Are some countries doomed to high unemployment due to their genetic pool ?

[ElHorsto]

Sorry, you're correct. The countries I mentioned are, strictly speaking, Eastern Europe.

South-eastern, strictly speaking :).

[mihaitzateo]

Eastern Slavs are very individualistic,compared even to Scandos,who seems to be most individualistic from Europe.

Romanians,even if Romance speakers,especially those from Moldavia,are very individualistic .
Believe or not,but being a team worker is something that is very appreciated in Scandinavia and in Great Britain.
And this (team working) brings much better results.
As for being a team worker or not,is not about genes,but about education.
Eastern Europeans are like that because of the hardships they got here.
What is weird is that Greeks are not like that,I mean individualistic.
And this individualistic attitude brings a raise in un-employment for the simple reason that people are rather putting someone they know to work more,or refuse to get more jobs,rather than employ new people.
I know these things very well,since I live in Romania.
As for Greeks and Italians,the un-employment is high because of the education.
The education they got was not one to praise work.
So you can see that in Romania and Ukraine and Russia and other pure Eastern European countries (like Belarus,Poland is not pure Eastern European mentality country) most people are willing to work,even if for low earnings and bad conditions but they do not find what.
Why?
Simple,because of individualism of others and anti-social attitude of people on high positions,who determine if someone will be hired or not.
I suspect the high individualism of Scandinavians and their anti-social attitude is not a Germanic trait,but something inherited from their Eastern neighbours,that is Baltic people and Slavic people.As for Finnic people,they seems to be different from Slavic and Baltic people.
I mean Great Britain people are well known to be one of the most tolerant and open minded people,who are not discriminating against strangers,just because they are strangers etc.
And Great Britain education is for sure mostly Germanic.
However,Germany population is not Germanic anymore,Germany was born from mixing of old Germans from there with Old Prussians,who were Baltic people and this thing is clearly shown by admixture tests.
They also seems to mixed with Slavs in significant numbers.

[mihaitzateo]

South-eastern, strictly speaking :).

Moldavia is no way South_Eastern,they are fully Eastern.
As physical look,is very hard to distinguish between Ukrainians and Moldovans,same about Moldovans from Romania.

[ElHorsto]

That is emotional intelligence. If one has high emotional intelligence but lacks empathy will use it for the purposes that you mentioned. So for eg Gandhi had high EQ but he also had empathy, that most of us would recognize it as wisdom, while Hitler and others alike (dictators) had high EQ but lacked empathy. All the leaders (in whatever category, business, political or social) have high EQs, the difference for better or for worse is in the empathy. Stephen Covey explains this perfectly in his 8th habit.

Well, if the definition empathy="knowing what others feel" holds, then empathy is a necessity to have a high EQ. But if Covey is right, then all autists should be psychopaths, but they aren't.
I hope I'll find time eventually to read some of Covey's explanations, just in case I missed something. I hope he writes something about sadists and bullies too, and whether they are empathic or high EQ or not. Because I wonder how someone could be sadist without the ability to feel his victim's misery. But again I'm a hobbyist thinker only and maybe I'm missing something. Thanks again for the literature reference.

[ElHorsto]

Moldavia is no way South_Eastern,they are fully Eastern.
As physical look,is very hard to distinguish between Ukrainians and Moldovans,same about Moldovans from Romania.

Checking the longitudes, Moldavia is in the South-eastern quarter as Romania is. And I'm surprised to hear that Ukrainians resemble Romanians by physical look.
Most part of Ukraine is fully eastern though, that's true I agree.

[LeBrok]

Sorry, you're correct. The countries I mentioned are, strictly speaking, Eastern Europe.

No problem. Anyway I was loosely referring to longitudinal position, more in relative terms. Generally speaking, the more north one goes, one can find less emotional people, the more south one goes, the more emotional people are. On other hand I don't think there is any significant difference in IQ among european countries, giving same level of education.

[LeBrok]

Well, if the definition empathy="knowing what others feel" holds, then empathy is a necessity to have a high EQ. But if Covey is right, then all autists should be psychopaths, but they aren't.
I hope I'll find time eventually to read some of Covey's explanations, just in case I missed something. I hope he writes something about sadists and bullies too, and whether they are empathic or high EQ or not. Because I wonder how someone could be sadist without the ability to feel his victim's misery.

Psychopaths or sadists have "reversed" empathy, a negative empathy. They don't feel compassion, but instead they feel pleasure when seeing other's misery or suffering. I suspect a faulty wiring between visual cortex and amygdala where the emotions are located in our brains.
Sadists hurt people on purpose to get pleasurable excitement, to get high, often connected to sexual one.
Autistic people hurt others accidentally because without empathy they don't know they hurt others.

[Aberdeen]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the most obvious cultural reason for differences between northern and southern Europe, which is religion. The northern countries are mostly protestant whereas the southern countries are mostly catholic or orthodox. Protestantism encourages independent thinking and individual initiative. At its most rigid, it can also encourage anger and selfishness, as seen in the religious right in the U.S. However, liberal protestants and agnostics/atheists from a protestant background are generally in favour of honesty and fairness, so protestant countries generally have less corruption and their people tend to favour having good social structures. Whereas a more authoritarian religious structure such as catholicism or orthodox systems seem to breed corruption and dependency, with people having strong family ties in order to survive but having far less initiative. That's my opinion, anyway.

[mihaitzateo]

Germany is Catholic,Italy is Catholic,however,Germany is much more developed that Italy.
What is the difference?
Corruption.
Italy is very corrupt,while Germany have very few problems with corruption.
From where this corruption was inherited?
I think from Roman Empire times.

[Aberdeen]

Germany is Catholic,Italy is Catholic,however,Germany is much more developed that Italy.
What is the difference?
Corruption.
Italy is very corrupt,while Germany have very few problems with corruption.
From where this corruption was inherited?
I think from Roman Empire times.

Germany is about 50/50 protestant and catholic, with the protestants more common in the more industrial north. France is nominally catholic but religion has been discouraged by government there for a long time, whereas catholicism is still very powerful in Spain, Portugal and Italy. And in the Balkans, it's divided between catholic, orthodox and moslem. If the Croats and Serbs were honest, they'd admit that they're basically the same people but Croats are catholic and Serbs are orthodox. Centralized religions make societies stagnate, IMO.

[ElHorsto]

Germany is about 50/50 protestant and catholic, with the protestants more common in the more industrial north.

Actually not anymore. Today it's clearly the south which is the industrial one. Bavaria as the most strictly catholic province is second wealthiest today, right after Baden-Würtenberg, which is part-catholic. The northern protestant provinces (except Hamburg) today are almost all among the poorest. The northernmost provinces are also the most agricultural and Bremen is close to bankruptcy, even worse than most east-german towns (east Germany has a special recent history as we know).
But for the past you are right, it was the protestant north, in particular the north-east (Prussia, Saxony, Silesia) which was the most modern and industrial.

[toyomotor]

No problem. Anyway I was loosely referring to longitudinal position, more in relative terms. Generally speaking, the more north one goes, one can find less emotional people, the more south one goes, the more emotional people are. On other hand I don't think there is any significant difference in IQ among european countries, giving same level of education.

I made the often fatal mistake of taking a web site at face value.:0

[mihaitzateo]

Germany is about 50/50 protestant and catholic, with the protestants more common in the more industrial north. France is nominally catholic but religion has been discouraged by government there for a long time, whereas catholicism is still very powerful in Spain, Portugal and Italy. And in the Balkans, it's divided between catholic, orthodox and moslem. If the Croats and Serbs were honest, they'd admit that they're basically the same people but Croats are catholic and Serbs are orthodox. Centralized religions make societies stagnate, IMO.

Republic of Ireland,which is mostly Catholic,got a higher GDP/capita than Great Britain,which is mostly Protestant.
Austria,which is also Catholic,got a very high GDP per capita.

[ElHorsto]

I see that the protestant/catholic = rich/poor does not always hold, but

Republic of Ireland,which is mostly Catholic,got a higher GDP/capita than Great Britain,which is mostly Protestant.

Ireland experienced a boom bubble right before the financial crisis. Now Ireland is considered part or the "PIIGS countries".
It was actually the only time when Ireland experienced some wealth since the middle ages. Else it was much of the time europe's poorest country.

By the way, the now rich Bavaria which is very catholic was also the poorest and backward region of Germany until few decades ago.

Austria,which is also Catholic,got a very high GDP per capita.

That's true. Austria has a stable wealthy society and was an empire in the past. On the other hand, catholic Spain and Portugal were once the biggest world empires too.

[FBS]

Well, if the definition empathy="knowing what others feel" holds, then empathy is a necessity to have a high EQ. But if Covey is right, then all autists should be psychopaths, but they aren't.
I hope I'll find time eventually to read some of Covey's explanations, just in case I missed something. I hope he writes something about sadists and bullies too, and whether they are empathetic or high EQ or not. Because I wonder how someone could be sadist without the ability to feel his victim's misery. But again I'm a hobbyist thinker only and maybe I'm missing something. Thanks again for the literature reference.

The correct definition would be: empathy="feeling what others feel (for e.g. feeling hurt almost the same way as the other person hurts, whoever they may be"; while EQ = "ability to read emotional data in me and in others therefore being able to manipulate (manage) my feelings and of others"

We can build empathy by finding our noble goal, people that have a noble goal in their lives are empathetic.

For the autistics maybe we could start another thread to discuss the issue...

[albanopolis]

I am afraid there could be some genetic predisposition for the Balkan countries at least. The Balkans so far have not been able to employ their own people. Lack the work ethics and desire to work.
The anecdote that circulates in Albania is like this: A German goes to the library and stays 5 Hours inside, an Italian goes inside comes around but does not stay, an Albanian looks from the window who is inside.
Been small countries is a big minus as well. Inadequate schooling system. No country has been enriched by agriculture alone. Time will tell.

[Maciamo]

Been small countries is a big minus as well. Inadequate schooling system. No country has been enriched by agriculture alone. Time will tell.

Actually it is easier to manage a small country than a large one. In Europe the most developed, educated and peaceful countries are typically small (Switzerland, Austria, Benelux, Scandinavian countries, Finland, Ireland).

[kamani]

I am afraid there could be some genetic predisposition for the Balkan countries at least. The Balkans so far have not been able to employ their own people. Lack the work ethics and desire to work.
The anecdote that circulates in Albania is like this: A German goes to the library and stays 5 Hours inside, an Italian goes inside comes around but does not stay, an Albanian looks from the window who is inside.
Been small countries is a big minus as well. Inadequate schooling system. No country has been enriched by agriculture alone. Time will tell.

It might be weather related, in harsh cold climates or deserts you have to be somewhat driven and motivated in order to survive (you better take things seriously when it is -20 C and you have no proper shelter). The same goes for places with extremely high population density and competition (ex:Japan). However if you want to go the genetic route, someone might speculate that these "motivated" people might have a problem relaxing and having fun, or making real friendships (since it is always about stuff...). In places like equatorial Africa, you can just wear a leaf and live in a tent all year around.

[albanopolis]

Actually it is easier to manage a small country than a large one. In Europe the most developed, educated and peaceful countries are typically small (Switzerland, Austria, Benelux, Scandinavian countries, Finland, Ireland).

There is a social laboratory to test the genetic deficiency of people from around the world.
That is USA. All people start from equally social conditions to better themselves. The only one who have distinguished themselves are the Jewish. My observation is that South Europeans distinguish themselves in arts and sports. Hollywood without Southerns is dead.
Southern Europeans have the same share in percentage terms of rich, poor and middle class people as Northers.
Small Nordic countries economies function as a complementary of bigger ones. They have started to feel the disadvantage of being small. Finland was once the biggest producer of phones. Lack of manpower led to shortages of engineers and eventually Nokia went bust. Many other industries will follow. So did Sweden's car building industry. Irish had not been for the financial aid from Britain would have been on the boats by now, on the way to Boston.Nothing has gone bust in Germany. So, yes being small its a disadvantage in economic terms.

[joeyc]

Romanians over these forums badmouthing Southern Europeans/Balkanites and especially Italians, make me laugh hard. Is the level of self hate among these self declared "Romans" really so high?

Do I really need to post some links about how Romanians behave in Western Europe and everywhere they go? LOL.

[albanopolis]

Romanians over these forums badmouthing Southern Europeans/Balkanites and especially Italians, make me laugh hard. Is the level of self hate among these self declared "Romans" really so high?

Do I really need to post some links about how Romanians behave in Western Europe and everywhere they go? LOL.

They are Balkans as well. Like other Balkan people the steal, cheat and are lazy.
But to their credit they have good taste for art and architecture. Bucharest is the jewel of the east.

[joeyc]

O'RLY? You don't really know Romanians on the internetwebz. Now they think that they are Central-Eastern Europeans because they live North of the Danube river. I know it's funny and at the same time they are always badmouthing their southern neighbours like Bulgarians and Greeks. There must be something wrong in Romania.

[joeyc]

Roma-nia is such an advanced country.

Corruption in Europe.



Investments in innovation

[kostop]

"Wherever you go around the world, you will always meet English and Dutch people. They have travel in their blood. The more out-of-the-beaten-track and adventurous the destination, the higher their proportion to other nationalities. I talk from experience, having myself travelled to about 50 countries. "

They also have high disposable incomes and relatively long annual holidays comparing to most others, including people from the US.

"I haven't met a single southern European backpacker in Australia and very few in India or Southeast Asia."

I have travelled to more than 70 countries due to my line of work. During the golden (bubble) years of economic growth in Greece (2000-2009), I was impressed by the number of Greek travellers I met in some of the world's most remote destinations. 5 years into the crisis, my compatriots have returned to their traditional holiday destinations, in other words the Greek islands and the mountainous villages of the mainland. There is a very strong correlation between foreign holidays and economics.

It is not a coincindence that throughout our history we have been seafarers and up to this date shipping is one of our biggest industries, therefore I seriously doubt that we lack the urge to travel and take risks, despite being southern Europeans.

As for individuallity and enterpreneurship, although it is hard to measure, I believe that the number of SMEs in an economy is a good indicator. It is interesting that SMEs are the workhorse of the economy both in non neighbouring countries such as Greece and Germany, while countries in between differ.
In any case, I do not think this is a genetic issue. I am more inclined to believe that it has to do with social, cultural and historical reasons. For instance, former communist countries show greater collectivism. The difference between West and East Germany is a good example.

[Dinarid]

What is this, the 1930's?