so did many Greek families by the way from all over Greece. To give you some perspective. A traveller named De Fleury mentions that Hydra in 1679 had 1000 inhabitants. In 1668 many would migrate on the island, to the point that a little more than a century later at the time of the Greek Revolution Hydra would have 16,500 inhabitants and 10,000 migrants. So, the statistics between 1461 and 1861 actually make sense. At the 1800s Arvanites of Peloponnese were 10% of the population, and that is without considering the frequency of Greek names and surnames among them.

    You also mention the 18th century Labs/Chams. I have already written that these are the Laliotes and Barduniotes who settled in Peloponnese in the 18th century. They were initially Christians but became Muslims, hence the epithet μουρτάτες (turkish "murtad" or apostate).These would leave Peloponnese during the Greek Revolution, which was the case for most if not all the Muslims in Peloponnese consisting of Turks, Albanians, Gypsies, and Greeks. Many went to Antalya (opposite Cyprus), others via Patras, Aigion, and Corinth towards Ottoman controlled areas including Albania. There were no Laliotes or Bardouniotes after the Greek Revolution, and especially when we get the censuses of the 1800s which i shared. Furthermore, the numbers of these Laliotes and Bardouniotes was small. Laliotes amounted to some 3000 and Bardouniotes to some 2000. Take into account that the total population of Peloponnese would be 400,000 based on the census of 1828.

    You also mention Evangelia Balta but you didn't disclose the page. First of all, these surnames are obviously a small minority among all of the surnames found in central and north Euboea, and if you give me the actual names as writen in Greek i will give you an approximate number of inhabitants that have them. But besides that the Arvanites of Euboea were concentrated in south-central/southern part of the island with their northernmost village being Αχλαδερή. Some of those surnames could and surely are traced to Arvanite ancestors, but that's not due to some settlement that got assimilated, but due to free movement. Similarly you will find countless of Greek surnames throughout the southern part where the Arvanite settlements are to be found. By the way, even the southern part wasn't completely Arvanite, since south-western Euboea had a cluster of Greek-speaking presence such as Karystos. Per the census of 1861 southern Euboea (without Karystos which was Greek-speaking) had 17,822 inhabitants in a total population of Euboea amounting to 58,777. Though based on a report of a study by the secretary of the Municipality of Karystos that is also mentioned in the book of Kostas Biris, the number of Arvanites in Euboea during the Ottoman period was some 10,000. Per Johann Georg von Hahn that i mentioned previously, in 1854 Euboea had 25,000 Arvanites in a total population of 72,368, therefore all these statistics compliment each other. As aforementioned free movement on the island can explain why you might have some of those surnames further north, and when you are surrounded by a larger majority it is natural for you to become assimilated. There was no secret plan of such assimilation, especially during a depend period under Ottoman rule.

    If there was a nationalist agenda to change all of the non-Greek toponymes you wouldn't be able to find so many of them throughout the country with some being Slavic, Aromanian, Arvanite, or Turkish. Why does Attica still have so many Arvanite toponymes if there was a plan of replacing them. Furthermore, don't play me the victim please. Maybe you would like to translate for our friends what this following directive from the Albanian Ministry of Interior in 1930 (June 6) says,
    https://i.ibb.co/QP896DF/albania-1930.jpg. It doesn't get any more official that that.

    Regarding Floka, it is an Aromanian loan, from "floc", which respectively has a Latin root from "floccus",
    https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%BA%CE%B1. We also have Romanian "floc". Just because you also find it in Albanian, it doesn't make it of Albanian origin. I saw the reference for Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455), but this is an incomplete etymology. Nonetheless, we do see the surname in settlements inhabited by Aromanians. For example, the region of Kalabaka which has many Aromanians seems to have the second highest frequency throughout Greece. Even if you find it as a toponym of Arvanite areas it doesn't really mean much, because it is almost certain that some Aromanians would have accompanied Arvanites through the migration towards Greece. It is believed intermingling between them happened early due to the fact of an identical nomadic lifestyle and the fact that Aromanians, especially Arvanitovlachs would also speak Albanian. Some authors even consider Bua tribe of Aromanian origin, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bua_(tribe), with their members leading the Arvanite migrants in Peloponnese and later in Italy. I know that the article says minority of authors, but they really aren't with authors such as Pouqueville, Αραβαντινός, Wace, Thompson, Jireček, Iorga, Capidan, Winnifrith, Κουκούδης, and Hammond. It's just that the Albanian editors of that article watered it down.

    I already know the toponyms around Gargalianoi for Christ sake, do you think i am that ignorant. Most of the settlements are of Greek etymology as you can see here,
    https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%AE%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%93%CE%B1%CF%81% CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89%CE%BD, with Gargalianoi itself likewise as you can read in this extensive etymological analysis of the toponym, http://www.grissh.gr/system/articles/assets/5c6e/7438/5574/4153/2200/0033/original/PLATON_FC4198-12.pdf?1550742584. Toponyms such as Floka, Muzaka, and Mali are kilometers away and didn't even used to be part of the old sub-demotic divisions. Mali wasn't even part of the old demotic division. Here is a broader list with many old Messenian toponyms and their etymologies.
    https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion
    https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion-z-k
    https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion-l-x
    https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion-0---o
    With that said, Flokas, Gerbesis, and Mouzakis, are obviously related with the aforementioned stratioti families that eventually migrated to Zakynthos, and thus are simply remnants that have nothing to do with the majority of the local population. There are some surnames with Arvanite etymology but the vast majority aren't. As for the aforementioned toponymes, Γκέρμπεση hasn't even survived, today we use Κρύψα which is of Greek etymology. It's known that stratioti were rewarded with land pieces. For example, Γκέρμπεσης is recorded as one of the stratioti (you can see it in the etymologies of the links above), which although not part of the list you shared in Zakynthos, modern distribution of the surname is exclusively there (the one sample from Athens is obviously a domestic migrant of the capital),
    https://i.ibb.co/rvZvKLd/Gerbesis-name-distribution.png. Same with Floka (which the list above has with an Aromanian etymology), a stratioti family that also migrated to Zakynthos and today as an actual surname (not toponym) has the largest frequency opposite the coast of Zakynthos, https://i.ibb.co/X7NYm1H/Flokas-name-distribution.png. Mouzaki likewise is in the list you shared with the stratioti of Zakynthos. Last, of a personal note my surname is Panagiotopoulos, which is of Greek etymology and found throughout a number of settlements, not just Gargalianoi.

    I told you that i didn't have time to go over the whole list, i looked at it quickly. By the way, Ρούσσης doesn't only render rrushi, but also Greek ρούσσος that has a number of meanings,
    https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82. Also, i did mention Bua above again with his possible Aromanian origin, but on Grivas, i told you that this is a Greek word that can be traced way before the arrival of Arvanites in Greece, even before the appearance of them in the historical record. In Greek γρίβας means the grey horse and can be found all the way back to poems such as Digenis Akritas (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%B9%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%82_%CE%91% CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%82), for example «εις ίππον γρίβαν επιβάς» (Διγενής Ακρίτας - Ζ3358). We find the same word in Aromanian and Albanian. It's even found in Slavic languages and translates as mane of a horse. Obviously Theodoros Buas - Grivas either took it as an epithet or possibly even as a result of intermarriage with one of a Grivas family. I know some authors have considered a relationship simply based on both sharing Γρίβας, but this is a stretch in my opinion. Anyway, Βουγιάτο seems to be unrelated because we find that as a surname in a number of Latin-speaking countries with many versions, and we do know Zakynthos was under Latin administration so nothing out of the ordinary.
    https://forebears.io/surnames/buggiato
    https://forebears.io/x/surnames/buggiatto
    https://forebears.io/surnames/bugiato
    https://forebears.io/surnames/bugiatto
    https://forebears.io/x/surnames/boggiato
    https://forebears.io/surnames/boggiatto

    Anyway, we have diverged from the original topic for no serious reason since I-Y18331 is absent in Albanians. And please try to include everything in a single comment because this appears like spamming. You had to divide it in six?

    There are no 16 Slavic members under I-Y18331. Those Slavic flags under I-Y23115 pertain to Ashkenazim Jewish members, who by the way are known to be a Mediterranean population autosomally and thus a south-to-north migration route is suggested. I gave a hypothesis in relation to them in this post,
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page61?p=603036&viewfull=1#post603036. Zielinski could very likely be of Ashkenazim Jewish origin as well if we consider the fact that many of the members are Jewish, the formation of I-Y23115 being 2100 ybp, and also the fact that Zielinski is a common Jewish name as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieli%C5%84ski. We have given a number of hypotheses in regard to I-Y18331 and the path it took, in prior pages. I support the Bastarnae origin of the I-Y18331 clade, and of I-Y3120 in general. I can elaborate again if you want. In the context of Greece i also like what @Aspar mentions here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page62?p=610471&viewfull=1#post610471, which would pertain to either Slavicized Greeks bringing it to the Peloponnese or Greeks accompanying the Slavs to the Peloponnese especially when you consider the alliance that the Greeks from the Theme of Hellas seem to have had with the Slav archon Akameros.
    Last edited by Demetrios; 27-11-20 at 16:22. Reason: I mistakenly wrote prefecture, when i meant to say sub-demotic and demotic division in the case of Gargalianoi.

  23. #1648
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    You recieve notifications for replies and quotes here? Becuase that never happened to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Same. I never get notifications.
    In the General Settings and under "Messaging & Notification" there is "Deffault Thread Subscription Mode" and the option "Instantly, using email". I usually receive notifications in my email after some minutes or hours, but i was notified of @ihype02's and @torzio's comment (of which i had already replied) some 10 days later. Hence i chose to check and i saw additional posts that i hadn't receive any notification for; still haven't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    Now a simple question, where did went all those Arvanites\Albanian of Greece, what happened to them, from 42 % in the XV century they ended up at less than 15 % in the XIX century !?
    read page 13 : https://www.academia.edu/25948006/Th...rea_1387_1460_
    If you read the Defter of Eubea year 1474 "Evangelia Balta: "L'Eubee a la fin du XV siècle, Economie et population, Les registres de l'année 1474" you will realize and observe a interesant phenomena, traditionally only the extreme south of Eubea is considered Arvanitic, in the Defter of 1474, we notice a great number of Albanians inhabiting the central and North of Eubea also, we recognize them by their Anthroponym\Patronym: Gjin, Gjon, Leka, Bardhi, Mengeshe, Shtini, Progon, Gjika, Trimi, Deda, Muzak, Floka, Mazi, Mazarak Manesh, Shurbi, Capoga, Malakas etc etc
    My question is: where have they gone? how did they disappear? did they went in Italy? or did they return to their motherland Arbanon? A real "Mystery", can you help me solve this 'historical enigma'.
    Have you ever heard the term Assimilation, gradual integration ??
    They weren't albanians if they carried i2a-din, maybe albanian mother at best but then south slavs had been around the balkans for hundreds of years by this point so some of them may have become identified as "albanian" earlier. South slavs moved into Byzantine so that includes Albania and maybe become Arvanites this way. I find it strange how much south slavic y dna there is in Greece and South Albania compared to the small amount in North Albania which was also part of Byzantine and reiionally closer to South slavs

    Maybe the Epirus region was more attractive/civilized during that era and allowed more "immigrants"?
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 27-11-20 at 17:19.

  25. #1650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post


    You also mention Evangelia Balta but you didn't disclose the page. First of all, these surnames are obviously a small minority among all of the surnames found in central and north Euboea, and if you give me the actual names as writen in Greek i will give you an approximate number of inhabitants that have them. But besides that the Arvanites of Euboea were concentrated in south-central/southern part of the island with their northernmost village being Αχλαδερή. Some of those surnames could and surely are traced to Arvanite ancestors, but that's not due to some settlement that got assimilated, but due to free movement. Similarly you will find countless of Greek surnames throughout the southern part where the Arvanite settlements are to be found. By the way, even the southern part wasn't completely Arvanite, since south-western Euboea had a cluster of Greek-speaking presence such as Karystos. Per the census of 1861 southern Euboea (without Karystos which was Greek-speaking) had 17,822 inhabitants in a total population of Euboea amounting to 58,777. Though based on a report of a study by the secretary of the Municipality of Karystos that is also mentioned in the book of Kostas Biris, the number of Arvanites in Euboea during the Ottoman period was some 10,000. Per Johann Georg von Hahn that i mentioned previously, in 1854 Euboea had 25,000 Arvanites in a total population of 72,368, therefore all these statistics compliment each other. As aforementioned free movement on the island can explain why you might have some of those surnames further north, and when you are surrounded by a larger majority it is natural for you to become assimilated. There was no secret plan of such assimilation, especially during a depend period under Ottoman rule.

    North Euboea clearly had an Arvanite component earlier on:
    Lisada - Northwestern Euboea:
    Nikola Kostapetr, Aritidi Kostapetr, Manol Simos, Nikola Kara binar, Kiryako Karabinar, Cyano Karabinar, Yani Apostolo, Dimitri Kamarya, Nikola Kamarya, Nikola diger Kamarya, Mihal Karasuni, Manol Mavro, Yani Balusi, Yani Zinota, Yorgi Iskinari,* Nikola Vasilyor, Kosta Salusi, Kozma Salusi, Yorgi Salusi,

    tetim me-i karye-i L i s a d a

    Yorgi Salusi diger, Nikola Salusi diger, Yorgi Vasila, Yorgi Ivreto, Yani Ivreto, Kiryako Ivreto, Dimitri Ivreto, Nikola Ivreto, Luka Sayita, Yani Luka, Nikola Luka, Nikola Salvit, Manol Vasilikör, Kosta Vasilikor, Yorgi Makri, Istamad Makri, Nikola Makri, Yani Vlahoni, Yorgi Vasilinor, Istam ad Vasilinor, Kosta Agapito, Nikola Kamaki, Dimitri Kamaki, Yani Kamaki, Petro Kamaki, Dimitri Romaniti, Hristofor Romaniti, Aleksi Romaniti, Dimitri Arab,* Nikola Kamarana, Mihal Kamarana, Yorgi Rasula, Nikola Rasula, Dimitri Rasula, Gin damad-i Rasula, Nikola Krasos, Kostandin Krasos, Nikola Guri, Petro Guri, Istefan Palusi, Yani Kursari, Dimitri Kursari, Vasili Sarandi, Mihal Sarandi, Yorgi Kavaco, Dimitri Kacavo, Petro Kavaco, Todor Atlazi, Dimitri Atlazi, Aleksi Istasuli, Nikola Arcuras, p.* 147 Yorgi Istasuli, Istamad Lazomondas, Andriya Midali, Yorgi Kisaki, Nikola Kisaki, Dimitri Toto, Nikola Toti, Yani Sarandi, Yorgi Toto, Yorgi Morya, Yakomo Morya, Dimitri Morayit, Nikola Lalandari, Todor Lalandari, Istefan Lalandari, Yorgi Lalandari, Mihal Kukyopulo, Istamad Harikopulo. Yorgi Livada, Dimitri Livada, Yani Livada, Mihal Halkya, Yorgi Tramasi, Istamad Tumaniti, Yani Avloniti, Gini Agriyomat, Mihal Agriyomat, Yani Agriyimat, Yorgi Agriyomat, Petro Anastas, Hristodulo Kamaki, Manol Davikar, Nikola Kataduka, Istamad Ivreto, Apostoli Drako, Paraski Tomadya, Gini Landari, Kiryako Landari, Mihal Varas, Garuso Davas, Yani Mistros, Nikola Palyatura, Yani Palyatura, Dimitri Valkyoti, Dimitri Anastas, Dimitri Kursari, Yorgi Avlonit, Trogyos Kadikyopulo, Yani Harikyopulo, Andriya Balayot, Istamad Kalayot, Vlasi Gromyo, p.* 148 Petro Romana, Yani Crigar, Petro Balas, Manol Agramyot, Yorgi Agramyot, Nikola Saluti, Yani Karalasa, Papadimitri Kisaryo, Kosta Iksano, Istamad Maromat, Yorgi Nyaka, Todo Dugar, Manol Vavasi, Petro Akaras, Saro Dragumano, Katokuki Cikna, Muruzi Ihsalya, Kosta Mavasari, Potino Muvasa Iksida, Nikola Anastas, Yani Vatikyot, bîve Arhondo, bîve Sumalya, bîve Malalya, bîve tu Vasila, bîve tu Yakomo, bîve tu Simiyu, bîve Harulya.

    https://satellites.pro/Lichada_map

    I have severall other villages. And not all Arvanites carried Albanian names, some of them had Greek names too. I agree that Arvanites were self assimilated by their wish. I don't know about their actual percentage in the north but considering Arvanites in the south were not hellenized it is easy to see that their percentage was not the same in the south as in the north.

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