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Thread: G2a and E-V13 in Neolithic Spain (5000 BCE)

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    That's not the point. You can consider they are more or less similar, it doesn't matter. The point was you said they contributed to spread Mediterranean admixture, and I'm telling you that ethnic Berbers are 100% Northwest African. So this ethnicity in its pure form thousands of years ago, was abslotuly 0% Mediterranean (the same as today's preserved Berbers). Impossible to have brought this admixture into Europe when it was lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    So this ethnicity in its pure form thousands of years ago, was abslotuly 0% Mediterranean (the same as today's preserved Berbers). Impossible to have brought this admixture into Europe when it was lacking.
    In 3000 BC, Spain would have been 100% Mediterranean and you assume that North African had the same admixture Thousands of years ago. Then I was not talking about ethnic berber but Coastal North African like Kabyle.
    As you see in the map, Proto Berber came from Sahara while the mechta people of the Mediterranean coast are much like the Guanches of the canary islands.
    Today, there is between 30% and 40% of Med admixture where in the mesolithic you could find those mechta people.
    The ethnic berber came from Sahara and therefore brought the Northwest African admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    In 3000 BC, Spain would have been 100% Mediterranean and you assume that North African had the same admixture Thousands of years ago. Then I was not talking about ethnic berber but Coastal North African like Kabyle.
    As you see in the map, Proto Berber came from Sahara while the mechta people of the Mediterranean coast are much like the Guanches of the canary islands.
    Today, there is between 30% and 40% of Med admixture where in the mesolithic you could find those mechta people.
    The ethnic berber came from Sahara and therefore brought the Northwest African admixture.
    I'm a tad confused here. Are you saying that the Neolithic population of Northwest Africa would have been Afroasiatic, or pre-Afro-Asiatic? After all, the Kabyles speak a Berber-language too, and from what little is known about their languages the Guanches too spoke a Berber (or at least Afroasiatic) language.

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    Wrong again, you are twisting all things.

    I don't assume North Africa had the same admixture as today, that's something you already invented. Thousands of years ago North Africa was Berber dominated, they are considered the most native ones to North Africa, and that's why they score the highest Northwest African, I think it's easy to understand, but to make it easy keep this in mind:

    Berber = Native to North Africa = E-M81 + U6 = Northwest African component.

    The 30%-40% you are talking about it belongs to other peoples who replaced the original inhabitants of North Africa. The same happens with other autosomes as Neo African, Palaeo African, Southwest Asian, etc. So Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc., belong to mixed ethnicities, while ethnic Berbers don't. They are a singular people, and they lack the Mediterranean admixture if they are well preserved.

    To make it short: E-M81 does not match any Mediterranean or other European admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm a tad confused here. Are you saying that the Neolithic population of Northwest Africa would have been Afroasiatic, or pre-Afro-Asiatic? After all, the Kabyles speak a Berber-language too, and from what little is known about their languages the Guanches too spoke a Berber (or at least Afroasiatic) language.
    The coast of North west Africa had a Afro asiatic speaking population since the end of the mesolithic.
    As you said, Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language . I admit that this map is really confusing since, from what I've just read, Berber language was brought from the east (not the south like I said in the previous post) by the Capsian (yellow) who were proto Mediterranean people (according to anthropology) and linked with the Combe Capelle man found in Europe.

    So Afro-Asiatic language yes but Med admixture.
    As for the North-West African admixture I don't know wether It is post or pre-berber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    To make it short: E-M81 does not match any Mediterranean or other European admixture.
    According to anthropology, the Capsian who populated North Africa since mesolithic are Proto Mediterranean people.
    Obvioulsy E-M81 makes part of the Mediterranean admixture in Iberia and France hence the absence of North West African admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Let's not exaggerate. The G2a in Spain is very low, and other parts of Europe have much more (Switzerland, Austria, Italy,..)
    Ethnic name to spread over a population there is no need for majority, e.g. same Hungarians among which Hun/Magyar trace is minimal or Bulgarians who have minimal Turkic... or the very Turks among which Oguz are less than 10%..

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    Obviously not, but you should check the population portrait with all the Mozabites listed to understand it. The admixture comming from North Africa and preserved till present days is just very low. That simple, and not so difficult to accept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Ethnic name to spread over a population there is no need for majority, e.g. same Hungarians among which Hun/Magyar trace is minimal or Bulgarians who have minimal Turkic... or the very Turks among which Oguz are less than 10%..
    ¿But there's really (or was) a region in the Caucasus called Iberia? Really suprising.

    I see what you mean and it's interesting. I must admit finding the connection is not an easy task, but ancient G2a could be the best starting point.

    However, it's clear that in genetic terms very little of this survived. In the best of situations, the Southeastern reported in the Euro7 Calculator could help in the speculation of a migratory way, since the West Asian admixture appears always very low. But again, Romans surely contributed in the spread of that component, so it becomes really difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    ¿But there's really (or was) a region in the Caucasus called Iberia? Really suprising.

    I see what you mean and it's interesting. I must admit finding the connection is not an easy task, but ancient G2a could be the best starting point.

    However, it's clear that in genetic terms very little of this survived. In the best of situations, the Southeastern reported in the Euro7 Calculator could help in the speculation of a migratory way, since the West Asian admixture appears always very low. But again, Romans surely contributed in the spread of that component, so it becomes really difficult.
    Georgia was known as Iberia to Greeks, Romans and Byzantine. The name seems to be connected to Beri - the ancient cult of Wolf, totem animal of old Georgian tribes. Historical sources indicate that in battles Georgians wore wolf skins over their armor. Name Georgia itself derives from old Persian Gurgan/Gorgan which Greeks borrowed as Georgia meaning the land of Wolves.

    The cult of the Wolf survives till now in a seasonal kind of folk theater performance called Beri-kaoba where participants wear wolf masks and is quite similar to a scene depicted on 4000 years old Trialeti culture artifact photo of which I add to this post.

    http://www.archaeologygeorgia.com/

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    Oh I see, thanks.

    But then, the name for Iberian Peninsula, could be also related to the cult of Wolf, but in more realistic way. Wolfs have lived in Iberia even before any human did. El "Lobo Iberico" is well known here, and who knows if the Greeks used the same name here too, while noticing the presence of multiple autoctonous Wolfs.

    I can't think in another reason to call it the same, but perhaps I'm missing something.

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    Ber- is a Georgian/pre-Georgian word for wolf, not Greek, so the connection if it exists must be deeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.
    I agree J2a might have an Indo European, Caucasian root and has not much to do with the Neolthic imo.

    Something interesting I found.

    Two Y-DNA Haplogroups are supposed to be connected with Iranic people Haplogroup J2 and R1a1

    J2a:

    Haplogroup J2 especially the subcadle J2a is frequently found among almost all groups of Iranic people. In comparison with the Haplogroup R1a1, J2 is not only restricted to geographically eastern and western Iranic populations, but also found among north-western and south-western Iranic populations such as the Bakhtiaris and Mazanderani,[70][71] as well as geographically north-western Iranic Ossetians.[72] Despite its supposed origin in the fertile crescent, J2a is also found among Iranic populations in the east such as the Yagnobi which are of Soghdian origin[73] as well as the Parsis of India.[74] Beside the relatively high percentage among the Yagnobis in Central Asia, other Iranic populations tend to have a higher frequency of J2a when compared to neighboring Turkic populations. The relatively strong presence of J2a among Ossetians as well as Yagnobis proves distant from the supposed Mesopotamian origin region of J2, are carriers of this Haplogroup.

    In the Indo-Iranian context, the occurrence of J2a in South Asia is limited to caste populations, with the highest frequencies found among northern areas of South Asia.[75][76] Compared with R1a1, J2a shows a more conservative distribution, stronger limited to Indo-Iranian origin groups.[75]

    R1a1:

    Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has been supposed to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[77] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%), both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[77][78] Apart from these two groups, high frequencies of R1a1 are also found in Pashtuns (44.8%)[79] and eastern parts of the Iranian Highlands up to frequencies of 35%, similar to Northern India,[80] while Western Iran based on Iranians sampled (52 Samples from the western part of the country) appears to have had little genetic influence from the supposed R1a1-carrying Indo-Iranians about 10%,to attributed to language replacement through the "elite-dominance" model in a similar manner which occurred in Europe and India. In this regard, it is likely that the Kavir and Lut deserts in the center of Iran have acted as significant barriers to gene flow.[77]

    Genetic studies conducted by Cavalli-Sforza have revealed that Iranians have weak correlation with Near Eastern groups, and are closer to surrounding Indo-Europeans speaking populations.[81] This study is partially supported by another one, based on Y-Chromosome haplogroups.[82]

    The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris river of Iraq to the Indus of Pakistan. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions. These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, as well as links to Europe and Semitic populations that live in close proximity such as the Arab and Jews.[83][84][85][86]

    Another recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azarbaijani).[87] Bonab remarked that his group had done extensive DNA testing on different language groups, including Indo-European and non Indo-European speakers, in Iran.[69] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran. Azaris of Iran also show very close genetic ties to Kurds.[88]
    Note that the Yaghnobis speak a Sogdian dialect, which is according to Heredotus a Scythian dialect.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Oh I see, thanks.

    But then, the name for Iberian Peninsula, could be also related to the cult of Wolf, but in more realistic way. Wolfs have lived in Iberia even before any human did. El "Lobo Iberico" is well known here, and who knows if the Greeks used the same name here too, while noticing the presence of multiple autoctonous Wolfs.

    I can't think in another reason to call it the same, but perhaps I'm missing something.
    Greeks used the name to designate the inhabitants living near the river Iberus (maybe related to basque "ibar/ibai") In other words, it is the river that gives name to the whole peninsula.

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    If you are right, then, it has nothing to do with the (Pre)Georgian "Ber" used for Wolf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    Greeks used the name to designate the inhabitants living near the river Iberus (maybe related to basque "ibar/ibai") In other words, it is the river that gives name to the whole peninsula.
    Iberians lived on way much wider area than river Ebro basin. And it might be vice versa that the river got the name from a tribal designation..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Iberians lived on way much wider area than river Ebro basin. And it might be vice versa that the river got the name from a tribal designation..
    Yes, they lived in a wider area, but the first that contacted with greeks were those living in the Ebro basin and nearby costal zones. As I posted above, the hydronym has a possible match with basque "ibar/ibai", wich means river/fertile lowland. And makes a lot of sense.

    Ethnical names usualy don't give fluvial names; in any case it would be the contrary. However, and judging by texts and epygraphy, iberians didn't called themselves iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    If you are right, then, it has nothing to do with the (Pre)Georgian "Ber" used for Wolf.
    Nothing to do. If we want to associate a geographical term with an animal, this would be "Hispania", possibly from phoenician hi-spn-ya, more or less translated as "region of the rabbits coast". Roman numismatics seems to confirm this theory, by using in some coins the adjective "cuniculosa" (plenty of rabbits) to refer Hispania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    Yes, they lived in a wider area, but the first that contacted with greeks were those living in the Ebro basin and nearby costal zones. As I posted above, the hydronym has a possible match with basque "ibar/ibai", wich means river/fertile lowland. And makes a lot of sense.

    Ethnical names usualy don't give fluvial names; in any case it would be the contrary. However, and judging by texts and epygraphy, iberians didn't called themselves iberians.
    Neither did Georgians call themselves Iberians as such:) Iberians of Hispania were not a monolithic ethnicity neither were Iberians of the Caucasus. One powerful tribe/cult followers could spread a name over a larger union.

    Anyway, I do not claim that it's true, but considering the presence of old G2a in both Hispania and the Caucasus, similar names by classic authors to the populations of two regions makes my proposal at least a valid working hypothesis :)

    P.S. I was just checking info about the Wolf cult on the territory of Catalonia, which I've heard in the Museum of Archaeology in Barcelona. Maybe Knovas would know more.

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    Yo are refering to something like this very ancient discoveries: http://www.mac.cat/eng/layout/set/pr...berian-culture

    The two "Pàteras" have a Wolf head (cap de llop) in the middle. It seems that was common in all the territory wich was Iberian dominated (refering to ancient culture), not only in Catalonia. You can check the text and the images in more detail.

    But I see the two main objects come from Castellet de Banyoles-Tivissa-Ribera d'Ebre (Southern Catalonia).

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    Thank you, Knovas! Fascinating!
    I also remember the guide explicitly mentioned the existence of the Wolf cult and wolf deity among Iberians of Catalonia and one habit which is 100% identical to the caucaisan counterpart, namely Iberian warriors would add as many arrows/lances to their fallen comrade's grave as many enemies he had slayed during his lifetime.
    Unfortunately I was with a larger group, the guide was speaking in Catalan and with my Italian and Spanish I could understand only this much :) And later I did not have time to ask her about more...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I agree J2a might have an Indo European, Caucasian root and has not much to do with the Neolthic imo.

    Something interesting I found.



    Note that the Yaghnobis speak a Sogdian dialect, which is according to Heredotus a Scythian dialect.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics
    Yes especially this is very important paragraph:

    "J2 is not only restricted to geographically eastern and western Iranic populations, but also found among north-western and south-western Iranic populations such as the Bakhtiaris and Mazanderani, as well as geographically north-western Iranic Ossetians. Despite its supposed origin in the fertile crescent, J2a is also found among Iranic populations in the east such as the Yagnobi which are of Soghdian origin as well as the Parsis of India

    The relatively strong presence of J2a among Ossetians as well as Yagnobis proves distant from the supposed Mesopotamian origin region of J2, are carriers of this Haplogroup."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yo are refering to something like this very ancient discoveries: http://www.mac.cat/eng/layout/set/pr...berian-culture

    The two "Pàteras" have a Wolf head (cap de llop) in the middle. It seems that was common in all the territory wich was Iberian dominated (refering to ancient culture), not only in Catalonia. You can check the text and the images in more detail.

    But I see the two main objects come from Castellet de Banyoles-Tivissa-Ribera d'Ebre (Southern Catalonia).
    This would not have anything to do with Strabo story of the Iberian wolf and Gallic horses ...would it?
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    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I did not heard nothing about this Sile. If it refers to a very ancient period, I'd say "maybe" xD.

  25. #50
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    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    According to anthropology, the Capsian who populated North Africa since mesolithic are Proto Mediterranean people.
    Obvioulsy E-M81 makes part of the Mediterranean admixture in Iberia and France hence the absence of North West African admixture.
    What you say doesn't make any sense. Mediterranean is found all over Europe at non-trivial levels and it peaks in Sardinians.

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