How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[sparkey]

So there are several threads, all recently active, where the focus of the conversation has turned to (often passionate) discussions about how I2a1b1a-Din, the most common Haplogroup I subclade in the Balkans, got to the Balkans. But we seem far from reaching consensus on this forum, so here's a poll to at least put our finger to the wind regarding the direction this forum is leaning.

I've included as options several different possibilities I've read:

Paleolithic continuity: I2a-Din has been in the Balkans since the Paleolithic, and present distribution outside of the Balkans is the result of migrations out of it. There is direct geographic continuity for this clade from Gravettian culture and/or the Balkans Ice Age refuge. Proponents point out the age of Haplogroup I and the frequency distribution of I2a-Din. I've read Maciamo articulate this view, but I'm not sure if he still holds it.

The Early Indo-Europeans: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Indo-European migrations. It was part of the "original" collection of Y-DNA of Indo-Europeans. Proponents point out that everywhere that Haplogroup I is dominant nowadays speaks an IE language. How yes no was fond of this theory for a while.

Sea Peoples: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by seafaring groups not otherwise mentioned in this poll. The migration happened before history or early in history. Proponents point to the frequency distribution and the lack of historical verification for later migrations. How yes no explored this idea, and recently Pyrub has advocated it.

The Sarmatians: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Sarmatians. Proponents of this view cite the STR dating estimate for the clade, the apparent Asian spillover of it, and the historical attestation to Sarmatians (but not Slavs) in the Balkans. Bodin has been the most vocal advocate of this theory here.

The Slavs: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by expanding Slavs in the 1st millennium CE. Proponents cite the age of the clade, expert STR diversity analysis by people like Nordtvedt and Verenich, and dispute that history doesn't verify the Slavic expansions. I have supported this view, as have a few other posters.

If you believe that multiple expansions resulted in the current I2a-Din distribution in the Balkans, indicate which you feel brought most or had the greatest impact. If you feel that the data is deficient, make your best educated guess.

[Maciamo]

This is a very tough question. So far I would opt for the Paleolithic continuity, although it doesn't really make sense based on the age estimate of this haplogroup (too young).

The Indo-Europeans hypothesis has the problem that the Balkans have far more I2a than R1a and R1b, unlike other IE regions. Ditto for the Slavs. Then, if it was Slavic, where would the previous population (from the Palaeolithic to the Roman era) have gone ? The Aromuns, presumably descended from the Roman-era population of the Balkans, have over 20% of I2a, more than the Slavic-speaking Macedonian neighbours.

[ihype02]

The Aromuns, presumably descended from the Roman-era population of the Balkans, have over 20% of I2a, more than the Slavic-speaking Macedonian neighbours.

Macedonians have roughly 30% I2a-"din". As for Aromanians, they are extremely diverse and have absorbed lot of migrants. For example R1A in Aromanians scores 21% (Štip RoM)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arom...enetic_studies

[Dale Cooper]

I gave my vote to Paleolithic continuity, as also many other people along with official croatian genetical research... Article from Croatian genetical institute:

The data demonstrate that Croatian human population, as almost
any other European population, represents remarkable
genetic mixture. More than 3/4 of the contemporary
Croatian men are most probably the offspring of Old Europeans
who came here before and after the Last Glacial
Maximum. The rest of the population is the offspring of the
people who were arriving in this part of Europe through
the southeastern route in the last 10 000 years, mostly during
the neolithization process. We believe that the latest
discoveries made with the techniques for whole-genome
typing using the array technology, will help us understand
the structure of Croatian population in more detail, as well
as the aspects of its demographic history.



It could be concluded that Ychromosome
background may cluster all European men
within two main branches: ‘Old Europeans’ with the parental
lineages Hg I, possibly Hg G and Hg N who had already
been present in Europe before the LGM and who survived
this period in 4 European refugia, and ‘Early Farmers’ (Hg
E3b, Hg J2, some subclades of Hg G) who had still been on
‘summer vacation’ in Asia and Africa during the LGM and
arrived during the neolithization of Europe.
However, while the Wiik study does a reasonably good job
summarizing the earlier literature about Europe, it has recently
become clearer that the previously established model
(4) stating that Hg R dates from the Paleolithic should be
revised. The latest studies in this field (20,21) suggest that
Hg R membership, be it R1a-M17 or R1b-M269, in Europe is
a more recent (post-LGM) event (about ≤15 000 years ago).
According to those recent findings, it is possible that these
Hg R lineages began to spread from Western Asia into Europe
soon after the ice sheets began to retract but before
the arrival of farming in southeast Europe and Crete about
9000 years ago. So, this model suggests that 15 000 -10 000
years ago, Europe was inhabited by Mesolithic people,
some being indigenous Hg I and some being post-glacial
intrusive Hg R from West-Asia. Then, pioneering agriculturalists
came from the Fertile Crescent and acquainted the
local foragers with farming.



Interpretation of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Y-chromosome tree by Marjanović et al (28), according to which the territories of today’s Croatia and Bosnia
and Herzegovina were probably part of the Balkan Last Glacial Maximum refugium



Croatian Y-chromosome population structure according to data published by Semino et al (4) Approximately 45% of the examined Croatians probably
originated from the Old Europeans who mostly survived the Last Glacial Maximum (LG M) in the Western Balkan refugium. In addition, almost 30% of
them came from the Ukrainian LG M refugium and 10% from postglacial intrusion from Western Asia (20,21), previously described by Semino as Old Europeans
from Iberian refugium (4). The rest of the Croatian men (approximately 15%) originated from Early Farmers who brought agriculture into Europe

Regarding the Old Europeans, additional analysis of more
than 1000 Hg I Y chromosomes from 60 population samples
revealed several subclades in Europe, with divergent
geographic distributions (30). Authors suggested that haplogroup
I provided an excellent record of pre-LGM differentiation
followed by geographic contraction, isolation,
and subsequent post-LGM expansions and spreading. Occurrence
of I1a in Scandinavia is consistent with a post-
LGM recolonization of northwestern Europe from Franco-
Cantabria. The expansion of I1b* in the wider Adriatic
area suggested demographic processes that started from
a refugium located in that region, whereas, I1c covers a
considerable part of Europe, with the highest frequencies
in northwestern Europe. It is suggested that haplogroup
I originated from a pre-LGM pool of Europeans (28,000-
23 000 years ago). Also, it appears that I1a, I1b, and I1c diverged
from I*, possibly during the post-LGM recolonization
of Europe. Regarding the Old Europeans in this area,
high short tandem repeat diversity within I1b* lineages
in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia supports the view
that the P37 short nucleotide polymorphism may have
been present in the Balkan area before the LGM. This implies
that the territories of these two countries were probably
very attractive for ‘summer vacation’ during the LGM.
from the Middle East.

Here is a full work of Croatian genetical research combined with european:

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

[Taranis]

Let me say this, I'm personally quite torn regarding I2a-Din. Generally, the idea that Haplogroup I as a whole is Paleolithic/Mesolithic in Europe is almost certain at this point. However, wether the I2a peak in the western Balkans is ancient or the result of a more recent founder effect, I'm quite divided on and I have come to no conclusion to this for myself.

The latest studies in this field (20,21) suggest that
Hg R membership, be it R1a-M17 or R1b-M269, in Europe is
a more recent (post-LGM) event (about ≤15 000 years ago).
According to those recent findings, it is possible that these
Hg R lineages began to spread from Western Asia into Europe
soon after the ice sheets began to retract but before
the arrival of farming in southeast Europe and Crete about
9000 years ago.

Well Dale, I am terribly sorry, I do not know what your source is, but this view regarding Haplogroups R1a/R1b is hopelessly outdated. We know for sure now that both R1a and R1b entered Europe significantly later than the end of the last ice age. The oldest occurence known thus far of R1a in Europe is from a site near Eulau, Germany, which dates back to the Corded Ware Culture (circa 2600 BC). The oldest find of R1b in Europe (thus far!) is from Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which dates into the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). Both the Neolithic sites of France (Treilles) and Germany (Derenburg) yielded no R1a or R1b what so ever.

[Noman]

Let me say this, I'm personally quite torn regarding I2a-Din. Generally, the idea that Haplogroup I as a whole is Paleolithic/Mesolithic in Europe is almost certain at this point. However, wether the I2a peak in the western Balkans is ancient or the result of a more recent founder effect, I'm quite divided on and I have come to no conclusion to this for myself.



Well Dale, I am terribly sorry, I do not know what your source is, but this view regarding Haplogroups R1a/R1b is hopelessly outdated. We know for sure now that both R1a and R1b entered Europe significantly later than the end of the last ice age. The oldest occurence known thus far of R1a in Europe is from a site near Eulau, Germany, which dates back to the Corded Ware Culture (circa 2600 BC). The oldest find of R1b in Europe (thus far!) is from Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which dates into the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). Both the Neolithic sites of France (Treilles) and Germany (Derenburg) yielded no R1a or R1b what so ever.

Evidence says to me r1a has always been right where it is. How can you say it's not always been there without providing an example of something there in the same place before it was. What a joke.

[sparkey]

Evidence says to me r1a has always been right where it is. How can you say it's not always been there without providing an example of something there in the same place before it was. What a joke.

"Right where it is?" Like Sweden? India? The United States?

OK, I get what you mean--Eastern Europe, with high concentrations in Balto-Slavs and some others. I do think that R1a (or at least R1a1a) has its MRCA location in or around the Eurasian Steppe, so Eastern Europe could have very ancient R1a indeed. The Balkans aren't exactly at the epicenter of that region, though, so it is likely younger there. One tricky thing about the Balkans is that it isn't entirely clear what its late Paleolithic composition was. If it was mainly I2, as many suggest, then the I2 presence there collapsed and then came back via its Western descendants. I think "not enough data to say for sure" is a valid response.

[Garrick]

"Right where it is?" Like Sweden? India? The United States?

OK, I get what you mean--Eastern Europe, with high concentrations in Balto-Slavs and some others. I do think that R1a (or at least R1a1a) has its MRCA location in or around the Eurasian Steppe, so Eastern Europe could have very ancient R1a indeed. The Balkans aren't exactly at the epicenter of that region, though, so it is likely younger there. One tricky thing about the Balkans is that it isn't entirely clear what its late Paleolithic composition was. If it was mainly I2, as many suggest, then the I2 presence there collapsed and then came back via its Western descendants. I think "not enough data to say for sure" is a valid response.

In Serbia dominant haplogroup is I. According Mirabal et al. (2010) I2a2 is 38,5%, I1 is 7,8% and I2b1 is 1,67%. I assumed that I2a2 (or perhaps I1) is the oldest haplogroup in Serbia and region but science says it is R1a. Although Regueiro et al. (2012), claim that I2a2 is old in Serbia about 9000 years, it is less than R1a for which authors claim that it is the 20,000-12,000 years ago. And other authors, for example Klyosov, claim that R1a is very old in Serbia (more than 10,000 years).

Possible that you’re right, that Balkan I2a2 had wrong way. Although for me is very unusual that all I bearers left the Balkans and then some back from North and East most in the form of I2a2. And it is very unusual link between R1a and I2a2. Serbs and Upper Macedonians (and slightly less Bosniacs) are quite different from Slavic population (Croats and Slovenes are much closer, first of all to Ukrainians), but they speak South Slavic language. It is big mystery. Serbs and Upper Macedonians are very Balkans people, perhaps most typical Balkan people watching haplogroups, which is not surprising as they are in the center of the Balkan Peninsula.

[Aristocephalic]

Well Dale, I am terribly sorry, I do not know what your source is, but this view regarding Haplogroups R1a/R1b is hopelessly outdated. We know for sure now that both R1a and R1b entered Europe significantly later than the end of the last ice age. The oldest occurence known thus far of R1a in Europe is from a site near Eulau, Germany, which dates back to the Corded Ware Culture (circa 2600 BC). The oldest find of R1b in Europe (thus far!) is from Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which dates into the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). Both the Neolithic sites of France (Treilles) and Germany (Derenburg) yielded no R1a or R1b what so ever.

There's been no ancient r1a or r1b found in west asia though, either.

[bicicleur]

There's been no ancient r1a or r1b found in west asia though, either.

well there is the r1a Andronovo, but that is rather central asia than west asia
is there any ancient dna tested in west asia ?

[zanipolo]

The latest I read, although I am sceptical

The very ancient Greek writers state that north of helles where only a people called Thraci. The area they covered was, the balkans and as far north as the baltic sea, incorporating, modern poland as well as czech, slovak, hungarian, bulgarian, rumanian, ex yugoslav area etc etc. The continued to push in a southern direction. The HG I in Balkans originated from these northern lands.

I will state, if you believe in the tales of Homer, you might believe in this.

I voted for paleolithic

[sparkey]

I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

[Greying Wanderer]

I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

"Or (2) a massive bottleneck"


*If* it is paleolithic continuity then there would need to be a reason why y dna I survived where it did and not elsewhere. The first most obvious factor is mountains, terrain unsuitable for neolithic farming, thus providing a refuge. However even if they had a refuge the population density of the surviving HGs would be much lower than the adjacent farmers which makes me wonder how the percentage of I in the total population could be so high even in the refuge areas of Scandinavia and the Dinaric Alps.


So it seems to me some kind of bottleneck would be expected where some of the surviving HGs adapt to agriculture in some way that allowed their population to expand. Otherwise as farmers gradually improved their crops and techniques over the centuries they would eventually have expanded into the terrain they previously ignored swamping the surviving HGs.


It seems to me ultimately there has to be a HG to farmer transition in refuge terrain **before** the outside farmers adapt to that terrain and spread into it.


In which case the importance of the refuge isn't so much the refuge in itself but the **time** it gave to allow the local HG population to adapt - the difference between adapt within 100 years or die and adapt within 1000 years or die.


So the Din bottleneck may be the descendants of a family of HGs who adapted to farming in some way - either something physical like lactose tolerance or cultural like taking up herding thus allowing HG-Farmer population expansion.


For example, some HG taken as a child and made into a slave shepherd / cowherd and later escaped back to his own people with some stolen sheep/cows.

[Ike]

*If* it is paleolithic continuity then there would need to be a reason why y dna I survived where it did and not elsewhere. The first most obvious factor is mountains, terrain unsuitable for neolithic farming, thus providing a refuge. However even if they had a refuge the population density of the surviving HGs would be much lower than the adjacent farmers which makes me wonder how the percentage of I in the total population could be so high even in the refuge areas of Scandinavia and the Dinaric Alps.

So it seems to me some kind of bottleneck would be expected where some of the surviving HGs adapt to agriculture in some way that allowed their population to expand. Otherwise as farmers gradually improved their crops and techniques over the centuries they would eventually have expanded into the terrain they previously ignored swamping the surviving HGs.

If we assume Paleolithic continuity we get very good fit of I2a-Din covering the whole SE Europe. Current distribution could be related to I2 being pushed towards mountainous areas, by the invaders from the South and from the Danube.

[Greying Wanderer]

If we assume Paleolithic continuity we get very good fit of I2a-Din covering the whole SE Europe. Current distribution could be related to I2 being pushed towards mountainous areas, by the invaders from the South and from the Danube.

Or the link **prior** to I2a-Din was the paleolithic continuity that covered SE Europe and some individual guy from that group with the I2a-Din mutation was the one who sparked a forager to farmer transformation that led to a population expansion large enough to allow I2 forager dna to survive.

[ihype02]

I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

Sparkley, how do you explain:
1.) The contrast of northern Slavs and Southern Slavs: the high frequencies of R1a in northern Slavs and low frequencies in southern ones. Considering they originated from mostly similar regions.
2.) The idea of some pagan tribes which knew little in antiquity overruning nearly the whole Eastern Europe. Do you have any demographic evidence? The only thing that comes to my mind is the plague of Justian which killed off the bulk of population in Eastern Mediterranean.

[Daniel]

I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

slavic basketball player .jpgThe Balkans by the seas have been one of the major refugia and corridors and Slavs average among the tallest in the world so yeah that could indicate some I2a continuity. Lots of Megaliths (see Black Sea Megalithic Bow) too, which as we know spread via both land and sea via I2a. Sea people, yeah they supposedly consisted at least partly of escaped slaves / maybe Slavs

[Pirro]

Dear Zanipolo, did You Know any so called ancient greek tribue amed `hellas`? Do You know then name Hellen is from Helene. Helen have i albanian language significance of e lene, e braktisur- or in english- cast women, forlorn women. So,, why are you lying about ancient greece, when in that time all ancient tribues have been pelasgic-illyrian? Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..

[Ike]

Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..

Which could also mean that a lot of Albanian cultural and linguistic heritage comes from Greeks...

[Asturrulumbo]

I would also (cautiously, very cautiously) point towards it being Palaeolithic (or the Mesolithic) for the simple reason that if I2a weren't the Palaeolithic/Mesolithic haplogroup there was in that region, I don't see which could; as well as the fact that I see rather improbable that it entered (en masse, that is) at another time:
1. Early Indo-Europeans: Were this the case, this zone would have been a hotspot for Indo-European migration, and archaeology tells of quite the contrary:

In the Western Balkans there are few remains to connect with these bronze-using "proto-Illyrians", except in western Serbia and eastern Bosnia.

John Wilkes, The Illyrians, p. 34
And while in these areas there does appear to have been an Indo-European migration (though not nearly as large as in other places), in places where there is a higher concentration (such as the Croatian Islands & coast as well as western,southern & central Bosnia) there is no evidence of a migration, all the contrary (ibid).
2. Sea peoples: There is no evidence (archaeological or otherwise) of an intrusion of this area that I know of...
3. Sarmatians: In my opinion, Sarmatians are very closely related to Scythians, and they are both Iranic peoples, and they were probably R1a in their majority (especially East Iranians, as West Iranians had much more hg. J)
4. Slavs: I believe what may be a telling point against this theory is the lack of R1a (otherwise omnipresent in all other Slavic peoples) in this region.

...a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.

This may be possible, but in my opinion only for some (perhaps most, certainly not all) of the I2a.

[Shetop]

4. Slavs: I believe what may be a telling point against this theory is the lack of R1a (otherwise omnipresent in all other Slavic peoples) in this region.

I don't understand this. Is R1a Slavic by default? What you wrote is not an argument but stereotype.
Do you know that Slavic language was not spoken in any part of Poland territory 1600 years ago? And today in Poland R1a has frequency of more than 50%. So what happened there? Did this people migrate to Poland or something else happened? If they did migrate I don't see why similar thing could not have happened with I2a-Din - they migrated to Balkans.

There is one thing I liked about your post - you tried to point out an evidence against each of those options.

From what I read from the beginning of this topic - there is no credible argument which would point out that "The Slavs" theory doesn't hold.
On the other side age of the clade is strong argument against paleolithic continuity.

[Sile]

I don't understand this. Is R1a Slavic by default? What you wrote is not an argument but stereotype.
Do you know that Slavic language was not spoken in any part of Poland territory 1600 years ago? And today in Poland R1a has frequency of more than 50%. So what happened there? Did this people migrate to Poland or something else happened? If they did migrate I don't see why similar thing could not have happened with I2a-Din - they migrated to Balkans.

There is one thing I liked about your post - you tried to point out an evidence against each of those options.

From what I read from the beginning of this topic - there is no credible argument which would point out that "The Slavs" theory doesn't hold.
On the other side age of the clade is strong argument against paleolithic continuity.

The "east germanic " tribes migrated en-masse to the west and left empty lands in polish areas. east german tribes that left, longobards, burgundians, goths, vandals, heruli, and many many more

[LeBrok]

The "east germanic " tribes migrated en-masse to the west and left empty lands in polish areas. east german tribes that left, longobards, burgundians, goths, vandals, heruli, and many many more

That's true, from archeology we know that current territory of Poland was greatly depopulated just before Slavic expansion.
However, some indigenous people had survived there. We know that, because big number of toponyms and hydronyms is not of Slavic origin with Vistula river on top of the list.

[Asturrulumbo]

I don't understand this. Is R1a Slavic by default? What you wrote is not an argument but stereotype.
Do you know that Slavic language was not spoken in any part of Poland territory 1600 years ago? And today in Poland R1a has frequency of more than 50%. So what happened there? Did this people migrate to Poland or something else happened? If they did migrate I don't see why similar thing could not have happened with I2a-Din - they migrated to Balkans.

I never mentioned R1a was exclusively Slavic, but if Proto-Slavs (the ancestors of all Slavs) had it in their majority, then by extension a population with a low amount of R1a is unlikely to have Slavs among their main ancestors.
If I2a is not Palaeolithic, then it may well be Mesolithic, and in my opinion an undervalued possibility is that some (or perhaps all...) came to the Balkans with the Neolithic expansion.
Edit: Yes, I have analyzed this and it would seem to me that there are at least legitimate possibilities that either I2a came during the Mesolithic from the Mediterranean or from the Middle East during the Neolithic, maybe both. I* may be Paleolithic...

[Besa]

I would also (cautiously, very cautiously) point towards it being Palaeolithic (or the Mesolithic) for the simple reason that if I2a weren't the Palaeolithic/Mesolithic haplogroup there was in that region, I don't see which could; as well as the fact that I see rather improbable that it entered (en masse, that is) at another time:
1. Early Indo-Europeans: Were this the case, this zone would have been a hotspot for Indo-European migration, and archaeology tells of quite the contrary:

John Wilkes, The Illyrians, p. 34
And while in these areas there does appear to have been an Indo-European migration (though not nearly as large as in other places), in places where there is a higher concentration (such as the Croatian Islands & coast as well as western,southern & central Bosnia) there is no evidence of a migration, all the contrary (ibid).
2. Sea peoples: There is no evidence (archaeological or otherwise) of an intrusion of this area that I know of...
3. Sarmatians: In my opinion, Sarmatians are very closely related to Scythians, and they are both Iranic peoples, and they were probably R1a in their majority (especially East Iranians, as West Iranians had much more hg. J)
4. Slavs: I believe what may be a telling point against this theory is the lack of R1a (otherwise omnipresent in all other Slavic peoples) in this region.

This may be possible, but in my opinion only for some (perhaps most, certainly not all) of the I2a.

I voted slavs because they were slavicized Sarmatians.

You're quite wrong. The arrival of the two Slavicized Sarmatian tribes (Croats and Serbs) to the balkans is very well historically recorded. They were invited by the Roman empire to todays Croatia and Bosnia Herzogovina, bringing I2a and R1a.. which is a hotspot of I2a and to a lesser extent, R1a. the same region they came from, probably the Carpathian mountains recorded by Romans, is also a hot spot of I2a... and was a Sarmatian location and contact zone with slavs, which explains Romanians and their high i2a but also J2 and EV-13. The i2a in Slavs is from Sarmatians. later on they created empires and asimilated some of the already indigenous population of EV-13 and J2. Most of the south slavs and Croatia hasn't changed much, still high I2a and R1a, and there is a reason they speak slavic, and slavic culture. A minority wouldn't be able to asimilate a majority, unless we are talking military power which happened later on. but in the start they were invited to Croatia and Bosnia and came peaceful, there they settled and after the fall of the romans, the slavic empire spread all across the Balkans. If I2a was Illyrian/Thracian, explain how EV-13 exists among slavs even in non-albanian populated places, and how I2a is so low among Albanians? The longer south you go from Croatia and Bosnia (The place where the sarmatian-slavs were invited) the less I2a and R1a becomes... I2a became spread across balkans with the spread of slavic empires, like the Serbian empire which stretched all the way in to greece, slavicizing some of the populations.


read more here with pictures and everything:

misiraj . blogspot . no / 2015 / 03 / ancestors-of-croatians-and-haplogroup . html

misiraj . blogspot . no / 2015 / 03 / haplogroup-i2a-dinaric-and-slavic . html



Explain to me where Albanians came from? And how their language has words dating back to the Roman era? How it is a non-slavicized language, non-latinized, although latin words exist, their ancestors might of spoken latin in the roman empire... and non greek-language, except for some loan words. but they share mythology with ancient greeks. they lived mostly in the region today where they live. the EV-13 and J2 in south-slavs is from asimilating some proto-Albanians. But most south Slavs, especially Croatians are the most Sarmatian-Slavic of all, with Bosnians and Serbs coming in 2nd, and then Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians, and then the greeks (because of the Serbian empire, R1a and I2a exists in greece.. probably the least Slavs and Sarmatians are Albanians who fled to the mountains.

The old Balkan people and the first inhabitants of the Balkans were E carriers and J2, they came from Egypt or Caucasus/Anatolia.. like the Pelasgians are believed to of come from Egypt. Then came R1b with the celts and maybe roman empire, and then came I2a and R1a with the proto-croatiand and proto-serbs.

The Pelasgians are believed to of been the ancestors of Illyrians and Thracians, they spoke a non-greek language and came from Egypt carrying haplogroup E, with some of them being asimilated with greeks. This is where the Greek-Albanian connection comes from, similar haplogroups, similar ancient mythology, similar culture in many aspects but two different languages, with the similarities being of Albanian having Dorian loan words.

The modern scholars dismissing the Albanian-Pelasgian connection is a claim with nothing to back it up. I can back it up with the haplogroups and history, where the Pelasgians came from and how they spoke a non greek language, how from there they immigrated north and divided into tribes. I remember even people here have connected Albanians to Egypt.

Pic of Pelasgian location in the start, before they might of immigrated north:

upload . wikimedia .org / wikipedia / commons / 6 / 6 7 / Pelasgians . jpg


The Dacians are believed to of been a Thracian tribe, which explains the Albanian-Romanian connection, it explains allot of similar words, it doesn't mean the Albanians immigrated to today from Dacia because there are similar words or because there is a tribe called Bessoi who immigrated there, there are tribes around the area they live that could be connected with them too like the Dardanians and Dalmatians. You can even connect the capital of Romania with the Albanians, bucuresti, Alb: ''Bukur'' = ''beautiful''.. male form: Bukuroshi... female form: Bukuroshja .. or male: ''Bukurosh'' and female: ''bukuroshe'' it means beautiful expressed in different forms.

it allows you to express allot of words in both male and female form in many different ways.

The proto-south-slavs (i2a, r1b) asimilated some of the EV-13, R1b, and J2 carriers (proto-Albanians) and I believe by this, proto-albanian language helped form the south-slavic languages.

If I2a is Illyrian/Thracian, and not Slavic-Sarmatian then explain to me the high EV-13 and J2-Balkanic among Romanians and also among some south Slavs like Serbs, Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians? And how I2a fits with where the proto slavs came from (Ukraine/Moldova) and to where they settled (Croatia/Bosnia Herz) and how it diminishes the more south you go.

Picture:

freepages . genealogy . rootsweb . ancestry . com / ~ villandra / McKinstry / I2b1 / HaploIMap . gif

Location of Sarmatians:

fravahr.org / IMG / jpg / Scythians _ Map . jpg

There is no doubt the Sarmatians carried I2a into Already R1a slavic populations. this explains the i2a among slavs across europe.

The high I2a among Aroumns/Vlachs can be explained depending on where, they live all across the balkans. Many of them asimilating with the slavic population. They have also high E and J2, with the I2a they got from Sarmatians/Slavs. they have High R1b, the R1b could of come from either Romans or the Celts. The Romans must of carried some R1b into the balkans.

the proto-south-slavs could also of immigrated first to Poland from the Carpathians and then to Balkans.

R1a could of come with the early slavic settlements too (Sclaveni, antes) this explains the r1a in greek macedonia, where apparently the early slavs (before south slavs) settled. Slavs were known to of roamed all over these regions.. I don't know why this is not taken into consideration, when it is full of historical records. It is said they even formed a slavic macedonia (not fyrom). This, to me, disputes the claim that the ancient macedonians were haplogroup R1a carriers but rather EV-13 and J2.


wikipedia . org / wiki / Sclaveni

'' '' antes_people

But one thing you people, who claim I2a is illyrian, need to explain to me is how EV-13 and J2 exists in Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs? Please go ahead, I will listen. I'm open for anything as long as it has a logical explanation. And how it is historically recorded the proto-Serbs and Croats were invited to Croatia and Bosnia, if these people are Illyrian, why do they call themselves today with similar names of the ones who settled? Why do they speak a slavic language?

R1b, EV-13, I2a and J2b in anatolia can come from balkanic immigrations to the region during ottoman empire. There are millions of balkan people living there, atleast half of them have been asimilated and have only partial ancestry.