Map of Individualism (vs Collectivism)

Actually I see little correlation. Scandinavia and Ireland is more on the individualistic side, but has a low population density. Places in southern Italy like Campania, Apulia or Sicily are very collectivist, but as densely populated as England, and much more than Scotland or Ireland.

True, and Hungary also does not match so well. The correlation is not perfect of course and it would be foolish to claim population density to be the only cause of "individualism". But I'm still sure it is one important reason, because the strong social monitoring in villages where everybody knows everybody limits "individualist" life-style causing "individualists" to escape to big towns where they are allowed to be more individualistic. Reversely, conservative ( or "collectivist") people tend to stay home in the environment they are accustomed to, avoiding risk, change etc. And third, densely populated regions provide more opportunities for individualism (entrepreneural opportunities, cultural diversity, moral diversity), whereas rural areas are too simple (homogeneous) to provide space for every individuality. I think big towns naturally attract individualists (whatever that term means exactly).

In France we could say that northerners are more individualistic than southerners, although this is not reflected in the population density.

It fits quite well for France in my eyes. The high density in the south is concentrated to the east where it is also more blue in your map, so it fits. The remaining southwest has then the lowest density from whole France and it is at the same time the most red in your map, so it fits. When excluding the south-east, the north of France is higher populated and also more blue, fits.

In Belgium the Dutch-speaking north is more densely packed than the French-speaking south, but that doesn't make them more individualistic. Actually I'd say that Walloons are often more individualistic than Flemings.

If true then this differs from the map. If the map is correct then the Belgium maps also match well in my eyes.
 
Actually I see little correlation. Scandinavia and Ireland is more on the individualistic side, but has a low population density.

I forgot to add that, in my humble opinion, Scandinavians are not so individualistic anyway because they often regard state and king like a family and father, pay the highest taxes, are often engaged in communal activites, much team work, solidarity, etc. Germans as not so individualistic either for not exactly the same but similar reasons. I have also doubts regarding Ireland, but I'm not in the position to judge since I don't know much about them except that they like to spend their free time in the pub ;)
 
EDIT : I have made a new map using different colours for individualism (blue), collectivism (red) and an intermediary purple. I also changed the scale.

individualism-map-2.gif

I can see for Serbia it is not real picture. In Serbia is proverb (humorous): Two Serbs three parties. Serbs are strong individuals. Someone does not care much for the other. In some areas Serbs are similar to Americans. For example, lawyers live well in Serbia and in America (they have a lot of litigations).
 
Serbia is more like schizophrenic area :)
Individualism is high, but you can't go against the collective. It's like crossing the mountain in the winter. You're OK if you go with the group. You're OK if you go alone, but along their trail. You're fu*ed up if you try your own route.
 
Serbia is more like schizophrenic area :)
Individualism is high, but you can't go against the collective. It's like crossing the mountain in the winter. You're OK if you go with the group. You're OK if you go alone, but along their trail. You're fu*ed up if you try your own route.

Hofstede performed research for all Yugoslavia and then it was socialism. Since the socialist values dominated his results are real. Communist party members were elite.

But today everything is different, and the people returned to the strong individualistic mode. If Hofstede would today performed research in Serbia, individualism would prevailed in his results.

Individualism is positive but the system must be arranged to be able to express its benefits. As you have noticed "schizophrenic area" it is because people are without social responsibility. In other words, individualism is positive and gives results only if people have social responsibility. Maybe it takes time for people in Serbia to learn to be socially responsible.
 
Anyway this map looks like it's made out of:

individualism= (income*latitude*number of ships)/(cultural and social correlation factor*altitude)
 
Italy one of the most individualistic countries? It sounds quite strange to me. :D
Here there is a strong role of the family, also religious, ideological, (also football fans!) groups are really felt central and well rooted.
I'm definitely collectivist but libertarian.
 
Italy one of the most individualistic countries? It sounds quite strange to me. :D
Here there is a strong role of the family, also religious, ideological, (also football fans!) groups are really felt central and well rooted.
I'm definitely collectivist but libertarian.

There is no way to perfectly define everyone were all pretty much mixes of these traits. I am not sure if u can define how individualistic or collective a country is and i really doubt it has anything to do with genetic's. Maciamo also made a thread how did ancient rome turn into Italians. Because it seems their personality traits were so diff. If that is true it is really proof genetic's has nothing to do with it. Also look at the difference between modern French culture and personality very different from their Gaulish ancestors.
 
There is no way to perfectly define everyone were all pretty much mixes of these traits. I am not sure if u can define how individualistic or collective a country is and i really doubt it has anything to do with genetic's. Maciamo also made a thread how did ancient rome turn into Italians. Because it seems their personality traits were so diff. If that is true it is really proof genetic's has nothing to do with it. Also look at the difference between modern French culture and personality very different from their Gaulish ancestors.

I'm not talking about genetics, I just say that when I think about Italy, I think about other different traits (and this depends on other things like culture or history, not on genetics). Anyhow, you're right that it's not fair to generalize too much, but I think that some differences are evident between countries.
 
I'm not talking about genetics, I just say that when I think about Italy, I think about other different traits (and this depends on other things like culture or history, not on genetics). Anyhow, you're right that it's not fair to generalize too much, but I think that some differences are evident between countries.

I don't know what Italians are like in Italy. But in America u think of mafia when u think of Italian u get what i am saying. And they live mainly in eastern big cities like New York, Boston, New Jersey, Chicago etc. Also u think of food like Spaghetti, Pizza, etc. Italian lots of really good food. I think there is alot of very very famous food Italians invented while in America. I don't know that much about Italian mafi i have seen a bunch of movies and history documentaries. All i can gather that has to do with this. Is their very organized, cold, and smart.
 
Individualism is positive but the system must be arranged to be able to express its benefits. As you have noticed "schizophrenic area" it is because people are without social responsibility. In other words, individualism is positive and gives results only if people have social responsibility. Maybe it takes time for people in Serbia to learn to be socially responsible.
That's true to all communist countries. The forced collectivism of masses was very counterproductive. They've taken away individualism therefore responsibility of individual's actions. In short, nobody cared, nobody was responsible, nobody could change anything. People stopped being responsible, engaged and productive.
When we go other way with over exaggerated individualism it might lead to fully blown anarchy and disarray in the strength of a country.
Most likely the best way to go is when there is a good balance between individualism and collectivism.
I have no idea how to measure this perfect balance. I would say though, that it happens when country is strong politically and economically, and yet citizens are not forced to belong, to behave certain way, and can freely express state of their minds.
 
Maciamo: I have been active on forums for over 10 years, and I can tell you from experience that Northwest Europeans usually don't care so much about what others say about their country, and often like to criticise it themselves. It's a well known fact that the Brits like to make fun of themselves. I am very individualistic and am the first to criticise my own country (I simply find no connection between myself and the mistakes or inefficiencies of others, be it within my family, in my country or in the rest of the world. I don't feel more responsible for the behaviour of a cousin than for a perfect stranger from another ethnic group).

And by the way, Finns aren't so much more individualistic than Spaniards. The gap is bigger between Finns and Danes.

I suppose I found the wrong British people, always with the accolade of BPL like the biggest show on earth, or how great is George Best, or how pathetic was the insular mentality in Suares' affair; and always mentioning that supposed British superiority .

Look at that little fat chap. We'll murder this lot”, well that was really pathetic and the result was a nightmare for them.
 
Great topic! And well introduced.

I believe that individualism is an innate (hence genetic/hereditary) trait of character.

I have to disagree already with this first sentence. Today people tend to blame genetics or use it as excuse for virtually anything.

Looking at the map I would notice that east Europe was occupied by regime that existed and schooled and trained people into collectivism, and have due to that and due to wars or due to being subjugated, kind of slept over awakening of individualism that struck west Europe and USA in past couple of centuries..

I would not say that barbarian Europe was individualistic nor that catholic church age was individualistic. I think it is the matter of historical and religious context whether individualism or collectivism will be emphasized and used as development model.

Saying this I do not say collectivism is bad in all aspects, nor that individualism is bad.
I am saying egoism is bad whether it leads person through individualistic or collectivist way of thinking.


Strongly individualistic people leave the parental home at a younger age, would rather choose to live alone than with a flat mate, have a higher divorce rates, are more flexible about moving to another city or country, and prefer travelling by themselves than with a group or organised tour.

Also strongly self confident and mature people do that.
Maybe mature is better word than being individualist. It is my opinion that in general it is much easier for individualistic person to become mature person. But he or she must find a way to accept and understand people around him/her. And that would be a piece of collectivism on sound basis of individualism.

Individualists are motivated by self-improvement (their own ego) rather than by the approval or respect from others.

In sports, individualists care more about beating their own records than by beating others. For example, a collectivist-minded sprinter will care about winning the race, while an individualistic-minded sprinter might be disappointed to win if he didn't do a good time.

i see self improvement as one of most positive goals a person can have in life. But I do not see self-improvement as ego motivation. In fact for me key point of self improvement of a person is in battle against own ego(ism).

Problem with collectivism can be if it is ego driven (need for validation by group) i.e. competitive and exclusive and thus dividing people on members and not members, and building up ego of members based on them being members. On other hand cooperative kind of collectivism can do miracles in team sports or in wars.
 
Wrong thread, sorry!
 
I gave Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and North Greece is lower score than Romania, Bulgaria and the Greek average because these societies are are some of the best examples of collectivism in Europe (e.g. the strong local communities isolated from each others for centuries, strong family ties, strong distrust of the government...).

I will bring some quotes to rethink the collectivism of the Albanians:
1. Dr. Herbert Louis (Albanian, Eine Landeskunde vornehmlich auf Grunde eigener Reisen):
"One of the strongest impressions, left by a long contact with the Albanian population, is certainly that in every Albanian there is a self-reliant man. Every individual, whether clever or stupid, posseses
[FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] a remarcable capacity for deciding by himself and is accustomed to stake his property and blood in a bussineslike way. In an unclarified situation, everyone with no restrictions, whether his judgement is great or small, takes a noteworthy part, while everyone is ready to seize a powerful initiative. In short, there are no indifferent masses in Albania, nor a herd instinct."

2. Faik Konica (famoues Albanian writer):
[/FONT]"The lack of the spirit of the flock can be interesting, but it has had fatal consequences for the unity of Albania."[FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
3. Miss Edith Durham (THE BURDEN OF THE BALKANS), quoting Herodotus: "If the Thracians, says Herodotus, were either under the government of an individual or united among themselves, their strength would, in my opinion, render them invincible; but this is a thing impossible.´ And his estimate of these people was a just one. Philip of Macedon welded the wild tribes into a power, and Thracians, Macedonians, and Illyrians formed the foundation of Alexander the Great´s all-conquering armies..."

4. Albanian king - Zogu, in London: "It's easy to be king of the 400 million slaves, but it is very difficult to be king of a million kings, as I am"

5. Henry Noel Brailsford (Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future)
"They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers"

6. Lord Byron: "If you want a hundred Italians to be quiet, shoot one. If you want a hundred Albanians to be quiet, you must shoot ninety-nine"

Note: Albanians are united only in the time of war, or when they are in life danger from invasions, otherwise they have the most individualistic personalities. Another element of the tendency of Albanians to be individuals or equal among equals (otherwise anarchy) can be compared with the ancient Illyrians, who accept to be led only in time of war. Scholar of antiquity that died in 2001 Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond describes internal reports in Illyria as a conglomerate of communities and tribal peoples (koinons), who accept the hierarchy of orders only in times of war, when their economic resources were trapped (ibid). With the same results came out the German archaeologist of the early Middle Ages and publisher of Real Lexicon of German antiquity, Heiko Steuer, who writes that in Illyria the king had jurisdiction only in times of war while in peacetime there was a freedom, an anarchy "(Steuer, Häuptling, Häuptlingstum, Artikel në: “Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde”, 13 (1999) 291-31, 1 298 f.). Pierre Carlier, has confirmed these results even more convincingly in his study “Rois illyriens et “roi des Illyriens”

P.S.:
I made a writing about this point of view, but for now is only in Albanian language: https://www.facebook.com/notes/besir-bajrami/shqiptarija-/682887388420455
 
Maciamo said:
Individualists are motivated by self-improvement (their own ego) rather than by the approval or respect from others.

In sports, individualists care more about beating their own records than by beating others. For example, a collectivist-minded sprinter will care about winning the race, while an individualistic-minded sprinter might be disappointed to win if he didn't do a good time.
Problem with collectivism can be if it is ego driven (need for validation by group) i.e. competitive and exclusive and thus dividing people on members and not members, and building up ego of members based on them being members. On other hand cooperative kind of collectivism can do miracles in team sports or in wars.

I agree much with both these statements. One can conclude that cooperation and competition are both equally collectivist behaviors, each being one flipside of the same coin. Both are tactics of the same collectivist strategy (excluding altruism , considering only egoism here): if you think you are weaker, then you prefer cooperation. If you think you are stronger, than you dare competition.
 
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I will bring some quotes to rethink the collectivism of the Albanians:
1. Dr. Herbert Louis (Albanian, Eine Landeskunde vornehmlich auf Grunde eigener Reisen):
"One of the strongest impressions, left by a long contact with the Albanian population, is certainly that in every Albanian there is a self-reliant man. Every individual, whether clever or stupid, posseses
a remarcable capacity for deciding by himself and is accustomed to stake his property and blood in a bussineslike way. In an unclarified situation, everyone with no restrictions, whether his judgement is great or small, takes a noteworthy part, while everyone is ready to seize a powerful initiative. In short, there are no indifferent masses in Albania, nor a herd instinct."

2. Faik Konica (famoues Albanian writer):
"The lack of the spirit of the flock can be interesting, but it has had fatal consequences for the unity of Albania."

3. Miss Edith Durham (THE BURDEN OF THE BALKANS), quoting Herodotus: "If the Thracians, says Herodotus, were either under the government of an individual or united among themselves, their strength would, in my opinion, render them invincible; but this is a thing impossible.´ And his estimate of these people was a just one. Philip of Macedon welded the wild tribes into a power, and Thracians, Macedonians, and Illyrians formed the foundation of Alexander the Great´s all-conquering armies..."

4. Albanian king - Zogu, in London: "It's easy to be king of the 400 million slaves, but it is very difficult to be king of a million kings, as I am"

5. Henry Noel Brailsford (Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future)
"They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers"

6. Lord Byron:"If you want a hundred Italians to be quiet, shoot one. If you want a hundred Albanians to be quiet, you must shoot ninety-nine"

Note: Albanians are united only in the time of war, or when they are in life danger from invasions, otherwise they have the most individualistic personalities. Another element of the tendency of Albanians to be individuals or equal among equals (otherwise anarchy) can be compared with the ancient Illyrians, who accept to be led only in time of war. Scholar of antiquity that died in 2001 Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond describes internal reports in Illyria as a conglomerate of communities and tribal peoples (koinons), who accept the hierarchy of orders only in times of war, when their economic resources were trapped (ibid). With the same results came out the German archaeologist of the early Middle Ages and publisher of Real Lexicon of German antiquity, Heiko Steuer, who writes that in Illyria the king had jurisdiction only in times of war while in peacetime there was a freedom, an anarchy "(Steuer, Häuptling, Häuptlingstum, Artikel në: “Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde”, 13 (1999) 291-31, 1 298 f.). Pierre Carlier, has confirmed these results even more convincingly in his study “Rois illyriens et “roi des Illyriens”

P.S.:
I made a writing about this point of view, but for now is only in Albanian language: https://www.facebook.com/notes/besir-bajrami/shqiptarija-/682887388420455

Thanks for the interesting citations. They describe how I imagine the south-european variation of individualism, which I was unable to describe it in words properly.
 
I've just never bought the whole theory. Just take the example of fascism. Italians, unfortunately, invented it, but Germans wholeheartedly adopted it, as did other national groups, i.e. Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

Yet look at the differences. Germans marched in lock step to it with no deviation, even when it was clear it was leading them to the commission of atrocities and right over the cliff personally and as a nation. I just recently re-watched some films about Hitler's last days in the bunker. They were all unthinking robots. Teen-age boys were sent into battle with barely any equipment as the Russian army was encircling Berlin. Is there something heroic about the needless sacrifice of young boys? Not to me. It's insanity. Kill your own children so they wouldn't have to live in a non-Nazi world? Talk about a herd mentality. There was no underground opposition, no partisan like movement, no apparent questioning or skepticism at all, virtually nothing. It's as if the whole populace was hypnotized.

That never happened in Italy, nor would it, and it's not just because their loyalties were regional or familial instead of national. It was really as much about ideology as about "nationhood", and no one can totally brainwash Italians. They're, in fact, too individualistic for that. You're never going to get a bunch of Italians to all agree on a political ideology. They say about Jews: two Jews; three opinions. It applies to Italians too. They don't march in lock step intellectually or politically and never will. That has its costs, of course, as it does for Jews. The only thing that keeps the fractious Knesset stumbling along, imo, is the threat of annihilation they face every day.

Yes, the family is more important to Southern Europeans, and perhaps part of that is adaptation to their history. When the "larger" government fails you because it is a confiscatory system rigged to benefit foreign invaders you're going to turn to those you can trust, which are your family and the close neighbors who are facing the same problems. However, I think there's more to it than that, and it's probably genetic in origin, because Spain, for example, also has a very close family structure, and they were not ruled by foreigners. I just think personal bonds are more intense. That includes friendships as well as family and romantic attachments. So, during the war, most of the Italian Jews were saved by the Italians. Nor would they allow concentration camps to be built on their soil, nor, for that matter, was a single Jew deported until the Germans occupied the country. When they looked at these Jews, certainly not family or necessarily even extremely close friends, they didn't see a "group"; they saw individuals, a mother, a father, a child, often someone with whom they had some sort of personal relationship. That was more important than some "group identity" on either side, or some political ideology about which most of them were skeptical anyway and to which most of them offered a very tepid allegiance.

As for the fact that southern Europeans are subject or subject themselves to a lot of cultural "rules", yes, they are, but so are all groups; they're just different rules. There's a thread on here somewhere about "you've been in X country too long when" that lists some cultural norms for Germans. They were almost all foreign to me. It's like when you're listening to another person speak: you hear their accent but not your own.
 

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