How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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Just thought I would throw this out there…

With recent results suggesting that Neolithic Britons were at least predominantly I2a, I read this modern distribution in an entirely different way. For me, the modern distribution of I2a appears very highly correlated to mining and and trading of tin, c3300-2000BCE. As such, distribution may be best explained by the introduction of I2a along tin trading routes from NW Europe to the Black sea (Rhine -> Danube), the Adriatic (Rhine then across the Alps to the Po) and central Italy (Rhine -> Mediterarian coast -> Tiber -> Foggia -> Greece).

In this scenario, I2a – DIN may have been initially occurred and then been passed to local populations in the Balkans by early tin traders from Germany or Britain at trading posts on the Danube. The date of 3100BC works very nicely for this.

Although the original source of the tin for the European Bronze age is generally framed as a debate between Erzgebirge vs. Conrwall, it is also worth noting that other ‘hot spots’ in the modern I2a2 distribution (e.g. Skelleftia in Sweden and Argur-Dessus in the Pyranees) are today both areas with operational tin mines.
 
Knez Dervan of White Serbia and Haplgroup I2a1

Today I was looking at a map of the distribution of haplgroup I2a1 in Europe when I made an interesting discovery. According to Serbian legend and the Byzantine Chronicles, the Serbs left an area known as "White Serbia" under the leadership of the Unknown Archon to migrate into the Balkans. This archon was said to be the son of Knez Dervan who ruled over an area of East Germany in the area which is today inhabited by Sorbs. If we examine a map of Dervan's realm and compare it to I2a1 frequency, we can clearly an elevated concentration of I2a1 in the area of his former realm:

Dervan.png

Haplogroup_I2a.gif
 
Today I was looking at a map of the distribution of haplgroup I2a1 in Europe when I made an interesting discovery. According to Serbian legend and the Byzantine Chronicles, the Serbs left an area known as "White Serbia" under the leadership of the Unknown Archon to migrate into the Balkans. This archon was said to be the son of Knez Dervan who ruled over an area of East Germany in the area which is today inhabited by Sorbs. If we examine a map of Dervan's realm and compare it to I2a1 frequency, we can clearly an elevated concentration of I2a1 in the area of his former realm:

Dervan.png

Haplogroup_I2a.gif

This is very interesting
 
I believe that two previously mentioned Hungarian samples deserve some attention. As far as I know there are only 3 published I2a-M423 samples form early middle ages of which two belong to Hungarian conquerors.

There was an interesting conversation about the subject occured on another thread:

gyms:

Very interesting.According to the results on the Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor Nevgen the two I2a are I2a1b3a.But they are not relatives.Simple no.12 is Din South,simple no.17 is Din North. "

Kristiina:

Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.

A 10th century Byzantine source "De Administrando Imperio", in chapter 30, confirms what Kristiina said:

But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia (...)

The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are called Belocroats, that is, white Croats, and have their own prince; they are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia, or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks (Magyars).

The area where the ancient Hungarians were found is where some historians locate white Croatia.
 
Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian Invasions".
From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South:
Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc.

The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous.
Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.
 
Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian Invasions".
From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South:
Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc.

The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous.
Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.

One of the things modern genetics has taught us is that we should take the opinions of historians, especially ancient historians, with a large grain of salt. In the first case, they had no way of knowing the genetic effect of various wars and migrations, basing everything on speculation, and in the latter case, the "historians", even when they knew anything other than what was transpiring in their own immediate area, may have had agendas of one kind or another. One common example is the obviously inflated numbers of various armies or the number of slaves, etc.

Just take the example of the Mycenaeans. Up until the day the recent Lazaridis et al paper came out people were pontificating everywhere how "steppe" like they would be, given that this has always been the exemplar of the Bronze Age "Indo-European" culture, and speculations about the "huge" waves of steppe people who would have been pouring in. Turns out the "steppe" portion was 4-16% or 13-18% depending on the method used, so perhaps somewhere around 15%.

As to I2a-"Din" and subclades, wouldn't FTDNA have maps?

There's also this general one on I2a2 (old I2b). Does more recent data change the picture substantially?
76774684.jpg
 
I am not really sure if this is the right place to post it:
As of the beginning of the 6th century there was in fact no significant Slavic presence anywhere in the territory of modern Russia except the province of Bryansk while the Slavic core embraced contemporary western and northern Ukraine, southern Belarus and south-eastern Poland. The territory north of the Slavs was dominated by various Baltic tribes who occupied significant area that included all of the contemporary Lithuania, most of Belarus, southern half of Latvia, all of the modern province of Smolensk and partially the provinces of Moscow (western half) and Pskov (southern districts) as well as the historical East Prussia now shared by Poland and Russian enclave of Kaliningrad. All the rest of today’s central and northern Russia was the realm of Finnic and Finno-Ugric tribes.
Brzezinski, Richard; Mielczarek, Mariusz (2002). The Sarmatians, 600 BC-AD 450. Osprey Publishing. p. 39. [...] Indeed, it is now accepted that the Sarmatians merged in with pre-Slavic populations.
Adams, Douglas Q. (1997). Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. Taylor & Francis. p. 523. [...] In their Ukrainian and Polish homeland the Slavs were intermixed and at times overlain by Germanic speakers (the Goths) and by Iranian speakers (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans) in a shifting array of tribal and national configurations.
Atkinson, Dorothy; Dallin, Alexander; Warshofsky Lapidus, Gail, eds. (1977). Women in Russia. Stanford University Press. p. 3. [...] Ancient accounts link the Amazons with the Scythians and the Sarmatians, who successively dominated the south of Russia for a millennium extending back to the seventh century B.C. The descendants of these peoples were absorbed by the Slavs who came to be known as Russians.
Slovene Studies. 9–11. Society for Slovene Studies. 1987. p. 36. [...] For example, the ancient Scythians, Sarmatians (amongst others), and many other attested but now extinct peoples were assimilated in the course of history by Proto-Slavs.
"Between the sixth and seventh centuries, large parts of Europe came to be controlled by Slavs, a process less understood and documented than that of the Germanic ethnogenesis in the west. Yet the effects of Slavicization were far more profound". Geary (2003, p. 144)
 
One of the things modern genetics has taught us is that we should take the opinions of historians, especially ancient historians, with a large grain of salt. In the first case, they had no way of knowing the genetic effect of various wars and migrations, basing everything on speculation
See the difference between upper Balkans and Anatolia:

View attachment 9088
 
^^None of your attachments open up, so it's impossible to respond.
 
Before the Slavic migration (570 AD-7th century) there have been 3 centuries of other "Barbarian Invasions". From 250 AD on ,several waves of different people migrated West and South: Goths (Visigoths,Ostrogoths, Vandals),Avars,Huns,Eruli,Kutriguri,Alamans etc etc etc. The effects of invasions,destructions of cities and towns,killings and slavery were tremendous. Northern Balkans are described by Byzantine chronographers as a deserted land.

Really Huns made destruction in the Balkans, historical sources confirm it.

For many others we should vague because they brought new things, inventions, progress, they mixed with locals and their whole contribution can be positive. Celts are one good example for it from 4th BCE. In period which you mention for example Goths contributed culture and history, it could be incorrect to call them destructors.

Also many tribes and people were subject of "ethnic engineering" where imperial rulers settled (or deported) whole or big part of population. Bastarnae for example are that case and when they arrived to the Balkans more times they mixed with local Thracians/Dacians during long period and became part of local population, therefore they were constructive (not destructive) element.
 
I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

Sparkley, how do you explain:
1.) The contrast of northern Slavs and Southern Slavs: the high frequencies of R1a in northern Slavs and low frequencies in southern ones. Considering they originated from mostly similar regions.
2.) The idea of some pagan tribes which knew little in antiquity overruning nearly the whole Eastern Europe. Do you have any demographic evidence? The only thing that comes to my mind is the plague of Justian which killed off the bulk of population in Eastern Mediterranean.
 
How many times you will say it.

You saw what scientists write, experts of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science.

Some forum cannot help against science, and Eupedia fosters science, and science enable progress.

Are you joking with me.?
experts of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science.
They are not stronger than genetics, I believe only genetics and historical records that this genetics confirms, everything else is a crystal ball or grandma Vanga fairytale.
 
Are you joking with me.?

No.

Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science should be respected.

Dr Francesco Borri is stronger than genetics, hahahaha he did not write DAI and his comment is as good as your comment

You can write what you want but laughing to scientists is wrong approach.

Every amateur who underestimates scientists and experts should think about words of Bertrand Russell:

"What science cannot discover, mankind cannot know. "
 

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