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Thread: Are some countries doomed to high unemployment due to their genetic pool ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Really interesting comment. I like the conformist vs. collective comparison.

    I do think as I learn more and more about these genetic findings that we have to watch out for a eugenics movement. Will somebody deem this lack of empathy a bad thing? (It may be, but it was put it in the genome for a reason.) I look to nature for answers here-- specifically the average tree canopy.
    I also don't consider empathy good or bad. But our opinion will not count, so obviously modern genetics is prone by nature to be used for eugenics eventually. Worse, eugenics selection criteria would depend more-or-less on certain fads, hypes or ideologies.

    In most forests, jungles, even suburbs there is a nice mix of plant species. For example the area near my house has a bunch of maples, a few oaks, some birch and interspersed throughout all of these shorter trees are some much taller pines. I'm guessing a healthy mix of haplogroups (both paternal and maternal) and a mix of autosomal traits (like empathic vs. more distant) give our human species an advantage.
    Right, never put all eggs in one basket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Yeah, that's what most believe, but I don't. In fact, autistic people are found to be statistically less often involved in anti-social behaviour, e.g. crimes. I'm sure that empathy is not required to be a decent person. Autistic people (with exceptions of course) tend to be even more concerned about justice than normal people. That's because they are less fooled by empathy and tend to use reason and logic in order to compensate lack of empathy. A problem is that they also tend to follow rules more rigidly (conformism?). IMHO empathy is a fad. Empathy is actually very selective and unjust, it works only for closely related people, but not for the whole mankind because the latter is too abstract for emotions. But reason and logic can be applied to whole humanity. The Kantian imperative is such an example of an unempathic ethic.
    It is hard to figure out people using reason only. I guess Lack of Empathy is harmless on a society with righteous laws, but it might get scary in Authoritarianism. I don't even want to imagine a 1984-like World Order operated by genetically non-empathetic bureaucrats and law enforcing officials.
    Human leadership, before we through ourlselves off-balance in the Iron-Age, were the most spiritual people of the tribe, such as Shamans/priests/priesteses. People say Shamans can read minds; they cannot read minds, they can just recognize emotions better than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    It is hard to figure out people using reason only. I guess Lack of Empathy is harmless on a society with righteous laws, but it might get scary in Authoritarianism. I don't even want to imagine a 1984-like World Order operated by genetically non-empathetic bureaucrats and law enforcing officials.
    I understand what you mean, maybe you are right about authoritarianism, I don't know. Certainly the best would be to be both, empathic and reasonable. Still: Empathy is only one tool to gain knowledge about other's feelings (what's right and wrong), but it is not the only one and it is not even a very sophisticated one. And it is also not the same as having good intentions. A simple example for purely non-empathic reason is:
    Person B suffers pain from a catastrophe (EDIT: in most cases it is trivial to understand when someone suffers just by rationally analyzing the situation rather than by reading his mind. Also, empathy would be restricted to direct personal contact, whereas reasonable situation analysis relies completely on formal data only, thus being applicable also to unknown remote persons.). I'm person A. I should help B because A and B are both persons (same species, probably(!) same culture). If I wouldn't help B, then I would violate logic because of double-standard. In this case I would risk to eventually suffer myself from the same double-standard I just created. (that's simple game theory reasoning)
    Let's look again at austists: If the parents explain to an autistic child what causes harm to other peer children, then the autistic child is not less likely to comply to this information by behaving more ethically. Grown-up autists can figure out by observation and reason what is harmful or not to others. The only cases where autists truly often tend to hurt other people is when they say things too openly and blatantly. But this is not because of evil intentions but because of unability to understand finer communication nuances, which can happen also to non-autistic people if they come from a different culture with different communicative nuances. Being non-empathic is effectively like being of a foreign culture in some sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I also don't consider empathy good or bad. But our opinion will not count, so obviously modern genetics is prone by nature to be used for eugenics eventually. Worse, eugenics selection criteria would depend more-or-less on certain fads, hypes or ideologies.
    Right, never put all eggs in one basket.
    In order to understand what really empathy is, one has to understand the evolution of the human thinking and evolution of the value systems in people and human society as a whole. Empathy has also an evolving meaning, for one value system may only mean feeling sorry or sad for someones' situation and offering just a plain charity, but there is empathy when people want to change the world and fight for equality since they believe that only in that way they will fight the poverty. There is empathy that understands deeply the problems but sees that they do it to themselves and knows that whatever they do, it will not help them in the long term. There is also a more complex empathy that helps others to wake up and realize their potential therefore be able to make a better world. I have to point out that there were three systems in the human evolution that did not have the concept of empathy at all, and those were systems that were directed by DNA ("selfish gene" as Richard Dawkins calls it) while now we are evolving or getting constantly programmed by both genes and memes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    In order to understand what really empathy is, one has to understand the evolution of the human thinking and evolution of the value systems in people and human society as a whole. Empathy has also an evolving meaning, for one value system may only mean feeling sorry or sad for someones' situation and offering just a plain charity, but there is empathy when people want to change the world and fight for equality since they believe that only in that way they will fight the poverty. There is empathy that understands deeply the problems but sees that they do it to themselves and knows that whatever they do, it will not help them in the long term. There is also a more complex empathy that helps others to wake up and realize their potential therefore be able to make a better world. I have to point out that there were three systems in the human evolution that did not have the concept of empathy at all, and those were systems that were directed by DNA ("selfish gene" as Richard Dawkins calls it) while now we are evolving or getting constantly programmed by both genes and memes.
    If I understand you right, you are suggesting several different definitions for empathy here?! Which is the right one? The fight for equality and things like that are actually good examples for non-empathic abstract moral reasoning which I explained above.
    Also, scientists seem to consider empathy more as something basic neurological and subconcious, I would say animal-like (http://www.livescience.com/1628-stud...feel-pain.html). This is the level where I would seek for a proper definition of empathy rather than in the higher abstract levels, because these higher levels are controlled by conciousness and reason.

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    hahahahah what a thread and this from the admin
    how can you link unenployment with genetics
    the youths in greece have no jobs because there are any not because they are too lazy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    If I understand you right, you are suggesting several different definitions for empathy here?! Which is the right one? The fight for equality and things like that are actually good examples for non-empathic abstract moral reasoning which I explained above.
    Also, scientists seem to consider empathy more as something basic neurological and subconcious, I would say animal-like (http://www.livescience.com/1628-stud...feel-pain.html). This is the level where I would seek for a proper definition of empathy rather than in the higher abstract levels, because these higher levels are controlled by conciousness and reason.
    No, you did not understand me at all. If you are looking for an absolute definition then you will not find the answer. I had to study the human nature for more then 10 years and I am still constantly learning. One thing that we all need to understand is that only change is the norm when it comes to human nature and human nature is not linear but lateral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    No, you did not understand me at all. If you are looking for an absolute definition then you will not find the answer. I had to study the human nature for more then 10 years and I am still constantly learning. One thing that we all need to understand is that only change is the norm when it comes to human nature and human nature is not linear but lateral.
    Even vague assumptions, hypothese or theories can and should be defined precisely as such. Definitions are not meant to be hard-coded in eternal stone, they can and should be constantly updated and refined, still they a basic necessity for reasoning and discussion.
    But the main concern is: that the commonly used definition of empathy includes at least two different concepts, which are so unrelated to each other that the definition becomes useless:
    for one value system may only mean feeling sorry or sad for someones' situation and offering just a plain charity, but there is empathy when people want to change the world and fight for equality since they believe that only in that way they will fight the poverty.
    -> conscious reason and unconscious drive, two things.


    In the linked article, where scientists investigate genetic causes of empathy it is obvious that they had to narrow down the definition of empathy to unconcious emotion only, else it were useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Really interesting comment. I like the conformist vs. collective comparison.

    I do think as I learn more and more about these genetic findings that we have to watch out for a eugenics movement. Will somebody deem this lack of empathy a bad thing? (It may be, but it was put it in the genome for a reason.) I look to nature for answers here-- specifically the average tree canopy.
    .
    That's because there is not only single successful way for life to evolve, the path to follow. If there was only one way, we would have had only one plant and one animal on this planet. The environment is so complex and ever changing on earth that it creates countless successful possibilities to "choose" for evolution. That's why we have millions of different plant and animal species.
    Likewise collective or individual characters give positive outcomes for societies. Probably the most important thing is to keep these traits of characters in balance, where too much collectivism and too much individualism would be destructive for any group of people.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 18-06-13 at 04:07.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Even vague assumptions, hypothese or theories can and should be defined precisely as such. Definitions are not meant to be hard-coded in eternal stone, they can and should be constantly updated and refined, still they a basic necessity for reasoning and discussion.
    But the main concern is: that the commonly used definition of empathy includes at least two different concepts, which are so unrelated to each other that the definition becomes useless:
    Well said.

    -> conscious reason and unconscious drive, two things.


    In the linked article, where scientists investigate genetic causes of empathy it is obvious that they had to narrow down the definition of empathy to unconcious emotion only, else it were useless.
    I'm completely in agreement with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Even vague assumptions, hypothese or theories can and should be defined precisely as such. Definitions are not meant to be hard-coded in eternal stone, they can and should be constantly updated and refined, still they a basic necessity for reasoning and discussion.
    But the main concern is: that the commonly used definition of empathy includes at least two different concepts, which are so unrelated to each other that the definition becomes useless:


    -> conscious reason and unconscious drive, two things.


    In the linked article, where scientists investigate genetic causes of empathy it is obvious that they had to narrow down the definition of empathy to unconcious emotion only, else it were useless.
    If you read Dr. Clare W. Graves the "Never ending quest" who has been doing his research for 30 years in the field of bio-psycho-sociology, he came to the conclusion that the empathy actually is born in the sixth system that he marked as FS, I have it in my previous posts. So only now the humanity is grasping the empathy. Why? Because our perceptions change and with it our DNA gets reprogrammed, it is a circle, cause and effect, never ending story.

    The way I understand the empathy (and that is my perception created by how I was programmed through my DNA and memes that I accepted through my lens) is when a human being is able to understand what someone is going through whichever experience one is going through. But that is not the end, empathy is when we are aware what our actions will cause in short and long term in others and future generations and that is definitely difficult to understand by studying the genes and by trying to quantify. And empathy actually is not subconscious but it is awareness - mindfulness. We can be empathetic only when we achieve to understand and manage ourselves when we understand why we do what we do, and if there is a different way of doing it without harming others.

    Empathy is a concept, same as freedom for eg., and concepts change with the evolution of the human DNA and brain/consciousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    If you read Dr. Clare W. Graves the "Never ending quest" who has been doing his research for 30 years in the field of bio-psycho-sociology, he came to the conclusion that the empathy actually is born in the sixth system that he marked as FS, I have it in my previous posts. So only now the humanity is grasping the empathy. Why? Because our perceptions change and with it our DNA gets reprogrammed, it is a circle, cause and effect, never ending story.
    I don't see the point of your argument since you seem to acknowledge DNA and I'm not arguing anything about possible causes of why empathy or any values happen to be encoded in the DNA or not. I just claim that some behaviour just is DNA encoded (currently in some Humans f.i. Oxytocin-Reception) and some other is not (yet). Of course DNA evolution is also selected by self-imposed value systems, but that's not the point, because it requires several generations. I think you talk about something different here (memes, co-evolution of values and DNA, etc.).

    The way I understand the empathy (and that is my perception created by how I was programmed through my DNA and memes that I accepted through my lens) is when a human being is able to understand what someone is going through whichever experience one is going through. But that is not the end, empathy is when we are aware what our actions will cause in short and long term in others and future generations and that is definitely difficult to understand by studying the genes and by trying to quantify. And empathy actually is not subconscious but it is awareness - mindfulness. We can be empathetic only when we achieve to understand and manage ourselves when we understand why we do what we do, and if there is a different way of doing it without harming others.

    Empathy is a concept, same as freedom for eg., and concepts change with the evolution of the human DNA and brain/consciousness.
    Whatever it is, it is worth to separate what is currently programmed by DNA, what is from subconciously trained and what is concious reason, et cetera. I did not read Dr. Clare W. Graves. Does he claim that this kind of analysis is nonsensical?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I did not read Dr. Clare W. Graves. Does he claim that this kind of analysis is nonsensical?
    I tried to put a different point of view in this discussion thread, I am not showing off or pretending that I know better or everything, I am simply sharing with others what I have learned and applied in my life with myself and other people. I have learned it the hard way and finally I am happy for it. I have experienced the worst in people during the war in Kosovo and other bestiality prior to it, but only now I understand why a human would kill a human being or why a human would help another human being. And yes Grawes gave me this insight, but only after I was able to manage my own prejudices otherwise it would not work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    I tried to put a different point of view in this discussion thread, I am not showing off or pretending that I know better or everything,
    I neither. I didn't know about the work of Dr. Graves before our discussion, thank you for that.

    I am simply sharing with others what I have learned and applied in my life with myself and other people. I have learned it the hard way and finally I am happy for it. I have experienced the worst in people during the war in Kosovo and other bestiality prior to it, but only now I understand why a human would kill a human being or why a human would help another human being. And yes Grawes gave me this insight, but only after I was able to manage my own prejudices otherwise it would not work.
    A cronic problem especially in "soft sciences" seems to be definitions, where each one uses a different one, because concepts are so vague, however.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo, you say "Many character traits are genetic, and individualism is certainly one of the most genetic of them all"

    Sorry, which are the scientifical proofs of this statement? Which is the gene of individualism? which are the genes of the other "many character traits" you mention?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    One additional remark: Empathy is also very useful to identify the other's weaknesses in order to exploit them (cheating, blackmail, lying, manipulation,...).
    That is emotional intelligence. If one has high emotional intelligence but lacks empathy will use it for the purposes that you mentioned. So for eg Gandhi had high EQ but he also had empathy, that most of us would recognize it as wisdom, while Hitler and others alike (dictators) had high EQ but lacked empathy. All the leaders (in whatever category, business, political or social) have high EQs, the difference for better or for worse is in the empathy. Stephen Covey explains this perfectly in his 8th habit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Thanks, the definition is indeed my problem here. According to Hofstede:

    - individualism: loose ties/interactions between individuals
    - collectivism: strong ties/interactions between individuals

    My own huble definition:

    - individualism: loose or sparse ties/interactions between individuals
    - collectivism: strong or frequent ties/interactions between individuals


    Your refining approach by different categories is also good.

    But I don't like Hofested's definition because the terms "loose" and "strong" in our case
    in this thread rather correspond to "dynamic" and "static", resp. Consequently the north-west
    european peoples tend to be just more socially mobile or dynamic (risk taking), but this is
    not exactly individualism in my definition, just social entrepreneursship. They can make
    individual actions or decisions for a collectivist goal (socialize). According to Hofstede this
    is indeed fully individualistic as you say, because interactions are disrupted. According
    to my definition it is only partially individualistic because the interactions are in fact
    disrupted for the sake of new interactions. This fits well to the free-market
    capitalism with its is high social mobility/dynamic, but by no means lack of social
    ties.

    On the other hand, when I look at societies with feudalistic traditions like rural
    balkans, here dominate static relationsships: clan, family, village, tradition, land.
    Also the mafia in south italy and albania. This corresponds to more risk-avoidance
    or change-avoidance but not necessarily to more collectivism. They are also partially
    individualistic because they stick to their individually accustomed interactions (an
    individually influenced collective) to them and avoid new interactions
    which are not yet individual to them. I mean, an individual can be member of a collective,
    but if this collective is individually accustomed (family), this individual is both
    individualist and collectivist at the same time, according to my definition. But
    according to Hofested's definition, it is not possible to decide how much individualistic
    or collectivistic this person would be.

    An Example:
    I observed a remarkable individual pride in south european men (Greeks, Turks) compared to
    northern europeans (e.g. Germans). They are prouder of their individual heritage (clannishness?),
    in contrast to North-westeners who are keen to abandon their individual family as soon as possible
    in favour of new peers (mind the teenagers ). This corresponds well to the stronger
    obedience of north-europeans to their state and to anonymous people whom they
    can not individually control or know (collectivistic behaviour?). OTH, I found that many
    south-europeans are reluctant to join a group before they are convinced that the group will
    respect them as an individual first (individualistic?). They demand personal respect
    beforehand (mind the vendetta, or spaniards demonstrating for government support ).
    The north europeans in turn often desperately try to be a group member, hoping that they will be
    respected one day (collectivistic?). A southerner would rather blame the collective for his
    individual misforune (collectivistic or individualistic?). This actually indicates that in the
    north-euro case the individual is even more pressed to serve society than in the south.
    For me that's collectivism. Depending on which level you look at, it can be more-or-less
    both individualistic or collectivistic.

    I wonder if the low social mobility in certain southern regions has to do with the
    longer history of farming. Land is static, passive and safe, but money is dynamic,
    active and risky (as hunting and gathering?). There is also currently a strong difference
    between rural and urban societies in the balkans, for instance in serbia.

    - I want to make clear, that the above is an exaggerated picture! South and north
    europenas are not remotely that extremely different.

    - Risk handling more directly explains economic situations. An entrepreneur is
    always a risk taker, no matter if collectivist or individualist.

    I hope my opinion has become more clear.
    This is it.

    Talked to some Germans visiting Finland in the summer and they praised how clean and organized everything is, just like home.
    The image that you present outside as a collective is what defines you in the north, your family, ethnicity, region and country.
    You can break this if you are an good as an individual, you will be taken as part of the "family", but not an automatic thing.
    Worst insult is that you are lazy as an individual, person feels that also shames his family and country, and the collective condemns you for not doing your best.
    Now this dont apply to those that live outside this collective, they are looked upon as outcasts, they could be foreigners just as well.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    edao:
    I don't think its a issue genetic issue but one of cultural attitudes.
    I agree with you. Whether the science corroborates it or not, I would hesitate to draw demarcation lines between northern and southern Europe in this issue. Two examples of opposing culture could be Japan-where, traditionally, the employer was held in reverence of the workers strived to ensure profitability, against England (and it's former colonies) where, through Unionism, many employees see the employer as an enemy as they seek ever increasing wages, better working conditions and shorter working hours. In these countries "sickies" (absence from work claiming illness) are the norm in many areas, another factor leading to increased productivity costs, and reduction in markets. New Zealanders call Australia "The Land of the Long Weekend", a reference to both the number of public holidays but also to the number of "sickies" taken on Fridays and Mondays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toyomotor View Post
    edao:
    I don't think its a issue genetic issue but one of cultural attitudes.
    I agree with you.
    But what if genetics influences the culture. Makes one culture different than others.
    No matter how one raises chimps they are not going to produce cars or make a movie.
    This is a drastic example of genetics dictating a culture. I'm not saying there are such differences among nations. But if Northern Europeans are less emotional than Southerners then perhaps this can explain why Northern cultures are more stoic, orderly and utilitarian (traits that aid economy). Where south is more emotional, family oriented, fashion and food loving, suspicious and more egoistic; and likewise their economies and politics are more a messy business.

    Having said that (I hope my observations are wrong), I imagine myself retiring somewhere around Mediterranean Sea where food is delicious and people more alive and animated. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    But what if genetics influences the culture. Makes one culture different than others.
    No matter how one raises chimps they are not going to produce cars or make a movie.
    This is a drastic example of genetics dictating a culture. I'm not saying there are such differences among nations. But if Northern Europeans are less emotional than Southerners then perhaps this can explain why Northern cultures are more stoic, orderly and utilitarian (traits that aid economy). Where south is more emotional, family oriented, fashion and food loving, suspicious and more egoistic; and likewise their economies and politics are more a messy business.

    Having said that (I hope my observations are wrong), I imagine myself retiring somewhere around Mediterranean Sea where food is delicious and people more alive and animated. :)
    Northern Europe has nine out of ten of the poorest countries in Europe. See http://www.aneki.com/poorest_europe.html which for some reason will not copy over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toyomotor View Post
    Northern Europe has nine out of ten of the poorest countries in Europe. See http://www.aneki.com/poorest_europe.html which for some reason will not copy over.
    I think that in Australia you're holding your maps upside down. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think that in Australia you're holding your maps upside down. :)
    I suppose it all depends on where you're standing at the time ;).
    The countries listed with the per capita GDP are:-
    Moldova-$3,500.00; Ukraine-$7,500.00; Albania-$*,200.00; Bosnia Herzegovnia-$8,400.00; Serbia-$10,600.00; Macedonia-$10,80.00 and Montenegro-$12,000.00. And that's with our maps, right way up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toyomotor View Post
    I suppose it all depends on where you're standing at the time ;).
    The countries listed with the per capita GDP are:-
    Moldova-$3,500.00; Ukraine-$7,500.00; Albania-$*,200.00; Bosnia Herzegovnia-$8,400.00; Serbia-$10,600.00; Macedonia-$10,80.00 and Montenegro-$12,000.00. And that's with our maps, right way up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toyomotor View Post
    I suppose it all depends on where you're standing at the time ;).
    The countries listed with the per capita GDP are:-
    Moldova-$3,500.00; Ukraine-$7,500.00; Albania-$*,200.00; Bosnia Herzegovnia-$8,400.00; Serbia-$10,600.00; Macedonia-$10,80.00 and Montenegro-$12,000.00. And that's with our maps, right way up.
    And which of these countries, you suppose, belong to Northern Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    And which of these countries, you suppose, belong to Northern Europe?
    Sorry, you're correct. The countries I mentioned are, strictly speaking, Eastern Europe.

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