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Thread: Do you think France & Germany can solve the Eurozone crisis?

  1. #1
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    Do you think France & Germany can solve the Eurozone crisis?



    With only a week left for Germany and France to come up with a comprehensive solution to the Eurozone financial problems, do you think they will come up with drastic comprehensive measures to create stability and lead Europe onto the path of growth?

    Some interesting links:

    Collapse - youtube

    Zerohedge

    BBC - Greek Bailout

    Economist - Global Protests

    France - German rift delays bailout plan

    FT - 60% haircut on Greek debt

    Trichet on intergration

    Social Europe - recovery before reform

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    My cynical point of view is that Germany has no interest in solving this matter quickly because worries about the euro's troubles is lowering its exchange rate, which is good for German exports. Germany could easily put an end to the crisis, so why else would they procrastinate like that ?
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    No

    personally I believe that they created,

    they put standars to E very high which many other countries could not follow,
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    personally I believe that they created
    ???

    And what about the Greek gouvernement?

    They didn't control their budget...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavroche View Post
    ???

    And what about the Greek gouvernement?

    They didn't control their budget...

    i do not want to say more about Greek goverment than this,

    hidden loans, hidden members, foreign agents, who know psychology of crowds,

    greece if E was about 1 $ could have many exports of agriculture and many currency via tourism,

    strong E made Greece to accept 3 million immigrants at a population of 8 million, from which 66% came illegaly,
    also created expensive tourism which send touriss and agents to other countries,
    also drop the agricultural production, since importing was cheap than working,

    the problem of greece is the politicians, well known cases o rotten ministers etc,

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    Sarkozy bluntly told Cameron: "You have lost a good opportunity to shut up."

    I wish I could have seen that The UK want none of the hassle of Europe but all the benefits. We don't want to deal the Euro-zone crisis, but we don't want the solutions to effect us negatively.

    WE WANT TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND TO EAT IT!


    Article

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    Totally agree with you Edao

    I'm not a "Sarko-fan" but he is right here...

    Cameron don't want to see the Tobin tax in his wonderfull London and in his "capitalism industry"...

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    Yes, I enjoyed Sarkozy's comment to Cameron too and thought it was about time someone said it to him!

    Listening to the BBC this morning there was much discussion on whether Britain should leave the EU. I don't understand the reasoning behind those who are in favour of leaving especially when Europe is Britain's biggest trading partner. Surely it would be to Britain's advantage to have a say in the laws governing that trade than to pull out altogether and then be subject to trading laws etc in which Britain would not have any imput?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    Sarkozy bluntly told Cameron: "You have lost a good opportunity to shut up."

    I wish I could have seen that The UK want none of the hassle of Europe but all the benefits. We don't want to deal the Euro-zone crisis, but we don't want the solutions to effect us negatively.

    WE WANT TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND TO EAT IT!


    Article

    There is a poll on the Guardian website: do you sympathise with Nicolas Sarkozy's "shut up" comment?

    The results are: 78.2% yes
    21.8% No



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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    There is a poll on the Guardian website: do you sympathise with Nicolas Sarkozy's "shut up" comment?

    The results are: 78.2% yes
    21.8% No
    HA! Brilliant, I hadn't seen that, everyone should vote it's only democratic after all

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    they are the last AAA,

    soon France will leave the group of AAA,

    then what? 4rth reich and E=2$?

    all europe Germanic economical empire?

    or France will take the rest countries ? and germany will be kick from Eurozone to DM and 1 DM=2 $ while 1 E=1 $

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    No the European Union/ the Eurozone will only work when the countries can put their differences aside and start to work as one nation. It's either all or nothing. What they are doing right now is just wandering somewhere in the middle and that isn't really working all too well right now is it?

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    Is any one convinced by the results of the summit this morning?

    - 50% write-off of Greek debt
    - Increase of the EFSF to 1 trn euros
    - Slap in the face for Berlusconi

    artilce

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    I was reading today about the mistake of Standard & Poors

    Michel Barneux (or something like that spell)

    ' Wrong e-mail by S&P to customers just bring upside down markets, raising Francais to 3.48% and punch Euro '

    As you see not even the AAA of France can escape the money vultures,

    I wonder what will be done if another e-mail strikes the AAA of Germany since it is the only one that not been 'hit' yet,

    the source is in Greek language, But I guess you can find it in local news,

    http://tvxs.gr/news/kosmos/mparnie-p...tandard-poor-s

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    A fundamental solution of the financial problems of the EU have to do with a sound economic logic, which is linked to competitiveness, which in turn is related to technology and monetary policies.

    The truth is that simple mortals undestand very little of economy, either because...

    (a.) They have not studied Economics themselves...

    (b.) Because they are blinded by the neoliberal propaganda and desinformation that reached its peak in the previous years.

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    However, I see that in this forums there are very few "market radicals". On the contrary, what I see here in Eupedia.com is mostly people that tries rationaly interpret what we see and do not waste their time in blaming blindly "scapegoats".

    I don't know if some bad experiences in the Eurozone could be avoided in the immediate future.

    However, I am sure that many politicians and honest economist saw long ago the economic trends and unbalances in some countries due to the Euro in some countries, and however they had not the authority and weight to be heard about it.

    As Maciamo said: Who is thriving right now? The German balance of trade looks pretty good. Certainly outside the Eurozone, but much more, inside it. Obiously the current system goes in its favor and that is an incentive to leave the things as they are. I am not blaming Germany of purposedly doing harm. Much more, I believe that a solution has to be collective. I don't believe that the solution could come solely from France and Germany.

    I do not blame the political class of countries like Italy or Greece, even when some defects on them are more visible with the crisis. But their capacity to take sovereign decissions on something as important as exchange rate, and therefore competitiveness, was limited.

    But then "Why did they not warned aloud and clear what was happening since long ago?". Don't do they had advisors and experts that could see that coming?

    I guess that their political capacity was also limited. As politicians they cannot fundamentally go against a deep and firmly convictions held by the global media, and the interests of world financial system, that with the time became "common sense".

    Brainwashing.

    In the long term, this experiences have to be taken into account by the people, that has to influence the politicians, who in their turn, should have the capacity to control the economy for the benefit of the population as a whole, and not just for the interests of some banking interests.

    Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    No

    personally I believe that they created,

    they put standars to E very high which many other countries could not follow,
    as a reply to my shelf on who is behind the Crisis and who earns


    http://euobserver.com/19/114231

    Germany has profited to the tune of €9 billion from the eurozone crisis over the past two years, an ING economist has calculated for EUobserver, as investors flock to "safe" but near zero interest rate bunds while southern euro-countries struggle with unsustainable rates.

    "Interestingly, this is already more than the recently announced [German] tax relief of around €8 billion for 2013 and 2014. It almost looks as if the Greeks financed the little German tax reform,"

    so it is the Germans who work for the Greeks But the Greeks who work for the Germans

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    The problem, Yetos, is that the Greek, when they joined the EU and the Eurozone, started to believe they could live like the Germans. Being in the EU is not a guarantee of a thriving economy. It just allows governments to benefit (exploit?) from substantial structural aids to develop their economy. In case of Bulgary, and to a lesser extent, Greece as well (as well as a number of other members, I just take the most blatant exemples of mismanagement...), the funds have been squandered, not wisely invested or went into projects that did not benefit the whole of the population.
    I am a little bit sick of reading the "blame Germany" excuse over and over again. Keep in mind that Merkel struggles to make sure the street doesn't get its way. If it were up to the German people (whom she is supposed to represent, by the way...), Greeks would not get a single cent from the EU again and would have to pay their due up to the last dime, even if it would take 1000 years and would beat the country back into the Middle Ages.
    As for the article you mention, it is about people who wisely put their investment funds in Germany instead of riskier places. I can barely undertand why the shortcut to "Germany profits from the crisis". It all makes perfect sense to me. If I had millions, I would not invest in Greece now. I am sure even the Greeks don't...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    IMO, france and germany declare Financial war on EU countries that do not change their living and working ways/systems as what the Germans want.
    Its far better for a nation to stay out of the euro currency like the UK and have some control over your nation.

    It is far better for Greece and Italy to throw out the euro currency and let the germans and french wear the costs of following the americanization system of Banking.

    In the end, all nations in the EU will be monetary slaves of the germans and french
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    First of all, dropping the Euro would be a huge waste of resource and time that have been invested since the mid-nineties. Second, countries with a weak economy are very likely to be victims of their weak currency, and see their living standards drop dramatically, even fall prey to speculators and see their economy spiralling down. Being within the Eurozone was a guarantee of financial stability WITH BALANCED BOOKS. The 3% deficit threshold has been set for a reason. Weak economies could not realistically recover from overendebtment, as history now shows. Lafontaine wrote about the cicada and the ant some time ago. I bet it was not available in Greek... If Sarkozy and Merkel "declare financial war" on the PIGS, it's because they do not want to follow Berlusconi as the next victims of the debt crisis. They wanted us to have our little EU paradise, but that was forgetting that in the money world, there is no mercy for the weak and only the strongest survive...
    Last edited by Cimmerianbloke; 13-11-11 at 05:54. Reason: grammar...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimmerianbloke View Post
    First of all, dropping the Euro would be a huge waste of resource and time that have been invested since the mid-nineties. Second, countries with a weak economy are very likely to be victims of their weak currency, and see their living standards drop dramatically, even fall prey to speculators and see their economy spiralling down. Being within the Eurozone was a guarantee of financial stability WITH BALANCED BOOKS. The 3% deficit threshold has been set for a reason. Weak economies could not realistically recover from overendebtment, as history now shows. Lafontaine wrote about the cicada and the ant some time ago. I bet it was not available in Greek... If Sarkozy and Merkel "declare financial war" on the PIGS, it's because they do not want to follow Berlusconi as the next victims of the debt crisis. They wanted us to have our little EU paradise, but that was forgetting that in the money world, there is no mercy for the weak and only the strongest survive...
    First of all , I never voted for berlusconni, ever. Second , changing 1 man will not make a difference in Italy or greece.

    do, you think the measures of changing the retiring age for women from 60 to 65 and men from 65 to 67 in the year 2026, will make an impact now.
    Do you think raising vat from 20 to 21 % will also

    meddling in other peoples issues
    http://www.english.rfi.fr/economy/20...repares-resign

    The reason the germans want greece, italy and anyone else to stay in the EU is to save their own skins because they will go backrupt due to following the less prudent banking systems the same as the USA. They are up to their head in loans,
    Italy should pull out of the currency, it will level the playing field in the EU

    Balanced books - what do you mean, they allowed Greece in the EU , when the first president of the EU , Prodi fought hard against Germany and France to keep them out.

    Italy only issue is the political system is wrong, will always be wrong and historical was always wrong. you cannot have a centralised government in politics today.

    A nation can float its own currency and survive , it cannot do it in the EU, even if you are germany

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimmerianbloke View Post
    I am a little bit sick of reading the "blame Germany" excuse over and over again. Keep in mind that Merkel struggles to make sure the street doesn't get its way. If it were up to the German people (whom she is supposed to represent, by the way...), Greeks would not get a single cent from the EU again and would have to pay their due up to the last dime, even if it would take 1000 years and would beat the country back into the Middle Ages.
    Yes indeed, as I've said on another thread, I'm also sick of the blame game, which includes the "holier than thou" attitude of the Germans in this. Germany allowed Greece into the EU in full knowledge of it's loans etc and Germany has profited well and still continues to profit from Greece.

    Off the top of my head, the Athens International airport is a German construction, the Rio Antirrio bridge spanning the Gulf of Corinth is a French construction, the Athens Metro is of both German and French contstruction plus German and French submarines, ships and jets etc supplied to the defense forces. Just to name a few and there is more but, please, enough of the hypocracy. A small amount of honesty from both sides in this mess would be so refreshing.
    Last edited by Antigone; 14-11-11 at 08:25. Reason: spelling

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    I think people are misled by thinking that devaluation of a currency is some kind of magic bullet. It would lead to lower living standards and while it might help an export led economy it's not going to help imports. The default of debt would be a financial bomb that would cripple the economy for years to come, who is going to invest in a isolated crippled country like Greece?

    Everyone wants to blame the Euro, but its like being fat and blaming your trousers for being too small. Pretending that if you could change your trousers (the Euro) you could allow yourself to get fatter and not have to deal with the austerity of a diet to get you into better shape. People are pointing at the trousers blaming them for the problem when in fact it's the overeating which has caused the problem. There is no magic bullet here and those you bang on about dropping Greece from the Euro are offering no solutions, the only way out of this is going to be hard reforms.

    Across Europe everyone is blaming their governments, but no one wants to accept that in truth it's us the people who are responsible. The Germans have a remarkable economy, probably the best in the world, even in a time of crisis they can afford to offer the people tax cuts. The German politicians and political system didn't appear by magic they are a product of their society and culture. Their kids have a bright future ahead because of what their people have done to get themselves ahead, the rest of Europe need to stop blaming governments and realise that everyone has a part to play, because the only thing going to lift Europe from the crisis is private sector growth. That growth is only going to come from dynamic individuals around Europe standing up and being counted by starting their own businesses, creating their own job paying into the tax system and growing to create more jobs. This can only come from the people, governments today are powerless without money.

    Italians enabled Berlusconi to turn Italy into a joke, it took the international investment community to force him out, if I was Italian I wouldn't be angry with the politicians but the society that allowed him to prosper.

    "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." Kennedy

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    Sure! But I think it's a little late for that kind of advice. What can a Greek citizen do right now instead of protesting? In their place I'm not sure whether I would be in the mood or have the guts to create a business right now. Greeks are in some state of checkmate position, paralized, only able to watch helplessly the actions of their government.
    Even if it sounds weird, but what I would recommend for the PIIGS countries as well as some others is to leave the Euro and European Union, uncouple their new currencies from Euro and Dollar and perhaps find a new coalition, after the Argentinian role model!

    I wrote a few times that there is no ideal form of government, as it always has to match the mentality and culture of a certain country. Of course the same applies to economic systems! You can't impose an economic system on a country that obviously has different needs and laws of economy.

  24. #24
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    You only have to look at the GDP per capita figures to see that what happened to Argentina would be catastrophic to Greece.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita


    If they want to be inline with countries like Lebanon, Botswana, Gabon, that's what's waiting for them by leaving the Euro.

    Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

    Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.

    Biggest problem we all face is a lack of growth, in truth if there is magic bullet to this it's growth. As everyone can see we are forced into austerity across the board through necessity but no one has any idea how we create support for the private sector, most governments seem to just be in hope that human endeavour will win through in the end before financial collapse does.

    The occupy movement is completely pointless they have no message they know something is wrong with the current system but don't understand it enough to offer a solution. So all they do is protest shouting fix the problem! The politicians don't listen because they know these people haven't got a clue what they are talking about, for the protests to be relevant they need a clear message or proposal. We want the Tobin Tax enforced now and just hammer home that message across the world, governments would soon take action just sitting about in tents moaning about banks just shows them to be idiots who are unemployed for a reason, go read a news paper!

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

    Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.
    Certainly you know more about economics than I do (are you studying or employed in that field btw?).
    Of course I hope that you are right with your assumptions. Moreover I hope that Greece will be able to keep that gdp ration/growth!

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