How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Yetos]

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

I said your statement takes away illyrian continuity, and it does, if continue believe it,
watch carefuuly what you state and said,

 

[Ike]

Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

That's consistent with Dacian hypothesis, also supported by Kaplan Burovich.

 

[kamani]

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia.

Let's not get too broad, the opponents are just the ultra-nationalist groups in Serbia and Greece.

 

[gyms]

http://books.google.se/books?id=RM6...U#v=onepage&q=the origin of romanians&f=false

by Lucian Boia

 

[Yetos]

It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

what the poor Greeks done you?
When you state clear about the GetoDacian connectivity,
What is next? are you gonna tell us that geto-Thracians were Illyrians?

it is MEA CULPA, to your other posts.

 

[Sile]

That's consistent with Dacian hypothesis, also supported by Kaplan Burovich.

that hypothesis fits exactly with the true origin of thracians is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
the romanains are dacians.....................but with your map and this one.......are dacians also thracians?,

 

[Yetos]

Let's not get too broad, the opponents are just the ultra-nationalist groups in Serbia and Greece.

What opponent? who is extra nationalist?

the only extra nationalist here I see is you,

When told that Albanians are Getto-Thracians somehere revolt and said Illyrian,
Now I see that also claim Geto-Thracian,
What is next by my EXTRA NATIONALIST NEIGHBORS?

GETO THRACIANS WERE ILLYRIANS? OR ILLYRIANS WERE GETO-THRACIANS?

I KNOW you follow the other one,
STARTING OF ALL IS YOUR HOMELAND RIGHT?

 

[kamani]

What opponent? who is extra nationalist?

the only extra nationalist here I see is you,

When told that Albanians are Getto-Thracians somehere revolt and said Illyrian,
Now I see that also claim Geto-Thracian,
What is next by my EXTRA NATIONALIST NEIGHBORS?

GETO THRACIANS WERE ILLYRIANS? OR ILLYRIANS WERE GETO-THRACIANS?

I KNOW you follow the other one,
STARTING OF ALL IS YOUR HOMELAND RIGHT?

when I said ultra-nationalists, I wasn't talking about you. You just need a doctor, lol.

 

[Yetos]

when I said ultra-nationalists, I wasn't talking about you. You just need a doctor, lol.

Yes indeed, after so many years hearing you surely I need one,

I wonder when was your last visit, maybe your medicine treatment does not work

 

[LeBrok]

Please guys, keep it cool. Let's keep doctors away from this thread.

 

[Ike]

that hypothesis fits exactly with the true origin of thracians is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
the romanains are dacians.....................but with your map and this one.......are dacians also thracians?,

I think that Danube was natural border between Thracians and Dacians, and on the map I've linked in previous post is encircled the formation territory of Romanian people. That may have been Dacians in major, but may have also included many other partly Latinized tribes of Thracian, Moesian and different origin, who were involved in formation of Romanian language and nation. I suppose that map was not drawn precisely, cause no precise data are even available, and it was more oriented on trying to explain (and assume) the position of Albanian speaking groups.

 

[Pirro]

Dear Zanipolo, did You Know any so called ancient greek tribue amed `hellas`? Do You know then name Hellen is from Helene. Helen have i albanian language significance of e lene, e braktisur- or in english- cast women, forlorn women. So,, why are you lying about ancient greece, when in that time all ancient tribues have been pelasgic-illyrian? Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..

 

[Ike]

Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..

Which could also mean that a lot of Albanian cultural and linguistic heritage comes from Greeks...

 

[clintCG]

Hello,
I must revive this thread because about few pages before I saw some talk about Gothic theory, and most did seem to agree that spread of I2a2 Dinaric fits perfectly in Gothic migrations, but were highly sceptical because they didn't have enough of evidence that ex-Yugoslavians are of Gothic origin- but read this post closely and you will find that Gothic theory of I2a Din is more than plausible.
I will start with first literary work among Yugoslavians, it is called "Chronicles of Priests of Duklja". From beginning it tells about two Gothic brothers, Totila and Ostroyllus. Totila conquers Italy, while Ostroyllus rules over Roman provinces Dalmatia (Bosnia and Croatia) and his capital is in Prevalis (Montenegro). He sent his son with most of army to conquer remaining of Panonia while he remained in Prevalis. Army of Byzantines came and pillaged his lands. When Senudial, son of Ostroyllus heard that he returns from Panonia to avenge father's death but he finds no Byzantines in Prevalis. From then on it talks about Gothic rulers and how they are ancestors of medieval Croat and Montenegrin rulers and people.
Don't forget that before that there were more migrations of Goths to this area: first one was in 370's when Goths fled from Huns to Balkans.

Dr. Rus in Ljubljana in 1914 even mentions migration of slavicized Goths from Vistula in 7th century to Balkans.
It is worth saying that in interwar period German historians Ludwig Glumpowitz and L. Hauptmann regarder Gothic origin of us as correct.

Not only Priest of Duklja but also Thomas the Archdeacon of Split in his "Historia Salonitana" in 13th century also writes about our Gothic origin, and about same Gothic migrations.

Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo writes about one mission of Neretvians in Venetia in 830. : "...Quia a Gothis originem traxerunt", which means "...which are descended from Goths".


Montenegrin town of Niksic was founded by Goths in 6th century. Our original name of that town in Onogosht, which is derived from Germanic name Anegast. At Skadar Gothic coins and buckles were found. Some linguists think that nearby clan of Hoti has some connection to Goths.
In Budva, too, Gothic material remnants were found, and also in early Christian basillica near Bijelo Polje where Gothic buckles and traces of destruction were found. Material remnants of Goths are also found all over Croatia and Bosnia.
Early christian basillica in Breza, Bosnia, is particularly interesting because there was found stone pillar with Gothic runic inscription.


And now about Gothic toponyms. Here are some from Bosnia and Montenegro, from book of Croatian historian Ivan Mužić: Onogošt, Ostrog, Gacko (also clan Gačani), Vareš, Hrgud, Brotnjo, Hardomilje, Argud, Otilovci, Konogovo, Gudelji... there are more of them which I don't remember.

Now let's look at Gothic remains in our languages. Our language, except for Scandinavian ones and Estonian, is only in Europe with pitch accent, and since Goths originate in Scandinavia it is very possible they brought it. There are also many Gothic words in our language, sadly many of them were removed during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Here are some:

stijena-stains (Gothic): rock, brijeg-bjarg (Old Norse): hill, saian-sijati (Gothic): to sow, plaisan-plesati (Gothic): to dance, volja-vilja (Gothic): will, smokva-smakka (Gothic): fig, svrbjeti-swairban (Gothic): to itch, vrijedan-wairthan (Gothic): worthy, vještica-weihitha (Gothic): witch, stvoriti-stiurjan (Gothic): to create, trnje-thaurna (Gothic): thorns, wopjan-vapiti (Gothic): to cry out for help, svekrva/svekar-swaihra (Gothic): mother/father in-law, nećak-nithjus (Gothici): nephew, hrpa-haupaz (proto-Germanic): pile; bunch, ljekar-lekeis (Gothic): healer;doctor, frizura/češljanje-frisiaz (Gothic): hairstyle, bljesak-blason (proto-Germanic): blaze etc etc... There are over 1000 Gothic words in Chakavian dialect gathered by Croatian historian Mihovil Lovrić.

Now one interesting thing is connection between official religion of Bogomilism in medieval Bosnia and Arian heresy of the Goths. Gregor Cremosnik in 1937 is first historian to claim connection between Bogomilism and Arian heresy, because Bogomilism only appears there where Goths settled. It is interesting that popes often called Bosnians "arian heretics".

Stanko Guldescu:
"Both Tvrtko and Stjepan Tomašević (King Stephen of Bosnia) placed curiously ornate Gothic letters beneath the Bosnian crown and coat of arms. On many shileds found in Bosnia, and which antedate Muslim conquest, the typical device represented is that of moon and star, the design which appears on shield of Theodoric and other Ostrogothic kings, as well as on the mossaics that date from period of Ostrogothic rule at Ravenna. Also there is to be found on many of the oldest Bosnian gravestones (stećci) shields with this same device which was so popular among Ostrogoths. The German consul in Sarajevo in the last century was inspired by the noted historian, Theodor Mommsen, to undertake a study of Bosnian antiquities. He deduced a definite connection between strange-appearing Bosnian tombstones (stećci) and the Ostrogoths who ruled the area..."

I can also say that Slavs are most likely to have settled in parts of country fertile for agriculture, that is, in northern parts of Yugoslavia, while southern parts, in which I2a Din is more frequent was settled with Goths. Agriculture is EVERYTHING for Slavs. But in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro it is contrary. French general Viala de Somier, when he visited Montenegro in 1820 observed that population has very limited use of farming, that men leave hardest agricultural works to women while their only duty is war, raiding and herding cattle.

I will also mention anthropological research. According to Priest of Duklja, core of Goths resided in Prevalis (Montenegro).
In 1939 book "The Races of Europe" Carleton Coon lists Montenegrins as tallest and heaviest men in Europe, and finds out that most of them belong to Borreby subrace, which is most numerous in northern Germany and western Norway.

I hope that I shed some light on this interesting subject. I had a LOT of links and pictures to share with you but unfortunately I can't since I don't have 10 posts yet.

 

[Sile]

Hello,
I must revive this thread because about few pages before I saw some talk about Gothic theory, and most did seem to agree that spread of I2a2 Dinaric fits perfectly in Gothic migrations, but were highly sceptical because they didn't have enough of evidence that ex-Yugoslavians are of Gothic origin- but read this post closely and you will find that Gothic theory of I2a Din is more than plausible.
I will start with first literary work among Yugoslavians, it is called "Chronicles of Priests of Duklja". From beginning it tells about two Gothic brothers, Totila and Ostroyllus. Totila conquers Italy, while Ostroyllus rules over Roman provinces Dalmatia (Bosnia and Croatia) and his capital is in Prevalis (Montenegro). He sent his son with most of army to conquer remaining of Panonia while he remained in Prevalis. Army of Byzantines came and pillaged his lands. When Senudial, son of Ostroyllus heard that he returns from Panonia to avenge father's death but he finds no Byzantines in Prevalis. From then on it talks about Gothic rulers and how they are ancestors of medieval Croat and Montenegrin rulers and people.
Don't forget that before that there were more migrations of Goths to this area: first one was in 370's when Goths fled from Huns to Balkans.

Dr. Rus in Ljubljana in 1914 even mentions migration of slavicized Goths from Vistula in 7th century to Balkans.
It is worth saying that in interwar period German historians Ludwig Glumpowitz and L. Hauptmann regarder Gothic origin of us as correct.

Not only Priest of Duklja but also Thomas the Archdeacon of Split in his "Historia Salonitana" in 13th century also writes about our Gothic origin, and about same Gothic migrations.

Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo writes about one mission of Neretvians in Venetia in 830. : "...Quia a Gothis originem traxerunt", which means "...which are descended from Goths".


Montenegrin town of Niksic was founded by Goths in 6th century. Our original name of that town in Onogosht, which is derived from Germanic name Anegast. At Skadar Gothic coins and buckles were found. Some linguists think that nearby clan of Hoti has some connection to Goths.
In Budva, too, Gothic material remnants were found, and also in early Christian basillica near Bijelo Polje where Gothic buckles and traces of destruction were found. Material remnants of Goths are also found all over Croatia and Bosnia.
Early christian basillica in Breza, Bosnia, is particularly interesting because there was found stone pillar with Gothic runic inscription.


And now about Gothic toponyms. Here are some from Bosnia and Montenegro, from book of Croatian historian Ivan Mužić: Onogošt, Ostrog, Gacko (also clan Gačani), Vareš, Hrgud, Brotnjo, Hardomilje, Argud, Otilovci, Konogovo, Gudelji... there are more of them which I don't remember.

Now let's look at Gothic remains in our languages. Our language, except for Scandinavian ones and Estonian, is only in Europe with pitch accent, and since Goths originate in Scandinavia it is very possible they brought it. There are also many Gothic words in our language, sadly many of them were removed during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Here are some:

stijena-stains (Gothic): rock, brijeg-bjarg (Old Norse): hill, saian-sijati (Gothic): to sow, plaisan-plesati (Gothic): to dance, volja-vilja (Gothic): will, smokva-smakka (Gothic): fig, svrbjeti-swairban (Gothic): to itch, vrijedan-wairthan (Gothic): worthy, vještica-weihitha (Gothic): witch, stvoriti-stiurjan (Gothic): to create, trnje-thaurna (Gothic): thorns, wopjan-vapiti (Gothic): to cry out for help, svekrva/svekar-swaihra (Gothic): mother/father in-law, nećak-nithjus (Gothici): nephew, hrpa-haupaz (proto-Germanic): pile; bunch, ljekar-lekeis (Gothic): healer;doctor, frizura/češljanje-frisiaz (Gothic): hairstyle, bljesak-blason (proto-Germanic): blaze etc etc... There are over 1000 Gothic words in Chakavian dialect gathered by Croatian historian Mihovil Lovrić.

Now one interesting thing is connection between official religion of Bogomilism in medieval Bosnia and Arian heresy of the Goths. Gregor Cremosnik in 1937 is first historian to claim connection between Bogomilism and Arian heresy, because Bogomilism only appears there where Goths settled. It is interesting that popes often called Bosnians "arian heretics".

Stanko Guldescu:
"Both Tvrtko and Stjepan Tomašević (King Stephen of Bosnia) placed curiously ornate Gothic letters beneath the Bosnian crown and coat of arms. On many shileds found in Bosnia, and which antedate Muslim conquest, the typical device represented is that of moon and star, the design which appears on shield of Theodoric and other Ostrogothic kings, as well as on the mossaics that date from period of Ostrogothic rule at Ravenna. Also there is to be found on many of the oldest Bosnian gravestones (stećci) shields with this same device which was so popular among Ostrogoths. The German consul in Sarajevo in the last century was inspired by the noted historian, Theodor Mommsen, to undertake a study of Bosnian antiquities. He deduced a definite connection between strange-appearing Bosnian tombstones (stećci) and the Ostrogoths who ruled the area..."

I can also say that Slavs are most likely to have settled in parts of country fertile for agriculture, that is, in northern parts of Yugoslavia, while southern parts, in which I2a Din is more frequent was settled with Goths. Agriculture is EVERYTHING for Slavs. But in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro it is contrary. French general Viala de Somier, when he visited Montenegro in 1820 observed that population has very limited use of farming, that men leave hardest agricultural works to women while their only duty is war, raiding and herding cattle.

I will also mention anthropological research. According to Priest of Duklja, core of Goths resided in Prevalis (Montenegro).
In 1939 book "The Races of Europe" Carleton Coon lists Montenegrins as tallest and heaviest men in Europe, and finds out that most of them belong to Borreby subrace, which is most numerous in northern Germany and western Norway.

I hope that I shed some light on this interesting subject. I had a LOT of links and pictures to share with you but unfortunately I can't since I don't have 10 posts yet.

Its good that the slavs learnt some gothic language after the arrived in old yugoslavia....it was gothic land for 200 years

 

[clintCG]

I already explained what our medieval sources say. It was easy for Goths to accept Slavic language because they saw an ally in Slavs that they could use to get rid of Byzantines. Now think about this: if we have I2a Din wouldn't it be logical that Slavs brought more R1a? Only explanation is that they came here and then Goths impregnated their women, but it doesn't make much sense
And if I2a Din is not Gothic, then where should we search for Gothic haplogroup in us? I'm pretty sure they weren't I1, because most of I1 here is P109, and has strange value of STR481=0. Man on Sicily was found with that same value, and Nordtvedt thinks he has common ancestor in last 900 years with our I1's, so it must be Normans of Robert Guiscar (our king married his daughter) brought it, not Goths. Prehistoric continuity theory is outdated anyways, so I see only potential carriers in Goths, and also Bastarnae maybe...

 

[hrvat22]

For now it is known that I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 haplotype which have most Croatians and probably Montenegrins comes from White Croatia or southern Poland...

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html



I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a1Z16971
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a2Y4882
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204 is ancestor of our I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

so far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460


How much Goths have with White Croatians should be seen ...


Maybe they were Goths who lived in a White Croatia and then in alliance with the Slavs together as Croatians come to the Balkan....who later begin to splits and become other nations....

This is the only logic based on y haplotypes if they ever were Goths...

 

[arvistro]

Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic?
Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.

 

[hrvat22]

From their original homeland in southern Sweden Goths are in the middle of the first century. BC. Cr. switch to the area around the lower Vistula...

If this is true indeed some Goths came to the area of White Croatia...

It is possible that over there in the southern Poland ancestors of Croats lived under the Goths or in alliance...

Far as I know I2a type of haplotype which Croats have do not come from south Sweden to south Poland...Maybe someone knows differently and denied me ... it would mean that I2a could not be Gothic...

 

[hrvat22]

Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic?
Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.

Prof.Mihovil Lovrić

has published abundant linguistic heritage of nearly a thousand Gothic and early Germanic words still preserved in our Croatian Chakavian dialect....


That's all I know about Gothic in Croatian language... which are these Gothic words and they similarities to other Slavic languages I do not know in detail...