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Thread: The elusive non-Germanic I1

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    The elusive non-Germanic I1

    Firstly, it's important to preface any analysis of Haplogroup I1 with three important references:



    Combined, we see that I1 is rather young (current Nordtvedt estimate seems to be ~4000 years old) and has a very Germanic spread. It has a center of diversity around Schleswig-Holstein and a center of frequency north of there. Its initial expansion was likely out of the Nordic Bronze Age. The question I'd like to investigate is: Is there any I1 distribution that can be explained by a non-Germanic migration, and if so, what characteristics does it take?

    Eupedia members have pointed out odd stretches of I1 into the Finns (evidence of a Uralic cluster?), the Balkans (evidence of a Slavic or Illyrian cluster?), and Ireland & Wales (evidence of a Celtic cluster?). But all these places did have Germanic migrations, as well. Can the I1 there be clustered separately from these Germanic migrations?

    I have looked at the data, but have had difficulty coming to any conclusion other than this: If there is any non-Germanic I1, it has become non-Germanic only recently. Let's look first at the distribution and dating of the major I1 subclades:

    • I1f: ~2000 years old with a particularly English distribution, although with some membership in Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, and even Poland.
    • I1d*: ~3000 years old with a very Nordic center of diversity but with a distribution everywhere, from Scandinavia to Turkey to Russia to the UK to Italy.
    • I1d1: ~3000 years old with a more southern center of diversity than I1d*, but still an obviously Germanic distribution, with a lot of membership in the UK, and interesting membership in Croatia.
    • I1d3: ~2000 years old with primary membership dominantly in Finland. I would suggest it to be Uralic if it wasn't for its obviously diverse (just less frequent) presence in the North Germanic countries, and its youth. As is, it looks like an expansion from Scandinavia on Finland.


    So what of those spikes in interesting places? Not all I1 fits into subclades. Since Nordtvedt's STR clusters are the gold standard of I1 STR clusters, let's analyze them in the context of those:

    • The Finnish spike: There is Finnish membership in several I1 clusters, but the majority of Finnish I1 is clearly I1d3, synonymous with the Nortdvedt STR cluster of I1-Bothnian. The non-I1d3 I1 in Finland clearly joins Germanic STR clusters, but what of this I1d3? Its age (~2000 years) places it before the Migration Period, but keep in mind that the age of a haplogroup is the earliest, not the approximate average, date that would be calculated for the migration of that group. Since 2000 years ago goes only to the Classical Period, it seems apparent that this fits the Migration Period, with subsequent expansion within Finland, better than anything else. I say Germanic.
    • The Welsh spike: The STR cluster membership and the diversity of I1 as a whole in Wales is very much parallel to the STR cluster membership and diversity of I1 as a whole in England. The only possible exceptions are Welsh membership in the Nordtvedt STR clusters of AS2 and AS4, where Welsh membership seems to be a bit higher than English membership. But the diversity within these clusters is very low--clearly low enough to be Medieval expansions--and due to their joint membership in England, there doesn't seem to be any reason to assume that they are anything but English expansions on Wales. I say Germanic.
    • The Irish spike: The Irish clustering contrasts with the Welsh clustering in that it seems to be the product of migrations exclusively rather than any genetic expansions. Irish membership is dominated by the ubiquitous and most commonly English AS-gen STR cluster, and has a notably high membership in the Norse clusters. But it doesn't have any of its own ancient clusters, or even interesting expansions like you seem to have in Wales. The only possibility I see of a "Celtic" I1 here is within the AS-gen cluster. But barring additional analysis of that, I say Germanic.
    • The spike in the Balkans: This one is the least researched due to the lack of samples from the region, but so far, the most common cluster for Balkans members seems to be T2. T2 is an odd cluster that stretches from Ireland to the Balkans and seems to have common membership everywhere but at its center of diversity, which could indicate a displacement of I1 from its center of diversity (maybe close to Poland?). But although it's somewhat mysterious, T2's distribution is clearly not Slavic or Illyrian, and everything about it indicates Germanic, possibly a combination of East, North, and West Germanic, with its appearance in the Balkans apparently East Germanic. Other clusters present in the Balkans include different AS clusters, which are also apparently Germanic. So barring us finding an interesting Balkans-exclusive cluster, it appears that the spike (and I should probably use "spike" loosely because it really isn't all that common) in the Balkans is also Germanic.

    Altogether, I can't find any I1 that can't be explained by a Germanic migration. Can you?

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    First of all, how relevant is this 10month old study
    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...Migrations.pdf

    Next, why does everyone assume I1 is a germanic HG, IMO, germany in early bronze age was only in the north, in central and southern Germany where gallic people and north of these "northern Germans" where the "Norse/nordic" people.

    I1 could easily have migrated south from norway into northern germany , mixed , and then moved firstly, south and east from there.

    I read recently, that original germanic lands in early bronze age where only ,( using modern borders,) flanders, netherlands, northern germany, poland and thenthe areas heading southeast to the carpathian mountains.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    First of all, how relevant is this 10month old study
    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...Migrations.pdf
    I'd never trust an analysis in Comic Sans.

    Seriously, it's not an entirely unhelpful overview, and gives basically the same clustering results as Nordtvedt/the FTDNA Project do, but with more neutral names (like "BA" instead of "Bothnian"). You can refer to it if you want, but I don't see that it adds anything that I haven't already presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Next, why does everyone assume I1 is a germanic HG, IMO, germany in early bronze age was only in the north, in central and southern Germany where gallic people and north of these "northern Germans" where the "Norse/nordic" people.

    I1 could easily have migrated south from norway into northern germany , mixed , and then moved firstly, south and east from there.
    Are you confusing Germany with the Germanic language family? I don't get your point. Of course Germanic languages arose toward the northern end of their modern distribution, and subsequently spread several directions from several different starting points.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I read recently, that original germanic lands in early bronze age where only ,( using modern borders,) flanders, netherlands, northern germany, poland and thenthe areas heading southeast to the carpathian mountains.
    Who says that? Germanic languages in the Carpathians shortly after the Bronze Age? Only a recent introduction to Denmark?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I'd never trust an analysis in Comic Sans.

    Seriously, it's not an entirely unhelpful overview, and gives basically the same clustering results as Nordtvedt/the FTDNA Project do, but with more neutral names (like "BA" instead of "Bothnian"). You can refer to it if you want, but I don't see that it adds anything that I haven't already presented.



    Are you confusing Germany with the Germanic language family? I don't get your point. Of course Germanic languages arose toward the northern end of their modern distribution, and subsequently spread several directions from several different starting points.


    I am referring to people as in culturally and mostly likely genetically and not langustically, btw , germanic language is well known in the ancient/dark ages times as inferior to the gallic/celtic in languages, we see this later as the germanic franks became gallic linguistically, germanic lombards became italo-gallic and the normans became gallic linguistically too......there are more examples
    But languages is not what I refer too in previous post.

    As I stated, I1 was originally norde/nordic ( be it norway, sweden and denmark )

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post


    Who says that? Germanic languages in the Carpathians shortly after the Bronze Age? Only a recent introduction to Denmark?
    The Bastanae and peucini where germanic tribes in the carpathian and north of these mountains, they started the proto german-slavic linguistic connection ..........but this is another thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I am referring to people as in culturally and mostly likely genetically and not langustically, btw , germanic language is well known in the ancient/dark ages times as inferior to the gallic/celtic in languages, we see this later as the germanic franks became gallic linguistically, germanic lombards became italo-gallic and the normans became gallic linguistically too......there are more examples
    But languages is not what I refer too in previous post.
    OK, let's be careful with our terminology then. I am referring to the migration of peoples who spoke, or who came directly from an ethnicity who originally spoke, a language that is a member of the Germanic language family.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    As I stated, I1 was originally norde/nordic ( be it norway, sweden and denmark )
    I think if it originated in Norway, Sweden, or Denmark, then Denmark is the one, because its center of diversity has been pinpointed just south of there, in Schleswig-Holstein. But it's definitely possible that it was part of the Nordic Bronze Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The Bastanae and peucini where germanic tribes in the carpathian and north of these mountains, they started the proto german-slavic linguistic connection ..........but this is another thread
    The Bastarnae were well after the Bronze Age, and their existence doesn't really challenge anything, other than offering another possible Germanic source for Southeastern European I1. Unless you're saying that they contributed to a major Slavic, rather than Germanic, migration into the Carpatians, and carried that T2 cluster that I was talking about?

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    Interesting analsyis, Sparkey! Very impressive.

    I do have a question, however, which tackles both the I1 presence in Ireland/Wales as well as in Eastern Europe: while I totally agree that virtually all I1 can be reasonably explained with the Germanic migrations, is there any practial way to discern from the available data between any iron age migrations and the Migrations Period?

    Otherwise, I would say 'there go my ideas about I1 in Ireland...'

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    I think if it originated in Norway, Sweden, or Denmark, then Denmark is the one, because its center of diversity has been pinpointed just south of there, in Schleswig-Holstein. But it's definitely possible that it was part of the Nordic Bronze Age.
    You could be right as Schleswig-Holstein was migrated later by saxon, angels and jutes later on

    The Bastarnae were well after the Bronze Age, and their existence doesn't really challenge anything, other than offering another possible Germanic source for Southeastern European I1. Unless you're saying that they contributed to a major Slavic, rather than Germanic, migration into the Carpatians, and carried that T2 cluster that I was talking about?
    i thought more of it being U instead of T2, .........more U4 or U5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Interesting analsyis, Sparkey! Very impressive.

    I do have a question, however, which tackles both the I1 presence in Ireland/Wales as well as in Eastern Europe: while I totally agree that virtually all I1 can be reasonably explained with the Germanic migrations, is there any practial way to discern from the available data between any iron age migrations and the Migrations Period?

    Otherwise, I would say 'there go my ideas about I1 in Ireland...'
    It's pretty much a judgment call based on the available data, because it looks like all these I1 clusters are getting similar STR dating estimates of 2000-3000 years ago. A rule of thumb is that geographic separation between clusters is more likely to be the result of Iron Age migrations, like how we see that I1f is more West Germanic (I think), while I1d* is more North Germanic (pretty clearly), but the expansions on places we see within clusters are more indicative of Migration Period migrations, like the apparent expansion on Finland within I1d3.

    I have trouble seeing how any Irish I1 is anything other than late Germanic influence, from the Migration Period onward. The Welsh clusters are interesting, though, and I may have been too quick to dismiss them. AS2 probably less so, as it stretches to the Continent and is more obviously Anglo-Saxon, but AS4 doesn't have much English membership and even has Irish membership. Maybe it's a bad assumption that AS4's English membership is representative of its origin, I'm not sure.

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    There is one new circumstance which could affect analysis regarding Germanic people and their connection to I1. This new knowledge comes from recent breakthrough in development of structure in R1a.

    Namely, the most of Scandinavian R1a has Z284 SNP, and at the same time this SNP is almost absent from other parts of Europe. So the question is can some conclusions be drawn from knowing this circumstance?

    My view is that it does not mean I1 in different parts of Europe is not Germanic, but that it could maybe be used more for understanding more distant past of Germanic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i thought more of it being U instead of T2, .........more U4 or U5
    I'm talking about I1 STR clusters, not mtDNA. I don't think there's an I1 STR cluster called U4 or U5.

    See here for modals of the common ones (maybe outdated but shouldn't have changed much since then).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Namely, the most of Scandinavian R1a has Z284 SNP, and at the same time this SNP is almost absent from other parts of Europe. So the question is can some conclusions be drawn from knowing this circumstance?
    Is it thought to be an expansion from the Northwestern edge of Corded Ware Culture? It sounds like it just by hearing about it, but I don't know if you have dates or anything regarding it. If so, it shouldn't affect I1 much, as I1 was, with some certainty, not part of Corded Ware. Though, if we find where else that R1a subclade ended up, it might help us draw a picture of which I1 came from Scandinavia in particular.

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    I don't have data about age, but I've seen this map made by some Russian. Pins represent people tested positive to Z284. Great Britain has a lot of pins, but if I remember well R1a is much lower there than in Scandinavia, and origin of this R1a could be easily explained by Germanic migrations:


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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's pretty much a judgment call based on the available data, because it looks like all these I1 clusters are getting similar STR dating estimates of 2000-3000 years ago. A rule of thumb is that geographic separation between clusters is more likely to be the result of Iron Age migrations, like how we see that I1f is more West Germanic (I think), while I1d* is more North Germanic (pretty clearly), but the expansions on places we see within clusters are more indicative of Migration Period migrations, like the apparent expansion on Finland within I1d3.
    Well, this is definitely a compelling point, and I have nothing to argue against that. What I actually also find surprising here is the situation in Finland.

    I have trouble seeing how any Irish I1 is anything other than late Germanic influence, from the Migration Period onward. The Welsh clusters are interesting, though, and I may have been too quick to dismiss them. AS2 probably less so, as it stretches to the Continent and is more obviously Anglo-Saxon, but AS4 doesn't have much English membership and even has Irish membership. Maybe it's a bad assumption that AS4's English membership is representative of its origin, I'm not sure.
    Well, I must admit that my original consideration was that I1 in Ireland seemed to be too high to be considered solely the source of late Germanic influence (in the case of Ireland, only the Vikings and the English). From that perspective, as well as the generally high concentrations of I1 in the British Isles, the idea came to me if there might have been an iron age migration component to I1. However, I must say that I largely discarded this already:

    There has been an interesting archaeological argument (somebody here brought this up a while ago): first off, La-Tene influence in Ireland is obviously rather peripherial, and it entered Ireland from the north. This suggests that the transmission was largely through cultural contact, rather than a population influx (unlike in Britain). What, of course, also speaks against it, is that I1 does not correlate very well at all with U152 on the British Isles.

    So yes, I agree with you that with the highest likelihood, I1 in both Ireland and Wales has to be explained via Germanic influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Pins represent people tested positive to Z284.
    Actually what I wrote is wrong. They are mostly predicted Z284 based on STR markers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I don't have data about age, but I've seen this map made by some Russian. Pins represent people tested positive to Z284. Great Britain has a lot of pins, but if I remember well R1a is much lower there than in Scandinavia, and origin of this R1a could be easily explained by Germanic migrations:
    That map makes it look to me like it is primarily confined to North Germanic peoples and their descendants, although not exclusively. Britain has a massively biased sample size, and the lack of it on the southern coast of England, but tremendous amount in Scotland, is telling. So I think that we should expect I1 just about everywhere that we see R1a-Z284, but we're probably not going to see R1a-Z284 everywhere we see I1. That's my initial impression. The corollary is that if we find I1 in places where R1a-Z284 isn't, we can't declare that I1 non-Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I'd never trust an analysis in Comic Sans.

    Seriously, it's not an entirely unhelpful overview, and gives basically the same clustering results as Nordtvedt/the FTDNA Project do, but with more neutral names (like "BA" instead of "Bothnian"). You can refer to it if you want, but I don't see that it adds anything that I haven't already presented.
    you did not drill deep enough to my link,

    see map below
    http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you did not drill deep enough to my link,

    see map below
    http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
    Oh I see, he places I1d3 as nearly 1000 years older than Nordtvedt does, and suggests that it came out of Finland. If true, that does change the picture in Finland significantly. Still, I'm hesitant to trust his dating, which is much older for I1 as a whole as well. His suggestion in his map that "AABA" (I think that maps to Nordtvedt's AS clusters?) originated in England nearly 4000 years ago seems wrong on its face, and also makes me think that the map is meant as more of a schematic than an in-depth historical migration analysis. At least, as a schematic, it doesn't preclude there being no major non-Germanic I1 migrations or expansions.

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    I mostly agree, however, I am rather confused, as assuming that both I1 and R1b-U106 came to Iberia with the Germanic migrations (which I believe is the case), why is there much more I1 than U106 in Iberia, and why is I1 relatively widespread (3%, a fair amount compared to other parts of Iberia) in places like Extremadura, and infrequent (0.5%) in places like Castilla&León?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I mostly agree, however, I am rather confused, as assuming that both I1 and R1b-U106 came to Iberia with the Germanic migrations (which I believe is the case), why is there much more I1 than U106 in Iberia, and why is I1 relatively widespread (3%, a fair amount compared to other parts of Iberia) in places like Extremadura, and infrequent (0.5%) in places like Castilla&León?
    Here's a question that you may be able to answer better than me: Where did East Germanic peoples settle vs. West Germanic peoples in Iberia? I have a feeling that answering that will help us here. While I1 seems to have been relatively equal in frequency among the different Germanic branches, R1b-U106 seems to have been most common among West Germanic peoples in particular.

    And if it still mismatches... we'll need to analyze the diversity of I1 and R1b-U106 in different areas, to see if any founder effects are throwing us off. Frequency distributions can be misleading...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Here's a question that you may be able to answer better than me: Where did East Germanic peoples settle vs. West Germanic peoples in Iberia? I have a feeling that answering that will help us here. While I1 seems to have been relatively equal in frequency among the different Germanic branches, R1b-U106 seems to have been most common among West Germanic peoples in particular.

    And if it still mismatches... we'll need to analyze the diversity of I1 and R1b-U106 in different areas, to see if any founder effects are throwing us off. Frequency distributions can be misleading...
    Did west germanic tribes migrate is the question ..............as goths, vandals, burgundians, lombards, Heruli etc etc where all east -germanic or southern swedish people

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Did west germanic tribes migrate is the question ..............as goths, vandals, burgundians, lombards, Heruli etc etc where all east -germanic or southern swedish people
    You don't think any Franks or Suebi ended up in Iberia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    You don't think any Franks or Suebi ended up in Iberia?
    No I do not, the franks only settled in northern france and converted to the gallic tongue and introduced/began L'oil language while in southern france they kept L'oc language

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Here's a question that you may be able to answer better than me: Where did East Germanic peoples settle vs. West Germanic peoples in Iberia? I have a feeling that answering that will help us here. While I1 seems to have been relatively equal in frequency among the different Germanic branches, R1b-U106 seems to have been most common among West Germanic peoples in particular.

    And if it still mismatches... we'll need to analyze the diversity of I1 and R1b-U106 in different areas, to see if any founder effects are throwing us off. Frequency distributions can be misleading...
    Well, Sueves (west Germanic), who settled around Gallaecia, lived around what is now eastern Germany and northern Bohemia, while Visigoths... Well, these travelled all over Europe:


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    22-03-11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Well, Sueves (west Germanic), who settled around Gallaecia, lived around what is now eastern Germany and northern Bohemia, while Visigoths... Well, these travelled all over Europe:

    half way into reading the book Goths and it states that visigoths means west goth and ostrogoth means east goth. The visigoths never appeared prior to when goths settled in sarmatia. The westgoths where from Scanza in southern sweden as well as gotland, while the ostrogoths where from east german and baltic lands.
    so, the visigoths could only be swedish HG and not east or west germanic

    Are suevi west germanic tribe ? , they appear in history as being south of mecklenbug basically just bordering old east and west germany.
    The suebi where known to fashion their hair in the "suebian knot" which is basically a finnic fashion. But then again , some say they where on the Rhine with the macromanni tribe .........seems to me thay have never been truly positioned
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebian_knot
    if they are from Holstein, then they would have been nordic at the time in question

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