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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

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  • The Early Indo-Europeans

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  • Sea Peoples

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  • The Sarmatians

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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    You must answer first what you mean by germanic. There is no question it is proven by ancient DNA that I2 is found in ancient sample in what is today modern 'germany'.

    The problem is, there is I2 found in EVERY culture of europe, slav/germ/celt/med.

    I2 is not like many other Hg that is some way restrict to one arriving land-conquering people, and its samples in Europe are so old (and not joined by ANY I1) that they may predate of arriving slav/germ/celt/med cultures.

    I see very clearly that not one culture or ethnic of europe can claim I2 because it is remnants of a aboriginy that live in europe before these modern culture come in or maybe even exist. Some place like in Balkans they are sheiled by mountain and terrain and more manage to survive, but in places with less protective land or no mountain the I2 aboriginy are mistreate and kill by new cultures who come on to rule over the I2 left in europe.

    try to place I2 as being the germ/celt/slav/med is not going to work because they are subjected to all these peoples, and today they are found to some degree among the population of all these peoples they manage to adopt into.
    I agree that germanic people arrived where they where after the I2a-din arrived in the balkans
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    Remember that After the Two World Wars Germany lost a lot historic Germanic territory in the east! Poland was located much more to the east!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    The problem is, there is I2 found in EVERY culture of europe, slav/germ/celt/med.
    We're not talking about I2, we're talking about its subclade, I2a-Din (I2a1b1a in Nordtvedt's hierarchy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I2a -Din is older than germanic or slavic its older than the Unitice culture in which the illyrians where in the centre of.
    Maybe for Slavic, but I think that proto-Germanic is likely older or comparable and Unetice Culture is certainly older. Remember that the estimate for its TMRCA is ~2500 YBP, and even if you think that's too young an estimate, you have to acknowledge that it's a young subclade as far as I2 subclades go.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Historians tells us, that I2a-din is found south of the Galindian people , these people are west-baltic people of modern masuria.
    Historians don't tell us anything about I2a-Din, what are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The only conclusion is that I2a-din came from slovak, hungarian and southern polish area and was brought into the balkans by the Illyrians. prior to this the balkans had E1b in the south and J2 in the north ( I am speaking of the major Haplotype).
    Actually, this theory works decently given the diversity, as long as we assume that Nordtvedt's estimates are too young, considering that we're really just talking about I2a-Din-S when we talk about coming down from Poland and nearby. But I don't see a reason to assume an Illyrian migration in the same way that we have a Slavic migration. Why can't they be more ancient in the area, like the Albanians and the Hellenes? In which case, the Illyrians would have been mostly J2, R1b, and E1b themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What year was I2a - 13000 years BC or earlier?
    I2a is about 21,000 years old. But we're talking about I2a-Din, which is much, much younger.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Paleolithic continuity 50%

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    Actually, this theory works decently given the diversity, as long as we assume that Nordtvedt's estimates are too young, considering that we're really just talking about I2a-Din-S when we talk about coming down from Poland and nearby. But I don't see a reason to assume an Illyrian migration in the same way that we have a Slavic migration. Why can't they be more ancient in the area, like the Albanians and the Hellenes? In which case, the Illyrians would have been mostly J2, R1b, and E1b themselves.



    .
    the illyrians had to have migrated into the balkans because the greek historians only have illyrians recorded from the 4th century BC in their history and also the myceneans had outposts as far as Istria.
    Who inhabited these "illyrian" lands in the balkans ?. Maybe dorians, thracians, epirotes in the southern illyrian parts and maybe the Norici , raeti and pannonians ( if there is such a people) in the northern part

    I get the feeling that illyrians where either related to the east germanics ( before there was germanic ) or very close cultural neighbours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    the illyrians had to have migrated into the balkans because the greek historians only have illyrians recorded from the 4th century BC in their history and also the myceneans had outposts as far as Istria.
    Who inhabited these "illyrian" lands in the balkans ?. Maybe dorians, thracians, epirotes in the southern illyrian parts and maybe the Norici , raeti and pannonians ( if there is such a people) in the northern part

    I get the feeling that illyrians where either related to the east germanics ( before there was germanic ) or very close cultural neighbours.
    Interesting Idea, although I share it different,

    For me Illyrians was a mix of a kind celts (Illyro-Celts?, balkan-Celts?, Pannoni basin celts?) with Cadmeians, and Albanians-Albocense were a east para-Germanic or para-Slavic (considering the exist of Torbesh which maybe is > 15-20% of population) as you propose it, Getae-Dacian or Thracian for me.
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    Well.... I've found on a forum this map which shows migrations of Serbs from the central Europe to the south. If I understood it correctly, this movement is related with the I2a1 Dinaric South.

    dinaric%u002520south%20serbs%20-%20Copy.jpg

    Who can explain this a little bit more?

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Well.... I've found on a forum this map which shows migrations of Serbs from the central Europe to the south. If I understood it correctly, this movement is related with the I2a1 Dinaric South.

    dinaric%u002520south%20serbs%20-%20Copy.jpg

    Who can explain this a little bit more?
    this refers only to the period after the fall of the roman empire, I am talking about the bronze age which is over 1000 years before the data of the map above

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Well.... I've found on a forum this map which shows migrations of Serbs from the central Europe to the south. If I understood it correctly, this movement is related with the I2a1 Dinaric South.

    dinaric%u002520south%20serbs%20-%20Copy.jpg

    Who can explain this a little bit more?
    That map is from a hobbyist at DNA Forums who took whatever proven I2a-Din-S he could find and attempted to fit its distribution to known Slavic migrations (he explicitly called them "Serb" migrations). IIRC, he relies heavily on the young Nordtvedt estimate of its age, and corresponds the origin to an area of peak diversity of I2a-Din-S observed by Verenich. After that, it's just a best-guess fit.

    I actually found it to be a quality analysis, on par with Verenich's, although it has a lot of assumptions built into it, and may give an incorrect picture of how precisely we know things about I2a-Din-S at the moment. At least, it shows the coherence of assuming I2a-Din-S to be a relatively young Western (rather than Southern) branch of I2a-Din.

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    Well what if I2A dinaric appeared in Carpathians and Dinaric Alps,from a mutation from another I2 ?
    I mean Ken Nortvedt is saying that I2A dinaric is pretty young.
    I understood that some Y DNA tests found a large variety of I2A dinaric in these two places mentioned above.

    "Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."
    (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...-DNA%29#I2a1b1)

    I am not agreeing with the part written with italic,those are just supositions,but what is told above with the age of I2A dinaric I think it can be proved scientifically.

    Now if you wonder from where the I2 from which I2A dinaric appeared by some mutation is,no ideea,but I doubt is from sarmatians or slavs.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well what if I2A dinaric appeared in Carpathians and Dinaric Alps,from a mutation from another I2 ?
    I mean Ken Nortvedt is saying that I2A dinaric is pretty young.
    I understood that some Y DNA tests found a large variety of I2A dinaric in these two places mentioned above.

    "Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."
    (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...-DNA%29#I2a1b1)

    I am not agreeing with the part written with italic,those are just supositions,but what is told above with the age of I2A dinaric I think it can be proved scientifically.

    Now if you wonder from where the I2 from which I2A dinaric appeared by some mutation is,no ideea,but I doubt is from sarmatians or slavs.
    as per your link, the tested northeast Italians are from trento which to this day is 52% german and 48% italian, it only became italian inside the last 100 yeras. Before this it was tyrolese, which was in ancient times Raeti and eugenai. With this knowledge 12a1b1 would have only occurred in trento area during the germanic migration from eastern germany.
    2800 years = 700-800 BC which can include the illyrians, raeti, etruscans but not celtic, venetic, norici or ligurians as archeology has them at certain times which do not fit the scenario.

    Still my theory should still hold true and I agree with you it was not a sarmatian migration.

    KN did state 9 months ago that one I haplotype ranges from the basques to venice, what would be fascinating is checking where these two I groups intermingled and also the germanic I1. A minestrone of I HG in central Austria

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well what if I2A dinaric appeared in Carpathians and Dinaric Alps,from a mutation from another I2 ?
    I mean Ken Nortvedt is saying that I2A dinaric is pretty young.
    I understood that some Y DNA tests found a large variety of I2A dinaric in these two places mentioned above.

    "Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula."
    (according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...-DNA%29#I2a1b1)

    I am not agreeing with the part written with italic,those are just supositions,but what is told above with the age of I2A dinaric I think it can be proved scientifically.

    Now if you wonder from where the I2 from which I2A dinaric appeared by some mutation is,no ideea,but I doubt is from sarmatians or slavs.
    I don't think that I2a1b is Slavic or Sarmatian.
    If it was slavic baltic people should have this haplogroup.
    Sarmatians were great warriors but they were'nt so many.For example in hungarian plains they ruled over a Dacian peasantry(Limigantes)
    Various Dacian tribes lived in southern Poland,Slovakia and parts of Ukraine.
    Aromuns are isolated Balkanic Romance speakers.Their language don't have Slavic borrowings(unlike Romanian).Even now they don't mix with others.But they have 20-40% I2a.
    Albanians also have I2a1b.And they are too an isolated group.
    In my opinion I2a1b is Paleo-Balkanic(Thracian/Dacian,Illyrian)
    It could come from Catacombe culture and those people were a mix of I2a and R1a.

    But i think they also kept R1b(from IE people),J2 and E (from indigenous) as well from Cernavoda-Bolleraz.
    In fact professor Alexander Rodewald(the one who made the Thracian Ancient DNA study- bones collected from Getic land) said that the Northern Italians are the closest to those Thracians.
    Unlike the Dacians who were mostly Dinarics/Alpines, the Getae were Mediterraneans/Atlantic Mediterraneans also.
    I'm not saying Balkanic people are entirely autochtonous,but Paleo-Balkanics had many haplogroups.

    http://www.hist-europe.fr/Prehistoir...-europeen.html

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    Diurpaneus

    an interesting case, which might help us all to understand who were the Slavs,

    Anna Komnene in her books names many times the South Slavic population as Scythians, time is about 1100 Ad 500 years after South Slavic invasion-devastation,
    if we understand that, then we can explain why in Romania have some Slavic influence, but not from the 500 AD but from earlier Scythia minor at 400 BC about. in fact maybe toponyms ending as -dava are from Scythian and not from Getae which was -ussa.
    in fact I believe that Slavs never existed in ancient times with that name, but with the name Scythians, and Slavs are the production of many years connection of Scythians with Finns- Baltics (Sarmates) and Sarmates have nothing in common with Huns-Tatars etc,

    The description Herodotus is giving for Sarmates is Baltic population which lived in wooden tents and breed reindeer, description which fits with Suomi-Lappi N1 HG,
    while Huno-Bulgars are mentioned as mounted warriors, leather tents and not reindeer breeders,

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    Strabo,Cassius Dio and many others says clearly that Getae and Dacians were Thracians not Scythians.
    The Romans and especially the Greeks could make the difference between Thracians and Scythians.
    There's no -ussa endig opposite to -dava.Cause you have only one place name Sarmizegetusa who could have -ussa ending.Many Dacian towns doesn't have -dava ending.
    The dava it's a special type of town because it's a tribal center.
    And Scythians don't have something like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    this refers only to the period after the fall of the roman empire, I am talking about the bronze age which is over 1000 years before the data of the map above
    How we can speak about "1000 years before" if the estimated TMRCA for Dinaric south is about 2000 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Diurpaneus

    an interesting case, which might help us all to understand who were the Slavs,

    Anna Komnene in her books names many times the South Slavic population as Scythians, time is about 1100 Ad 500 years after South Slavic invasion-devastation,
    Why Byzantine tzar Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos didn't talk about that? I dare to say that he had much better sources and better knowledge about the situation from that time.

    BTW your speech about "invasion-devastation" sounds quite in "nazi" manner because Greeks and other nations from that period of time did the same. Moreover, only a part of south Slavs together with Avars invaded that territory.

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    Byzantine historical nomenclature was based on ancient literature, esp. Herodotus. And it wasn't an innovation in the time of Anna Comnena. The 3rd century Greek-scripting historian Deuxippus constantly spoke of the Goths as "Scythians" because they were from the territory of ancient Scythia, even though they had nothing in common with these ancient Scythians. Anna (12th century) also referred to Pechenegs and Cumans as "Scythians"... In fact this Greek oddity was noticed by the Old Kyivan chroniclers. In the Tale of Bygone years (written ca. 1116) Monk Nestor (or his continuator Sylvester( after a lengthy geographical description of the territory and population of the Kyivan Rus state (Slavs, Norse, Balts, Finns et al.) concluded "all these are called 'Great Scythia' by the Greeks". Keep that in mind when speculating about the connection between Slavs and Scythians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    I don't think that I2a1b is Slavic or Sarmatian.
    If it was slavic baltic people should have this haplogroup.
    How do you figure? Why can't R1a be the common haplogroup among Balto-Slavs, and I2a1b1a be basically unique to the Slavs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Aromuns are isolated Balkanic Romance speakers.Their language don't have Slavic borrowings(unlike Romanian).Even now they don't mix with others.But they have 20-40% I2a.
    Do we know the subclade or STR diversity of I2a in Aromuns? I know with Greek I2a-Din, it's almost always I2a-Din-N, which I don't discount could have some pre-Slavic connections, as it's the older of the I2a-Din branches (although Slavic incursions into modern Greece did happen, and I consider them a very likely source). But as a whole, even I2a-Din-N is strongly tied to Slavic migrations, as we see with its distribution in places like Belarus and Russia.

    Of course, more I2a-Din in the Balkans is I2a-Din-S, which probably has too young an expansion on the Balkans (from the north no less) to be connected to much of anything other than the Slavs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    It could come from Catacombe culture and those people were a mix of I2a and R1a.
    I think a Catacombe Culture connection is within range, possibly, but one thing that discounts it is that it appears to have some sort of continuity with Corded Ware Culture. If we accept that, then it's curious how only R1a seems to have expanded with Corded Ware. So, I'm not ready to commit to such an old culture for such a young subclade.

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    Most aromuns have a higher or much higher percentage of J2 than usual romanians.
    http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-conten...n-analysis.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    That map is from a hobbyist at DNA Forums who took whatever proven I2a-Din-S he could find and attempted to fit its distribution to known Slavic migrations (he explicitly called them "Serb" migrations). IIRC, he relies heavily on the young Nordtvedt estimate of its age, and corresponds the origin to an area of peak diversity of I2a-Din-S observed by Verenich. After that, it's just a best-guess fit.

    I actually found it to be a quality analysis, on par with Verenich's, although it has a lot of assumptions built into it, and may give an incorrect picture of how precisely we know things about I2a-Din-S at the moment. At least, it shows the coherence of assuming I2a-Din-S to be a relatively young Western (rather than Southern) branch of I2a-Din.
    its realistic scenario....
    though i still stick to Serians story.....as it fits well with spread of I2a2-Din in both Asia and Europe especially around Danube....

    according to "De administrando imperio" Serbs come to Balkan from land Boiki where they have also originally dwellt and where they were called white
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false
    hence we can speak of white Serbs

    similarly in ancient Kurdish areas, in Cappadocia ancient authors e.g. Strabo speak of white Syrians


    according to Seneca, Serians live around Danube, in Serica (northwest China), rule over scathered Scythians and rule over Red sea....
    red sea is where Sherdana used to clash with ancient Egypt... a lake in Egypt was named after them - Serbonian bog...


    I would add here that Kurds (which is for me same tribal name as Serdi and Sherdana) are people with significant I2a2
    note that Kurdish tribes bare names such as Sorani and Garmiani... which may indicate the link to other haplogroup I people

    Kurds hold position that fits perfectly into story of expansion of sea peoples.... i did explain this in thread about sea people... order of conquest of sea peoples strongly suggest that conquest started from southwest Black sea coasts made cut to Mediteranian went through south of Asia minor where we later find Lukka / Lycians (Lycians same as Boii and Serbs and Dacians? share link to wolf, Kurt = wolf in turkish indicating that possible origin of word in turkish might come from Kurds self-identifying with wolf... Lycians had several times leader with names Sarpedon which may have just meant ruler of Sarpes)..than conquest went south through what is today called Syria to red sea shores... clearly key areas in such conquest must have been Kurdish lands as they are bridge from Black sea to Mediteranean sea..

    Strabo states that both tribes of Cappadocia are white Syrians, in fact he explains they are called white as being whiter than other Syrians..from rest of his talk its clear that for him Syrians = Sumerians as he talks about Semiramis, Ninus...
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

    question is the relation of Sumerians and white Sumerians..could white Sumerians be later addition to Sumerian stock from some northern populations... could it be related to expansion of sea peoples? or is this about Gutians who ruled over Sumer
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_period
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people


    further from Kurds haplogroup I spread in Asia fits perfectly spread of Sarbans tribe in Pakistan and Avganistan...

    Serians are also written in history as Seres

    Pomponius Mela in Asia puts Seres in between Indians and Scythians...which probably boils down to a line from northwest China via Pakistan/Avganistan to Kurds... he clearly states that, starting from east, Asia (or what was called Asia in his time) is inhabited by Indians, Seres and Scythians..no doubt that Seres cannot be Chinese as they never lived west of Indians...west of Indians are areas of Avganistan, Pakistan, Kurdistan...

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=6Apl...=seres&f=false

    Serica is northwest China but also arc from China to India...northwest China is where silk was produced....this arc was trade route towards south seas....
    both northwest China and arc are clearly seen in spread of haplogroup I in Asia.. (see map bellow...map is now somewhat outdated and needs less of hotspot in north iran and more in kurdish areas) big part of arc is made by Sarbans...(spread of Sarbans is depicted with green areas on the map of Avganistan and Pakistan bellow...compare it with the haplogroup I spread on map above it..its perfect match for arc...)

    on Ptolemy map, Serica it is north of Tibet
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PtomelyAsiaDetail.jpg

    in north west China - area north of Tibet, there is a tribe with somewhat european look..they speak mongolian today and are called Sarta
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

    Sart in mongolian = moon, crescent
    Serb coat of arms essentially has 4 "C" signs - crescents

    Sarta of northwest China are related to white Sarts - name for people who origin from ancient arabic? trade people in areas such as Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

    in fact Sart settled areas are again places with hotspot of haplogroup I
    and there is clear sign of continuity with Serica - silk production from ancient times till today...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan

    I.jpg
    https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/






    in europe I see people like Scirii/Scirrians and Scordisci/Serdi being genetically part of those Serians

    those perhaps celto-germanic or east germanic people eventually merged with R1a Scytho-Sarmatians to give Slavs (Sclaveni) of today....

    I2a2-Din-South has came to existence more recently among European branch of Serians.... my guess is Scirri and Scordisci did spread it originally... as Baltiic spread of I2a2-Din-South matches supposed locations of Sciri....

    Serbs of today may origin from Scirii or Scordisci who merged with Sarmatians/Scythians to give Slavic people...

    russian primary chronicle states that Serbs (and other south Slavs) origin from Danubian Slavs who lived in north Serbia around Danube (Hungary and Bulgaria at the time of writing) and went from there to Lyaks (Lechs or Poles) in times when they were pushed out from Danube basin by spreading Roman empire....this description maps Serbs mention in Russian primary chronicle to the position of Scordisci
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    as per your link, the tested northeast Italians are from trento which to this day is 52% german and 48% italian, it only became italian inside the last 100 yeras. Before this it was tyrolese, which was in ancient times Raeti and eugenai. With this knowledge 12a1b1 would have only occurred in trento area during the germanic migration from eastern germany.
    2800 years = 700-800 BC which can include the illyrians, raeti, etruscans but not celtic, venetic, norici or ligurians as archeology has them at certain times which do not fit the scenario.
    yes, but there were germanic people also entering other areas of italy not just Trento...

    what about Boii?
    i2a-din has high diversity in Czech republic...

    Ser = head in iranic languages, honourable title in germanic languages
    Ser Boii = main tribe of Boii

    same as there are Scythians and royal Scythians

    in that case
    from Serboii could have come corruptions like Serdi / Scordisci / Sherdana
    and we do know that Scordisci are related or same as Boii...
    and that the lake named after Sherdana is called "Serbonian bog"


    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    I don't think that I2a1b is Slavic or Sarmatian.
    If it was slavic baltic people should have this haplogroup.
    Sarmatians were great warriors but they were'nt so many.For example in hungarian plains they ruled over a Dacian peasantry(Limigantes)
    Various Dacian tribes lived in southern Poland,Slovakia and parts of Ukraine.
    Aromuns are isolated Balkanic Romance speakers.Their language don't have Slavic borrowings(unlike Romanian).Even now they don't mix with others.But they have 20-40% I2a.
    Serians rulled over scattered Scythians....
    Scythians and Sarmatians are of same origin - Greek legends relate Sarmatians to origin from group of Scythians that lived with Amazones... in my opinion both Scythians and Sarmatians were dominantly R1a people


    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Albanians also have I2a1b.And they are too an isolated group.
    Albanians in north Albania and on Kosovo and in Macedonia are isolated group they have almost no I2a2-Din...
    http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

    Albanians from Albania were ruled by Bulgarians for long time...and area was also heavily settled by Slavic people...in fact lot of toponyms in south Albania are Slavic in origin




    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Strabo,Cassius Dio and many others says clearly that Getae and Dacians were Thracians not Scythians.
    The Romans and especially the Greeks could make the difference between Thracians and Scythians.
    There's no -ussa endig opposite to -dava.Cause you have only one place name Sarmizegetusa who could have -ussa ending.Many Dacian towns doesn't have -dava ending.
    The dava it's a special type of town because it's a tribal center.
    And Scythians don't have something like it.

    in south slavic languages

    fortress = tvrdjava , tvrdina
    hard, strong = tvrd

    hence fortress = hard/strong + dava (Dacian) or hard/strong + din (Celtic)

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    How do you figure? Why can't R1a be the common haplogroup among Balto-Slavs, and I2a1b1a be basically unique to the Slavs?
    yes...
    Slavs in my opinion only came to existance after merging I2a2-Din with Scythian / Sarmatian / Balto-Slavic R1a

    Do we know the subclade or STR diversity of I2a in Aromuns? I know with Greek I2a-Din, it's almost always I2a-Din-N, which I don't discount could have some pre-Slavic connections, as it's the older of the I2a-Din branches (although Slavic incursions into modern Greece did happen, and I consider them a very likely source). But as a whole, even I2a-Din-N is strongly tied to Slavic migrations, as we see with its distribution in places like Belarus and Russia.
    Serians ruled over scattered Scythians...
    some translations of Seneca state Dacians instead of Scythians...

    Of course, more I2a-Din in the Balkans is I2a-Din-S, which probably has too young an expansion on the Balkans (from the north no less) to be connected to much of anything other than the Slavs.
    i think its more or less clear that I2a2-din south spread with south Slavs...

  22. #197
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Why Byzantine tzar Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos didn't talk about that? I dare to say that he had much better sources and better knowledge about the situation from that time.

    BTW your speech about "invasion-devastation" sounds quite in "nazi" manner because Greeks and other nations from that period of time did the same. Moreover, only a part of south Slavs together with Avars invaded that territory.
    You are right, but how can I describe it?
    I do agree that Greeks did same as many others,
    if you give me a correct description in words I will change it.

  23. #198
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Byzantine historical nomenclature was based on ancient literature, esp. Herodotus. And it wasn't an innovation in the time of Anna Comnena. The 3rd century Greek-scripting historian Deuxippus constantly spoke of the Goths as "Scythians" because they were from the territory of ancient Scythia, even though they had nothing in common with these ancient Scythians. Anna (12th century) also referred to Pechenegs and Cumans as "Scythians"... In fact this Greek oddity was noticed by the Old Kyivan chroniclers. In the Tale of Bygone years (written ca. 1116) Monk Nestor (or his continuator Sylvester( after a lengthy geographical description of the territory and population of the Kyivan Rus state (Slavs, Norse, Balts, Finns et al.) concluded "all these are called 'Great Scythia' by the Greeks". Keep that in mind when speculating about the connection between Slavs and Scythians.
    That is the difference, that Scythians are connected with Both Goths, which for me are The Getae and with Slavic population,
    while the term Sauromates is abandoned as also the term Getae? so what had happened?
    they can not be vanished in thin air? then what,
    it seems like Deuxipus as you said names Goths as Scythians Due to minor Scythia
    and Anna komnene due to Major Scythia,

    Historically we have a time that the land of Getae are under scythians, the minor Scythia,
    while major Scythia is more East, beside the Sauromates,
    so what had happened?
    for me it seems like in Greater Scythia Scythian assimilated sauromates and create Slavic population, much before the arrival of Ros and Huno-Bulgars Tatars etc
    while in minor Scythia they were mixed with Getae, before moved west as ostrogoths and Visigoths,

    my personal opinion about that gets stronger everyday, if Sparky is correct about the I2a2 Din there it might be correct since we consider Thracian as R1a and R1b

    Now about Ros and Rus Ρως are described as Northern non Slavic population, probably Scandinavian, since the Lion in Piraus, the one is 'taken' by Venicians has Scandinavic runic scripts, meaning that Ρως are same with Varangian guard according Byzantine, while people of Kiev are speaking Slavic, that is why they adopted the Cyrillic,

    I have said many times
    Ρως means North, Ρουσσο means red
    Scythians used to paint their clothes RED




    Scythia minor as you see is in the land of Getae




    while look at the bellow as Scythia
    and exactly the area A
    I wonder, is not the area of I population? that sparky Describes? or maybe I am worng?






    It seems like Scythian and their names like Skiller Atto etc are connected with both Germanic and Slavic language and History, we know that Germanic and Slavic are connected in proto-forms,
    I wonder either Germanic is a Thracian+scythian +west Europe language
    and Slavic as Scythian+sarmatian+Baltic language,
    a good point to that is except Tocharian all Satem languages are in areas near Turkic
    populations while all Centum (except tocharian) in areas away from Turkic populations

  24. #199
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    How do you figure? Why can't R1a be the common haplogroup among Balto-Slavs, and I2a1b1a be basically unique to the Slavs?

    Because the term Slavic only appeared at its earliest time between 200 and 400AD according to slavic historians.

    2 - I2a1b1a according to Ftdna in NOV 2011 found 40% of their tested people with this marker in Iberia. and it comprised of L160

    3 - KN stated in DEC 2011 that there are 11 types of I HG and this slavic ones which came from the Antes and sklavians happened after the Roman empire existed. It does not make sense that he lost over 1000 years

    Define what a Slav is?................if you read most web sites it designates a group similar to naming a Latin, british, iberian, scandinavian or celtic .........that is many tribes who had different HG and spoke the same tongue

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    Zanipolo
    you didn't answer my question about I2a1b1 )))

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