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Thread: Map of Individualism (vs Collectivism)

  1. #76
    Regular Member Besir Bajrami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I gave Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and North Greece is lower score than Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek average because these societies are are some of the best examples of collectivism in Europe (e.g. the strong local communities isolated from each others for centuries, strong family ties, strong distrust of the government...).
    I will bring some quotes to rethink the collectivism of the Albanians:
    1. Dr. Herbert Louis (Albanian, Eine Landeskunde vornehmlich auf Grunde eigener Reisen):
    "One of the strongest impressions, left by a long contact with the Albanian population, is certainly that in every Albanian there is a self-reliant man. Every individual, whether clever or stupid, posseses
    a remarcable capacity for deciding by himself and is accustomed to stake his property and blood in a bussineslike way. In an unclarified situation, everyone with no restrictions, whether his judgement is great or small, takes a noteworthy part, while everyone is ready to seize a powerful initiative. In short, there are no indifferent masses in Albania, nor a herd instinct."

    2. Faik Konica (famoues Albanian writer):
    "The lack of the spirit of the flock can be interesting, but it has had fatal consequences for the unity of Albania."

    3. Miss Edith Durham (THE BURDEN OF THE BALKANS), quoting Herodotus: "If the Thracians, says Herodotus, were either under the government of an individual or united among themselves, their strength would, in my opinion, render them invincible; but this is a thing impossible.´ And his estimate of these people was a just one. Philip of Macedon welded the wild tribes into a power, and Thracians, Macedonians, and Illyrians formed the foundation of Alexander the Great´s all-conquering armies..."

    4. Albanian king - Zogu, in London: "It's easy to be king of the 400 million slaves, but it is very difficult to be king of a million kings, as I am"

    5. Henry Noel Brailsford (Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future)
    "They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers"

    6. Lord Byron:"If you want a hundred Italians to be quiet, shoot one. If you want a hundred Albanians to be quiet, you must shoot ninety-nine"

    Note: Albanians are united only in the time of war, or when they are in life danger from invasions, otherwise they have the most individualistic personalities. Another element of the tendency of Albanians to be individuals or equal among equals (otherwise anarchy) can be compared with the ancient Illyrians, who accept to be led only in time of war. Scholar of antiquity that died in 2001 Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond describes internal reports in Illyria as a conglomerate of communities and tribal peoples (koinons), who accept the hierarchy of orders only in times of war, when their economic resources were trapped (ibid). With the same results came out the German archaeologist of the early Middle Ages and publisher of Real Lexicon of German antiquity, Heiko Steuer, who writes that in Illyria the king had jurisdiction only in times of war while in peacetime there was a freedom, an anarchy "(Steuer, Häuptling, Häuptlingstum, Artikel në: “Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde”, 13 (1999) 291-31, 1 298 f.). Pierre Carlier, has confirmed these results even more convincingly in his study “Rois illyriens et “roi des Illyriens”

    P.S.:
    I made a writing about this point of view, but for now is only in Albanian language: https://www.facebook.com/notes/besir...82887388420455

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Besir Bajrami View Post



    2. Faik Konica (famoues Albanian writer):
    "The lack of the spirit of the flock can be interesting, but it has had fatal consequences for the unity of Albania."
    This.
    Konica was an was an extraordinary personality.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faik_Konica

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by knjaz Milos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Individualists are motivated by self-improvement (their own ego) rather than by the approval or respect from others.

    In sports, individualists care more about beating their own records than by beating others. For example, a collectivist-minded sprinter will care about winning the race, while an individualistic-minded sprinter might be disappointed to win if he didn't do a good time.
    Problem with collectivism can be if it is ego driven (need for validation by group) i.e. competitive and exclusive and thus dividing people on members and not members, and building up ego of members based on them being members. On other hand cooperative kind of collectivism can do miracles in team sports or in wars.
    I agree much with both these statements. One can conclude that cooperation and competition are both equally collectivist behaviors, each being one flipside of the same coin. Both are tactics of the same collectivist strategy (excluding altruism , considering only egoism here): if you think you are weaker, then you prefer cooperation. If you think you are stronger, than you dare competition.
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 30-09-16 at 13:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Besir Bajrami View Post


    I will bring some quotes to rethink the collectivism of the Albanians:
    1. Dr. Herbert Louis (Albanian, Eine Landeskunde vornehmlich auf Grunde eigener Reisen):
    "One of the strongest impressions, left by a long contact with the Albanian population, is certainly that in every Albanian there is a self-reliant man. Every individual, whether clever or stupid, posseses
    a remarcable capacity for deciding by himself and is accustomed to stake his property and blood in a bussineslike way. In an unclarified situation, everyone with no restrictions, whether his judgement is great or small, takes a noteworthy part, while everyone is ready to seize a powerful initiative. In short, there are no indifferent masses in Albania, nor a herd instinct."

    2. Faik Konica (famoues Albanian writer):
    "The lack of the spirit of the flock can be interesting, but it has had fatal consequences for the unity of Albania."

    3. Miss Edith Durham (THE BURDEN OF THE BALKANS), quoting Herodotus: "If the Thracians, says Herodotus, were either under the government of an individual or united among themselves, their strength would, in my opinion, render them invincible; but this is a thing impossible.´ And his estimate of these people was a just one. Philip of Macedon welded the wild tribes into a power, and Thracians, Macedonians, and Illyrians formed the foundation of Alexander the Great´s all-conquering armies..."

    4. Albanian king - Zogu, in London: "It's easy to be king of the 400 million slaves, but it is very difficult to be king of a million kings, as I am"

    5. Henry Noel Brailsford (Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future)
    "They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers"

    6. Lord Byron:"If you want a hundred Italians to be quiet, shoot one. If you want a hundred Albanians to be quiet, you must shoot ninety-nine"

    Note: Albanians are united only in the time of war, or when they are in life danger from invasions, otherwise they have the most individualistic personalities. Another element of the tendency of Albanians to be individuals or equal among equals (otherwise anarchy) can be compared with the ancient Illyrians, who accept to be led only in time of war. Scholar of antiquity that died in 2001 Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond describes internal reports in Illyria as a conglomerate of communities and tribal peoples (koinons), who accept the hierarchy of orders only in times of war, when their economic resources were trapped (ibid). With the same results came out the German archaeologist of the early Middle Ages and publisher of Real Lexicon of German antiquity, Heiko Steuer, who writes that in Illyria the king had jurisdiction only in times of war while in peacetime there was a freedom, an anarchy "(Steuer, Häuptling, Häuptlingstum, Artikel në: “Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde”, 13 (1999) 291-31, 1 298 f.). Pierre Carlier, has confirmed these results even more convincingly in his study “Rois illyriens et “roi des Illyriens”

    P.S.:
    I made a writing about this point of view, but for now is only in Albanian language: https://www.facebook.com/notes/besir...82887388420455
    Thanks for the interesting citations. They describe how I imagine the south-european variation of individualism, which I was unable to describe it in words properly.

  5. #80
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    I've just never bought the whole theory. Just take the example of fascism. Italians, unfortunately, invented it, but Germans wholeheartedly adopted it, as did other national groups, i.e. Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

    Yet look at the differences. Germans marched in lock step to it with no deviation, even when it was clear it was leading them to the commission of atrocities and right over the cliff personally and as a nation. I just recently re-watched some films about Hitler's last days in the bunker. They were all unthinking robots. Teen-age boys were sent into battle with barely any equipment as the Russian army was encircling Berlin. Is there something heroic about the needless sacrifice of young boys? Not to me. It's insanity. Kill your own children so they wouldn't have to live in a non-Nazi world? Talk about a herd mentality. There was no underground opposition, no partisan like movement, no apparent questioning or skepticism at all, virtually nothing. It's as if the whole populace was hypnotized.

    That never happened in Italy, nor would it, and it's not just because their loyalties were regional or familial instead of national. It was really as much about ideology as about "nationhood", and no one can totally brainwash Italians. They're, in fact, too individualistic for that. You're never going to get a bunch of Italians to all agree on a political ideology. They say about Jews: two Jews; three opinions. It applies to Italians too. They don't march in lock step intellectually or politically and never will. That has its costs, of course, as it does for Jews. The only thing that keeps the fractious Knesset stumbling along, imo, is the threat of annihilation they face every day.

    Yes, the family is more important to Southern Europeans, and perhaps part of that is adaptation to their history. When the "larger" government fails you because it is a confiscatory system rigged to benefit foreign invaders you're going to turn to those you can trust, which are your family and the close neighbors who are facing the same problems. However, I think there's more to it than that, and it's probably genetic in origin, because Spain, for example, also has a very close family structure, and they were not ruled by foreigners. I just think personal bonds are more intense. That includes friendships as well as family and romantic attachments. So, during the war, most of the Italian Jews were saved by the Italians. Nor would they allow concentration camps to be built on their soil, nor, for that matter, was a single Jew deported until the Germans occupied the country. When they looked at these Jews, certainly not family or necessarily even extremely close friends, they didn't see a "group"; they saw individuals, a mother, a father, a child, often someone with whom they had some sort of personal relationship. That was more important than some "group identity" on either side, or some political ideology about which most of them were skeptical anyway and to which most of them offered a very tepid allegiance.

    As for the fact that southern Europeans are subject or subject themselves to a lot of cultural "rules", yes, they are, but so are all groups; they're just different rules. There's a thread on here somewhere about "you've been in X country too long when" that lists some cultural norms for Germans. They were almost all foreign to me. It's like when you're listening to another person speak: you hear their accent but not your own.


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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    alk about a herd mentality. There was no underground opposition, no partisan like movement, no apparent questioning or skepticism at all, virtually nothing. It's as if the whole populace was hypnotized.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ance_to_Nazism

  7. #82
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    I'm sorry, Arvistro, but as your own link says:

    "The term German resistance should not be understood as meaning that there was a united resistance movement in Germany at any time during the Nazi period,[1] analogous to the more coordinated Polish Underground State, Greek Resistance, Yugoslav Partisans,French Resistance, Norwegian resistance movement and Italian Resistance. The German resistance consisted of small and usually isolated groups. They were unable to mobilize political opposition. "

    The number of such people was extremely small. There's absolutely no comparison, especially to Italy. Even France was more sympathetic to the Fascists.

    Totalitarianism takes over more easily in some countries than in others. In Germany the political, financial, industrial, and even the religious and entertainment sectors all actively participated in the regime's goals and policies, and that includes the Wehrmacht, and the mass of the population also went along willingly. Most of the analysis of the period bears that out; it's not just my take on it

    I'd recommend reading: The German War-A Nation Under Arms by Nicholas Stargardt
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...the-german-war

    The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer is out in a new edition and I think it has stood the test of time very well.
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...he_Third_Reich

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013...ermans-did-it/
    The above contains links to a number of good books on the subject.

    You don't get any more collectivist or "tribal" than this...it was group think on a massive scale, nothing individualistic about it at all, in my opinion.

  8. #83
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    You said there was none at all, but that is unfair to these 77,000 Germans:
    "Approximately 77,000 German citizens were killed for one or another form of resistance by Special Courts, courts-martial, People's Courtand the civil justice system. Many of these Germans had served in government, the military, or in civil positions, which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy"

    I don't know how that fares against Italian or other resistance movements. Perhaps more people died in those countries for resistance.

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    Hofstede fails to understand the link between ever changing Life Conditions (ups and downs, wars, economy crashes, etc) and Coping Capacities (“I am fine until I do not consider that Poles are stealing my/our jobs”), therefore fails to foresee what is actually going on right now in those highly "individualistic" countries like UK for e.g. Hate crimes against Polish people, really?

    Individualism/collectivism is not inherently a genetic trait. We all adapt to what we feel is threatening to us, so if we feel (feelings do not have to be objective & rational) that we should collectively say no to EU, we will, and we will steer our own way collectively, and those individualists might as well be just branded as “traitors”. As it happens in UK: "THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT will force companies to list all their foreign workers in a bid to shame firms that turn down UK citizens" http://www.thejournal.ie/uk-foreign-...10573-Oct2016/

    So much for individualistic country that scored up to 90% according to Hofstede. Simply frightening...

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