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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    93 44.08%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    8 3.79%
  • Sea Peoples

    2 0.95%
  • The Sarmatians

    6 2.84%
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    84 39.81%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    18 8.53%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    So per YFull formula, without interferences, the MRCA should be ~1700-1800 ybp. The only way to increase reliability in this figure is to neutralize the current data skewing effect of I-Y23115, by getting more I-Y18331*, I-A2512* and I-A10959* samples on YFull. This new I-Y18331* sample is a good step towards a more balanced calculation, so the number of mutation it will have will be important.


    Of course, a MRCA of 1700-1800 ybp would not change the fact that I-Y18331 is highly diverse in the southern Balkans, and relatively rare among Slavs, so we do not need to immediately equate it with other I-Y3120 lines. But it is difficult to speak of I-Y18331 BCE Balkan migrations with only one single subclade of it (ironically, the one that is not found in the Balkans) showing >1800 ybp estimates.
    It seems that you were right Çerç.
    With the last update, I-Y3120 TMRCA decreased to 1800 ybp.
    It might the result of a change in the computation method since several other subclades seem also concerned.

  2. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    It seems that you were right Çerç.
    With the last update, I-Y3120 TMRCA decreased to 1800 ybp.
    It might the result of a change in the computation method since several other subclades seem also concerned.
    Updated formula for I-Y3120 is (2029+1220+1819+2072+1934)/5=1814.8 ybp, which goes on to show the floating nature of YFull's age estimation. If this holds in the future as well, it would compliment the Gothic invasion of the 3rd century CE, in regards to I-Y18331.

    By the way, it doesn't look like their age estimation methodology was altered. Last update in the relevant page was on September 20th 2019, https://www.yfull.com/faq/what-yfull...n-methodology/. The formula looks the same to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post


    By the way, it doesn't look like their age estimation methodology was altered. Last update in the relevant page was on September 20th 2019, https://www.yfull.com/faq/what-yfull...n-methodology/. The formula looks the same to me.
    I know that nothing was published about it on their site.
    I wrote that because the decrease affected many other subclades (under R1a and R1b as well). I do not think that only newly added samples justify such a generalized decrease. If you look at R-L1029 its forming age dropped by 600 years and the TMRCA by 300. Looking at my own subclade, I noticed that two novel snps are not taken into account now for the age estimation (while they previously were). The general method might remain the same, the recent change hardly seems due to adding new samples only.
    Last edited by Illyri; 20-12-20 at 16:54. Reason: typo

  4. #1679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    I know that nothing was published about it on their site.
    I wrote that because the decrease affected many other subclades (under R1a and R1b as well). I do not think that only newly added samples justify such a generalized decrease. If you look at R-L1029 its forming age dropped by 600 years and the TMRCA by 300. Looking at my own subclade, I noticed that two novel snps are not taken into account now for the age estimation (while they previously were). The general method might remain the same, the recent change hardly seems due to adding new samples only.
    The YFull age estimation formula for some reason didn't include all of the samples even before the new dates were published. It always seemed strange to me. There seems to have been a specific choice of samples in clades with multiple samples. I don't know why or how the rest were being filtered out. But other than that, it does seem like new samples were added on the tree. For example, the medieval sample of Gleb Svyatoslavich (Rurikid prince), used to be at the top of I-Y3120 (calculation was still going on), but has since been moved under I-Y3120 > Y4460 > Y3106 > Y91535. I assume the same is true for many others as well under a number of subclades, though i am not sure because i didn't have my eye on them. I also noticed that the position of the clades and subclades changed. The same happened about a month ago, and then changed back to normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The YFull age estimation formula for some reason didn't include all of the samples even before the new dates were published. It always seemed strange to me. There seems to have been a specific choice of samples in clades with multiple samples. I don't know why or how the rest were being filtered out. But other than that, it does seem like new samples were added on the tree. For example, the medieval sample of Gleb Svyatoslavich (Rurikid prince), used to be at the top of I-Y3120 (calculation was still going on), but has since been moved under I-Y3120 > Y4460 > Y3106 > Y91535. I assume the same is true for many others as well under a number of subclades, though i am not sure because i didn't have my eye on them. I also noticed that the position of the clades and subclades changed. The same happened about a month ago, and then changed back to normal.
    For what I know, the non included samples are those for which the age estimation was not finished when the last update (8.09) was completed. Those which are now ready will be included with the current update and will get their final position on the tree. Most of the new samples added during the last two months are "ancient" samples from scientific studies (like the rurikid prince you mention). As sich, they are not included in yfull's calculations relate to age (the age buton refers to the age mentionned in the scientific papers). In one or two cases the age of the ancient sample is older than the age estimation of the subclade (based on member's samples).

    The update process causes the change of position of the subclades and once it is finished all will be reversed and they will get at their initial position (but with the new age estimates).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    If this holds in the future as well, it would compliment the Gothic invasion of the 3rd century CE, in regards to I-Y18331.
    It cannot be ruled out.
    As the geography would be relevant for the chronology of the events, where would you say the Goths picked it up and assimilated it ?
    Or do you think that it was an original gothic lineage ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    It seems that you were right Çerç.
    With the last update, I-Y3120 TMRCA decreased to 1800 ybp.
    It might the result of a change in the computation method since several other subclades seem also concerned.
    Update is not finished. Most tnrca fluctuations are a bug according to yfull. Several ancients are older than the new formation date for example.

    Something similar happened last time. Last time it was fixed a few weeks after the update.

  8. #1683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    It cannot be ruled out.
    As the geography would be relevant for the chronology of the events, where would you say the Goths picked it up and assimilated it ?
    Or do you think that it was an original gothic lineage ?
    Haven't really dwelt deep into the Gothic hypothesis other than finding it rational both from a geographical and chronological aspect, if we do eventually narrow down to approximately 1800 ybp (let's wait for the end of the update to be sure). But let me try and provide a framework now that i think about it. First of all, i don't think it would be a Gothic original line. I am still of the opinion that I-Y3120 would have ended up in eastern Europe via the Bastarnae or some other Celtic/Gallic proper tribe, centuries earlier (per the current formation date of I-Y3120 and the distribution of its samples). It could have been assimilated by Goths as they were expanding in eastern Europe around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE, but it isn't required for them to have assimilated the line in order for it to have ended up in the southern Balkans through the Gothic invasions. I assume that other neighboring people would have also taken part in the Gothic invasions of the southern Balkans in the 3rd century CE, and could have also carried the line instead.

    The Wielbark culture, located in Poland, is seen as the first cultural area of the Goths after their migration from Scandza (?). Let me include a relative Wikipedia segment for what followed:
    Movement towards the Black Sea
    Beginning in the middle 2nd century, the Wielbark culture shifted southeast towards the Black Sea. During this time the Wielbark culture is believed to have ejected and partially absorbed peoples of the Przeworsk culture. This was part of a wider southward movement of eastern Germanic tribes, which was probably caused by massive population growth. As a result, other tribes were pushed towards the Roman Empire, contributing to the beginning of the Marcomannic Wars. By 200 AD, Wielbark Goths were probably being recruited into the Roman army.
    According to Jordanes, the Goths entered Oium, part of Scythia, under the king Filimer, where they defeated the Spali. The name Spali may mean "the giants" in Slavic, and the Spali were thus probably not Slavs. In the early 3rd century AD, western Scythia was inhabited by the agricultural Zarubintsy culture and the nomadic Sarmatians. Prior to the Sarmatians the area had been settled by the Bastarnae, who are believed to have carried out a migration similar to the Goths in the 3rd century BC. Peter Heather considers the Filimer story to be at least partially derived from Gothic oral tradition. The fact that the expanding Goths appear to have preserved their Gothic language during their migration, suggests that their movement involved a fairly large number of people.
    By the mid 3rd century AD, the Wielbark culture had contributed to the formation of the Chernyakhov culture in Scythia. This strikingly uniform culture came to stretch from the Danube in the west to the Don in the east. It is believed to have been dominated by the Goths and other Germanic groups such as the Heruli. It nevertheless also included Iranian, Dacian, Roman and probably Slavic elements as well.

    The Chernyakhov culture flourished between the 2nd and 5th centuries CE, in a wide area of eastern Europe, specifically in what is now Ukraine, Romania, Moldova and parts of Belarus. It is thought to be the result of a multiethnic cultural mix of the Sarmatian, Slavic, Gothic, and Geto-Dacian (including Romanized Daco-Romans) populations of the area. This can easily be seen as corroboration for either the adoption of the line by the Goths, or the accompanying of different people carrying the line as the Goths made their way towards the southern Balkans, since the environment was multiethnic after all. Here is also a map to give you some geographical perspective. Red area shows the extent of the Wielbark culture and the orange area shows the extent of the Chernyakhov culture.



    And of course the Bastarnae that i have mentioned in many of my previous posts, were also present in the area prior of them. Furthermore, Goths absorbing people of the Przeworsk culture is very crucial, because the Przeworsk culture, along with its Germanic elements, has also been linked to the proto-Slavs, whose descends certainly contributed to the expansion of the line some centuries later. Another interesting note is that the Goths of the Wielbark culture were being recruited as soldiers in the Roman Army by 200 CE, although i doubt those recruits had anything to do with the expansion of the line south.

    Let me close by sharing a couple of maps showing the Gothic invasions south. Again, this is just a hypothesis, and its weight can only be measured safely as we collect additional data in the future.




  9. #1684
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The position of the subclades in YFull's YTree seem to have returned back to normal. Also, the following note has been posted concerning the dates:

    • An important message about ages •
    • An important message •
    We were looking forward to the new version of the YTree, but unfortunately, many ages in this release of the YTree are incorrect due to an error during the update. Since we are continually improving our algorithms, it is difficult to avoid mistakes completely. Now we have localized the problem and will be fixing it. It was the largest release in terms of the number of added subclades and new SNPs, and the number of added ancient samples was over 400! These facts also influenced the time taken to prepare the YTree release recalculation. We expect the release of the revised version of the YTree within 10-15 days. Thank you for your patience and your support. We hope for your understanding.
    Best regards, YFull Team
    12.21.2020

    All of the dates have been taken out of the YTree for the time being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The position of the subclades in YFull's YTree seem to have returned back to normal. Also, the following note has been posted concerning the dates:

    • An important message about ages •
    • An important message •
    We were looking forward to the new version of the YTree, but unfortunately, many ages in this release of the YTree are incorrect due to an error during the update. Since we are continually improving our algorithms, it is difficult to avoid mistakes completely. Now we have localized the problem and will be fixing it. It was the largest release in terms of the number of added subclades and new SNPs, and the number of added ancient samples was over 400! These facts also influenced the time taken to prepare the YTree release recalculation. We expect the release of the revised version of the YTree within 10-15 days. Thank you for your patience and your support. We hope for your understanding.
    Best regards, YFull Team
    12.21.2020

    All of the dates have been taken out of the YTree for the time being.
    Yes, that's it. Up to now, this is the information that appears in my Yfull account:




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    Some "written" history on south slavs in Greece which may (at least partially) explain why so much i2a-din in Greece -

    "Byzantine literary accounts (i.e., John of Ephesus, etc.) mention the Slavs raiding areas of Greece during the 580s. According to later sources such as The Miracles of Saint Demetrius, the Drougoubitai, Sagoudatai, Belegezitai, Baiounetai, and Berzetai laid siege to Thessaloniki in 614–616.[37] However, this particular event was actually of local significance.[38] A combined effort of the Avars and Slavs two years later also failed to take the city. In 626, a combined Avar, Bulgar and Slav army besieged Constantinople. The siege was broken, which had repercussions upon the power and prestige of the Avar khanate. Slavic pressure on Thessaloniki ebbed after 617/618, until the Siege of Thessalonica (676–678) by a coalition of Rynchinoi, Sagoudatai, Drougoubitai and Stroumanoi attacked. This time, the Belegezites also known as the Velegeziti did not participate and in fact supplied the besieged citizens of Thessaloniki with grain. It seems that the Slavs settled on places of earlier settlements and probably merged later with the local populations of Greek descent to form mixed Byzantine-Slavic communities. The process was stimulated by the conversion of the Slavic tribes to Orthodox Christianity on the Balkans, during the same period.[39]
    A number of medieval sources attest to the presence of Slavs in Greece. While en route to the Holy Land in 732, Willibald "reached the city of Monemvasia, in the land of Slavinia". This particular passage from the Vita Willibaldi is interpreted as an indication of a Slavic presence in the hinterland of the Peloponnese.[40] In reference to the plague of 744–747, Constantine VII wrote during the 10th century that "the entire country [of the Peloponnese] was Slavonized"

    A lot more on this here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

    A weird painting there too which shows various groups - the Gallia look darker tonned than other groups?? South slavs darker than Roma, these surely can't be the same Roma people that are discriminated today in europe?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...f_Otto_III.jpg

  12. #1687
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Some "written" history on south slavs in Greece which may (partially) explain why so much i2a-din in Greece -
    "Byzantine literary accounts (i.e., John of Ephesus, etc.) mention the Slavs raiding areas of Greece during the 580s. According to later sources such as The Miracles of Saint Demetrius, the Drougoubitai, Sagoudatai, Belegezitai, Baiounetai, and Berzetai laid siege to Thessaloniki in 614–616.[37] However, this particular event was actually of local significance.[38] A combined effort of the Avars and Slavs two years later also failed to take the city. In 626, a combined Avar, Bulgar and Slav army besieged Constantinople. The siege was broken, which had repercussions upon the power and prestige of the Avar khanate. Slavic pressure on Thessaloniki ebbed after 617/618, until the Siege of Thessalonica (676–678) by a coalition of Rynchinoi, Sagoudatai, Drougoubitai and Stroumanoi attacked. This time, the Belegezites also known as the Velegeziti did not participate and in fact supplied the besieged citizens of Thessaloniki with grain. It seems that the Slavs settled on places of earlier settlements and probably merged later with the local populations of Greek descent to form mixed Byzantine-Slavic communities. The process was stimulated by the conversion of the Slavic tribes to Orthodox Christianity on the Balkans, during the same period.[39]
    A number of medieval sources attest to the presence of Slavs in Greece. While en route to the Holy Land in 732, Willibald "reached the city of Monemvasia, in the land of Slavinia". This particular passage from the Vita Willibaldi is interpreted as an indication of a Slavic presence in the hinterland of the Peloponnese.[40] In reference to the plague of 744–747, Constantine VII wrote during the 10th century that "the entire country [of the Peloponnese] was Slavonized"
    A lot more on this here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni
    A weird painting there too which shows various groups - the Gallia look darker tonned than other groups?? South slavs darker than Roma. These surely can't be the same Roma people that are discriminated today in south europe?
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...f_Otto_III.jpg
    Happy new year everyone.

    I wouldn't describe I2a-Din as that much of an important line in Greece. For example, in Eupedia's
    Y-DNA haplogroups frequency by country webpage I2*/I2a (pertaining to the broader haplogroup) is listed as 9.5%, with the "South" designation which stands for "Peloponnese, Attica, and Athens" being at 9%. Furthermore, if i had to make a guess based on what i have seen i would say that half of that belongs to the pre-Slavic I-Y18331 branch.

    As for the painting, it's not from Greece or anywhere close to it. This is a painting (an example of Ottonian art) from the Gospels of Otto III (
    Holy Roman Emperor from 996 until his early death in 1002). It shows four women approaching him, who represent the four provinces of his empire (Germany, France, northern Italy, and the Slavic east) and are reminiscent of Christ being approached by the three Biblical Magi. Despite that, artistic pieces don't always strive for realism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Happy new year everyone.
    I wouldn't describe I2a-Din as that much of an important line in Greece. For example, in Eupedia's
    Y-DNA haplogroups frequency by country webpage I2*/I2a (pertaining to the broader haplogroup) is listed as 9.5%, with the "South" designation which stands for "Peloponnese, Attica, and Athens" being at 9%. Furthermore, if i had to make a guess based on what i have seen i would say that half of that belongs to the pre-Slavic I-Y18331 branch.
    As for the painting, it's not from Greece or anywhere close to it. This is a painting (an example of Ottonian art) from the Gospels of Otto III (
    Holy Roman Emperor from 996 until his early death in 1002). It shows four women approaching him, who represent the four provinces of his empire (Germany, France, northern Italy, and the Slavic east) and are reminiscent of Christ being approached by the three Biblical Magi. Despite that, artistic pieces don't always strive for realism.
    Do you have a database of Greek dna I can look at because have been told that i2a din is actually more than 10% in Greece without including Y18331

    I know the painting isn't from Greece, it's a painting to show roughly what each group looked like at that time - the German is accurate so not sure why the rest shouldn't be. What do they mean by Roma there? Surely not Romani people and I assume people of Rome instead

  14. #1689
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Do you have a database of Greek dna I can look at because have been told that i2a din is actually more than 10% in Greece without including Y18331
    I know the painting isn't from Greece, it's a painting to show roughly what each group looked like at that time - the German is accurate so not sure why the rest shouldn't be. What do they mean by Roma there? Surely not Romani people and I assume people of Rome instead
    YFull's Y-Tree and FTDNA's database would actually provide a nice approximation, but i am not aware of any such frequency table that has collected all of the results, other than Eupedia's "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage" webpage that i already shared, which is based on a number of genetic studies which you can read here, under "Italy & Greece".

    I don't think that the artist of the aforementioned painting attempted to realistically represent the people that are mentioned. He probably only introduced the darker-toned figures in order to provide some realism to the parallelization of the Biblical Magi (who would have looked Middle-Eastern) with that of Otto III's representation of provinces. The names of the painting are written in Latin, and thus "Roma" pertains to Italy's Rome, or from a broader perspective, the northern Italian province of the Holy Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    YFull's Y-Tree and FTDNA's database would actually provide a nice approximation, but i am not aware of any such frequency table that has collected all of the results, other than Eupedia's "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage" webpage that i already shared, which is based on a number of genetic studies which you can read here, under "Italy & Greece".

    I don't think that the artist of the aforementioned painting attempted to realistically represent the people that are mentioned. He probably only introduced the darker-toned figures in order to provide some realism to the parallelization of the Biblical Magi (who would have looked Middle-Eastern) with that of Otto III's representation of provinces. The names of the painting are written in Latin, and thus "Roma" pertains to Italy's Rome, or from a broader perspective, the northern Italian province of the Holy Roman Empire.
    The results on there aren't accurate, it is skewed due to lack of data. Surely there is a database of Greek dna somewhere on the internet

    Why is the German clearly accurate? It is true that they intentionally misportrayed biblical figures to suit an agenda such as jesus but can also be forgiven as they painted him hundred years later with little knowledge of his appearance. However, not sure why they should need to innacurrately portray these groups of people at such a time only 1000 years ago when they were living amongst them for hundreds of years already!

    And the 3 magi were sometimes portrayed in a similar tone - https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...magi-gifts.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    The results on there aren't accurate, it is skewed due to lack of data. Surely there is a database of Greek dna somewhere on the internet
    Why is the German clearly accurate? It is true that they intentionally misportrayed biblical figures to suit an agenda such as jesus but can also be forgiven as they painted him hundred years later with little knowledge of his appearance. However, not sure why they should need to innacurrately portray these groups of people at such a time only 1000 years ago when they were living amongst them for hundreds of years already!
    And the 3 magi were sometimes portrayed in a similar tone - https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...magi-gifts.jpg
    Inaccurate is a misnomer. It is simply a statistical approximation which also happens to include subdivisions. Such approximations naturally strive for accuracy, and the more larger and diverse the database, the better the accuracy hypothetically. But objectively the only way to claim actual accuracy would be if we had a database of all the Greek samples throughout the world, which isn't happening anytime soon. Other than that, i quickly went through FTDNA's "Greek DNA Project"'s results (as seen in its chart), and out of the 279 samples that are listed without counting the Ungrouped and XXother or unknown originXX divisions, we get 39 samples or 13.98% downstream of I2-P37, 26 samples or 9.32% downstream of I-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), with 10 samples or 3.58% under the pre-Slavic I-Y18331 and 13 samples or 4.66% under the Slavic branches of I-S17250, I-Y4460, and I-Z17855. There are 3 remaining samples or 1.08% under I-CTS10228, which could end up under any of the two aforementioned I2a-Din subgroups (i doubt they could belong to an unidentified branch).

    Mate you give too much weight on an artistic representation. I shared my opinion of the artist probably wanting to make some parallelization to the three Biblical Magi who would have had a darker skin tone (the new image you shared is a nice example). Hence probably why the presented sequence of the four figures alternates between two pairs of lighter and darker skin tones; in a way trying to merge his society with that of the
    Holy Land's. Another hypothesis is that he might wanted to represent all the seemingly possible combinations of the physical characteristics of the citizenry under the Holy Roman Empire, even if the representation is disproportionate realistically. For example, observe that he included two darker skin toned figures with lighter and darker hair, and two lighter skin toned figures with lighter and darker hair. Alternatively and less likely, the artist might have projected "Sclavinia" (Slavic areas) and "Gallia" (France) with darker skin tones subjectively. Who knows, maybe he had Scandinavian characteristics and was surrounded by a society with predominantly Scandinavian-type features, with even the slightest difference appearing more intense to his eyes. I say less likely because both the Slavic and French provinces of the Holy Roman Empire would have had people with predominantly light features likewise. These are of course hypotheses. Again, artists don't always strive for realism, and even when they do it is subjective.

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    Dear Dimitrios or everyone who knows,
    Regarding the figure you have in your post from 13-08-20, 09 : 43. I 've taken the 23andme DNA test. Can you propose a deep YDNA test that could find these subclades? Is there any or are these found only in research and not by commercial companies?
    Regards

  18. #1693
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum View Post
    Dear Dimitrios or everyone who knows,
    Regarding the figure you have in your post from 13-08-20, 09 : 43. I 've taken the 23andme DNA test. Can you propose a deep YDNA test that could find these subclades? Is there any or are these found only in research and not by commercial companies?
    Regards
    Hello mate and welcome to the forum. The test provided by 23andMe is primarily an autosomal (also known as atDNA) test, namely its results pertain to the ancestry you inherited from the sum of all your ancestors. It also includes Y-DNA and mtDNA minor information, but in order to learn more, additional analysis is required. You have a number of options which i will describe below. Before that, as a side note, Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups/clades/subclades pertain to your patrilineal and matrilineal origin respectively, and are basically genetic trivial information that can help you identify historical populations and understand their movements better, for a personal and collective educational benefit. Here is also a simple image to help you understand the differences between the three terms, https://i.ibb.co/sKGWrcY/Overview-DNA-en-DNA.png. Now let me share the options you have.

    First and foremost, you have some free options that can give you some additional information and these are Y-DNA subclade predictors, such as the one by Chris Morley (https://ytree.morleydna.com/extractFromAutosomal) and the one by YSEQ (https://cladefinder.yseq.net/). Personally i liked YSEQ's more, since it provided slightly more depth for my case, but try both of them. You have to download your 23andMe raw data and then upload it on the aforementioned websites and you will receive a prediction within a minute or so. Now that is very useful, because when you get this information you can filter through YSEQ's list of single (singleton) and panel SNP tests, focusing on specific downstream analysis. This route is what i personally chose, and essentially saved me a lot of money that would otherwise be spent on tests that provide similar or identical depth.

    But this process also has its limitations, because it tries to assign your sample on the already existing Y-tree (part of which is shown on the image you referenced), and isn't focusing on finding your actual terminal SNP. For this you would have to pay more, via an NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) test. There are two types of NGS tests, such as the Big Y of FTDNA or the YElite of FGC, which focus on the genealogically relevant regions of the Y chromosome, and the WGS (Whole Genome Sequencing) tests which as the name suggests read the whole genome, including all of the mtDNA and autosomal DNA. FGC and YSEQ both offer WGS tests, among their other products. Personally i haven't done an NGS test due to my small budget, therefore my knowledge on them is limited.

  19. #1694
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    The MRCA estimate dates are back up at YFull. They have Y18331 and its major subclades forming 2,200 years ago. Weren’t they supposed to shorten these dates? Accurate MRCA dates can point to which historical migration/invasion brought Y18331 to Greece and other south Balkan areas.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/

  20. #1695
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    The MRCA estimate dates are back up at YFull. They have Y18331 and its major subclades forming 2,200 years ago. Weren’t they supposed to shorten these dates? Accurate MRCA dates can point to which historical migration/invasion brought Y18331 to Greece and other south Balkan areas.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
    Yeah, i also saw it days ago. I believe they changed on the 4th, and the note was taken out on the 5th, namely after the limit of 15 days had passed. As for your question, regardless of if this calculation is right or wrong, we should all take note that it isn't meant to be accurate. It is just an estimation, similar to the previous ones. That's why we shouldn't be that much granular in terms of what are just average dates of estimations in the end of the day. If anything, we should be focusing more on the ranges established by these estimations. For example, current estimations give us a range of 1784-2375 ybp for the TMRCA of I-Y3120, while for I-Y18331 a range of 1502-2274 ybp, in order to work out and consider certain hypotheses. The current average estimation for the TMRCA of I-Y18331 is taken from one of its subclades, namely I-A10959 (that also happens to have most of the members under I-Y18331) which has an estimated range of 1675-2676 ybp and an average of 2175 ybp (or through YFull's rounding of numbers, 2200 ybp), and through the rational basis that the father can't be younger than the child this downstream estimation is adopted for all of I-Y18331. Without this approach, the current average of I-Y18331 stands at 1912 ybp, which in any case is also 100 years older than the old average of it being at 1818 ybp. So yes, estimations were pushed back with the new update by some 100 years. Unfortunately the age estimation for the Polish I-Y18331* wasn't published and accounted with the new update.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    The MRCA estimate dates are back up at YFull. They have Y18331 and its major subclades forming 2,200 years ago. Weren’t they supposed to shorten these dates? Accurate MRCA dates can point to which historical migration/invasion brought Y18331 to Greece and other south Balkan areas.
    The dates will likely go down once more I-Y23115- and I-A10959- samples get on YFull. The increase did not come from new data, but because the YFull team decided to take into account the number of samples for every branch, giving more weight to branches with more samples. This new approach generally makes sense but for I-Y18331 it further accentuates the impact of the outlier branch on TMRCA calculations. Nonetheless, this skewing effect should only be temporary as data from new samples will balance it out.

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    Thank you, this was really helpful!

    [QUOTE=Demetrios;617578]Hello mate and welcome to the forum.

    Dear Demetrios, I am aware of the differences between atDNA and YDNA or mtDNA. But your answer is a full answer useful for everybody, I really appreciate it. I was not aware of the free services you mentioned and I thought that deeper YDNA testing was more about STR testing and this information could not be derived from SNP testing. So my question could've been which is the best option for a YDNA STR test, and indeed it seems that FTDNA is a very good option for that!
    Thank you once again, a really great answer!
    Regards

  23. #1698
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum View Post
    Dear Demetrios, I am aware of the differences between atDNA and YDNA or mtDNA. But your answer is a full answer useful for everybody, I really appreciate it. I was not aware of the free services you mentioned and I thought that deeper YDNA testing was more about STR testing and this information could not be derived from SNP testing. So my question could've been which is the best option for a YDNA STR test, and indeed it seems that FTDNA is a very good option for that!
    Thank you once again, a really great answer!
    Regards
    Thank you. Yes, i haven't done any STR analysis but from what i have seen FTDNA's products are considered the most popular out there.

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    I-Y18331* mutation probable show that source of that mutation is in Poland(based on a new sample from Poland), while brotherly mutation is in Ukraine. Given that White Croats do not bring this mutation in migration to the Balkans it is apparently the earlier departure of part of the tribe from the area of southern Poland towards Ukraine and from these areas, whether in the migrations of the Slavs or earlier through the Greek colonies on the Black Sea, they migrate towards the Greece.

  25. #1700
    Regular Member Demetrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I-Y18331* mutation probable show that source of that mutation is in Poland(based on a new sample from Poland), while brotherly mutation is in Ukraine. Given that White Croats do not bring this mutation in migration to the Balkans it is apparently the earlier departure of part of the tribe from the area of southern Poland towards Ukraine and from these areas, whether in the migrations of the Slavs or earlier through the Greek colonies on the Black Sea, they migrate towards the Greece.
    That Polish sample is not that new. We have already touched upon it in this thread some two months ago. He could very well be descended from an Ashkenazim Jewish family for all we know, and thus be related with the hypothesized south-to-north migration of Jewish I-Y23115, though part of a different unidentified subclade of I-Y18331. If in the future we see other Polish Slavic samples sharing this subclade with him, and with an early TMRCA (very important), then it would suggest that it is indeed a local subclade and would further give credit to the hypothesis of I-Y18331 having been formed in Poland before migrating south and east, again possibly with the Celtic, Bastarnae, or Gothic migrations (depending on the actual TMRCA of I-Y18331). If on the other hand we have a good amount of Jewish samples within this subclade, it would suggest that even the supposed Slavs could likely be Slavicized Jews. It's still too early to know for sure. Τake note that Zielinski (the Polish sample's surname) is also a common surname among the Jews of Poland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieli%C5%84ski. Right now we only know that there appear to be four subclades under I-Y18331, two of them I-Y18331* (one from Greece, one from Poland), one largely Greek-Jewish, and one Greek-Ukrainian (1150 ybp TMRCA - making the Greek colonies of the Black Sea a highly unlikely source for the spread of the line to the southern Balkans; not only because of its TMRCA, but also due to the lack of Ukrainian samples in I-Y18331 as a whole).

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