How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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''In Table S5, we list the source populations that provided the strongest evidence of admixture (exponential amplitude and decay more than four standard errors higher than zero). A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.''
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328

No one knows for sure if that clade is Slavic but if it is not, then the fact that it is in Ashkanazi Jews is probably a coincidence. Sorry I don't believe in mass conversion hypothesis of old Greeks into Judaism that Anthrogenica members are promoting.
I saw the quote and the actual Table S5, and probably a lot of that frequency has to do with CEU (western Europe) "if medieval", rather than actual Slavic populations which you mentioned in your prior comment. It doesn't specify. But if you go at Table S5 you see that CEU (western Europe) shows the highest frequency between the aforementioned populations, namely at 28.1%. Also, the paper seems to suggest that some of that could also be due to ancient migrations on the island, such as Mycenaean and Dorian Greeks. For example, "These results might reflect past settlements to Crete from Europe. Indeed, Crete was invaded from the North by the Myceneans and the Dorians in prehistoric or early historic times. These were Greek tribes which, together with the Minoans and other prehistoric inhabitants of the island, shaped the genetic structure of the Cretan population.".

I am not going to expand on a possible mass Greco-Roman conversion to Judaism. But aside of that, the aforementioned haplogroup accounts for very little of the Ashkenazim Jewish paternal haplogroups. As aforementioned, I Y-DNA in general with all its subclades accounts for 4% of their lines. Who knows, maybe I-Y18331 accounts for only 0.50% (if not less) for all we know. Therefore even if you negate the possibility of a mass Greco-Roman conversion you still cannot exclude the assimilation of such small numbers. Other than that, Ashkenazim Jews are autosomally a Mediterranean population, so most of them obviously came from the South.
 
I saw the quote and the actual Table S5, and probably a lot of that frequency has to do with CEU (western Europe) "if medieval", rather than actual Slavic populations which you mentioned in your prior comment. It doesn't specify. But if you go at Table S5 you see that CEU (western Europe) shows the highest frequency between the aforementioned populations, namely at 28.1%. Also, the paper seems to suggest that some of that could also be due to ancient migrations on the island, such as Mycenaean and Dorian Greeks. For example, "These results might reflect past settlements to Crete from Europe. Indeed, Crete was invaded from the North by the Myceneans and the Dorians in prehistoric or early historic times. These were Greek tribes which, together with the Minoans and other prehistoric inhabitants of the island, shaped the genetic structure of the Cretan population.".

I am not going to expand on a possible mass Greco-Roman conversion to Judaism. But aside of that, the aforementioned haplogroup accounts for very little of the Ashkenazim Jewish paternal haplogroups. As aforementioned, I Y-DNA in general with all its subclades accounts for 4% of their lines. Who knows, maybe I-Y18331 accounts for only 0.50% (if not less) for all we know. Therefore even if you negate the possibility of a mass Greco-Roman conversion you still cannot exclude the assimilation of such small numbers. Other than that, Ashkenazim Jews are autosomally a Mediterranean population, so most of them obviously came from the South.

The paper at very least suggest an 17% contribution by northern Slavs which is still high. IMO the Slavic contribution in Crete is 5%.
For Peloponnese, IMO, it is around 20%-25% assuming they were a little mixed before they arrived.
 
The paper at very least suggest an 17% contribution by northern Slavs which is still high. IMO the Slavic contribution in Crete is 5%.
For Peloponnese, IMO, it is around 20%-25% assuming they were a little mixed before they arrived.
Concerning the aforementioned paper, it doesn't specify the exact medieval Slavic contribution. For example, it also says 16.2% Orcadian, 34.6% French, 53.4% Tuscan, among others. Those frequencies don't make any sense, even if we account for the standard errors mentioned. And take note that the Tuscan frequency is supposedly dated to 98-1860 CE.

The frequencies you suggest seem reasonable to me, but for a proximal source, not ultimate. I believe an ideal sample to trace the ultimate source would be the medieval Slav from Sungir. By the way, he happens to belong in a clade under I-S17250, and is dated to 730-850 ybp. Here is also an autosomal map based on his Global 25, https://i.ibb.co/0QT4DQt/T0-If4-L4-Medieval-Slav.png. Are there any other medieval Slavs available?
 
Concerning the aforementioned paper, it doesn't specify the exact medieval Slavic contribution. For example, it also says 16.2% Orcadian, 34.6% French, 53.4% Tuscan, among others.
Yes but it is the same for the Peloponnesians, the other study shows about 50% genetic affinity with the Spanish, but it does not mean half of Peloponnesians are Spanish. Those percentages represent the genetic affinity, not exactly actual ancestry, so 3-8% affinity with Poles can be translated that there never was a Slavic invasion, that's why it is so low.
I believe the Germanic contribution of Goths was about 5% in Sicily autosomally, a little bigger by Y-DNA (they carry +5% pure Germanic lineages plus Goths carried some non Germanic linages such as E-V13). You can count Germanic placenames in Tuscany and Sicily in your fingers, in that figurative sense of course. On the other hand hunderds of Slavic toponyms did pop out of nowhere in Peloponnese.
 
Yes but it is the same for the Peloponnesians, the other study shows about 50% genetic affinity with the Spanish, but it does not mean half of Peloponnesians are Spanish. Those percentages represent the genetic affinity, not exactly actual ancestry, so 3-8% affinity with Poles can be translated that there never was a Slavic invasion, that's why it is so low.
I believe the Germanic contribution of Goths was about 5% in Sicily autosomally, a little bigger by Y-DNA (they carry +5% pure Germanic lineages plus Goths carried some non Germanic linages such as E-V13). You can count Germanic placenames in Tuscany and Sicily in your fingers, in that figurative sense of course. On the other hand hunderds of Slavic toponyms did pop out of nowhere in Peloponnese.

One Goth sample from Eastern Germany had E-V13, so it looks like they already had it in their ranks.
 
There is a very interesting book that talks about genetics, it is in Serbian language written by author Jovan Marjanovic. Haplogroup I is indigenous to Europe, I2a-Din know widespread thanks to Dacian expansion outside the Balkans
 
Take note that 0.2% is only observed at south Tsakonia, which is part of its lower average, namely 0.2%-0.9%. The actual average among individuals outside Mani and Tsakonia is 4.4%-14.4%, again for ultimate Slavic admixture, not intermixed cases. The sample size of the paper which includes these numbers is 241, therefore not small. By the way, i am not provoked. Autosomal DNA aside, i believe we should pay closer attention to the small frequency of I-Y18331 in Greece by its own.

Can you cite the other paper, i would like to go over it.

The Ashkenazim Jewish clade, namely I-Y23115, doesn't have any Slavic samples from the best of my knowledge, and even if it did have one i am unfamiliar with, that doesn't suggest that there was a Slavic proxy, rather the opposite (Jewish proxy). Also, the TMRCA of I-Y23115 is 900 CE. Last, frequency of I clades in Ashkenazim Jews is 4%, while they also have 10% R1a, and possibly other clades that could be of Slavic origin, which would explain their Slavic admixture. I am using Eupedia as reference,
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml.

The Ashkenazi Jews are all downstream of Y23115, in sub-clades. There is no Y23115* sample yet. That clade split with the south Balkan clade Y66192 an estimated 2,100 years ago. If true that’s long before Slavs moved into the south Balkans. Somewhere descendants of the parent clade A10959 lived together, a very long time ago, if the MRCA estimate is reasonably accurate.

There might be a non-Jewish sample from east Europe in Y23115, per the FTDNA I2a blog (not confirmed yet). He matches with Jews at 25 and 37 markers and has a tiny amount of Ashkenazi Jewish in his autosomal profile. There are many Jewish surnames in the FTDNA I2a chart (confirmed or suspected Y23115 sub-branches), from different east European countries, implying that this branch had a lot of time to migrate to various places. Could it be possible that so many people converted to Judaism in different areas, who were originally Slavic or Baltic, with so very few if any non-Jewish modern samples from these places? Perhaps, but it seems very unusual.
 
There is a very interesting book that talks about genetics, it is in Serbian language written by author Jovan Marjanovic. Haplogroup I is indigenous to Europe, I2a-Din know widespread thanks to Dacian expansion outside the Balkans

What is the most ancient i2a-din we have in balkans? I believe J2b l283 and r1b Z2103 have already been found from around 2000 BC
 
I don't believe it was Sea People as they were perhaps some J2 variant!
 
I am also related to Imperial Romans! My haplogroup was V-19 very interesting. I would like to know more about them
 
There is a very interesting book that talks about genetics, it is in Serbian language written by author Jovan Marjanovic. Haplogroup I is indigenous to Europe, I2a-Din know widespread thanks to Dacian expansion outside the Balkans

Is it older than J variants?
 
The ancestor of haplogroup I2 would have appeared around 22,000 years old. The I2a1 with the P37.2 marker would be 21,000 years old according to Kenneth Nordtvedt, if you want I will do a topic on the origin of the I2a1 dinaric haplogroup,
 
For the origin of the Slavs if we base ourselves on the ancient medieval Bohemian, Polish, Czech, Russian and German texts the original home of the Slavs would be Pannonia, and the ancient texts of antiquity that the Serbs would have lived in Moesia, according to Pius II the Serbs are the descendants of the Moesians
 
What is the most ancient i2a-din we have in balkans? I believe J2b l283 and r1b Z2103 have already been found from around 2000 BC
The haplogroup I2a1 was found in the archaeological excavations of Lepinski vir on bones, the I2a-Din is a descendant of the I2a1
 
I have to look at the book, I don't remember but the I and J are parents

Yes they descend from one another origin of Cro Magnon people


11221759_1483422381977597_6413641935768712088_n.jpg
 
Thanks for the clarifications. I know of the Torbesh, bus was unaware of the tendecy towards Turkic identification that you wrote of. Something similar is observed with a minority of the Muslim Pomaks (bulgarophones) and Roma (Gypsies) in Thrace, but most are against that stance. Other than that we also have a Turkish-speaking presence as well there, along the Pomaks and Roma.

Pomaks are not pure Bulgarian they have minor Turkic ancestry as do many Turks
 
For the origin of the Slavs if we base ourselves on the ancient medieval Bohemian, Polish, Czech, Russian and German texts the original home of the Slavs would be Pannonia, and the ancient texts of antiquity that the Serbs would have lived in Moesia, according to Pius II the Serbs are the descendants of the Moesians

I ask because my result is all over the place. Firstly, my main haplogroup comes from Serbia. But my maternal says autosomally I am Near Eastern/Caucasian from my mother's side.


My Vahadou ( I didn't even bother with Ged match as the admixtures are confusing ) said I was mainly related to Imperial Romans but one ancestor came from Neolithic Near East ( I don't have money for G25 but when I do I may get it and a deep dive map )

Did Caucasian people pre date Slavs in the Balkans?

Are Caucasian people older than Slavs?

Some information I know about my family.

My mum's dad's family comes from South Eastern Europe my great grandfather looks Slavic Balkan

my mum's mum's family comes from the North Caucasus but I don't know who they were as a people

My maternal haplogroup comes from Mesolithic Serbia.

Are these carriers older than I2 Dinaric people? Could they possibly be more E or J? In a male line version?

67628483_2325116034474890_7978525570549940224_n.jpg




My autosomal was this

Target: Angeleyes2_Mom
Distance: 1.1993% / 1.19925081 | ADC: 0.25x
34.2 R68_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
26.8 R76_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
14.0 Sidon_BA_ERS1790729_
13.0 R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
5.4 R1543_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
3.6 R42_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
1.6 Khoesan_Hunter_South_Africa_2100BP.SG_2103_ybp
1.4 I3726_Tanzania_Luxmanda_3100BP_3079_ybp

Sidon_BA is Neolithic before the Hebrew presence in the Levant but i'd like to know more.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-statistic-f4Levant-N-Sidon-BA_fig1_318741481

 
I saw the quote and the actual Table S5, and probably a lot of that frequency has to do with CEU (western Europe) "if medieval", rather than actual Slavic populations which you mentioned in your prior comment. It doesn't specify. But if you go at Table S5 you see that CEU (western Europe) shows the highest frequency between the aforementioned populations, namely at 28.1%. Also, the paper seems to suggest that some of that could also be due to ancient migrations on the island, such as Mycenaean and Dorian Greeks. For example, "These results might reflect past settlements to Crete from Europe. Indeed, Crete was invaded from the North by the Myceneans and the Dorians in prehistoric or early historic times. These were Greek tribes which, together with the Minoans and other prehistoric inhabitants of the island, shaped the genetic structure of the Cretan population.".

I am not going to expand on a possible mass Greco-Roman conversion to Judaism. But aside of that, the aforementioned haplogroup accounts for very little of the Ashkenazim Jewish paternal haplogroups. As aforementioned, I Y-DNA in general with all its subclades accounts for 4% of their lines. Who knows, maybe I-Y18331 accounts for only 0.50% (if not less) for all we know. Therefore even if you negate the possibility of a mass Greco-Roman conversion you still cannot exclude the assimilation of such small numbers. Other than that, Ashkenazim Jews are autosomally a Mediterranean population, so most of them obviously came from the South.

https://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769

They are related to Palestinians and Sephardic Jews more than anyone else at least through their Y chromosone.
 
https://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769

They are related to Palestinians and Sephardic Jews more than anyone else at least through their Y chromosone.
I don't know about their Y-DNA in depth, but a paper i read a couple of years ago found out that most of Ashekanzim Jewish mtDNA lines are European. Namely from "A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages" (2013), "Given the strength of the case for even these founders having a European source, however, our best estimate is to assign ~81% of Ashkenazi lineages to a European source, ~8% to the Near East and ~1% further to the east in Asia, with ~10% remaining ambiguous (Fig. 10; Supplementary Table S9).".

Concerning the Pomaks that you aforementioned, can you specify what do you mean by minor Turkic ancestry? Because minor is a relative term.
 

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