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Thread: Are some countries doomed to high unemployment due to their genetic pool ?

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    [QUOTE=ProudTraitor;390353]First of all the idea that individualist/collectivist tendecies are genetically determined is totally ridiculous. It's obviously determined by culture, values and one's life experiences.

    QUOTE]

    I totally agree.
    I strongly suggest reading (or get trained for that matter) on Spiral Dynamics, or better read the "Never Ending Quest", the originial (saved) work of Clare W. Graves. It is the most comprehensive, logical and scientific bio-psycho-social approach of human(s) development.
    From the Spiral Dynamics point of view German society actualy is in a "blue" system which is a collective one "WE" combined with the "orange" which is "I" entreprenurial. There are no pure entreprenurial genes and less entreprenurial genes. In the Hitler time the German society was on its peak "blue" system.

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    What is ridiculous is to claim no genetic influence on our cultures.
    Start thinking basic, no genes, no humans, no culture. Why dogs don't speak to communicate, because nobody taught them to, right?

    Things like collectivism and individualism are extremely hard, and always will be, to evaluate in genetic equations. Possibility of hundreds of genes influencing these traits makes this case difficult, but it doesn't negate genetic predispositions. On contrary, all we know about genetics tells us that they influence almost everything in our lives. They even explain why some people go against main stream culture. For example, why some people don't believe in god, or why some are gay in spite of strong social pressures. And yes, here is a news for some of us, even the devil originates in our genes, lol. (but name of a devil is cultural for a change).


    We have already evidence of cultural trends being directed by genes, especially in case of single genes, which are easy to decipher.
    Central Europe is dairy oriented capital of the world. It has a deep culture of milk drinking, cheese eating people. This is only place on this planet where on can find milk bars/restaurants.
    Do you think, that this strong behaviour comes from free choice, or is overwhelmingly cultural in nature? You could be wrong on two counts, if you do.
    It all comes to genetic mutation that enabled Europeans (maybe originally IE) to digest cows milk and it's byproducts. This innovation unleashed extra calories and gave an edge to our ancestors. Now we call it lactose tolerance.
    In contrast, east Asians are 99% lactose intolerant, and for that reason, their culture doesn't include milk drinking and cheese eating. They have to settle for less caloric tofu and soya "milk". It is strongly influenced by genetics, and not by a choice of wise Chinese preferring healthy tofu and soya, over unhealthy milk and cheese.

    I'm pretty sure, it is a matter of time, when we would be able just looking at someone genome, to determine if a person will be more individualistic or social.

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    Nobody is predestined to eat dairy food, we all have certain human genes but how we turn out it depends on our life conditions which is our programing. Read "Virus of the mind" a wonderful book, if you do not want to read Dawkins.

    In the table below are the systems that are at work among humans according to Graves and SD. However these are very rough description since each human now has more than three systems in him/herself at work, plus there are entering phase, peak phase, exiting phase. And people or societies can be centralized in one system more then another, but the healthy system is the one that is openned, while we have arrested societies or people in one system or worse those that are blocked and cannot change, these people or societies are unable to adapt to changing life conditions. Below are the coping systems that we use in our everyday life. What applies for one person applies for the group of people as well as the nations. Here are the systems at work according to SD:

    LIFE CONDITIONS BRAIN/MIND
    COPING CAPACITIES
    A State of nature and biological urges and drives: physical senses dictate the state of being.
    BEIGE
    N Instinctive: as natural instincts and reflexes direct; automatic existence.
    B Threatening and full of mysterious powers and spirit beings that must be placated and appeased.
    PURPLE
    O Animistic: according to tradition and ritual ways of group: tribal; animistic.
    C Like a jungle where the tough and strong prevail, the weak serve; nature is an adversary to be conquered.
    RED
    P Egocentric: asserting self for dominance, conquest and power. Exploitive; egocentric.
    D Controlled by a Higher Power that punishes evil and eventually rewards good works and righteous living.
    BLUE
    Q Absolutistic: obediently as higher authority and rules direct; conforming; guilt.
    E Full of resources to develop and opportunities to make things better and bring prosperity.
    ORANGE
    R Muitiplistic: pragmatically to achieve results and get ahead; test options; maneuver
    F The habitat wherein humanity can find love and purposes through affiliation and sharing.
    GREEN
    S Relativistic; respond to human needs; affiliative; situational; consensual; fluid.
    G A chaotic organism where change is the norm and uncertainty an acceptable state of being.
    YELLOW
    T Systemic: functional; integrative; interdependent; existential; flexible; questioning; accepting.
    H A delicately balanced system of interlocking forces in jeopardy at humanity’s hands; chaordic.
    TURQUOISE
    U Holistic: experiential: transpersonal; collective consciousness; collaborative; interconnected.

    We all need to learn and understand in order to escape the judging out of our egos. The worst thing is the complex of superiority or inferiority which again has to do with our life programing, not our genes.

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    that one did not work. Here is the table again, hoep it works this time.

    LIFE CONDITIONS BRAIN/MIND
    COPING CAPACITIES
    A State of nature and biological urges and drives: physical senses dictate the state of being.
    BEIGE
    N Instinctive: as natural instincts and reflexes direct; automatic existence.
    B Threatening and full of mysterious powers and spirit beings that must be placated and appeased.
    PURPLE
    O Animistic: according to tradition and ritual ways of group: tribal; animistic.
    C Like a jungle where the tough and strong prevail, the weak serve; nature is an adversary to be conquered.
    RED
    P Egocentric: asserting self for dominance, conquest and power. Exploitive; egocentric.
    D Controlled by a Higher Power that punishes evil and eventually rewards good works and righteous living.
    BLUE
    Q Absolutistic: obediently as higher authority and rules direct; conforming; guilt.
    E Full of resources to develop and opportunities to make things better and bring prosperity.
    ORANGE
    R Muitiplistic: pragmatically to achieve results and get ahead; test options; maneuver
    F The habitat wherein humanity can find love and purposes through affiliation and sharing.
    GREEN
    S Relativistic; respond to human needs; affiliative; situational; consensual; fluid.
    G A chaotic organism where change is the norm and uncertainty an acceptable state of being.
    YELLOW
    T Systemic: functional; integrative; interdependent; existential; flexible; questioning; accepting.
    H A delicately balanced system of interlocking forces in jeopardy at humanity’s hands; chaordic.
    TURQUOISE
    U Holistic: experiential: transpersonal; collective consciousness; collaborative; interconnected.
    I Too soon to say, but should tend to be I-oriented; controlling, consolidating if the pattern holds.
    CORAL
    V Next neurological capacities. The theory is open-ended up to the limits of Homo sapiens' brain.
    The theory is open-ended, with the possibility of more systems ahead...

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    Nobody is predestined to eat dairy food, we all have certain human genes but how we turn out it depends on our life conditions which is our programing.
    Terms predestined or destiny won't lead us nowhere in understanding of our nature. Surely people with lactose tolerant gene can refuse to eat dairy products, and people with lactose intolerance can drink milk if they really want to, exercising free will. There are strong consequences though of such actions, which could be deemed unnatural or against destiny if you will. First person will limit his sources for extra calories, which was very vital for survival in the past, in times of constant hunger. The second person will get very limited benefits, or will get violently ill, depending on amount of lactose consumed.

    It's OK to be different and not in full control, it actually makes our lives rich and interesting. It doesn't mean we are lesser humans, and it doesn't mean we all shouldn't be equal in our rights or treatments. Acknowledging our differences is crucial in understanding roots of many problems, which in turn will help us to create the right solutions.
    Think of it as of personalized medicine, the medicine of the future. Even for the same sickness you will get different doses of medicine or even a different medication.
    Now, if we were only different because of life experience, doctors and scientists wouldn't be even talking about personalized medicine, why would they?

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    Regarding the cheese eating people and milk restaurants, you should come to Kosovo or Albanian restaurants in Skopje (Macedonia) and see how much cheese and dairy products are consumed, it is unbelievable. I always hate going to UK where they do not serve cheese(s) for breakfast and even when they do, it is not a proper cheese.

    Albanians always have to have "kos" (there is no English word for it, you know it as "Greek Yogurt") as a companion to our main dishes, drink diluted yogurt with pies (not as European pies), have starters with peppers in "mazë" (another word that cannot be translated in English but it is a sort of cheese made out of double cream) or "gjizë" (the closest is ricotta).

    When having problems with stomach and indigestion we usually have cheese (only local one) with bread and "kos" (thick delicious yogurt)! (there is much more that what I presented because dairy products are the basis of our cooking)

    Well considering this above, your claims about "a certain edge" become very interesting . It is quite funny for me actually since if an Albanian would be claiming what you are claiming everybody would hurry to call him an insane nationalist !

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What is ridiculous is to claim no genetic influence on our cultures.
    Start thinking basic, no genes, no humans, no culture. Why dogs don't speak to communicate, because nobody taught them to, right?

    Things like collectivism and individualism are extremely hard, and always will be, to evaluate in genetic equations. Possibility of hundreds of genes influencing these traits makes this case difficult, but it doesn't negate genetic predispositions. On contrary, all we know about genetics tells us that they influence almost everything in our lives. They even explain why some people go against main stream culture. For example, why some people don't believe in god, or why some are gay in spite of strong social pressures. And yes, here is a news for some of us, even the devil originates in our genes, lol. (but name of a devil is cultural for a change).


    We have already evidence of cultural trends being directed by genes, especially in case of single genes, which are easy to decipher.
    Central Europe is dairy oriented capital of the world. It has a deep culture of milk drinking, cheese eating people. This is only place on this planet where on can find milk bars/restaurants.
    Do you think, that this strong behaviour comes from free choice, or is overwhelmingly cultural in nature? You could be wrong on two counts, if you do.
    It all comes to genetic mutation that enabled Europeans (maybe originally IE) to digest cows milk and it's byproducts. This innovation unleashed extra calories and gave an edge to our ancestors. Now we call it lactose tolerance.
    In contrast, east Asians are 99% lactose intolerant, and for that reason, their culture doesn't include milk drinking and cheese eating. They have to settle for less caloric tofu and soya "milk". It is strongly influenced by genetics, and not by a choice of wise Chinese preferring healthy tofu and soya, over unhealthy milk and cheese.

    I'm pretty sure, it is a matter of time, when we would be able just looking at someone genome, to determine if a person will be more individualistic or social.
    Um I think it is between 90 to 94 percent. 99 percent sounds astonishingly high to me, I can't be one of the 1 percent East Asians out there who can consume cheese and yogurt everyday.



    桃李滿天下

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I agree. I've been always sensing that there is a strong genetic component how countries are governed, how people behave or how orderly institutions and businesses function in different countries.

    I have an observation about collectivism. It looks like it has a duel or split personality. Collectivism of southern countries is strong on personal level. People bond strongly, let's say very emotionally with people that they know, like family, villages, work places/ workers unions. They also have strong national identity, but it stops at identity. They mistrust governments, they don't want to pay taxes, and underground economy is rampant. On this level they strongly divide big social construct, like country or big business, between they and we. "We don't want to share with them, they always cheat and use us". But when family and friends come for a visit southern hospitality is unsurpassed.
    North Europe is different in this regard. People are more willing to pay taxes, people care more about common property, people are more willing to share wealth with all national we. North collectivism goes easily international giving to the whole world. On other hand, when guest and family come for a visit, you better bring your own food, lol.
    There was a great example of collectivism in Germany during this recession. When most businesses in the world were rushing to cut jobs, Germany's businesses, instead of letting unfortunate people go, decided to keep all workforce and cut everybody's working hours and salaries. That's collective sacrifice at it's best, and there wasn't much resistance from the work force to do so. It's all we, it was all for us.

    So, who is more collective, south or north? I guess we need to create sub groups for collectivism.
    I wrote personally about this subject and wanted to use the quote above, because it illustrates an important point. Germanics are very collectivist in that they consider the needs of the whole when giving. But when receiving they are individualistic. They don't feel weak in needing to constantly lean on a group, but are willing to give to the group. Also they simply don't mind working hard and working long hours without constantly being forced to actually work.

    Most non-European or extreme southern European groups are the opposite. They want to take from the group/community but not give anything back. When it comes time to reap the field they are all collectivist. When it comes time to plow the field they are all individualist.

    I do believe that southern european, ashkenazi and east asian societies are actually superior in that they feel a stronger sense of clannishness. They do a lot for their family, race etc. Whereas Germanics are like that cattle of the world. They do all the necessary work of bettering the world, always giving to others etc. often at their own expense. Now England for example is mired in debt, third world immigration (associated crime and economic stagnation) and the Germanic race soon faces extinction.

    Jewish communities seem to strike a good balance between the "giving" nature and also the "clannish" nature. They are more than willing to strike out in individual enterprise, to do for themselves, to debate and go against the grain of society and to challenge social conventions. At the same time they have a strong sense of family and ethnic loyalty. This is probably why they are more successful than Germanics or any other group on average.

    Also about the characterization that England and Netherlands had people who were adventurous and colonizing the world this is a bit wrong. Firstly there may be certain social factors involved in a historical time period. We would need to use many examples to really have an accurate picture rather than looking at one single event. Secondly, the largest immigration to the United States were Germans. Even in early centuries there were large numbers of German and Dutch as well as French. Eventually they simply absorbed the English culture.

    French fur trappers were the most bold. They were the first into a new wilderness and went where no one else would go. Of course their primary motivation was personal success. I'm not sure any other reason to take risks (English colonized the new world simply from a desire to travel? I don't think so- most of them wanted better opportunities or religious freedom).

    It would seem historically the French showed the most ability to go into dangerous areas, be the first to arrive into a new wilderness etc. The big difference was that the French brought almost only men. Then they often inter bred with natives or with the English. England primarily brought men as well, but in much larger portions brought families, women children etc. with the goal to create a colony. Thus over time the English bred mostly with other English in the early years. By contrast French, Spanish, Dutch etc. mostly inter bred with locals or went home for lack of women. This seemed to have more to do with the decisions of the national leaders. Spain relied more heavily on slave labor and natives rather than trying to establish spanish peasants to work the land.

    Also about genetics: genetics is ever changing and "drifting" with each generation. It's totally possible to change the genetics of any given group through selective pressures (which could be cultural or involve national laws etc.). So no group or nation is "doomed" by its genes. Eugenic processes could solve most problems as well genes interact with the environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    Um I think it is between 90 to 94 percent. 99 percent sounds astonishingly high to me, I can't be one of the 1 percent East Asians out there who can consume cheese and yogurt everyday.
    Well, even 1 percent of East Asians is 30 million people, so it is not that unlikely that you could be one of them. On top of it, if you're lactose intolerant it doesn't mean that you can't consume some dairy product. You can eat them but you can't digest lactose. Some people act violently like allergic reaction, some can hold food nicely even if they don't digest it.
    Real test would be to try drinking couple of glasses of fresh milk, full bodied milk straight from a cow, and see what happens.
    Funny thing is that even lactose tolerant people might not be able to hold fresh cow milk if they are not use to drinking it daily. If one is not used to certain foods, one is missing vital bacterial flora in one's guts. Without the right bacteria we can't digest food well and it can lead to diarrhea. With any diet change we have to increase new food slowly to makes sure bacterial flora has time to adjust to these changes.
    As with everything in life, it is not that straightforward as one could think. ;)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    I have an observation about collectivism. It looks like it has a duel or split personality. Collectivism of southern countries is strong on personal level. People bond strongly, let's say very emotionally with people that they know, like family, villages, work places/ workers unions. They also have strong national identity, but it stops at identity. They mistrust governments, they don't want to pay taxes, and underground economy is rampant. On this level they strongly divide big social construct, like country or big business, between they and we. "We don't want to share with them, they always cheat and use us". But when family and friends come for a visit southern hospitality is unsurpassed.
    North Europe is different in this regard. People are more willing to pay taxes, people care more about common property, people are more willing to share wealth with all national we. North collectivism goes easily international giving to the whole world. On other hand, when guest and family come for a visit, you better bring your own food, lol.
    There was a great example of collectivism in Germany during this recession. When most businesses in the world were rushing to cut jobs, Germany's businesses, instead of letting unfortunate people go, decided to keep all workforce and cut everybody's working hours and salaries. That's collective sacrifice at it's best, and there wasn't much resistance from the work force to do so. It's all we, it was all for us.
    Very true. Or take also the famous scandinavian sense for paying high taxes for the common social welfare.

    So, who is more collective, south or north? I guess we need to create sub groups for collectivism.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1rainman View Post
    I wrote personally about this subject and wanted to use the quote above, because it illustrates an important point. Germanics are very collectivist in that they consider the needs of the whole when giving. But when receiving they are individualistic. They don't feel weak in needing to constantly lean on a group, but are willing to give to the group. Also they simply don't mind working hard and working long hours without constantly being forced to actually work.

    Most non-European or extreme southern European groups are the opposite. They want to take from the group/community but not give anything back. When it comes time to reap the field they are all collectivist. When it comes time to plow the field they are all individualist.
    I very much agree to what you both say.
    I also already pointed out somewhere else in this forum that what is called "individualism" of northern countries refers only to individual DUTIES, but not to individual RIGHTS. For me that's ultra-collectivism since it is very beneficial for society/collective but very opressive for individuals. Thats why I reject the traditional collectivism/individualism dimension. Else, northern countries rather resemble Japan. But japanese society is considered collectivist. I think the reason for the economic success of northern countries and Japan is in their similarities (obedience and sense of duty), not their differences (detail vs. wholistic thinking etc.).

    Regarding south european "collectivism", they in fact care more directly about their individual integrity than north-euros. But as a result, personal ties to close family members emerge as a strategy to defend ones individuality. The turkish-german comedian Serdar Sumuncu once issued his personal amazement about the german unparticular desire to be part of any group (so-called "Vereinsmeierei"). I agree with him only partially and would add that in turkey on the other hand, the importance of family is strong. After all, I believe it has mostly to do with rural vs. urban lifestyle.

    For me there is only one way to be individualistic, and that is to be a neutral loner. That in turn means to avoid both, duties AND rights, since duties and rights are both collectivistic things.

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    What I have discovered about my American redneck/Germanic culture that was brought up to believe in is that it is highly maladaptive for the modern world. Perhaps it works when everybody else has that same Germanic sense of individualism, but it usually breaks apart in large cities and in modern communities which are highly diverse.

    When I would work at jobs I would do twice the work as everybody else yet get treated worse. Nobody valued me. Even the typical white American. Their main desire is for friendship, validation etc. things which I never cared about. In other words laugh and joke with the boss and co-workers, drink with them, go play golf with them yet be totally lazy and useless on the job is highly valued. Be the best worker in the entire company but don't talk to others and probably you lose your job.

    I find the "corporate culture" here to be inferior, yet we must adapt to reality. It applies in other ways. In urban environments "networks" are useful and having good networks is more important than actual personal intelligence or skill. It's not what you know or how smart you are that gets you ahead in life- it's WHO you know, who you are friends with.

    Most Germanics/Nordics have a difficult time grapsing this concept... so they become like the "cattle" of the world. They are always working hard, pulling the weight of the rest but with little benefit to themselves. Many of them get disgusted with the modern world because they totally lack in social skills (both culturally and perhaps genetically) so they are inclined to go live in a rural area where there is less competition, less need to network. Many of them dream of some past world where they could live as vikings and not need to compete with various networks and globalism.

    So I find this to be the achilles heel of most Northern Europeans. It is the main reason I strongly disagree with ideas of Nordic superiority. Sure they make great societies, sure they do all the hard work of bettering the world (that most won't do) but they only benefit from it in the short term.

    In Europe we see mostly Germanicized mediteranian racial types at the top of the food chain, as well as Ashkenazi Jews which are almost identical to Germanicized mediteranian types. Usually some German or Russian sceintist invents something, but it's the Jew who makes use of the invention and ends up profiting most from it. Or in other endeavors it's usually the Nordic plowing the field but again a Jew or non-Nordic Germanic actually getting most of the profits from this endeavor.

    Asians actually are a bit better adapted at networking. Yet only Japanese really share the same sense of strong duty, pride in work etc. Maybe Koreans as well. Chinese maybe a few creme of the crop feel this way, but most chinese have a similar "southern european" ethic.

    What I notice for example a lot of Chinese immigrants come to the United States and simply do everything possible to escape paying taxes, even though the country made them rich. They will cheat the system at every turn for personal gain. A sense of collective duty and lack of corruption probably factors a bit higher than I.Q. in national success. In I.Q. and the Wealth of Nations it was shown that statistically I.Q. and "corruption" could be averaged out and account for about 95% of a nation's wealth. The rest mostly was simply natural resources and population density. most of the world has this same "chinese" morality other than Northern Europeans and the far east asians.

    For Germanic society to survive they need to learn better social and networking skills as well as form more personal groups. We can say already that most of the "elites" know how to network otherwise they wouldn't stay on top long. Yet for me personally I never learned this. It's not part of the typical culture of most north europeans (other than more mediterianized ones like French).

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    I think the evolutionary reason for this is that "Nordics" evolved in a rural area in the far north. Until recently Northern Europe could not support large population density. In fact it wasn't until the 1500s that this happened (mostly when the potato came to Europe and some better farming techniques). There never was a need to network. With some technology gains and the introduction of resources from the new world, north europe was able to rise quickly. I see now it is falling quickly as well. In the long term it could be that southern europe is a bit better adapted in some ways (as well as East Asia). Or again we could say the Jewish element of Northern societies better adapted and thus re-engineering society in its own image eventually.

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    Interesting thread, i think about this subject all the time, both the cultural and genetic components. After my father being on social welfare after a few spinal surgeries (we're Australians of NW euro descent) it got me wondering about his inability to "come back" after such an injury and wondered whether it was factors of mental weakness or purely physical incapability. The only reason i contemplated was because i have fiercely independent and entrepreneurial attributes (even turning down a high paying, highly secure public service job because it conflicted with my beliefs). I researched down the male line as well, his father passed away young but the further you go back the more independant they were. Mostly farmers who were in business for themselves, my great-grandfather even being in business until the day he died.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rainman View Post
    What I have discovered about my American redneck/Germanic culture that was brought up to believe in is that it is highly maladaptive for the modern world. Perhaps it works when everybody else has that same Germanic sense of individualism, but it usually breaks apart in large cities and in modern communities which are highly diverse.

    When I would work at jobs I would do twice the work as everybody else yet get treated worse. Nobody valued me. Even the typical white American. Their main desire is for friendship, validation etc. things which I never cared about. In other words laugh and joke with the boss and co-workers, drink with them, go play golf with them yet be totally lazy and useless on the job is highly valued. Be the best worker in the entire company but don't talk to others and probably you lose your job.

    I find the "corporate culture" here to be inferior, yet we must adapt to reality. It applies in other ways. In urban environments "networks" are useful and having good networks is more important than actual personal intelligence or skill. It's not what you know or how smart you are that gets you ahead in life- it's WHO you know, who you are friends with.

    Most Germanics/Nordics have a difficult time grapsing this concept... so they become like the "cattle" of the world. They are always working hard, pulling the weight of the rest but with little benefit to themselves. Many of them get disgusted with the modern world because they totally lack in social skills (both culturally and perhaps genetically) so they are inclined to go live in a rural area where there is less competition, less need to network. Many of them dream of some past world where they could live as vikings and not need to compete with various networks and globalism.

    So I find this to be the achilles heel of most Northern Europeans. It is the main reason I strongly disagree with ideas of Nordic superiority. Sure they make great societies, sure they do all the hard work of bettering the world (that most won't do) but they only benefit from it in the short term.

    In Europe we see mostly Germanicized mediteranian racial types at the top of the food chain, as well as Ashkenazi Jews which are almost identical to Germanicized mediteranian types. Usually some German or Russian sceintist invents something, but it's the Jew who makes use of the invention and ends up profiting most from it. Or in other endeavors it's usually the Nordic plowing the field but again a Jew or non-Nordic Germanic actually getting most of the profits from this endeavor.

    Asians actually are a bit better adapted at networking. Yet only Japanese really share the same sense of strong duty, pride in work etc. Maybe Koreans as well. Chinese maybe a few creme of the crop feel this way, but most chinese have a similar "southern european" ethic.

    What I notice for example a lot of Chinese immigrants come to the United States and simply do everything possible to escape paying taxes, even though the country made them rich. They will cheat the system at every turn for personal gain. A sense of collective duty and lack of corruption probably factors a bit higher than I.Q. in national success. In I.Q. and the Wealth of Nations it was shown that statistically I.Q. and "corruption" could be averaged out and account for about 95% of a nation's wealth. The rest mostly was simply natural resources and population density. most of the world has this same "chinese" morality other than Northern Europeans and the far east asians.

    For Germanic society to survive they need to learn better social and networking skills as well as form more personal groups. We can say already that most of the "elites" know how to network otherwise they wouldn't stay on top long. Yet for me personally I never learned this. It's not part of the typical culture of most north europeans (other than more mediterianized ones like French).
    I agree so strongly with what you're saying, though there are a few exceptions like Warren Buffett/Charlie Munger team also Bill Gates who by today's corporate standards are very old fashioned and live frugally, relative to their immense wealth. Though, I totally understand where you're coming from and wholeheartedly agree.

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    Vae victis

    I do believe that southern european, ashkenazi and east asian societies are actually superior in that they feel a stronger sense of clannishness. They do a lot for their family, race etc. Whereas Germanics are like that cattle of the world. They do all the necessary work of bettering the world, always giving to others etc. often at their own expense. Now England for example is mired in debt, third world immigration (associated crime and economic stagnation) and the Germanic race soon faces extinction.
    Considering myself a Southern European, being of Corsican descent, I felt extremely interested when I read this thread, and I was delighted to see that some of you take our superiority for granted. I suppose I should fit in the Northern-italian paradigm, my mother being Frankish (both my grandmother and grandfather having very germanic surnames, one even meaning "son of Thor"). Therefore some of you may consider that I am some kind of mestizo, even though my father is also R1b.

    This "mixed heritage" also allows me to feel impartial, as I am both descended from northern and southern Europeans. Now, I will just be playing a game, and I hope no one will believe I am serious. Let's play "I am proud to be a Southern European and I despise all those savages from the North". To be able to play the game, I will have to to find several reasons and arguments that will help me strengthen my stance.

    First, let us have it at the Germans. The ancestors of these people destroyed classical civilization, sending us backwards several centuries, denying us access to a whole array of technologies that Southern Europeans would have had time to devise if they had not been enslaved, harassed, maimed and raped by Northern Europeans. After all, the steam engine was invented by the Greeks and these people even contrived a forerunner of the computer. I am not even talking about philosophy. The scientists found that several genes interacting with the Fox P2 gene ruling language were positively selected in European populations, but not in others. I bet they were selected in the agora, not in the Scandinavian marshes.

    Let us also keep in mind that the Germans are responsible for the eradication of the population with the highest mean IQ in the world, that is the Ashkenazi Jews. That is a very dysgenic trend, isn't it? I say: savages!

    From an evolutionary perspective, the German population is going to lose 15 million people between 2010 and 2050. This is due to the fact that Germans are individualists, not collectivists. Germans do not make children, because children are bothersome, and Germans do not like to be disturbed. Germans are self-centered and individualistic: that is why their economy is going to crumble in a few years when no one will be able to pay for all those parasites and retirees that Germany is going to be crowded with.

    Take a Germanic guy like that Breivik poor bastard. He wanted to save his "race", so he found nothing better to do than killing ethnic Swedish children to prove his point. Isn't there a blatant failing in that man's reasoning? Well, that is exactly what another Germanic did: Hitler. He did not make children and killed his own. Isn't there a trend to be observed there? The Germans are doomed because they are rabid individualists who are only able to worship a state figure, but cannot love a family or real human beings. That is too complex for them.

    A word about the "entrepreneurial Celts". The Irish, for instance, have one of the lowest IQs in Europe. They are universally known for their rashness, lack of planning, etc... Just read the Gallic Wars, and you will see that the Romans considered the Celts as very dim, to say the least. This gap in reasoning and the Celts' high tolerance to uncertainty allowed my careful ancestors, who liked certainty better, to enslave them and put them to good use. Actually, the Italians, southern Europeans, have one of the highest IQs in Europe.

    The English make more children than other Northern Europeans. Why is that so? Well, because the English, like the French, are a cultural and genetic crossbreed between Northern and Southern Europeans. They are much better at communicating their emotions than other Germanics, and their language is heavily influenced by southern European languages. They have more warmth in their hearts and they are ready to sacrifice their time and their money to welcome children in their homes. They plan for a future.

    Survival lies not in the economy, it lies in biology. Emotions are also carried by genes, and northern Europeans, like Neandertals, are lacking those. What differentiated us from the Neandertals was superior communication skills and the ability to relate to others. Northern Europeans are obviously lacking in those respects. That is why they will disappear.

    Happy Father's day to all the southern European scum on this board.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There is not a big genetic distance between French, English and German, so it is impossible that Nordics are genetically anti-social and individualistic. All differences in Europe are cultural and learned behaviors. Personally I find Nordics to be more simple and straight-forward that Southerners, but also more plain. But flavor and emotion is not always good in business and work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Nordics are genetically anti-social and individualistic.
    I wouldn't put it this way. They are more socially complacent though, germanics are. There is a difference between socially interactive as southerners are, and follow the crowd, or a leader, the northerners are. I'm still not sure what is the main cause, but I think it is the heightened emotional state of south Europe, in general.
    The southern europeans are the first to say I and My family, and the rest of society are They and government are They. Northern people are all We and will follow social and government regulations.

    Italians will tell "vaffanculo" to the cop, but try to find German doing so.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenid View Post

    This "mixed heritage" also allows me to feel impartial, as I am both descended from northern and southern Europeans. Now, I will just be playing a game, and I hope no one will believe I am serious. Let's play "I am proud to be a Southern European and I despise all those savages from the North". To be able to play the game, I will have to to find several reasons and arguments that will help me strengthen my stance.
    Sadly, so much of being impartial.

    First, let us have it at the Germans. The ancestors of these people destroyed classical civilization, sending us backwards several centuries, denying us access to a whole array of technologies that Southern Europeans would have had time to devise if they had not been enslaved, harassed, maimed and raped by Northern Europeans.
    Wowowo. Rome decline was long and happened through centuries. Don't blame Germans or Slavs conquering Roman Empire. It wasn't much left of Rome to counterbalance people movement from east and north, around 5th century. You'd be better blaming little ice age for failing crops, population decline for fall of Rome than attacks of savages. It was more of economic/climatic than geopopulation affair anyway.
    And yes, I'm also regretting that tribes of north were dumb enough and couldn't learn fast enough to sustain Roman achievements and science. Apparently, education of population takes time. Just don't blame them for fall of Rome. Rome was weak at the time that's why the uneducated and poor barbarians could succeed putting Rome down.


    After all, the steam engine was invented by the Greeks and these people even contrived a forerunner of the computer. I am not even talking about philosophy. The scientists found that several genes interacting with the Fox P2 gene ruling language were positively selected in European populations, but not in others. I bet they were selected in the agora, not in the Scandinavian marshes.
    At the end of the day it doesn't matter who invented what, it matters who can take the invitation to industrial scale, to bring invention and product to the masses.
    Who knows who invented the wheel, tamed the horse, or smelted iron. But we know that Indo Europeans introduced them on massive scale and thanks to this conquered whole Europe and half Asia.

    Let us also keep in mind that the Germans are responsible for the eradication of the population with the highest mean IQ in the world, that is the Ashkenazi Jews. That is a very dysgenic trend, isn't it? I say: savages!
    It's getting old. Ordinary Germans knew nothing about this (during the fact), except top natzy elite.

    From an evolutionary perspective, the German population is going to lose 15 million people between 2010 and 2050.
    It's only a prediction, not a fact. Please, use your impartial judgment.


    This is due to the fact that Germans are individualists, not collectivists.
    I think it is in reverse. Even the socialism/communism was working the best in DDR of all soviet block countries.

    Germans do not make children,
    I'm sure I've seen a german child. I think there is a bit exaggeration in your tone.


    that is why their economy is going to crumble in a few years when no one will be able to pay for all those parasites and retirees that Germany is going to be crowded with.
    Are you sure you are still impartial?

    Take a Germanic guy like that Breivik poor bastard. He wanted to save his "race", so he found nothing better to do than killing ethnic Swedish children to prove his point.
    I'm sure there was France's "Breiviks" already in french history. Just refresh your mind. What about french revolution? How many died for the cause of someone's dream?
    When one kills it is a domestic terrorism. If many kills it is a revolution.
    (I'm not in favour of either, just pointing to the complexity of human brain in general)[/QUOTE]



    Well, that is exactly what another Germanic did: Hitler. He did not make children and killed his own. Isn't there a trend to be observed there? The Germans are doomed because they are rabid individualists who are only able to worship a state figure, but cannot love a family or real human beings. That is too complex for them.
    I'm still in search of impartial You! One more impartial statement like this and your are banned.

    A word about the "entrepreneurial Celts". The Irish, for instance, have one of the lowest IQs in Europe.
    Check again.

    the Italians, southern Europeans, have one of the highest IQs in Europe
    . There is no real difference of IQ of any European countries.

    The English make more children than other Northern Europeans. Why is that so?
    Maybe because they have most of emigrants?


    Well, because the English, like the French, are a cultural and genetic crossbreed between Northern and Southern Europeans. They are much better at communicating their emotions than other Germanics, and their language is heavily influenced by southern European languages. They have more warmth in their hearts and they are ready to sacrifice their time and their money to welcome children in their homes.
    Or maybe they are just more emotional?


    They plan for a future.
    Agh? Looks like North Europeans invest more in the future, future technologies, and well being of the planet in general. Is this more individualistic or social?

    Survival lies not in the economy, it lies in biology.
    So remind me why T-Rex is extinct? It was the strongest predator of all times?
    Oh, right, he couldn't produce enough food to survive during crisis!


    Emotions are also carried by genes, and northern Europeans, like Neanderthal, are lacking those.
    You are on good track, you just exaggerate too much.
    Still impartial?


    What differentiated us from the Neandertals was superior communication skills and the ability to relate to others. Northern Europeans are obviously lacking in those respects. That is why they will disappear.
    I'm sure that sooner or later you will realise that northern europeans are not Neanderthals. If they a bit less emotional it doesn't make them less human, is it.
    Who said that humans are all about emothings? I believe that it is intelligence that we are most proud of. I also believe that right balance between intelligence and emotions is the most important.

    Happy Father's day to all the southern European scum on this board.
    And to you too.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have banned this hate-monger of Athenid. In addition to posting a very offensive first post on the forum, his IP address was from Inverness, Scotland, while he pretended being a Frenchman living Paris. Typical tr0ll material.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Individualism/Collectivism can be twisted as needed to fit any agenda, because it is so artificial. Hofstede's dimensions (from the 1960's) are no true dimensions because they are highly inter-dependent, but they should be independent (orthogonal). Sure, it was a pioneering work, but not at all the final wisdom. I would talk much about this topic, but just one example for now: East asians are traditionally considered typical collectivist societies, whereas north-west euros as individualst (at least the last is politically motivated nonsense imho). Now, genetic research has revealed that most east asians lack important genes for empathy as opposed to caucasians/europeans

    "The participants judged as less empathetic those people with either two As (AA) or GA than people with two Gs (GG)."..."On average, only about 15 percent of Caucasians have two A oxytocin receptor gene variants.", http://www.livescience.com/17018-emp...-behavior.html
    So what are the conclusions: does empathy belong to individualism now, or are east-asians actually individualists? Are south-europeans collectivist because of their empathy, or exactly the opposite? Perhaps conformism has been misinterpreted as collectivism!?
    I've read somewhere an interestring theory that asian conformism is a strategy to compensate this lack of empathy. I myself noticed a remarkable non-conformism and anarchism among south-europeans, even more than in north-europe. Makes sense. On the other hand, east-europe appeared similarly non-conformist and anarchic to me, which I can't explain yet.

    (googling using "East Asians have much higher frequency of the AA" reveals two hits in google cache which has been apparently removed meanwhile)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Individualism/Collectivism can be twisted as needed to fit any agenda, because it is so artificial. Hofstede's dimensions (from the 1960's) are no true dimensions because they are highly inter-dependent, but they should be independent (orthogonal). Sure, it was a pioneering work, but not at all the final wisdom. I would talk much about this topic, but just one example for now: East asians are traditionally considered typical collectivist societies, whereas north-west euros as individualst (at least the last is politically motivated nonsense imho). Now, genetic research has revealed that most east asians lack important genes for empathy as opposed to caucasians/europeans



    So what are the conclusions: does empathy belong to individualism now, or are east-asians actually individualists? Are south-europeans collectivist because of their empathy, or exactly the opposite? Perhaps conformism has been misinterpreted as collectivism!?
    I've read somewhere an interestring theory that asian conformism is a strategy to compensate this lack of empathy. I myself noticed a remarkable non-conformism and anarchism among south-europeans, even more than in north-europe. Makes sense. On the other hand, east-europe appeared similarly non-conformist and anarchic to me, which I can't explain yet.

    (googling using "East Asians have much higher frequency of the AA" reveals two hits in google cache which has been apparently removed meanwhile)
    Really interesting comment. I like the conformist vs. collective comparison.

    I do think as I learn more and more about these genetic findings that we have to watch out for a eugenics movement. Will somebody deem this lack of empathy a bad thing? (It may be, but it was put it in the genome for a reason.) I look to nature for answers here-- specifically the average tree canopy.

    In most forests, jungles, even suburbs there is a nice mix of plant species. For example the area near my house has a bunch of maples, a few oaks, some birch and interspersed throughout all of these shorter trees are some much taller pines. I'm guessing a healthy mix of haplogroups (both paternal and maternal) and a mix of autosomal traits (like empathic vs. more distant) give our human species an advantage.

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    Oh and Athenid you're a douchebag.

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    Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another.
    So I guess somebody who lacks empathy would seem as a very rude and machine-like person, capable of doing attrocious things to others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another.
    So I guess somebody who lacks empathy would seem as a very rude and machine-like person, capable of doing attrocious things to others.
    Yeah, that's what most believe, but I don't. In fact, autistic people are found to be statistically less often involved in anti-social behaviour, e.g. crimes. I'm sure that empathy is not required to be a decent person. Autistic people (with exceptions of course) tend to be even more concerned about justice than normal people. That's because they are less fooled by empathy and tend to use reason and logic in order to compensate lack of empathy. A problem is that they also tend to follow rules more rigidly (conformism?). IMHO empathy is a fad. Empathy is actually very selective and unjust, it works only for closely related people, but not for the whole mankind because the latter is too abstract for emotions. But reason and logic can be applied to whole humanity. The Kantian imperative is such an example of an unempathic ethic.

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    One additional remark: Empathy is also very useful to identify the other's weaknesses in order to exploit them (cheating, blackmail, lying, manipulation,...).

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