G2a and E-V13 in Neolithic Spain (5000 BCE)

BTW those E-M81 didn't have (I think) a look totally different from I2a1 people. Look at some Kabyle like Zinedine Zidane or Samir Nasri. They are white but probably E-M81. ZZ could be taken for a Sardinian (I2a1)...
 
Wrong.

North Africans have that Mediterranean admixture primarily because of the haplogroups H1, H3 and V. The major MtDNA linages in all North Africa, no need to remind their huge presence in Europe.


If Mtdna H1 and H3 were all responsible for the Med admixture, then Norwegian people should have at least 30% of med admixture
 
You refer to ethnic Berbers, and for your information, the ones who really are, absolutely lack the Mediterranean admixture being almost enterily made of E-M81 and U6 MtDna. Easy noticiable while checking the Mozabite's population portrait from Dodecad.

The most ethnic ones are almost 100% Northwest African component. Main Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc., are a different story. They have the mentioned influences, giving them apreciable levels of Mediterranean (but not only Southwestern variant, also Southeastern).
 
If Mtdna H1 and H3 were all responsible for the Med admixture, then Norwegian people should have at least 30% of med admixture
Be serious please, haplogroup distribution not always match perfectly. According to your E-M81 argument, they sholud have 0% Mediterranean then, and the show almost 15%. I think it's enough significant.
 
Sorry to go completely offtopic, but my feeling is that Kabyle like Zidane and mesolithic E-M81 that cross Gibraltar detroit had similar looking. Not far from that of Sardinian people. The med admixture could have been prevalant in those people that's why you don't find much Northwest African admixture in Iberian and French nowadays.
4981704205_86f2bb643f.jpg
Sardinian man

benzema-zidane-2.jpg
Karim Benzema and Zinedine Zidane
 
That's not the point. You can consider they are more or less similar, it doesn't matter. The point was you said they contributed to spread Mediterranean admixture, and I'm telling you that ethnic Berbers are 100% Northwest African. So this ethnicity in its pure form thousands of years ago, was abslotuly 0% Mediterranean (the same as today's preserved Berbers). Impossible to have brought this admixture into Europe when it was lacking.
 
So this ethnicity in its pure form thousands of years ago, was abslotuly 0% Mediterranean (the same as today's preserved Berbers). Impossible to have brought this admixture into Europe when it was lacking.

In 3000 BC, Spain would have been 100% Mediterranean and you assume that North African had the same admixture Thousands of years ago. Then I was not talking about ethnic berber but Coastal North African like Kabyle.
As you see in the map, Proto Berber came from Sahara while the mechta people of the Mediterranean coast are much like the Guanches of the canary islands.
Today, there is between 30% and 40% of Med admixture where in the mesolithic you could find those mechta people.
The ethnic berber came from Sahara and therefore brought the Northwest African admixture.
art580-1.gif
 
In 3000 BC, Spain would have been 100% Mediterranean and you assume that North African had the same admixture Thousands of years ago. Then I was not talking about ethnic berber but Coastal North African like Kabyle.
As you see in the map, Proto Berber came from Sahara while the mechta people of the Mediterranean coast are much like the Guanches of the canary islands.
Today, there is between 30% and 40% of Med admixture where in the mesolithic you could find those mechta people.
The ethnic berber came from Sahara and therefore brought the Northwest African admixture.
art580-1.gif

I'm a tad confused here. Are you saying that the Neolithic population of Northwest Africa would have been Afroasiatic, or pre-Afro-Asiatic? After all, the Kabyles speak a Berber-language too, and from what little is known about their languages the Guanches too spoke a Berber (or at least Afroasiatic) language.
 
Wrong again, you are twisting all things.

I don't assume North Africa had the same admixture as today, that's something you already invented. Thousands of years ago North Africa was Berber dominated, they are considered the most native ones to North Africa, and that's why they score the highest Northwest African, I think it's easy to understand, but to make it easy keep this in mind:

Berber = Native to North Africa = E-M81 + U6 = Northwest African component.

The 30%-40% you are talking about it belongs to other peoples who replaced the original inhabitants of North Africa. The same happens with other autosomes as Neo African, Palaeo African, Southwest Asian, etc. So Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc., belong to mixed ethnicities, while ethnic Berbers don't. They are a singular people, and they lack the Mediterranean admixture if they are well preserved.

To make it short: E-M81 does not match any Mediterranean or other European admixture.
 
I'm a tad confused here. Are you saying that the Neolithic population of Northwest Africa would have been Afroasiatic, or pre-Afro-Asiatic? After all, the Kabyles speak a Berber-language too, and from what little is known about their languages the Guanches too spoke a Berber (or at least Afroasiatic) language.

The coast of North west Africa had a Afro asiatic speaking population since the end of the mesolithic.
As you said, Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language . I admit that this map is really confusing since, from what I've just read, Berber language was brought from the east (not the south like I said in the previous post) by the Capsian (yellow) who were proto Mediterranean people (according to anthropology) and linked with the Combe Capelle man found in Europe.

So Afro-Asiatic language yes but Med admixture.
As for the North-West African admixture I don't know wether It is post or pre-berber.
 
To make it short: E-M81 does not match any Mediterranean or other European admixture.

According to anthropology, the Capsian who populated North Africa since mesolithic are Proto Mediterranean people.
Obvioulsy E-M81 makes part of the Mediterranean admixture in Iberia and France hence the absence of North West African admixture.
 
Let's not exaggerate. The G2a in Spain is very low, and other parts of Europe have much more (Switzerland, Austria, Italy,..)
Ethnic name to spread over a population there is no need for majority, e.g. same Hungarians among which Hun/Magyar trace is minimal or Bulgarians who have minimal Turkic... or the very Turks among which Oguz are less than 10%..
 
Obviously not, but you should check the population portrait with all the Mozabites listed to understand it. The admixture comming from North Africa and preserved till present days is just very low. That simple, and not so difficult to accept.
 
Ethnic name to spread over a population there is no need for majority, e.g. same Hungarians among which Hun/Magyar trace is minimal or Bulgarians who have minimal Turkic... or the very Turks among which Oguz are less than 10%..
¿But there's really (or was) a region in the Caucasus called Iberia? Really suprising.

I see what you mean and it's interesting. I must admit finding the connection is not an easy task, but ancient G2a could be the best starting point.

However, it's clear that in genetic terms very little of this survived. In the best of situations, the Southeastern reported in the Euro7 Calculator could help in the speculation of a migratory way, since the West Asian admixture appears always very low. But again, Romans surely contributed in the spread of that component, so it becomes really difficult.
 
¿But there's really (or was) a region in the Caucasus called Iberia? Really suprising.

I see what you mean and it's interesting. I must admit finding the connection is not an easy task, but ancient G2a could be the best starting point.

However, it's clear that in genetic terms very little of this survived. In the best of situations, the Southeastern reported in the Euro7 Calculator could help in the speculation of a migratory way, since the West Asian admixture appears always very low. But again, Romans surely contributed in the spread of that component, so it becomes really difficult.

Georgia was known as Iberia to Greeks, Romans and Byzantine. The name seems to be connected to Beri - the ancient cult of Wolf, totem animal of old Georgian tribes. Historical sources indicate that in battles Georgians wore wolf skins over their armor. Name Georgia itself derives from old Persian Gurgan/Gorgan which Greeks borrowed as Georgia meaning the land of Wolves.

The cult of the Wolf survives till now in a seasonal kind of folk theater performance called Beri-kaoba where participants wear wolf masks and is quite similar to a scene depicted on 4000 years old Trialeti culture artifact photo of which I add to this post.

http://www.archaeologygeorgia.com/
 
Oh I see, thanks.

But then, the name for Iberian Peninsula, could be also related to the cult of Wolf, but in more realistic way. Wolfs have lived in Iberia even before any human did. El "Lobo Iberico" is well known here, and who knows if the Greeks used the same name here too, while noticing the presence of multiple autoctonous Wolfs.

I can't think in another reason to call it the same, but perhaps I'm missing something.
 
Ber- is a Georgian/pre-Georgian word for wolf, not Greek, so the connection if it exists must be deeper.
 
Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.

I agree J2a might have an Indo European, Caucasian root and has not much to do with the Neolthic imo.

Something interesting I found.

Two Y-DNA Haplogroups are supposed to be connected with Iranic people Haplogroup J2 and R1a1

J2a:

Haplogroup J2 especially the subcadle J2a is frequently found among almost all groups of Iranic people. In comparison with the Haplogroup R1a1, J2 is not only restricted to geographically eastern and western Iranic populations, but also found among north-western and south-western Iranic populations such as the Bakhtiaris and Mazanderani,[70][71] as well as geographically north-western Iranic Ossetians.[72] Despite its supposed origin in the fertile crescent, J2a is also found among Iranic populations in the east such as the Yagnobi which are of Soghdian origin[73] as well as the Parsis of India.[74] Beside the relatively high percentage among the Yagnobis in Central Asia, other Iranic populations tend to have a higher frequency of J2a when compared to neighboring Turkic populations. The relatively strong presence of J2a among Ossetians as well as Yagnobis proves distant from the supposed Mesopotamian origin region of J2, are carriers of this Haplogroup.

In the Indo-Iranian context, the occurrence of J2a in South Asia is limited to caste populations, with the highest frequencies found among northern areas of South Asia.[75][76] Compared with R1a1, J2a shows a more conservative distribution, stronger limited to Indo-Iranian origin groups.[75]

R1a1:

Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has been supposed to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[77] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%), both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[77][78] Apart from these two groups, high frequencies of R1a1 are also found in Pashtuns (44.8%)[79] and eastern parts of the Iranian Highlands up to frequencies of 35%, similar to Northern India,[80] while Western Iran based on Iranians sampled (52 Samples from the western part of the country) appears to have had little genetic influence from the supposed R1a1-carrying Indo-Iranians about 10%,to attributed to language replacement through the "elite-dominance" model in a similar manner which occurred in Europe and India. In this regard, it is likely that the Kavir and Lut deserts in the center of Iran have acted as significant barriers to gene flow.[77]

Genetic studies conducted by Cavalli-Sforza have revealed that Iranians have weak correlation with Near Eastern groups, and are closer to surrounding Indo-Europeans speaking populations.[81] This study is partially supported by another one, based on Y-Chromosome haplogroups.[82]

The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris river of Iraq to the Indus of Pakistan. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions. These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, as well as links to Europe and Semitic populations that live in close proximity such as the Arab and Jews.[83][84][85][86]

Another recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azarbaijani).[87] Bonab remarked that his group had done extensive DNA testing on different language groups, including Indo-European and non Indo-European speakers, in Iran.[69] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran. Azaris of Iran also show very close genetic ties to Kurds.[88]

Note that the Yaghnobis speak a Sogdian dialect, which is according to Heredotus a Scythian dialect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics
 
Oh I see, thanks.

But then, the name for Iberian Peninsula, could be also related to the cult of Wolf, but in more realistic way. Wolfs have lived in Iberia even before any human did. El "Lobo Iberico" is well known here, and who knows if the Greeks used the same name here too, while noticing the presence of multiple autoctonous Wolfs.

I can't think in another reason to call it the same, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Greeks used the name to designate the inhabitants living near the river Iberus (maybe related to basque "ibar/ibai") In other words, it is the river that gives name to the whole peninsula.
 
If you are right, then, it has nothing to do with the (Pre)Georgian "Ber" used for Wolf.
 

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