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    Country: Macedonia

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    Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I sence again that you imply albanian decent from Illyrians, there is no continuation, I'm sorry. Albanian started to appear and were recorded in the middel ages, not before.
    Just another nationalist.
    This part of your post, is provocative, outside the topic (and makes me to react... in this way the topic deviates),and it's continuation of the propaganda that some of the southern slavs and new greeks, not not convenient the albanian autochthony, for millions of devouring reasons. The administrators should take action when we found these kind of deviations, thus promote long explanations (from another member), to make the "question" clear, and what is not related directly whith the topic!
    I tried to post here some of the objectives of this propaganda, but administrators here, could not have been withheld from the gruesome sight of the bitter of that albanian reality (That's why, now I will not post photo from the massacres of children, the elderly and Albanian womens, from the albanian "neighbors" (south slavs and new greeks).

    In this topic, i give you so many arguments (from international studies), against your way of thinking ...but simply, you're not interested sincerely about this question and you dont even read anything in this direction.
    But, let's leave in a side international scientists, tell me from who you want materials, from free slavic scholars, or Greek (the only two albanian neighbors, who still devolop a propganda against albanian autochthony, because they still have pretense to take more from this small remaining land of the Albanians, or if it possible to assimilate all the Albanians what are still left, because their identity creates much problems about the monopoly of historical glory, that is created onerously!

    Ok let's give you a synthesis:) book from a slavic and greek researcher in the same time.
    "The Albanians are generally considered to be the most ancient ethnic group in Southeastern Europe. They are the descendants of pre-Hellenic stock that was pushed back into the mountains of the western Balkans by the Hellenes and the Slavs. In this respect the Albanians may be compared to the Celts of the British Isles who were forced into the mountains of Wales, Scotland, and Ireland by the Anglo-Saxon invaders. The Albanian language is organically distinct from the neighboring Slavic and Greek languages in the same manner that the Celtic language is different from the Germanic".
    The Balkans since 1453, Leften Stavros Stavrianos, Traian Stoianovich, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2008, p. 496-497

    A fragment of the above in a concise manner that includes the thousands years of the Albanian Odyssey. One of the authors is slav and the other from a greek. Both were educated in the U.S. increased, while the Balkan and its bloody history has been the vocation of their historical research.
    I Chose exactly why these two historians is their impartiality, meaning the lack of nationalist passions, of whom suffer no less from their colleagues in south slavis states and Greece.
    Now, I dont want to make you a list of so much other well known slavic and greek scientists, who came to the same scientific conclusions (like the albanolog Milan Sufflay, who was killed by serbs, only because of his work about albanian autochtony... Einstein was the one who reacted more for his murder), because you are not a person who have a free mind, to accept facts and argument. You simply don't read. I gave you a lot of books in the links above, but but it is vain. You are simply a spamer and a pseudo nationalist. From people like you, science has suffered too much!

    But it's interesting to know that albanians who attempt to argues or to clash whith someone like you, is not nationalism, but is simple REACTION, not ACTION. All the albanian philosophy is reaction, not action. And only reacion enabled us to survive, no matter that we are the bigest loosers in the World history until today, in relation of prerequisites that how we had to be. "Albanian nationalism" in itself, is neither more nor less than simply the national awareness that, in comparison with that of other nations, for besides that it is not predatory, or dangerous, it is so unique and also very controversial, that can not clearly define how the Albanian ethnocentrism, in itself mean multiculturalism (globalization / Khalifa), which is reflected in all components of social culture, to religion. This phenomenon undoubtedly has to do with being Albanian, as the older extract the creation of humanity and deep in our subconscious, all mankind may perceive as a 'nation' alone or 'fellow'.

    - And yes, I agree that Balkan nationalism is the worst!
    Only for south slavs, and greeks and any individual (not a free scientist) around the world, who has an emotional affinity with these nations, is a problem to accept the fact that albanians are autochthon in this region and they(alb) are there before them. Greeks started to accept the ties of albanians whith illyrians, thracians & epirotes, but they dont accept the ties of albanians whith pelasgians, because than the credits of this well known greek historic glory all around the world, will be presented by these poor and 'underdeveloped' people = shqiptars (sons of the eagle). That's why Greece wanted the region of south Albanian whith at any cost, and they pay the poor albanians in this region (provide pensions) to declaire themselfs today as a greek, because they know that this region and the ancient culture what still survived among these people, is the heart of pelasgian civilisation, and as a result, that region rised the glory of ancient greeks, which is presented today by milion of manipulation, by this religion state (not a national state) of Greece today, what was created by the european powers, after the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire. This orthodox state of Greece and north orthodox Serbia, was created on the occupied territories of Albanians who accepted Islam. So, the creation of these states, was a revenge against those Albanians, who thought that the better way to deal whith slavic invasions, was the alliance with the Turks, but with the condition of autonomy, to preserve the national idenditity. In the same way, some albanians thought to make an alliance whith the germans, italians... in brief, this "foundling" nation of Europe, whith no sisters, brothers, parents and childrens, like every nation around has, who survived and preserved in the mountains in Balkans, from permanent invasions, the original ancient identity of this region.
    In the other hand, free scientists tell us that illyrians, thracian, epirotes or macedonians (like thraco-illyrian combination), in fact are pelasgians, and for greeks, this race was barbarian (foreign).
    But finally, as some greeks accept the ancient origin of albanians and ties whith illyrian, thracian and epirot culture whith albanian, they also today accept that new greek state, was created from the albanian orthodox blood who prefer to call them self helens, and other muslim albanian preserve their authentic identity(language, symbols, culture at all) as a shqiptar (sons of the eagle-pelasgian):
    Greek constitution in 1821
    This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
    Here is translated in english: clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.
    Also, just like in north, north-west and north-east of the Balkans, that catholic and othodox albanians were assimilated from south slavic population, also in south too othodox albanians were assimilated in greeks, and become more greek, than other races what were inhabites the Greece in that time (vlachs, mongols, slavs, ethiopians...) And when an albanian become slav, or greek, than he did not have that normative or moral code agains enemy, or culture of behavior like an albanian, and with that specific energy and that anger from permanent suffering, that characterizes this nation, they (assimilated albanians), when they felt themselves as Greek, Slavic, turk... they have led the wars against its remaining Albanians who survived from assimilations (because albanians are know like a brave soilders). But, when an original albanian, never take part in the massacres. They have a high moral code in these questions:
    Dr. Alexander Lambert: (Europe sabotage albanian history in the nineteenth century, when Illyria was called the Balkans)
    Europe should be proud to have in her bosom the Albanian nation, which should be evaluated as more tolerant ... there is no case that the Albanians in any moment of history they are no recognized as a nation that has attacked other nations and they never did not take part in the massacres. It is known that the Albanians have to shame to kill an enemy who surrenders... and that many Albanians have excellent running if the empire, whether other countries. Likewise, in his other Albanians have left their name in different fields of sciences in various countries of the world...
    Anyway, do not expand more my explanation, let's speak now for slavs:

    - South slavs are more frustrated from the autochthony of albanians. Today, croatians, slovenians, and some bosnians and bullgarians, accept that original identity of ancient cultures and peoples of this region, is presented today by albanians (shqiptars=sons of the eagle), even that in their population is a large percent of ancient people, who were assimilated by south slavs, but serbs and slavo-macedonians, still don't accept this simple fact, because they still pretend to continue tp occupied or dissolve this small albanian territory what is left (populated by Albanians who continue to resist assimilation), because they wanted their sea. And they worked permanently with their pseudo academics, to atack the conclusions from international free scientists,institutes and institutions of world renown, they are trying to deviate the conlusions of ancient writers also, fabricate new ridiculous stories, deny and tried to stop any presentation of Albanian culture internationally (in that region where Slavic invaders operated), and they work hard permanently in this direction.
    Simply, they used the lack of albanian state, institutions, and interest about these questions, because the primar task about albanians was and maybe still is, TO SURVIVE! - And for albanians, all scientific work in this direction, was realized from free international scientist, who have not had reason or interest from them, to favored this nation that went to extinction (and still is in the same risk).
    Today, for international scientist is no primary task to prevent the albanian history, that's why in internet still is evident the south slavic and greek propaganda. Albanian institutions still dont wory about these questions, their interes is only the politics and money... but whith a few young albanian people today who know to read and thanks to internet (again not our institutions) that allows us access to the books of international scientists, we will re-inform the world, to unmask this racism, pseudo-nationalism against my unfortunate people.
    Finally, we have records of the arrival of south slavs for the first time in these areas...
    Also, we have records of arrival of ancient, and new greeks for the first time in these areas...

    If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
    Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
    ... and thousends of books, from international free scientists, institutes and institutions of world renown until today, that meet, with different methods of study, that are adding more books and conclusions of this level, and now i read somone like you, who even didn't now nothing about this people, to make conclusions whith dry words, whithout any contra argument. This is what i call pseudo nationalis, racism, hate...
    Read in this topic some of arguments from the method of comparison in lingiustic, DNA, folk elements, symbols, physic anthropology, and the culture at all of these people. If you are interested in this question, you should read the two sides, the propaganda, and the international studies in the other side, and make your approach:

    - This is the goal of the refusal of Albanian autochthony... and this is what I call racism, pseudo nationalism, unhuman behavior, or actions without any human or moral code... only to disappeared from the earth this survived "foundling" nation of Europe, whith no sisters, brothers, parents and childrens, like every nation around has, who survived and preserved in the mountains in Balkans, from permanent invasions, the original ancient identity of this region... only for serbs to have access in the sea!:
    In all maps, albanians are a result of expensions (invasions). We have survival history and as you go deeper in time, will see that our territory is larger. Restriction (contraction) of our territory is continuous occurrence since prehistory, we can't boast with any map, except the oldest ones that comfort us a little bit (because contraction is lower).

    Genocide against Albanians
    - Death Toll: 120,000 – 270,000 Albanians of both sexes and all ages.
    255,878 Albanians expelled.
    - Genocide against Albanians in the First Yugoslavia
    Memorandum presented
    on March 7, 1937
    in Belgrade
    - The Expulsion of the Albanians
    - The Problem of Colonization of the Southern Regions
    - The International Problems of Colonization
    - The Mode of Evacuation
    - The Organization of the Evacuation
    - Depopulating and Repopulating Regions
    - The Colonization Apparatus
    Memorandum of Serbian Head of state on asimilation and expultion of Albanians from Kingdom of Serbes Kroat Slovenes
    GRAPHIC CONTENTS: Some of the 15 bodies of ethnic Albanians, what have been massacred, are seen in the village of Obrija, in the Drenica area southwest of Pristina, Yugoslavia, Tuesday Sept. 29 1998. Tensions between Serbs and Albanians were stoked with the discovery of 15 Albanian men, women and children _ apparently refugees _ who were shot in the back of the head at a makeshift camp. They were massacred by the Serbs on Sunday. There was no immediate Serb response. The bodies were seen by diplomats from the United States and other countries visiting some of the estimated 275,000 refugees driven from their homes in the seven-month crackdown. (AP Photo/Adam Brown) AP - (I can't post the photo!)
    (I can't post the photo from the massacre, because of the disallowance from the administrators)
    Massacre in upper Arbri of Drenica - September 26, 1998
    (I can't post the photo from the massacre, because of the disallowance from the administrators)
    KOSOVO: Ethnic Cleansing redux

    (...and "albanian nationalism" if it exist at all, was and is a REACTION, not a ACTION... Dr. Alexander Lambert: Europe should be proud to have in her bosom the Albanian nation, which should be evaluated as more tolerant ... there is no case that the Albanians in any moment of history they are no recognized as a nation that has attacked other nations and they never did not take part in the massacres. It is known that the Albanians have to shame to kill an enemy who surrenders...
    And this is a REACION that makes us to survive and in this time too: )

    Greek Genocide Against the Albanians (there were involved and albanians othodox who became more greek than the greeks and still today the orthodox albanians, declaire themself as a greek, to live better in Greece like a greek)
    Albania's Golgotha
    The atrocities committed by the Serbs against the Albanians at the present time are not different from those perpetrated in 1912-1913, as described in Albania's Golgotha.
    Here (Drenica) are massacred 147 Albanian, all old men, women and children
    (I can't post the photo from the massacre, because of the disallowance from the administrators)
    Mass migration of Albanians in Turkey
    From 'Naçertanie' Ilia Garashaninit - 1844
    Genocide against Albanians
    Masakra e Tivarit
    Genocide against Albanians
    Masacre of Tivar after ww2 in Montenegro ~4300 albanians killed
    Genocide against Albanians
    [Mod edit: Please do not copy and paste entire articles from the Internet. Use summaries and links instead. The article Besir refers to can be located here.]

    Now, let's speak about ancient macedonians... stop this approach and talk scientifically, whith historical arguments, whith "cold" head, whithout hate, with patriotism, but whithout pseduo nationalism... learn to behave like a valuable HUMAN ('The human' this is a big word I think)... people are not toys!

    Last edited by sparkey; 18-10-11 at 17:54. Reason: Redacted entire article

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