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Thread: Should Greece leave the EU?

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    Regular Member bertrand's Avatar
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    Should Greece leave the EU?

    Finally after months of empty debates about the Greek crisis the real question is on the table: Does Greece still have its place in the Euro-group?

    Immediately, this question raises a few others:
    - Do the Greeks still want to be part of the Euro?
    - Are they willing to make harsh sacrifices to stay in?
    - what is really best for Greece and the Greek people?
    - What is best for the rest of the Euro group?

    My personal opinion is that Greece should leave the Euro, at least for a temporary period (10 to 20 years). Greece is in the same position as Argentina used to be. In such a position there is no other choice but to devalue to give some breathing room to the economy to be competitive again. Being part of the Euro, it can't do that, and as a result the economy is clumbered. Giving all the money in the world to the Greek will not change that simple truth:
    ONLY A DEVALUATION OF ITS CURRENCY CAN MAKE THE GREEK ECONOMY COMPETITIVE AGAIN

    If Greece were to devalue tomorrow and return to the Drachma, the pressure on the euro would cease, the greek economy would return to its own pace, and the Euro-group could still help them from a much more stable position. In addition, the Greeks would feel again in control of their country and they would be able to do the reforms they wish at their own pace, without being forced to anything by other countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    Finally after months of empty debates about the Greek crisis the real question is on the table: Does Greece still have its place in the Euro-group?

    Immediately, this question raises a few others:
    - Do the Greeks still want to be part of the Euro?
    - Are they willing to make harsh sacrifices to stay in?
    - what is really best for Greece and the Greek people?
    - What is best for the rest of the Euro group?

    My personal opinion is that Greece should leave the Euro, at least for a temporary period (10 to 20 years). Greece is in the same position as Argentina used to be. In such a position there is no other choice but to devalue to give some breathing room to the economy to be competitive again. Being part of the Euro, it can't do that, and as a result the economy is clumbered. Giving all the money in the world to the Greek will not change that simple truth:
    ONLY A DEVALUATION OF ITS CURRENCY CAN MAKE THE GREEK ECONOMY COMPETITIVE AGAIN

    If Greece were to devalue tomorrow and return to the Drachma, the pressure on the euro would cease, the greek economy would return to its own pace, and the Euro-group could still help them from a much more stable position. In addition, the Greeks would feel again in control of their country and they would be able to do the reforms they wish at their own pace, without being forced to anything by other countries.

    Greece is having a referendum in early December , part of this referendum is if Greece should pay back any money same as Iceland had a referendum not to pay England and Netherlands back. so we could see never ever repayments from Greece back to Germany and France...........what can these 2 nations do about it ..........nothing
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Elite member Cimmerianbloke's Avatar
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    Hehe, looks like selective democracy has hit again. Merkozy has bullied the Greek Premier into rethinking the referendum plot, insisting it was a very bad idea... Of course, Greek has not its place into the eurozone, but as it somehow ended up with a membership card, regardless of all the pundits, experts and wizards opinions, so why not try to keep it that way? The boat is sinking, we might as well stick together... We have to be thorough and consider the massive amounts of money that leave the EU every year to assist third world countries, budging democracies and relieve populations after every single natural disaster, and the colossal piles of cash that are thrown into the useless EU structures. The western democracies has had its priority list all wrong for decades, and now is the time to face the bill. The real question behind the crisis is "Are current leaders willing to sacrifice themselves to give coming European generations some kind of future?" The Greek Premier had this fantastic gesture, we have to leave it to him, political suicide has rarely been more elegant.

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    Greece should leave the eurozone (not the EU) for 5-10 years to get its hosue in order.

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    If Greece leaves the Euro anyone with deposits in Greek banks or investments can say goodbye to their money. The devaluation of the new currency would go through the floor making any money in Greece worthless, you'd be looking at a new Zimbabwe, empty bank accounts, empty stores, complete social collapse.

    Their only hope would be the IMF, but the IMF already offered a deal with the EU, so why would they be interested in helping a country that pushed its own self destruct button.(Argentina needed the IMF to recover)

    50% write down of Greek debt is an excellent result at this stage, it buys everyone else in Europe time to create economic growth to increase gdp and get the government and private sector balance sheets in better shape. Then in perhaps 2-3 years time a further wrtie down of Greek debt will be needed to get it within a gdp to debt ratio that is compliant with growth. No one will admit to future write downs because the markets will go crazy, but having 120% debt to gdp ratio in 2020( i can remeber the exact year) with the 50% write down is never a final solution any one with any understanding of the situation can see this is crisis managemnt not a solution.

    The real problem is not Greece but the effect Greece has on markets and how the situation is increasing the cost of borrowing for Italy (which has 120% of debt to gdp). Investors are looking at Berlusconi and the pantomine that is Italian politics and they are not convinced that the political will exists in Italy to get their austerity measures pushed through. Europe can easily afford to bank-roll Greece for years to come but they can't afford to bank-roll Italy or Spain.

    What is clear from the G20 meeting in Cannes is that the global economy is completely intertwinned now and no one is free to make their own economic decisions, this is leading to a break down in democratic values.

    The magic bullet to the situation is growth, if Europe can attain healthy growth figures in 2012 these debt problems will solve themselves if combined with economic reforms and closer intergration across the area. One problem is while there appears to be a political will to move forward this has been formed without the consent of the people, any question of further intergration in times of austerity are unlikely to be met with a yes vote.

    We also have to bare in mind that Europe is the largest economic area in the world and while this process is painful it is needed for future prosperity. The Americans are in a much bigger debt crisis than anthing in Europe and have not even yet started to create a credible plan for getting it under control. Let's not forget the financial crisis started in the American housing market fuelled by fraudulent activity of rating agencies combined with investment banks creating misleading financial products. Even when the dominos started falling the American Governments inability to rescue Lehman Brother cost the world dearly. I'd be less worried about Greece or Italy and be more worried about the freak show over the Atlantic, their political crisis managment doesn't have a great track record.

    Greece should stick it out in the Euro, further write downs will come in a few years and the required capital will be offered to prevent a complete economic collapse. In reality its their ONLY choice. A temporary loss of democracy is a price worth paying if it keeps bread on the table.

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    Elite member Antigone's Avatar
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    Everyone here was shocked at the announcement of the referendum, can't understand the reason for it especially after the deal has already been signed, think it is crazy and many are saying they will voice their objection by not voting but I'm not sure that a referendum will be held at all. The government is self destructing rapidly under the pressure with rebellions and a power struggle going on within the ruling party and Papandraeu is desperately doing and saying anything that he thinks will keep himself as PM.

    It's doubtful that the ruling Pasok party can stay in power with Papandraeu as head, I think he will get the chop and a new government will be formed. Then we'll see.....

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    Well Greece Depth is about 2-3.5% of Europe's total Depth

    if Greece leave Euro is a good mark for Greece,

    But consider what will be the power of Euro if 2 bigger countries leave Eurozone,

    you know for whom the bell talls,

    the best solution is to exit Germany to a strong DM and leave the rest to a more flexible Euro and less stronger so to support weak economies exportations,

    at August the CHF reached the E=1,04CHF yet swiss managed not to bite the hook, and try to returned to E=1.22CHF
    that moved saved her from troubles,

    BESIDES I AM TIRED OF HEARING THAT GREECE SHOULD NOT ENTER THE EUROZONE
    BUT ALL EUROPEAN HYPOCRITES ACCEPT IT


    I am talking about the Goldman Sachs case and the Loan by Semitis
    as I wrote somewhere else Eurostat, Germany etc knew about,
    yet they accept Greece so to make E more stronger,
    and now that E falls everybody blaims Greece,

    SOMEONES MUST BE ASHAMED FOR THEIR SELVES

    just think who made and who accepted the 'white wedding'?

    STOP BLAIMING GREEKS FOR IT IS A EU HYPOCRISY TOO

    in a white wedding both are quilty

    just look at and think, if Greece manage it and leave Euro and succes outside Euro,
    and then Italy or Spain foolows?

    on the other hand what is G20 and who cares, we talk about millions of people about to pass the poor limit because some 'wise quys' support Banking system, and some Greek politician were corrupted mainly by Germans, (Siemens Ferostaahl etc)
    if EU want to save Greece Help Greeks and sent politicians to jail. not Taxing people,
    Greeks do not recogn the moto
    'together we eat the money of EU'
    'together we pay'
    'together we suffer'
    'global crisis' etc

    Greek people say
    I took no money
    I work for my living
    I do not pay tax to save the politicians ass, if you want your money back take it from your lackeys
    tax the banks and not the poverty
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    I like the form and I am interested in the topic.

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    Elite member edao's Avatar
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    @Kualie could you borrow us some money we are a bit short?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    @Kualie could you borrow us some money we are a bit short?
    you put wrong,

    Edao could you borrow ME some money, don't worry the people will pay.

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    i believe after Greece make some privatization, suddenly greece will be next shining star. it is the same old story (see turkey)

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    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    according CNN and dos Santos Greece is already typing Drachmas


    75004-t1larg.drachma.euro_.jpg

    yet is media rumor and officially minister deny it

    source
    http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/1...-can-it-leave/

  13. #13
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    guess euro system was not well designed... Greece is just current location of the problem...

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    Yetos,
    Your post reminds me of how behind all the talks and squabble about the Eurozone and the Greek bankrupcy (matter of time, I admit this is my personal interpretation), there are thousands of human dramas. Sure, millions of people do work on a daily basis and see they tax rate skyrocket, their banks shutting down the money tap, and see their hopes of a better living evaporate. I really suffer for you guys that will have to toil to make a decent living when you were promised you'll all live the high life.
    However, I think the Greeks are letting go of a splendid opportunity to show the world corruption and plain incompetence can not go unpunished in today's western world. It is ironic that the cradle of democracy made us aware of how she becomes the whore of the world's economic pimps. In my eyes, as long as the people who sold their country away and let it sink can get away with it without being disposed of French Revolution-style, we are unlikely to see any improvement coming.
    Greece has a lot to offer from a lifestyle and tourism point of view, she should follow her own path and find her pride again.


    One last thing, guys, you borrow money from someone, but you lend money to someone, to avoid confusions.

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    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimmerianbloke View Post
    Yetos,
    Your post reminds me of how behind all the talks and squabble about the Eurozone and the Greek bankrupcy (matter of time, I admit this is my personal interpretation), there are thousands of human dramas. Sure, millions of people do work on a daily basis and see they tax rate skyrocket, their banks shutting down the money tap, and see their hopes of a better living evaporate. I really suffer for you guys that will have to toil to make a decent living when you were promised you'll all live the high life.
    However, I think the Greeks are letting go of a splendid opportunity to show the world corruption and plain incompetence can not go unpunished in today's western world. It is ironic that the cradle of democracy made us aware of how she becomes the whore of the world's economic pimps. In my eyes, as long as the people who sold their country away and let it sink can get away with it without being disposed of French Revolution-style, we are unlikely to see any improvement coming.
    Greece has a lot to offer from a lifestyle and tourism point of view, she should follow her own path and find her pride again.


    One last thing, guys, you borrow money from someone, but you lend money to someone, to avoid confusions.
    well the only I can answer is that kids ask from Santa to bring Health, cause medicines are expensive,
    and coffins, for the politicians,

    and yet the system and Troica and ReichenBach are tottaly out of point,

    example
    they estimated that gain over 1 b E from annual tax of cars (stamp for allow a car to streets)
    and raise the price of the stamp.
    the result,
    800 000 gave back their number's plates.
    400 cases to send State to courts cause the money according law should stay in the municipal to fix roads, but state uses them to other purposes,

    that means 300 000 000 E less income to state, and money loss from municipals, which are not that bankrupt to save politicians ass,

    and another failure for troica and Reichenbach.

    the funny thing is with Fuchtel,
    he call 200 majors of N greece towns,
    he offered them low cost in design 200 bio-cleansing of Urban rejects projects, by German engineers, low interest loan from German Banks to get money so to take the EU support,
    the only exchange, the electrical equipment should be from Germany (Siemens)
    the answer from 150 majors, the next day, 150 NO

    as you see Greeks are resisting their own way,
    and even the best technocrat or politician can not predict them,

    consider that 35 % of Bank cash is missing, Greek middle and low class took their deposits from Banks and make them dollars, and now they earn from drop of E, with no fear of losing their money,
    at October, Greeks instead of seed grain in the Fields, they seed bags with money,
    and the funny 5 years now the state is an agreement with Swiss Banks to tax and names etc,
    they find agreement, but they never signed it,
    when reporter ask the president of parliament who have money,
    the president said it is private and can not give names,
    but in that case they give names in Greek banks Deposit of politicians,
    By a Greek that lives in Swiss and he is in parliament the sum is about 580 Billion E that belongs to families of about 1200 politicians from 1980 until today!!!!
    while the total deposits in Greek Banks at 2008 was only 300 Billlion E. when at 2002 was about 450 billion,

    in my village in the mountains of Makedonia,
    people have started to produce cheap alcohol to burn in strange working model, that warms and also produce more alcohol, so the money that state and troica were waiting from tax in oil goes bloom.

    just consider that import of Goods have 35% drop with the highest in German food and cars that reach 45%

    the most characteristic is the tobaco-smoking case,
    the tax raised a packet 20 gr to about 4-4,5 E
    Greeks started to buy tobacco from producers with amazing price of 10-20 E per kilo, (about 2 E 5 packets of mixed Samson Basmass yellow virginia and sometimes burley)
    as you see the myth of Odysseas still lives on,
    finding ways to escape,

    as for the political tense,
    I wrote in post that Greek people thinking is changed,
    the yesterday words and ask of President of democracy, simply justifies the written,
    the Papademos case is just a trick so not to raise more the extra left and extra right,
    the gallup gives >30% to Greek communists, and about 3-4% to Greek National sosialists,
    that is a raise of 100% and 150% while the 3 parties that are in modern day gov lose about 50% (from 80% to 45%)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    guess euro system was not well designed... Greece is just current location of the problem...
    I believe the EURO was deliberately designed by few traitors and morons in such a way that centrifugal forces create a vertical structure within EU, which is optimal for exploitation and control by third-parties. It is funny how politicians constantly predicted convergence, quite the opposite of what happened now. And regarding greece, Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said something interesting in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I believe the EURO was deliberately designed by few traitors and morons in such a way that centrifugal forces create a vertical structure within EU, which is optimal for exploitation and control by third-parties. It is funny how politicians constantly predicted convergence, quite the opposite of what happened now.
    The European project for a common currency goes back several centuries. Napoleon was one of the first head of state to have considered it seriously. The euro, just like the European Union, has been a dream for millions of Europeans, a hope of living together in peace. If countries larger than the EU like USA and China can deal with a single currency, there is no reason that the EU shouldn't be able to do it too. The problem has always been the lack of proper financial and fiscal integration of member states within a common EU frame, but this issue should be solved soon. I think that this crisis was an inevitable step in making Euro-sceptics understand the need for further integration. There is just no way that economies as different as Germany and Greece could have continued on their separate path using the same currency without being part of a unified financial system.

    And regarding greece, Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said something interesting in the past.
    Could you be more specific ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I believe the EURO was deliberately designed by few traitors and morons in such a way that centrifugal forces create a vertical structure within EU, which is optimal for exploitation and control by third-parties. It is funny how politicians constantly predicted convergence, quite the opposite of what happened now. And regarding greece, Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said something interesting in the past.


    So if you read Henry Kissinger's and hear him about Greece then you know a lot, If I write about them they will say I am hunting ghosts and I support global conspiracy theories etc, But we know who murdered Onasis family, and who shot the Kennedy's, no matter global conspiracy does not exist,


    Just watch,
    Cyprus the emirates of EU, will they allow it to developed and create its own industry?
    or they all drop for her gas to take it cheap and push a warm day with Turkey?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The European project for a common currency goes back several centuries. Napoleon was one of the first head of state to have considered it seriously. The euro, just like the European Union, has been a dream for millions of Europeans, a hope of living together in peace.
    I have the same hope. We just disagree about the way how the EURO was implemented, and I am saying that the EURO is threatening european peace and harmony now. The euro-sceptics just got their best arguments recently.

    If countries larger than the EU like USA and China can deal with a single currency, there is no reason that the EU shouldn't be able to do it too. The problem has always been the lack of proper financial and fiscal integration of member states within a common EU frame, but this issue should be solved soon.
    But thats exactly my point. The EURO already exists since 1998. Much later now, after many EU countries got into deep trouble (centrifugal force of debt), the "inevitable" fiscal union should come. But the problems were predicted by several experts already more than 10 years ago. There is no common currency possible without at least fiscal union beforehand. The fact that nobody of the responsible persons cared about the serious concerns is suspicious.

    EDIT: Instead they were waiting all the time for convergence, until divergence occured finally as predicted.

    Even Greenspan openly predicted 10 years ago that the EURO can not work that way. Meanwhile the economic differences and interest rates spreads within EURO zone skyrocket like never before. How is that good for EU integration? Euro-sceptics feel supported now. The time point when the fiscal union etc. is introduced is very crucial. It is being introduced exactly now, when problems already have become biggest. But without the EURO beforehand, these problems would not be remotely that big. I don't get what kind of plan that was.

    I think that this crisis was an inevitable step in making Euro-sceptics understand the need for further integration. There is just no way that economies as different as Germany and Greece could have continued on their separate path using the same currency without being part of a unified financial system.
    I'm not aware of so many Euro-sceptics back in 80s and 90s. Even some nationalists were supporting EU. And the ECU was already successfully in place. Most sceptics just appeared recently, exactly because they seem to be proven right. Thats a funny way to convince euro-sceptics.

    Could you be more specific ?
    That is from a greek Magazine, Oikonomikos Tachydromos on 14 Aug. 1997, "Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974". He was saying that "The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame...." Please google. Not surprisingly, there is plenty of discussion and theories about it in the net. Whether that is true or not, most greeks feel that this is happening now (again), what HK was saying.
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 02-01-12 at 17:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I have the same hope. We just disagree about the way how the EURO was implemented, and I am saying that the EURO is threatening european peace and harmony now. The euro-sceptics just got their best arguments recently.



    But thats exactly my point. The EURO already exists since 1998. Much later now, after many EU countries got into deep trouble (centrifugal force of debt), the "inevitable" fiscal union should come. But the problems were predicted by several experts already more than 10 years ago. There is no common currency possible without at least fiscal union beforehand. The fact that nobody of the responsible persons cared about the serious concerns is suspicious. Even Greenspan openly predicted 10 years ago that the EURO can not work that way. Meanwhile the economic differences and interest rates spreads within EURO zone skyrocket like never before. How is that good for EU integration? Euro-sceptics feel supported now. The time point when the fiscal union etc. is introduced is very crucial. It is being introduced exactly now, when problems already have become biggest. But without the EURO beforehand, these problems would not be remotely that big. I don't get what kind of plan that was.



    I'm not aware of so many Euro-sceptics back in 80s and 90s. Even some nationalists were supporting EU. And the ECU was already successfully in place. Most sceptics just appeared recently, exactly because they seem to be proven right. Thats a funny way to convince euro-sceptics.



    That is from a greek Magazine, Oikonomikos Tachydromos on 14 Aug. 1997, "Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974". He was saying that "The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame...." Please google. Not surprisingly, there is plenty of discussion and theories about it in the net. Whether that is true or not, most greeks feel that this is happening now (again), what HK was saying.
    The story of HK is much older,
    it comes from early 70's when he spoke that Greeks are the most united in culture that can resist and survive the most strange conditions, and the more we fight them (Junda 67-74) the more they resist,
    the only case to rule over Greeks is to break their social unions and discrace their race,
    that can be done only by spending money, and turn them against each other,
    remember that CIA had 30 000 agents from Greek-americans at 70's, and how many smart students went to USA from 1960-1980 (about 40 000 brilliant minds gain free studies at US universities)
    the same they are doing now in some other countries.
    told you the one who is behind behind Kennedys and Onasis 'deaths'

    HK is considered by Greeks especially Lefts and National-Sosialists the most Anti-Greek and most hateful person,
    while even the lovers of Junda-nationalists do not speak about him.



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    I think it's the same old issue: No European citizen wants to work their posteriors off, pay taxes regularly, end up paying for less developed countries in the Balkans. I think Greece was never, realistically speaking, economically fit enough to enter the EU. Naturally, I think the same goes for most countries in Balkans. Certainly, I do not agree with the policies that our government is running in my country (I would rather say detest them), and I am very much aware as how things run down here. In Kosovo all of us pay taxes regularly, despite low wages and everything, and we are furious as hell that most of our money goes for buying new cars and private helicopters for government officials. To hell with it, that makes us furious! Therefore, to plainly draw parallels, it is the same with Greece and EU.
    Edhe un nji ditë do t'bohem hí

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrikë View Post
    I think it's the same old issue: No European citizen wants to work their posteriors off, pay taxes regularly, end up paying for less developed countries in the Balkans. I think Greece was never, realistically speaking, economically fit enough to enter the EU. Naturally, I think the same goes for most countries in Balkans. Certainly, I do not agree with the policies that our government is running in my country (I would rather say detest them), and I am very much aware as how things run down here. In Kosovo all of us pay taxes regularly, despite low wages and everything, and we are furious as hell that most of our money goes for buying new cars and private helicopters for government officials. To hell with it, that makes us furious! Therefore, to plainly draw parallels, it is the same with Greece and EU.
    Yes, greece was not fit for the EURO. But GS has helped greece to cheat into EURO, while our EU politicians closed their eyes. Due to the common EURO, greek economy could not get a grip to compete to stronger EU countries, but instead interest rates were low. Of course, corrupt politicians were always at place too.
    The story of greece reminds me of the same story that happened to East German economy during the 90s, after the DM was introduced. East Germany is still mostly sponsored by West Germany, while Poland and Czech Republic with their own currencies were able to evolve successfully. Of course, East Germany had a higher living standard back then, but thats just because of common german welfare.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    EDIT: Instead they were waiting all the time for convergence, until divergence occured finally as predicted.
    Just found a citation of former ECB chief economist Stark from 17.12.2011. His reasons for resignation was frustration about politicians rather than private reasons. According to him, the ECB warned very strongly in 2005 about diverging economies, but nobody cared:

    Vor den Fehlentwicklungen in der Euro-Zone, die zu der gegenwärtigen Krise geführt haben, habe die Zentralbank rechtzeitig gewarnt. "Auf die unterschiedliche Entwicklung der Lohnstückkosten in der Euro-Zone haben wir schon 2005 sehr deutlich hingewiesen. Die Politik hat das damals nicht als akutes Problem angesehen", sagte Stark.

    http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Stark-...le5023056.html

  24. #24
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Yes, greece was not fit for the EURO. But GS has helped greece to cheat into EURO, while our EU politicians closed their eyes. Due to the common EURO, greek economy could not get a grip to compete to stronger EU countries, but instead interest rates were low. Of course, corrupt politicians were always at place too.
    The story of greece reminds me of the same story that happened to East German economy during the 90s, after the DM was introduced. East Germany is still mostly sponsored by West Germany, while Poland and Czech Republic with their own currencies were able to evolve successfully. Of course, East Germany had a higher living standard back then, but thats just because of common german welfare.

    It seems like you can find the hidden letters,

    your point is much close to truth,

  25. #25
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    They should neither leave the Euro nor the Euroean Union. Both pretty bad ideas, economically and politically.

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