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Thread: montenegro dna

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    montenegro dna

    Since Maciano country y-dna has montenegro missing, i went looking for links to find there dna

    Montenegrin genetics

    38% - haplotype I2a, (western Montenegro)

    27% - haplotype E1b1b, (eastern Montenegro)

    9.4% - haplotype R1b,

    9.4% - haplotype R1a,

    5.7% - haplotype J2a.

    4.7% - haplotype J2b,

    2.1 % - haplotype H1 ( Roma Gypsies)

    3.7 % - haplotype J1
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dale Cooper's Avatar
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    It was a time that someone opened a thread about Montenegro dna :) anyway... thx for results, interesting...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    [/B] 38% - haplotype I2a, (western Montenegro)
    Correction: 38% is for all I (I1 + I2 (including I2a-Din)).

    I see you used Mirabal, Varljen paper so here are my calculations from the same paper:

    I2a ----- 29.70%
    E1b1b -- 26.98%
    R1b ----- 9.41%
    R1a ----- 7.67%
    I1 ------- 6.19%
    J2a ----- 4.70%
    J2b ----- 4.46%
    G2a ----- 2.48%
    Q1b ----- 1.98%
    I2b ----- 1.73%
    H ------- 1.49%
    N ------- 1.49%
    L ------- 1.24%
    J1 ------ 0.50%

    Also, I2a and E1b1b are not strictly geographically confined, though there is a tendency similar to the one you wrote.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Knovas's Avatar
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    E1b1b is very high. One of the highest in Europe, if not the highest.

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    Also: Nordtvedt has remarked that the Montenegrin I2a-Dinaric seems primarily "South"-type, with a consistent "very low" count of "18" at DYS448 (the "South" norm being 19). Perhaps further study might reveal that elusive Dinaric subclade breakthrough many are anticipating.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Correction: 38% is for all I (I1 + I2 (including I2a-Din)).

    I see you used Mirabal, Varljen paper so here are my calculations from the same paper:

    I2a ----- 29.70%
    E1b1b -- 26.98%
    R1b ----- 9.41%
    R1a ----- 7.67%
    I1 ------- 6.19%
    J2a ----- 4.70%
    J2b ----- 4.46%
    G2a ----- 2.48%
    Q1b ----- 1.98%
    I2b ----- 1.73%
    H ------- 1.49%
    N ------- 1.49%
    L ------- 1.24%
    J1 ------ 0.50%

    Also, I2a and E1b1b are not strictly geographically confined, though there is a tendency similar to the one you wrote.

    indeed , your numbers are clearly more accurate, lets hope Maciano will complete his europe Y-dna once he confirms it,
    thank you
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  7. #7
    Junior Member Sergius's Avatar
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    Wrong! Read:

    Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin / Steven C. Bird
    On Kosovo you can find more than 40% of E-V13.

  8. #8
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergius View Post
    Wrong! Read:

    Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin / Steven C. Bird
    On Kosovo you can find more than 40% of E-V13.
    you mean this
    http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

    or
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13/default.aspx

    What are you trying to say?

  9. #9
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergius View Post
    Wrong! Read:

    Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin / Steven C. Bird
    On Kosovo you can find more than 40% of E-V13.
    you mean this
    http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

    or
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13/default.aspx

    What are you trying to say?


    http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b_Y-DNA.htm
    E1b1b fits with the albanians and kosovo as its also one of their 4 linguistic groups - the one from egypt

    2011 papers
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...1/?tool=pubmed

  10. #10
    Junior Member Sergius's Avatar
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    Simply that E- V13 has the higest percentage on Kosovo.
    Check the map in Steven Birds work.

  11. #11
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergius View Post
    Simply that E- V13 has the higest percentage on Kosovo.
    Check the map in Steven Birds work.
    wow a big claim for E ................43% v-13 and 42% for other, still they are both E1b1b

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    The only thing that surprises me is the very low amount of R1a, all the rest is in the norm.

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    Western Montenegro is much more I2a. It is the region oftenly called "old Herzegovina" and beongs to Montenegro state from 1878.

    Old_Herzegovina.jpg

    On the contrary, eastern parts are much more E1b1

    It is also a difference in dialects in these two regoins

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Western Montenegro is much more I2a. It is the region oftenly called "old Herzegovina" and beongs to Montenegro state from 1878.

    Old_Herzegovina.jpg

    On the contrary, eastern parts are much more E1b1

    It is also a difference in dialects in these two regoins
    How do you know that, was there a regional breakdwon of HG in the study?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    How do you know that, was there a regional breakdwon of HG in the study?
    It isn't so hard to presume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    It isn't so hard to presume.
    Ok, i thought the same but i hoped there was a regional breakdown in the study so i could have confirmed my views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Ok, i thought the same but i hoped there was a regional breakdown in the study so i could have confirmed my views.
    As you probably know, there were a study in Montenegro, quite a big one but they didn't public details about regional distribution. One friend of mine told me that eastern parts of Montenegro are mostly E1b/J2/R1b and western parts (red on the map) are mostly I2. They also differ between themselves in dialects of spoken language.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Herzegovina

  18. #18
    Junior Member Sergius's Avatar
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    I am Montenegrin and quite interested in European and Balkan history. Usually I do not enter any discussion about Montenegro with people that are not Montenegrin because it is quite boring to explain facts to them. Mostly they do not have a clue about anything concerning Montenegro. If do have some knowledge it is usually based on wrong info or, even worse, prejudices coming mostly from Serbia or Croatia. To fight against ignorance and hate is a job that does not appeal to me at all. However, when I read all of this written I have to comment and hope to give you some useful info.
    First of all, the sample was around 400 inhabitants of Montenegro, regardless of their nationality or religion. For your info in Montenegro we have Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians and Montenegrins living alongside. Total population is 620.000 and in ex Yugoslavia some 120.000 national Montenegrins on top. 400 hundred visitors randomly picked in the hospital in Podgorica is hardly a representative sample. Therefore, the study is not a big one and regional distribution was not mentioned, it was a population coming to hospital because of different reasons and mostly from the vicinity of Podgorica. In vicinity of Podgorica are large settlements Albanian speaking population. The same was done in Serbia – only Belgrade was tested. Taking into consideration that Belgrade is far from Kosovo and influenced by Hungarian population in Vojvodina, the results are not representative at all. I wonder what would be their results if they went to south of Serbia near Kosovo or Macedonia.
    I do not mean disrespect at all. On contrary I do respect Albanian people a lot. What I am arguing is the fact that Montenegrins have something wrong and they must be of wrong ancestors when they do not want to be Serbs or Croats.
    Also, one curiosity about Montenegrin inhabitants that might be interesting – people that are having Albanian ancestors traditionally are declaring themselves as Serbs. Moreover, they are aggressive nationalists.
    I do not argue the fact that EV13 can’t be found in Montenegro. For sure there are a lot of individuals carrying this haplotype. How much exactly has to be seen in future. I can even tell you exactly where because Montenegrins are clannish people and all is known about the ancestors and history of families.
    It is not division by north or south; neither east and west. It is simply by location of newcomers coming from Albania. I shall give you 2 examples:
    a. Vasojevici – tribal name of many clans. Their ancestor Vaso came as Albanian speaking person to Montenegro and all his decedents are EV13.
    b. Kuci (Kuchi)- the old tribal name known more than 1000 years in old homeland (now Germany) are divided 50%/ 50%. During a great plague I DIN carriers were doing en mass. Orphans and widows accepted Albanian guys, who were more resilient to plague, as fathers and husbands. A century after there was a fight what language shall prevail and at the end it was Montenegrin.
    About “Old Herzegovina”.
    Every time I hear this term I have to laugh. This ancient Herzegovina does not exist. Herzegovina is a term that was introduced in 15th century therefore it can’t be ancient. The territory of Herzegovina covered one large part of the Montenegrin Kingdome known as Dioklecia, Zeta or originally kingdom of Primorska (as it was called in ancient homeland “Pomerania”). Therefore, majority of inhabitants of today’s Herzegovina, including eastern or western part, meaning Croats and Serbs at the present are decedents of fathers that were close cousins and tribesman of Montenegrins. So, it is very natural that they share a large proportion of same I Din with Montenegrins.
    Dialects!!!!
    Good lord! Can you believe that is a possibility to have several distinct dialects in 620.000 large population? Yes some villages are accenting a bit different some words. Some of them roll the R when pronouncing it. But they can perfectly understand each other. To be very clear Serbs and Croats having very similar language to Montenegrin CAN NOT so easy and they have to ask about meaning of same words. By the way, people from Herzegovina perfectly can understand every localism in Montenegro. The same goes vice versa.

  19. #19
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergius View Post
    I am Montenegrin and quite interested in European and Balkan history. Usually I do not enter any discussion about Montenegro with people that are not Montenegrin because it is quite boring to explain facts to them. Mostly they do not have a clue about anything concerning Montenegro. If do have some knowledge it is usually based on wrong info or, even worse, prejudices coming mostly from Serbia or Croatia. To fight against ignorance and hate is a job that does not appeal to me at all. However, when I read all of this written I have to comment and hope to give you some useful info.
    First of all, the sample was around 400 inhabitants of Montenegro, regardless of their nationality or religion. For your info in Montenegro we have Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians and Montenegrins living alongside. Total population is 620.000 and in ex Yugoslavia some 120.000 national Montenegrins on top. 400 hundred visitors randomly picked in the hospital in Podgorica is hardly a representative sample. Therefore, the study is not a big one and regional distribution was not mentioned, it was a population coming to hospital because of different reasons and mostly from the vicinity of Podgorica. In vicinity of Podgorica are large settlements Albanian speaking population. The same was done in Serbia – only Belgrade was tested. Taking into consideration that Belgrade is far from Kosovo and influenced by Hungarian population in Vojvodina, the results are not representative at all. I wonder what would be their results if they went to south of Serbia near Kosovo or Macedonia.
    I do not mean disrespect at all. On contrary I do respect Albanian people a lot. What I am arguing is the fact that Montenegrins have something wrong and they must be of wrong ancestors when they do not want to be Serbs or Croats.
    Also, one curiosity about Montenegrin inhabitants that might be interesting – people that are having Albanian ancestors traditionally are declaring themselves as Serbs. Moreover, they are aggressive nationalists.
    I do not argue the fact that EV13 can’t be found in Montenegro. For sure there are a lot of individuals carrying this haplotype. How much exactly has to be seen in future. I can even tell you exactly where because Montenegrins are clannish people and all is known about the ancestors and history of families.
    It is not division by north or south; neither east and west. It is simply by location of newcomers coming from Albania. I shall give you 2 examples:
    a. Vasojevici – tribal name of many clans. Their ancestor Vaso came as Albanian speaking person to Montenegro and all his decedents are EV13.
    b. Kuci (Kuchi)- the old tribal name known more than 1000 years in old homeland (now Germany) are divided 50%/ 50%. During a great plague I DIN carriers were doing en mass. Orphans and widows accepted Albanian guys, who were more resilient to plague, as fathers and husbands. A century after there was a fight what language shall prevail and at the end it was Montenegrin.
    About “Old Herzegovina”.
    Every time I hear this term I have to laugh. This ancient Herzegovina does not exist. Herzegovina is a term that was introduced in 15th century therefore it can’t be ancient. The territory of Herzegovina covered one large part of the Montenegrin Kingdome known as Dioklecia, Zeta or originally kingdom of Primorska (as it was called in ancient homeland “Pomerania”). Therefore, majority of inhabitants of today’s Herzegovina, including eastern or western part, meaning Croats and Serbs at the present are decedents of fathers that were close cousins and tribesman of Montenegrins. So, it is very natural that they share a large proportion of same I Din with Montenegrins.
    Dialects!!!!
    Good lord! Can you believe that is a possibility to have several distinct dialects in 620.000 large population? Yes some villages are accenting a bit different some words. Some of them roll the R when pronouncing it. But they can perfectly understand each other. To be very clear Serbs and Croats having very similar language to Montenegrin CAN NOT so easy and they have to ask about meaning of same words. By the way, people from Herzegovina perfectly can understand every localism in Montenegro. The same goes vice versa.
    Thank you very much for a great description of your part of the world. I wish more comments involving the region were more like this one.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bosniak's Avatar
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    Well, if you didn't get it then I will explain it to you. The term "old" Herzegovina don't really mean it's very ancient it instead refers to the part of modern Montenegro which were a part of Herzegovina ever since the Bosnia expanded into Montenegro during the second half of the 14 century till it were recaptured by Montenegrin forces during the 19 century. You should know it very well because the Montenegrin town "Herceg-Novi" is self-evidance where it belonged before the Ottoman occupation.

    And I doubt that the population of Herzegovina are descedents of medieval Montenegrins because I don't know of any Montenegrin elements from the Middle ages as there were in Bosnia like the Bosnian script Bosancica, Bosnian Church with it's indigenous Christians of Bogumili sect.

  21. #21
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    I don't understand why u don't accept montenegro is founded with albanian.
    In Albanian Venice the population is divide in 50 % albanian and restant italian and slavs.
    And look where living.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Montenegro.svg
    The fact of ev-13 is confirmed.

  22. #22
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    Many tribes in Montenegro share same haplogroup as modern albanians. My opinion is that they on e were same tribe that is divided by Turks expansion in Balkan. Some are in Montenegro some were islamised and left in current regions of Albania. Story about that still exist. Also amother fact: Vaso ( tribe Vasojevici)is not albanian name, so he never spoke albanian language , he was Slavic,Vlach, Iliric,Morlac( we can discuss this) same as most famous albanian hero Scenderbeg. His faher was Jovan( also not alabnian name) so he eas not albanian at all. But albanian propaganda took him as his own. modern Montenegrians are spread in almost all Serbia, big parts of Croatia, Bosnia... fact is we ar small country now , and exposed to bigger nations around to take over our people as their own. Gennetics will prove all of this. Doclea was beforeTurks and big parts of Bosnia and Serbia( Raska) were part of Doclea, so Bosniak those stories about Hercegovina is something that is just for political reasons. Dalmatians, People from Hercegovina, and Big part of Montenegro, and big part of Albania are same I2a people, divided by religions, by countries.... they are Tall strong wariors, so they were very welcome in Roman army. Also they were moving in Humgary and up to the north of Europe. You can find evidence of that. Hundreds of thoudands of people from Dlamatia and Kosovo. Now they are Hungarians i believe.Montenegrins are part ofthat people that lived in Mountains and had clans andmade Montenegro what it is today. Haplogroup is the key to see who is who.

  23. #23
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ev-13 is not albanian, as they say. It is same haplogroup as vasojevici, kuchi, piperi, bjelopavlici... those people are not albanians. Ev-13 is haplogroup with largest percentage in Montenegro.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsar333 View Post
    Ev-13 is not albanian, as they say. It is same haplogroup as vasojevici, kuchi, piperi, bjelopavlici... those people are not albanians. Ev-13 is haplogroup with largest percentage in Montenegro.
    Well actually Albanians have a higher % of E-V13 than Montenegro and if you want to make it a Montenegrin haplogroup go ahead but you have to renounce being a Slav :)

    So if you're not a Slav in that area then you're either Albanian or Vlach, and a Vlach in that area is a Latinized Albanian anyway.

    As for Scanderbeg's father his name was Gjon to Albanians, Giovanni to Italians, John in English, and so on. You want to make Christian names Montenegrin too? After his death he's mentioned in Hilandar Monastery in Serbian as Arbanaski.

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