How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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I2a1 could come with Vandals (Sardinia) while I2a2 with Ostrogoths (Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia). Both were non-Germanic tribes, contrary to claims of German propaganda.
 
Dinaric I2a got to its current position either directly from Anatolia through Greece to their highest concentration location of Bosnia Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia area. Or through the Caucasus and extreme southern Russia hugging the coast of the black sea until penetrating Ukraine until reaching Moldova from where they subsequently spread to their current highest % locations in the Balkans, in my opinion.
 
Here is my answer to the thread's original question - Slavic migrations represented on a map of Ukrainian origin. The tribes were initially somewhere in western Ukraine, moved south to western Moldavia (or Romanian Moldavia), then to Wallachia and from there to different parts of the Balkans. My opinion is that this scenario was the same for all Balkan I2a-Din. The time frame for Bulgarian and Macedonian Slavs is well described in historical sources, and for Slavs that are now are west from them I give interpretation that is not mine originally but it is also not broadly accepted. So, I think that the crucial event was when Avars destroyed Gepid kingdom in 568, when large number of Slavs moved west and southwest from Wallachia. For initial reading see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni .

SlavicMigrations.jpg

I've had this opinion for some time but two recent researches additionally convinced me. First one from Romania which showed only 12% for I2a in Cluj, and second one more recent, from Bulgaria which gave approximate ratio between Din-N and Din-S in Bulgaria. It seems to be around 55% Din-N : 45% Din-S.
 
This proofs only one thing:I2a-Din was not in the Balkan during Roman times.
 
resurrecting an old renaissance theory with current modern new ideas.

I2a as reported by KenN is ukraine and moldovian which in the late bronze-age and early iron-age was the land of the Cimmeranians. The cimmeranians where pushed out of the pontic steppe by the scythians.
Recored history tells us that one branch of the cimmeranians went to Anatolia ( cappodocia)and the other branch settled initially in the Hungarian plains ( pannonia ).
A further split occurred as one branch went from pannonia to dalmatia and the other along the danube and sava rivers.
By 500BC they had been absorbed by eastward moving celts and disappeared from history in the balkans.

My take, I am unsure, I still ask if the I2a went into the balkans, then what marker was in northern Illyria since there is very very little of the E marker there
 
Many Roman emperors were born in areas that are high with I2a nowdays.
Any research on their haplotyope?
 
My thoughts on how I2a1 got to the balkans
It arrived by 700BC with the cimmeranians, they then merged with "illyrians" who where R1b and G2a in majority and swept south over time punching into E1B thracian lands. eventually to be stopped by the macedonians

Note: there where other haplotypes but I focused on the main



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u gues are making i2a1b much more recent than it actullely is G2a came in Neloithic R1a and R1b came in brnze age hg I has been in europe for over 30,000 years. I2a1b has probably been in eastern europe for over 15,000 years it is re everything exceot paloithic it is from cavman times u cant find a Neolithic ion age culture that will match where i2a1b came from. trying to say iit is the cimmermans honestly makes n sense at all.
 
Fire Haired said:
u gues are making i2a1b much more recent than it actullely is G2a came in Neloithic R1a and R1b came in brnze age hg I has been in europe for over 30,000 years. I2a1b has probably been in eastern europe for over 15,000 years it is re everything exceot paloithic it is from cavman times u cant find a Neolithic ion age culture that will match where i2a1b came from. trying to say iit is the cimmermans honestly makes n sense at all.
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It's possible to claim both that the ancestors of I2a-Din were Paleolithic Europeans, and that its modern spread is primarily the result of much later migrations. Hence why I argue that I2a-Din descends from residents of Paleolithic Europe (I've argued for the Franco-Iberian Ice Age refuge, although most other authors argue for the Balkans); but at the same time I believe it spread later with the Slavs. I think that's the best guess you get when you traverse the I2 tree. I2a P37.2+ as a whole is very western in its diversity and seems to have an affinity for the Atlantic Fringe and the Rhine. I2a-Din itself is in fact a geographic outlier in the I2a family, and STR dating, along with a lack of ancient samples compared to I2a1a M26+, indicates that it only became the most common I2a subclade recently.
 
Why slavs the Slavic marker is R1a1a1b1 not I2a1b. The slavic language spread to Yugoslavia in the middle ages. I2a1b had already been there it is much more rare in the place Slavic languages spread from to Yugoslavia in my opinion there is no way that is the source. Frm what Maciamo says I2a1 started 20,000ybp in a ice age refuge somewhere ins outhern Europe then I2a1a(western meditreaen) and I2a1b split almost immeditaly. That is what he said in his Genetic history of Italy that makes alot more sense to me.

The extremly recent I1 dates make no sense at all there is no evidence that I1a2 spread in Scandinavia from Neolithic, Bronze, or Iron age cultures.
 
Fire Haired said:
Why slavs the Slavic marker is R1a1a1b1 not I2a1b.
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No population has only one marker. I agree, in fact, that the pre-proto-Slavs, i.e. the Balto-Slavs, would have probably been R1a dominant. Their shared R1a testifies to this. After that, the most likely scenario I see is the two populations splitting and absorbing and/or expanding local N1c (in the case of the Balts) and I2a-Din (in the case of the Slavs) markers.

Fire Haired said:
The slavic language spread to Yugoslavia in the middle ages. I2a1b had already been there it is much more rare in the place Slavic languages spread from to Yugoslavia in my opinion there is no way that is the source.
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You're making an argument from modern frequency again. Haven't you read yet about why this is a poor line of reasoning?

Fire Haired said:
Frm what Maciamo says I2a1 started 20,000ybp in a ice age refuge somewhere ins outhern Europe then I2a1a(western meditreaen) and I2a1b split almost immeditaly. That is what he said in his Genetic history of Italy that makes alot more sense to me.
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All of that is basically correct, and not incompatible with I2a1b3a L147.2+ ("I2a-Din") being spread by the Slavs. Notice that I2a-Din is even further downstream than I2a1b. It's a young haplogroup (younger than I1!). So it can both have ancestors as you describe, and be spread by the Slavs coming down from the Ukraine area.
 
sparkey said:
No population has only one marker. I agree, in fact, that the pre-proto-Slavs, i.e. the Balto-Slavs, would have probably been R1a dominant. Their shared R1a testifies to this. After that, the most likely scenario I see is the two populations splitting and absorbing and/or expanding local N1c (in the case of the Balts) and I2a-Din (in the case of the Slavs) markers.
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Dont u know slavic langauges have only been in the Balkans for about 1,000 years. I2a1b in modern Yugolsvaiens without a doubt is from Illryains their Yugoslavians ancestors. Polish are very very very different genetically than Yugoslavians just because modern Yugoslavians speak a Slavic languages does not mean they come from the same stock as Polish and Russians. I really dont see any connection with I2a1b and Slavs. For one thing I2a1b is mainly in southeast Europe not slavic speaking areas. The Balto Slavic language was spread by Corded ware culture there is no connection with I2a1b Slavs, or corded ware culture. In my opinion I2a1b is a Paloithic haplogroup that was able to survive migrations and invasions. &,000ybp it probably dominated all of eastern Europe except Russia which is where proto Indo Europeans would have been.

sparkey said:
All of that is basically correct, and not incompatible with I2a1b3a L147.2+ ("I2a-Din") being spread by the Slavs. Notice that I2a-Din is even further downstream than I2a1b. It's a young haplogroup (younger than I1!). So it can both have ancestors as you describe, and be spread by the Slavs coming down from the Ukraine area.
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I1 is not yound at all i get sick of these young haplogroup predictions. The people that make these predictions dont even consider ancient Cultures like where they where at what time. They would realize there is no way I1 is less than 10,000 years old. The Scientits who figure all of the DNA stuff out are terrible at making conclusions on how it spread to figure that stuff out u need to be like a detective not a sceintits.

Think about it Kunda culture 8,000ybp conquered Finalnd and brough N1c and Urlaic languages. Finnish still speak a Uralic language and are dominated by N1c but they still have alot of I1a2. The native Finnish where Caucasian we have their skulls and some mtDNA the invading Kunda culture where Mongliods from Siberia. I1a2 is the native Caucasian haplogroup there is no way N1c was there before I1a2. There was no Neloithic, Bronze, age, or Iron age culture that existed throughout all of Scandinavia that could explain how I1a2 is spread out.

Scandinavia is very far north and cold. Farming, bronze, and iron making spread to Scandinavia last and usuelly was only in southern Scandinavia. How do u explain how well spread out I1a2 is. People in far northern Scandinavia where hunter gathers till i think just 1,000ybp they had almost no contact with Germanic tribes. I1a2 is the native Scandinavian group it settled Scandinavia probably 11,000ybp then later migrations brought new haplogroups. which is why R1b, R1a, N1c, I2a2, G2a, E1b1b,J1, J2, and R1a are in certain areas of Scandinavia that match pre historic cultures while I1a2 is spread out.

also the rest of Europe has diff subclades than Scandinavia u already know this. All of this mean I1 is very very old in my opinion 20,000-30,000 years old. It probably spread out f southern Europe after the last glacial maximum. Giving a date to I1 too 5,000ybp is a joke then how do u explain how spread out it is in Scandinavia and why the rest of Europe has diff subclades than Scandinavia and how I1 has so many subclades.
 
sparkey said:
It's possible to claim both that the ancestors of I2a-Din were Paleolithic Europeans, and that its modern spread is primarily the result of much later migrations. Hence why I argue that I2a-Din descends from residents of Paleolithic Europe (I've argued for the Franco-Iberian Ice Age refuge, although most other authors argue for the Balkans); but at the same time I believe it spread later with the Slavs. I think that's the best guess you get when you traverse the I2 tree. I2a P37.2+ as a whole is very western in its diversity and seems to have an affinity for the Atlantic Fringe and the Rhine. I2a-Din itself is in fact a geographic outlier in the I2a family, and STR dating, along with a lack of ancient samples compared to I2a1a M26+, indicates that it only became the most common I2a subclade recently.
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If I2a-Din came with the slavs in the 5th century AD, then illyrians would have been in majority R1b and that means indo-europeans. Is this what you are alluding to?

Ken N states the marker( i2a) came from ukraine, the only major migration into "illyrian" lands for that marker in BC times ( iron-age) was from the cimmerains. If it was introduced in the bronze-age then it cannot have been a ukraine marker.
 
zanipolo said:
Ken N states the marker( i2a) came from ukraine, the only major migration into "illyrian" lands for that marker in BC times ( iron-age) was from the cimmerains. If it was introduced in the bronze-age then it cannot have been a ukraine marker.
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Why do you think I2a-Din migrated "in BC times" ?
 
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