How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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The toponym Floka brought me at your hometown Γαργαλιάνων, i discovered a little interesting thing, at the page 130-131 in the Defter of Morea are mentioned the Albanian villages near Gargalianoi: Muzak Mengisa (today village Μουζακα in the east), also a wellknown Albanian toponym Gerbesi\Gjerbes, so the authors Assenova, Stojkov, Kacorri (1977), Georgacas-Mcdonald(1968) determined that the area\place called Κρύψα\Krypsa correspond with this old Albanian Village, can you guess where is situated this place !? Yes ...it's Gargalianoi\Γαργαλιάνων, your hometown ....περιοχή Κρύψα Γαργαλιάνων !!! We have around that area, Pan-Albanian toponimies such as: Floka, Gerbesi, Muzaka, Mali ( meaning mountain in Albanian) etc. Do you understand now why the surnames Krekouki, Gliata etc in your hometown !?
 
Also there is quite a difference between δε Ρόσσης\de Rossi : Zakynthos year 1851 n.1350 Γεώργιος δε Ρόσσης του Δημητρίου and Ρουσσης\Rrushi: n.1356 Δημήτριος Ρουσσης του Νικολάου, its not so hard to understand!!


Do you know why that Albanian Village Βουγιατο(Bujati) in Zakynthos, its called so!? It is a Albanian surname - BUA - with the typical Albanian suffix - at\ati - , do you know that the most famous branch\offshoot of that Arvanitic Clan are the Grivas -> Θεόδωρος Μπούα Γρίβας ...there is a explanation for every name in that list!!
 
Now the case of the "unexpected" case of Zielinski I-Y18331*, also in the FTDNA database from 31 participants downstream I-Y18331 ( two are basal I-Y18331: 'Greek'-Xenos and Polish-Zielinski) 13 members are Greeks, 2 unknown and 16 member generally Slavs ..
How do you explain this results, do you still believe in the Celtic 'tourists' ?!
 
You recieve notifications for replies and quotes here? Becuase that never happened to me.

Same. I never get notifications.
 
@ exercitus

because i have read enough here,
and because I see an attacking behavour,

First
Floka and other are also common words in Aromanian,
Flokas for example mean wool velvet blanket or carpet, flokos is the rope-tie,
Gjin is also Aromanian and means good, Surename Gjinis = good man
Bardi is found all over Greece, look out river Bardar or Vardar it is Thracian and means Black
Gikas are known Aromanian family.

So every effort I see here from you it is just a repeat of the same,
the Arbanites of Greece are proud and know who they are,
The rest like the Lala Turk-Albanians Left Greece and Peloponese.
I also suggest read Kolokotronis memories.


second
people live but toponyms may stay.
in my area there is strong toponym of Albanian language. But no Albanian village or people there.
WHY? because the toponyme enter by Albanian-Ottoman army that existed here, (over 7000 Albanians soldiers) specially after 1860 till Balkan wars.

Aftermath
Generic impresions which want to make impressions to ignorants,

Btw
tsisi fatsi?
Gjini tini?
Vlach language.
How are you?
Good and you?


END
the only you manage to do is to prove that Albanian has and had strong Aromanian- Rama polulation element

still I don't understand that with Rousso Rosso etc.
I will not take it as serious.
 
Now the case of the "unexpected" case of Zielinski I-Y18331*, also in the FTDNA database from 31 participants downstream I-Y18331 ( two are basal I-Y18331: 'Greek'-Xenos and Polish-Zielinski) 13 members are Greeks, 2 unknown and 16 member generally Slavs ..
How do you explain this results, do you still believe in the Celtic 'tourists' ?!
Venetian dominion on Peloponnese in the end of the 15th and beginning of the 16th century was limited to a few cities/ports, such those of Argos, Modon (Methoni), Coroni, Monemvasia, Naflion, and Patras. It is from these "free" ports that the boarding on to ships and migration was only possible. Unless you think refugees would get boarded in Ottoman controlled ports. It is obvious that Arvanites from throughout Peloponnese assembled in these "free" cities with the aim to leave, not that they were previously inhabiting these cities. Out of all people, you who have access to the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) should know that Arvanites lived mainly in villages of the country side, and this can be explained by the nomadic lifestyle they exercised. By the way, no need to share the article by Levent Kayapinar; where do you think i got the prior statistics i shared?

Now, on numbers. I already shared the information with you that the Venetian chronicler Stefano Magno in his "Annali Veneti" mentions that the total number of Arvanites in Peloponnese in the end of the 15th century was around 30,000. That is regardless of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463) and its census. The total number of Arvanites throughout Peloponnese (including the Venetian cities) was 30,000. You gave a number of approximately 13,000 Arbereshe, but let's say only 10,000 of those came from Peloponnese. We also have many Arvanites that went to Zakynthos, let's say 5,000 which i consider reasonable. 10,000+5,000 = 15,000. 30,000-15,000 = 15,000. That's already half of whom would remain, but it's actually less because Arvanites would have migrated in other places as well. A few went to a number islands in the Aegean, while a big chunk of them would also settle on Hydra and Spetses at the end of the 17th century, so did many Greek families by the way from all over Greece. To give you some perspective. A traveller named De Fleury mentions that Hydra in 1679 had 1000 inhabitants. In 1668 many would migrate on the island, to the point that a little more than a century later at the time of the Greek Revolution Hydra would have 16,500 inhabitants and 10,000 migrants. So, the statistics between 1461 and 1861 actually make sense. At the 1800s Arvanites of Peloponnese were 10% of the population, and that is without considering the frequency of Greek names and surnames among them.

You also mention the 18th century Labs/Chams. I have already written that these are the Laliotes and Barduniotes who settled in Peloponnese in the 18th century. They were initially Christians but became Muslims, hence the epithet μουρτάτες (turkish "murtad" or apostate).These would leave Peloponnese during the Greek Revolution, which was the case for most if not all the Muslims in Peloponnese consisting of Turks, Albanians, Gypsies, and Greeks. Many went to Antalya (opposite Cyprus), others via Patras, Aigion, and Corinth towards Ottoman controlled areas including Albania. There were no Laliotes or Bardouniotes after the Greek Revolution, and especially when we get the censuses of the 1800s which i shared. Furthermore, the numbers of these Laliotes and Bardouniotes was small. Laliotes amounted to some 3000 and Bardouniotes to some 2000. Take into account that the total population of Peloponnese would be 400,000 based on the census of 1828.

You also mention Evangelia Balta but you didn't disclose the page. First of all, these surnames are obviously a small minority among all of the surnames found in central and north Euboea, and if you give me the actual names as writen in Greek i will give you an approximate number of inhabitants that have them. But besides that the Arvanites of Euboea were concentrated in south-central/southern part of the island with their northernmost village being Αχλαδερή. Some of those surnames could and surely are traced to Arvanite ancestors, but that's not due to some settlement that got assimilated, but due to free movement. Similarly you will find countless of Greek surnames throughout the southern part where the Arvanite settlements are to be found. By the way, even the southern part wasn't completely Arvanite, since south-western Euboea had a cluster of Greek-speaking presence such as Karystos. Per the census of 1861 southern Euboea (without Karystos which was Greek-speaking) had 17,822 inhabitants in a total population of Euboea amounting to 58,777. Though based on a report of a study by the secretary of the Municipality of Karystos that is also mentioned in the book of Kostas Biris, the number of Arvanites in Euboea during the Ottoman period was some 10,000. Per Johann Georg von Hahn that i mentioned previously, in 1854 Euboea had 25,000 Arvanites in a total population of 72,368, therefore all these statistics compliment each other. As aforementioned free movement on the island can explain why you might have some of those surnames further north, and when you are surrounded by a larger majority it is natural for you to become assimilated. There was no secret plan of such assimilation, especially during a depend period under Ottoman rule.

If there was a nationalist agenda to change all of the non-Greek toponymes you wouldn't be able to find so many of them throughout the country with some being Slavic, Aromanian, Arvanite, or Turkish. Why does Attica still have so many Arvanite toponymes if there was a plan of replacing them. Furthermore, don't play me the victim please. Maybe you would like to translate for our friends what this following directive from the Albanian Ministry of Interior in 1930 (June 6) says,
https://i.ibb.co/QP896DF/albania-1930.jpg. It doesn't get any more official that that.

Regarding Floka, it is an Aromanian loan, from "floc", which respectively has a Latin root from "floccus",
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%BB%CF%8C%CE%BA%CE%B1. We also have Romanian "floc". Just because you also find it in Albanian, it doesn't make it of Albanian origin. I saw the reference for Η απογραφή των Κραβάρων στο οθωμανικό φορολογικό κατάστιχο ΜΜ10 (1454-1455), but this is an incomplete etymology. Nonetheless, we do see the surname in settlements inhabited by Aromanians. For example, the region of Kalabaka which has many Aromanians seems to have the second highest frequency throughout Greece. Even if you find it as a toponym of Arvanite areas it doesn't really mean much, because it is almost certain that some Aromanians would have accompanied Arvanites through the migration towards Greece. It is believed intermingling between them happened early due to the fact of an identical nomadic lifestyle and the fact that Aromanians, especially Arvanitovlachs would also speak Albanian. Some authors even consider Bua tribe of Aromanian origin, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bua_(tribe), with their members leading the Arvanite migrants in Peloponnese and later in Italy. I know that the article says minority of authors, but they really aren't with authors such as Pouqueville, Αραβαντινός, Wace, Thompson, Jireček, Iorga, Capidan, Winnifrith, Κουκούδης, and Hammond. It's just that the Albanian editors of that article watered it down.

I already know the toponyms around Gargalianoi for Christ sake, do you think i am that ignorant. Most of the settlements are of Greek etymology as you can see here,
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%AE%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%93%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89%CE%BD, with Gargalianoi itself likewise as you can read in this extensive etymological analysis of the toponym, http://www.grissh.gr/system/articles/assets/5c6e/7438/5574/4153/2200/0033/original/PLATON_FC4198-12.pdf?1550742584. Toponyms such as Floka, Muzaka, and Mali are kilometers away and didn't even used to be part of the old sub-demotic divisions. Mali wasn't even part of the old demotic division. Here is a broader list with many old Messenian toponyms and their etymologies.
https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion
https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion-z-k
https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion-l-x
https://sites.google.com/site/ddstamatopoulos/home-1/merika-choria-tou-kallikratikou-demou-tes-dytikes-manes-e-orthe-etymologia-kai-e-semasia-tous/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion/etymologia-palaion-messeniakon-toponymion-0---o
With that said, Flokas, Gerbesis, and Mouzakis, are obviously related with the aforementioned stratioti families that eventually migrated to Zakynthos, and thus are simply remnants that have nothing to do with the majority of the local population. There are some surnames with Arvanite etymology but the vast majority aren't. As for the aforementioned toponymes, Γκέρμπεση hasn't even survived, today we use Κρύψα which is of Greek etymology. It's known that stratioti were rewarded with land pieces. For example, Γκέρμπεσης is recorded as one of the stratioti (you can see it in the etymologies of the links above), which although not part of the list you shared in Zakynthos, modern distribution of the surname is exclusively there (the one sample from Athens is obviously a domestic migrant of the capital),
https://i.ibb.co/rvZvKLd/Gerbesis-name-distribution.png. Same with Floka (which the list above has with an Aromanian etymology), a stratioti family that also migrated to Zakynthos and today as an actual surname (not toponym) has the largest frequency opposite the coast of Zakynthos, https://i.ibb.co/X7NYm1H/Flokas-name-distribution.png. Mouzaki likewise is in the list you shared with the stratioti of Zakynthos. Last, of a personal note, my surname is of Greek etymology and found throughout a number of settlements, not just Gargalianoi.

I told you that i didn't have time to go over the whole list, i looked at it quickly. By the way, Ρούσσης doesn't only render rrushi, but also Greek ρούσσος that has a number of meanings,
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82. Also, i did mention Bua above again with his possible Aromanian origin, but on Grivas, i told you that this is a Greek word that can be traced way before the arrival of Arvanites in Greece, even before the appearance of them in the historical record. In Greek γρίβας means the grey horse and can be found all the way back to poems such as Digenis Akritas (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%B9%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%82_%CE%91%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%82), for example «εις ίππον γρίβαν επιβάς» (Διγενής Ακρίτας - Ζ3358). We find the same word in Aromanian and Albanian. It's even found in Slavic languages and translates as mane of a horse. Obviously Theodoros Buas - Grivas either took it as an epithet or possibly even as a result of intermarriage with one of a Grivas family. I know some authors have considered a relationship simply based on both sharing Γρίβας, but this is a stretch in my opinion. Anyway, Βουγιάτο seems to be unrelated because we find that as a surname in a number of Latin-speaking countries with many versions, and we do know Zakynthos was under Latin administration so nothing out of the ordinary.
https://forebears.io/surnames/buggiato
https://forebears.io/x/surnames/buggiatto
https://forebears.io/surnames/bugiato
https://forebears.io/surnames/bugiatto
https://forebears.io/x/surnames/boggiato
https://forebears.io/surnames/boggiatto

Anyway, we have diverged from the original topic for no serious reason since I-Y18331 is absent in Albanians. And please try to include everything in a single comment because this appears like spamming. You had to divide it in six?

There are no 16 Slavic members under I-Y18331. Those Slavic flags under I-Y23115 pertain to Ashkenazim Jewish members, who by the way are known to be a Mediterranean population autosomally and thus a south-to-north migration route is suggested. I gave a hypothesis in relation to them in this post,
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page61?p=603036&viewfull=1#post603036. Zielinski could very likely be of Ashkenazim Jewish origin as well if we consider the fact that many of the members are Jewish, the formation of I-Y23115 being 2100 ybp, and also the fact that Zielinski is a common Jewish name as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zieli%C5%84ski. We have given a number of hypotheses in regard to I-Y18331 and the path it took, in prior pages. I support the Bastarnae origin of the I-Y18331 clade, and of I-Y3120 in general. I can elaborate again if you want. In the context of Greece i also like what @Aspar mentions here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page62?p=610471&viewfull=1#post610471, which would pertain to either Slavicized Greeks bringing it to the Peloponnese or Greeks accompanying the Slavs to the Peloponnese especially when you consider the alliance that the Greeks from the Theme of Hellas seem to have had with the Slav archon Akameros.
 
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Now a simple question, where did went all those Arvanites\Albanian of Greece, what happened to them, from 42 % in the XV century they ended up at less than 15 % in the XIX century !?
read page 13 : https://www.academia.edu/25948006/The_Ottoman_Conquest_of_the_Morea_1387_1460_
If you read the Defter of Eubea year 1474 "Evangelia Balta: "L'Eubee a la fin du XV siècle, Economie et population, Les registres de l'année 1474" you will realize and observe a interesant phenomena, traditionally only the extreme south of Eubea is considered Arvanitic, in the Defter of 1474, we notice a great number of Albanians inhabiting the central and North of Eubea also, we recognize them by their Anthroponym\Patronym: Gjin, Gjon, Leka, Bardhi, Mengeshe, Shtini, Progon, Gjika, Trimi, Deda, Muzak, Floka, Mazi, Mazarak Manesh, Shurbi, Capoga, Malakas etc etc
My question is: where have they gone? how did they disappear? did they went in Italy? or did they return to their motherland Arbanon? A real "Mystery", can you help me solve this 'historical enigma'.
Have you ever heard the term Assimilation, gradual integration ??

They weren't albanians if they carried i2a-din, maybe albanian mother at best but then south slavs had been around the balkans for hundreds of years by this point so some of them may have become identified as "albanian" earlier. South slavs moved into Byzantine so that includes Albania and maybe become Arvanites this way. I find it strange how much south slavic y dna there is in Greece and South Albania compared to the small amount in North Albania which was also part of Byzantine and reiionally closer to South slavs

Maybe the Epirus region was more attractive/civilized during that era and allowed more "immigrants"?
 
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You also mention Evangelia Balta but you didn't disclose the page. First of all, these surnames are obviously a small minority among all of the surnames found in central and north Euboea, and if you give me the actual names as writen in Greek i will give you an approximate number of inhabitants that have them. But besides that the Arvanites of Euboea were concentrated in south-central/southern part of the island with their northernmost village being Αχλαδερή. Some of those surnames could and surely are traced to Arvanite ancestors, but that's not due to some settlement that got assimilated, but due to free movement. Similarly you will find countless of Greek surnames throughout the southern part where the Arvanite settlements are to be found. By the way, even the southern part wasn't completely Arvanite, since south-western Euboea had a cluster of Greek-speaking presence such as Karystos. Per the census of 1861 southern Euboea (without Karystos which was Greek-speaking) had 17,822 inhabitants in a total population of Euboea amounting to 58,777. Though based on a report of a study by the secretary of the Municipality of Karystos that is also mentioned in the book of Kostas Biris, the number of Arvanites in Euboea during the Ottoman period was some 10,000. Per Johann Georg von Hahn that i mentioned previously, in 1854 Euboea had 25,000 Arvanites in a total population of 72,368, therefore all these statistics compliment each other. As aforementioned free movement on the island can explain why you might have some of those surnames further north, and when you are surrounded by a larger majority it is natural for you to become assimilated. There was no secret plan of such assimilation, especially during a depend period under Ottoman rule.


North Euboea clearly had an Arvanite component earlier on:
Lisada - Northwestern Euboea:
Nikola Kostapetr, Aritidi Kostapetr, Manol Simos, Nikola Kara binar, Kiryako Karabinar, Cyano Karabinar, Yani Apostolo, Dimitri Kamarya, Nikola Kamarya, Nikola diger Kamarya, Mihal Karasuni, Manol Mavro, Yani Balusi, Yani Zinota, Yorgi Iskinari,* Nikola Vasilyor, Kosta Salusi, Kozma Salusi, Yorgi Salusi,

tetim me-i karye-i L i s a d a

Yorgi Salusi diger, Nikola Salusi diger, Yorgi Vasila, Yorgi Ivreto, Yani Ivreto, Kiryako Ivreto, Dimitri Ivreto, Nikola Ivreto, Luka Sayita, Yani Luka, Nikola Luka, Nikola Salvit, Manol Vasilikör, Kosta Vasilikor, Yorgi Makri, Istamad Makri, Nikola Makri, Yani Vlahoni, Yorgi Vasilinor, Istam ad Vasilinor, Kosta Agapito, Nikola Kamaki, Dimitri Kamaki, Yani Kamaki, Petro Kamaki, Dimitri Romaniti, Hristofor Romaniti, Aleksi Romaniti, Dimitri Arab,* Nikola Kamarana, Mihal Kamarana, Yorgi Rasula, Nikola Rasula, Dimitri Rasula, Gin damad-i Rasula, Nikola Krasos, Kostandin Krasos, Nikola Guri, Petro Guri, Istefan Palusi, Yani Kursari, Dimitri Kursari, Vasili Sarandi, Mihal Sarandi, Yorgi Kavaco, Dimitri Kacavo, Petro Kavaco, Todor Atlazi, Dimitri Atlazi, Aleksi Istasuli, Nikola Arcuras, p.* 147 Yorgi Istasuli, Istamad Lazomondas, Andriya Midali, Yorgi Kisaki, Nikola Kisaki, Dimitri Toto, Nikola Toti, Yani Sarandi, Yorgi Toto, Yorgi Morya, Yakomo Morya, Dimitri Morayit, Nikola Lalandari, Todor Lalandari, Istefan Lalandari, Yorgi Lalandari, Mihal Kukyopulo, Istamad Harikopulo. Yorgi Livada, Dimitri Livada, Yani Livada, Mihal Halkya, Yorgi Tramasi, Istamad Tumaniti, Yani Avloniti, Gini Agriyomat, Mihal Agriyomat, Yani Agriyimat, Yorgi Agriyomat, Petro Anastas, Hristodulo Kamaki, Manol Davikar, Nikola Kataduka, Istamad Ivreto, Apostoli Drako, Paraski Tomadya, Gini Landari, Kiryako Landari, Mihal Varas, Garuso Davas, Yani Mistros, Nikola Palyatura, Yani Palyatura, Dimitri Valkyoti, Dimitri Anastas, Dimitri Kursari, Yorgi Avlonit, Trogyos Kadikyopulo, Yani Harikyopulo, Andriya Balayot, Istamad Kalayot, Vlasi Gromyo, p.* 148 Petro Romana, Yani Crigar, Petro Balas, Manol Agramyot, Yorgi Agramyot, Nikola Saluti, Yani Karalasa, Papadimitri Kisaryo, Kosta Iksano, Istamad Maromat, Yorgi Nyaka, Todo Dugar, Manol Vavasi, Petro Akaras, Saro Dragumano, Katokuki Cikna, Muruzi Ihsalya, Kosta Mavasari, Potino Muvasa Iksida, Nikola Anastas, Yani Vatikyot, bîve Arhondo, bîve Sumalya, bîve Malalya, bîve tu Vasila, bîve tu Yakomo, bîve tu Simiyu, bîve Harulya.

https://satellites.pro/Lichada_map

I have severall other villages. And not all Arvanites carried Albanian names, some of them had Greek names too. I agree that Arvanites were self assimilated by their wish. I don't know about their actual percentage in the north but considering Arvanites in the south were not hellenized it is easy to see that their percentage was not the same in the south as in the north.
 
North Euboea clearly had an Arvanite component earlier on:
Lisada - Northwestern Euboea:
Nikola Kostapetr, Aritidi Kostapetr, Manol Simos, Nikola Kara binar, Kiryako Karabinar, Cyano Karabinar, Yani Apostolo, Dimitri Kamarya, Nikola Kamarya, Nikola diger Kamarya, Mihal Karasuni, Manol Mavro, Yani Balusi, Yani Zinota, Yorgi Iskinari,* Nikola Vasilyor, Kosta Salusi, Kozma Salusi, Yorgi Salusi,

tetim me-i karye-i L i s a d a

Yorgi Salusi diger, Nikola Salusi diger, Yorgi Vasila, Yorgi Ivreto, Yani Ivreto, Kiryako Ivreto, Dimitri Ivreto, Nikola Ivreto, Luka Sayita, Yani Luka, Nikola Luka, Nikola Salvit, Manol Vasilikör, Kosta Vasilikor, Yorgi Makri, Istamad Makri, Nikola Makri, Yani Vlahoni, Yorgi Vasilinor, Istam ad Vasilinor, Kosta Agapito, Nikola Kamaki, Dimitri Kamaki, Yani Kamaki, Petro Kamaki, Dimitri Romaniti, Hristofor Romaniti, Aleksi Romaniti, Dimitri Arab,* Nikola Kamarana, Mihal Kamarana, Yorgi Rasula, Nikola Rasula, Dimitri Rasula, Gin damad-i Rasula, Nikola Krasos, Kostandin Krasos, Nikola Guri, Petro Guri, Istefan Palusi, Yani Kursari, Dimitri Kursari, Vasili Sarandi, Mihal Sarandi, Yorgi Kavaco, Dimitri Kacavo, Petro Kavaco, Todor Atlazi, Dimitri Atlazi, Aleksi Istasuli, Nikola Arcuras, p.* 147 Yorgi Istasuli, Istamad Lazomondas, Andriya Midali, Yorgi Kisaki, Nikola Kisaki, Dimitri Toto, Nikola Toti, Yani Sarandi, Yorgi Toto, Yorgi Morya, Yakomo Morya, Dimitri Morayit, Nikola Lalandari, Todor Lalandari, Istefan Lalandari, Yorgi Lalandari, Mihal Kukyopulo, Istamad Harikopulo. Yorgi Livada, Dimitri Livada, Yani Livada, Mihal Halkya, Yorgi Tramasi, Istamad Tumaniti, Yani Avloniti, Gini Agriyomat, Mihal Agriyomat, Yani Agriyimat, Yorgi Agriyomat, Petro Anastas, Hristodulo Kamaki, Manol Davikar, Nikola Kataduka, Istamad Ivreto, Apostoli Drako, Paraski Tomadya, Gini Landari, Kiryako Landari, Mihal Varas, Garuso Davas, Yani Mistros, Nikola Palyatura, Yani Palyatura, Dimitri Valkyoti, Dimitri Anastas, Dimitri Kursari, Yorgi Avlonit, Trogyos Kadikyopulo, Yani Harikyopulo, Andriya Balayot, Istamad Kalayot, Vlasi Gromyo, p.* 148 Petro Romana, Yani Crigar, Petro Balas, Manol Agramyot, Yorgi Agramyot, Nikola Saluti, Yani Karalasa, Papadimitri Kisaryo, Kosta Iksano, Istamad Maromat, Yorgi Nyaka, Todo Dugar, Manol Vavasi, Petro Akaras, Saro Dragumano, Katokuki Cikna, Muruzi Ihsalya, Kosta Mavasari, Potino Muvasa Iksida, Nikola Anastas, Yani Vatikyot, bîve Arhondo, bîve Sumalya, bîve Malalya, bîve tu Vasila, bîve tu Yakomo, bîve tu Simiyu, bîve Harulya.

https://satellites.pro/Lichada_map

I have severall other villages. And not all Arvanites carried Albanian names, some of them had Greek names too. I agree that Arvanites were self assimilated by their wish. I don't know about their actual percentage in the north but considering Arvanites in the south were not hellenized it is easy to see that their percentage was not the same in the south as in the north.
Lichada is a settlement with a name that is traced to Greek antiquity. It comes from Heracle's servant Lichas, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichas, which is also responsible for the local mountain Lichas and the neighboring 7 islands Lichades, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichades. It wasn't an Albanian settlement, let alone earlier on since this image is dated to 1807 which is contemporary to the aforementioned censuses. I don't know from which source these name are taken but they were obviously written differently. If you know the source i would like to go through it. As they are written now it is difficult to make sense of most, but of the ones you have boldened, "Kursari" looks like the Greek word κουρσάρος (koursaros), which is etymologically traced to Italian corsaro and it means pirate. As for the Arvanite looking ones, as aforementioned Arvanites would move freely throughout the island, but the settlements at the northern side were Greek that's why they weren't classified as Arvanite. Greek names suggest Greek origin, same as Arvanite names suggest Arvanite origin. This isn't absolute, but suggestive and both can be found in the north and in the south likewise.
 
"Kursari" looks like the Greek word κουρσάρος (koursaros), which is etymologically traced to Italian corsaro and it means pirate. As for the Arvanite looking ones, as aforementioned Arvanites would move freely throughout the island, but the settlements at the northern side were Greek that's why they weren't classified as Arvanite. Greek names suggest Greek origin, same as Arvanite names suggest Arvanite origin. This isn't absolute, but suggestive and both can be found in the north and in the south likewise.
I deleted the former text in your reply because it is not relevant.

Makri and Kusari can be both Albanian and Greek. Both names still exists among the Albanian and Greek populations.

This defter is counting households thus most were permanent settlements.
 
They weren't albanians if they carried i2a-din, maybe albanian mother at best but then south slavs had been around the balkans for hundreds of years by this point so some of them may have become identified as "albanian" earlier. South slavs moved into Byzantine so that includes Albania and maybe become Arvanites this way. I find it strange how much south slavic y dna there is in Greece and South Albania compared to the tiny amount in North Albania which was also part of Byzantine
Maybe the Epirus region was more attractive/civilized during that era and allowed more "immigrants"?
That is also evident via the toponymes, with the south having a larger concentration compared to the north. For example look at the following map, with the red dots representing Slavic toponymes, https://smerdaleos.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/albslav-toponyms.png. Obviously earlier Slavic/Bulgarian kingdoms can explain that, but i also believe that Via Egnatia road had some role as well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Egnatia. As Albanians would begin their southward migrations it is only natural that some would be assimilated, hence the difference in patrilineal frequencies between north and south as observed in this following list, http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/.
 
I deleted the former text in your reply because it is not relevant.

Makri and Kusari can be both Albanian and Greek. Both names still exists among the Albanian and Greek populations.

This defter is counting households thus most were permanent settlements.
I agree that is not relevant, and i would rather focus on I-Y3120 and I-Y18331.
 
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They weren't albanians if they carried i2a-din, maybe albanian mother at best but then south slavs had been around the balkans for hundreds of years by this point so some of them may have become identified as "albanian" earlier. South slavs moved into Byzantine so that includes Albania and maybe become Arvanites this way. I find it strange how much south slavic y dna there is in Greece and South Albania compared to the small amount in North Albania which was also part of Byzantine and reiionally closer to South slavs
Maybe the Epirus region was more attractive/civilized during that era and allowed more "immigrants"?

I think its incorrect to make broad generalized statements on people's identity based on haplogroups. The more correct statement would be that I2a-Din is not Proto-Albanian or Illyrian.

It does of course get tricky pinning down a cluster that can define an Albanian identity/ancestor. Though, I2a-Din, R1a and even some other even more less common haplogroups entered between late antiquity and the early medieval and were certainly assimilated to some degree long before these migrations took place.


By the time Arvanites/Albanians were migrating to Greece, some I2a/R1a was already in the region for 500-1000 years. To assume some branches, Slavic or otherwise didn't enter the late proto Albanian phase of ethnogenesis and was somehow all "recent" as if Albanians were solely made up of 3 haplogroups is false.


The Arbereshe already had a number of invader lineages with them when they migrated. I doubt they were "slavs hitching a ride".


I2a/R1a is not well defined/sequenced amongst Albanians. The very few Albanians in I2a-Din currently on Yfull don't have any recent matches with other South Slavs for 1450-1550ybp. Until they get matches forming a cluster with Albanians or other South Slavs, it seems their common ancestors are in the early middle ages.


Most R1a/I2a in both projects are general assignments. Only WGS/SNP testing can distinguish what may he recently assimilated or distantly assimilated.

Also, we may now have one from Diber that could belong to the 'Greek' I-Y3120 cluster. Though its not certain. Even in Kosova, we have a few samples from Prizren that were from Albanian regions of Opoja that were I-Y3120.
 
Ok

I still do not understand the meaning of this attack by someone,
Who plays it smart, but only creates Impressions,

He wants to tell us what?
that Arbanites existed in Helladic space before 1821? that is well known,
or whatever else propaganda etc?
Mixing Aromanian and Turkish words used as names due to job etc PROVES NOTHING

for example surname Baltas may mean the one who lives on swamps
as also the butcher blade carrier/user

Balta (Ottoman Turkish word,)

large_20200925103824_berkis_mpaltas_tsatira_33cm.jpeg




I remind you we have gone away from thread.

and still some continue the 'war of impressions' just exactly what a propagandist want.
 

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