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Thread: Some thoughts on Indo-Europeans the Beaker Culture

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    Some thoughts on Indo-Europeans the Beaker Culture



    Recently I have been thinking about the Beaker-IE problem, and it seems to me that it was in its origins non-IE, due to its origin in Iberia (see map) and its continuation of megalithism in western Europe. However, I have also come to acknowledge that in central Europe, the Bronze Age (Unetice Culture) begins without a break from the Beaker Culture. This is why I have come to think that the Beaker culture was not a homogeneous linguistic entity. I would propose that (taking from this map) the "eastern" subgroup of the Beaker culture could be "Proto-Italo-Celtic"-speaking.

    But then this, of course, does not resolve the question: How did the Indo-Europeans reach this region? In my opinion, to answer this, we have to go back to the Chalcolithic; with the Cernavoda Culture:
    The Cernavoda I culture is a late Copper Age culture (c 4000-3200 BC) of eastern Romania and Moldova, situated primarily in the lower Danube region. The culture occupied the previous territory of the Gumelnita culture, part of the continuum of east Balkan tells that had been occupied since the early Neolithic. According to the Kurgan theory of IE origins, the earlier Neolithic culture was destroyed and a hybrid "kurganized" culture involving local and steppe elements was created. The latter is seen in the shift from stable tell settlements to hill-top settlement and defensive architecture (Cernavoda I was surrounded by three ditches), the disappearance of painted wares and their replacement by coarse ware pottery, especially employing shell-temper and/or decorated with cord impressions (both features of steppe ceramics), the abandonment of surface buildings for timber semi-subterranean houses, and the occasional presence of the horse. In Moldova, the Cemavoda culture is attested by cemeteries where the deceased were placed in the flexed position on their left (less frequently right) sides in a pit that might have been elaborated with a timber or stone structure. The covertng of the deceased and the bottom of the burial chamber with ocher as well as the tumulus erected over the grave, sometimes with a stone kerb, are all traits also encountered among the steppe cultures. According to the "Kurgan theory", subsequent steppe migrations pushed the Cernavoda culture south and west where its western variant played a part in the formation of a "Balkan-Danubian complex" of cultures, among which the Baden culture is quite prominent. In the eastern part of its distribution in Moldova, the Cernavoda I culture is one of the components that underlies the foundation of the Usatovo culture.
    Cemavoda II and Cernavoda III refer to later cultures in the same general vicinity, the first perhaps reflecting an intrusive steppe culture and the latter a continuation of Cernavoda I into the early Bronze Age. In the historical period, the area of the Cernavoda culture was occupied by Dacian and Thracian-speaking populations.
    Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture
    This brings us to the Baden Culture:
    Baden culture sites occur in Hungary, northwestern Romania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, eastern Austria, and southern Poland and they date between 3500 and 2800 BC (Horváth et al., 2008) (Fig. 9.1). The earliest phase is called Boleráz and is dated 3500–3300 BC. Sherratt (2006) noted that the first occurrence of wool-bearing sheep and wheeled vehicles coincides with the appearance of the Baden culture. He emphasized that “The Baden culture thus marks one of the major transformations in European prehistory – even if the origin of some of its critical features is to be found outside Europe, and indeed can be traced back beyond to the areas which saw the beginnings of writing and city-life,”...
    S. Milisauskas, European Prehistory (2011)
    The Baden culture is frequently discussed in association with the spread of Indo-Europeans because it possesses a number of cultural traits that have been regarded as diagnostic markers of IE society: the (occasional) use of small fortified settlements, houses with apsidal ends (suggesting a pastoral ancestry), wheeled vehicles, clay vessels suggesting both drinking sets (in containers whose use has been associated with the consumption of dairy products or alcoholic beverages, sexual dimorphism in burial rite with males interred on their right sides and females on their left, and cult vessels displaying solar symbols. Within the Kurgan model of IE origins, the Baden culture is seen to serve as a vehicle for its expansion and consolidation in the central Balkans while those supporting a central European homeland seek the genetic roots of the Baden culture in the earlier TRB and linear Ware cultures. The bearers of the Baden culture have been variously identified with speakers of languages ancestral to the Celtic, Italic, Illyrian and Venetic languages.
    EIEC
    After the Baden Culture, Central Europe (see chart) was briefly influenced by the Corded Ware culture (in the strict sense of the term, see map):


    So, in conclusion, there is in my opinion strong evidence for the affiliation of proto-Italo-Celtic speakers with the eastern part of the Beaker Culture.
    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    So, in conclusion, there is in my opinion strong evidence for the affiliation of proto-Italo-Celtic speakers with the eastern part of the Beaker Culture.
    What do you think?
    I can't believe I still don't have a strong opinion on this! But I do think that ancient Y-DNA will resolve this question better than our speculation can.

    I will say that your thoughts approximate my first guess, based on the direction of the spread of Beaker Culture and the overlap with apparent R1b-S116 launching points into Western Europe. It seems too West-to-East to be exclusively, or a majority, Italo-Celtic, but it's difficult to explain the spread of R1b-S116 without it. So an introduction of IE via a late part of it actually makes a lot of sense.

    I thought Jean Manco had an interesting recent counterpoint to the thought that Beaker Culture spread West-to-East, though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Manco
    Yes but Bell Beaker Culture sprang from the Yamnaya Culture of the European Steppe. It is only the details of the Beaker ceramics that appear first in Portugal (after the arrival of copper workers from the east). All the rest of the culture, such as metallurgy, came from the east. In fact the ceramics themselves are similar to some from the steppe. See Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I can't believe I still don't have a strong opinion on this! But I do think that ancient Y-DNA will resolve this question better than our speculation can.

    I will say that your thoughts approximate my first guess, based on the direction of the spread of Beaker Culture and the overlap with apparent R1b-S116 launching points into Western Europe. It seems too West-to-East to be exclusively, or a majority, Italo-Celtic, but it's difficult to explain the spread of R1b-S116 without it. So an introduction of IE via a late part of it actually makes a lot of sense.

    I thought Jean Manco had an interesting recent counterpoint to the thought that Beaker Culture spread West-to-East, though:

    If the Bell Beaker spread R1b S116 and are indeed of Yamna origin then it means that Yamna tribes were R1b too which also implies that all the culture that spread from Yamna (Corded ware, Andronovo) should have R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    If the Bell Beaker spread R1b S116 and are indeed of Yamna origin then it means that Yamna tribes were R1b too which also implies that all the culture that spread from Yamna (Corded ware, Andronovo) should have R1b.
    Indeed. As we know, however both Corded Ware and Andronovo were R1a instead.

    Otherwise, in the other thead I posted this map of the overlap of Beaker-Bell and Corded Ware, which is also visible in this table:



    BeakerSmall.jpg

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    Although I share some points of view with Jean Manco regarding the Bell Beaker issue, her theories are too simplistic.
    For instance, nobody in the archeological community asserts that Bell Beaker sprang from Yamnaya. This is just one of the Hypothesis.

    Yes but Bell Beaker Culture sprang from the Yamnaya Culture of the European Steppe.
    It is only the details of the Beaker ceramics that appear first in Portugal (after the arrival of copper workers from the east). All the rest of the culture, such as metallurgy, came from the east.
    Indeed, but the culture of Ötzi (G2a) also brought copper into Europe.

    Actually, her Stelae people theory also assumes that it all began in the Pontic steppe near the sea of Azov while those stelae are older in Neolithic southern France. As I already said, Neolithic Treilles people also made those stelae and none of them has been tested R1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Indeed. As we know, however both Corded Ware and Andronovo were R1a instead.

    Otherwise, in the other thead I posted this map of the overlap of Beaker-Bell and Corded Ware, which is also visible in this table:



    BeakerSmall.jpg
    Very true, but in Central Europe I think the Corded Ware was more peripheral, probably rendering only an influence in their material culture rather than linguistically or migrationally.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Actually, her Stelae people theory also assumes that it all began in the Pontic steppe near the sea of Azov while those stelae are older in Neolithic southern France. As I already said, Neolithic Treilles people also made those stelae and none of them has been tested R1b
    Exactly, and stelae are not a very precise ethnic marker, for example, the Pictish stelae are not in any way related to the contemporary Khöshöö Tsaidam stelae in Mongolia (although they were made at around the same time)
    All the rest of the culture, such as metallurgy, came from the east.
    This is false. Already the Iberian culture of Los Millares (late 4th millenium BC)was Chalcolithic.
    Correction: It was Chalcolithic, but only after c. 3000 BC. Still, my point remains: Metallurgy did not arrive to Iberia from the Central European Beaker folk:

    As can be seen from this image and chart, there was metallurgy in the west Mediterranean before the Beaker Culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    If the Bell Beaker spread R1b S116 and are indeed of Yamna origin then it means that Yamna tribes were R1b too which also implies that all the culture that spread from Yamna (Corded ware, Andronovo) should have R1b.
    Actually not, because the Yamna culture was divided in two groups : the southern Steppe group (R1b), and the northern Forest-Steppe group (R1a). The former apparently came from Anatolia via the North Caucasus. The latter was an indigenous hunter-gatherer group, which acquired its Bronze Age technology and livestock from the R1b newcomers. The Corded Ware and Sintashta (precursor of Andronovo) had their roots in the forest steppe.

    Naturally there was some level of amalgamation between the two groups (especially from the R1b/G2a3b1 into the R1a group) , which explains why we find a minority of R1b1b and G2a3b1 in every R1a-conquered territory, be it in Russia, Central Asia or South Asia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Recently I have been thinking about the Beaker-IE problem, and it seems to me that it was in its origins non-IE, due to its origin in Iberia (see map) and its continuation of megalithism in western Europe. However, I have also come to acknowledge that in central Europe, the Bronze Age (Unetice Culture) begins without a break from the Beaker Culture.
    You should be careful when you say that one culture follows another "without a break". Even if it is true chronologically, it doesn't mean that the two are related, nor that two cultures didn't juxtapose or superimpose one another. Let me take the example of the Printed Cardium Pottery and the Megalithic cultures. When Neolithic farmers arrived in the Western Mediterranean, archaeological maps start showing "Printed Cardium Pottery". However that doesn't mean that the local hunter-gatherers disappeared or moved away. They probably continued to live side-by-side for a while, and the two cultures even seem to have merged at some point. The Megalithic culture started in the Mesolithic (mostly with standing stones), but was continued after the adoption of farming (introducing dolmens and passage tombs) and spread to areas that were already part of the Neolithic Printed Cardium Pottery. It's very difficult to show on a map the progressive merger of two cultures, especially if the diffusion happened in two different directions and at different speeds. On my migration maps I show the superimposition of two cultures with dots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    But then this, of course, does not resolve the question: How did the Indo-Europeans reach this region? In my opinion, to answer this, we have to go back to the Chalcolithic; with the Cernavoda Culture:
    I agree that the first Indo-European/R1b progression into the Balkans was with Cernavoda and other related cultures. This is basically what I wrote in my R1b history (look for the European branch section) 2 years ago.

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    The bearers of the Baden culture have been variously identified with speakers of languages ancestral to the Celtic, Italic, Illyrian and Venetic languages.
    Does it mean that the split with Germanic languages predates the Baden culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Very true, but in Central Europe I think the Corded Ware was more peripheral, probably rendering only an influence in their material culture rather than linguistically or migrationally.
    The question is, however, what do you make of the Battle Axe Culture in Scandinavia, which is generally considered an offshot of Corded Ware?

    Exactly, and stelae are not a very precise ethnic marker, for example, the Pictish stelae are not in any way related to the contemporary Khöshöö Tsaidam stelae in Mongolia (although they were made at around the same time)
    I'm very sceptical that the 'stelae people' concept is real, anyways, at least by the usually proposed route, because we're missing stelae at critical parts.

    This is false. Already the Iberian culture of Los Millares (late 4th millenium BC)was Chalcolithic.
    Correction: It was Chalcolithic, but only after c. 3000 BC. Still, my point remains: Metallurgy did not arrive to Iberia from the Central European Beaker folk:

    As can be seen from this image and chart, there was metallurgy in the west Mediterranean before the Beaker Culture.
    My point exactly. This scenario would perfectly explain why Basque looks like a language from the age of metal, because it was one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Actually not, because the Yamna culture was divided in two groups : the southern Steppe group (R1b), and the northern Forest-Steppe group (R1a). The former apparently came from Anatolia via the North Caucasus. The latter was an indigenous hunter-gatherer group, which acquired its Bronze Age technology and livestock from the R1b newcomers. The Corded Ware and Sintashta (precursor of Andronovo) had their roots in the forest steppe.

    Naturally there was some level of amalgamation between the two groups (especially from the R1b/G2a3b1 into the R1a group) , which explains why we find a minority of R1b1b and G2a3b1 in every R1a-conquered territory, be it in Russia, Central Asia or South Asia.
    IMHO you're confusing R1b with J2. According to me you falsely integrated the J2 history into the R1b one. What you're doing is actually twisting the facts!

    According to your own data there is only 4 % of R1b in Ukraine, and most of it is in the west. While there's is at least 6.5% of J2 in Ukraine, and there is also West Asian G2, T & J1 in Southern Ukraine.

    Even nowadays there's MUCH MORE J2 in the Northern Caucasus area than R1b!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You should be careful when you say that one culture follows another "without a break". Even if it is true chronologically, it doesn't mean that the two are related, nor that two cultures didn't juxtapose or superimpose one another. Let me take the example of the Printed Cardium Pottery and the Megalithic cultures. When Neolithic farmers arrived in the Western Mediterranean, archaeological maps start showing "Printed Cardium Pottery". However that doesn't mean that the local hunter-gatherers disappeared or moved away. They probably continued to live side-by-side for a while, and the two cultures even seem to have merged at some point. The Megalithic culture started in the Mesolithic (mostly with standing stones), but was continued after the adoption of farming (introducing dolmens and passage tombs) and spread to areas that were already part of the Neolithic Printed Cardium Pottery. It's very difficult to show on a map the progressive merger of two cultures, especially if the diffusion happened in two different directions and at different speeds. On my migration maps I show the superimposition of two cultures with dots.
    Definetely. But what I mean is that there does not seem to be a rupture in the archaeological record that could suggest a migration or invation: The Beaker material culture evolves smoothly into the Unetice culture, without much indication of an invasion/migration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree that the first Indo-European/R1b progression into the Balkans was with Cernavoda and other related cultures. This is basically what I wrote in my R1b history (look for the European branch section) 2 years ago.
    Yes, the only part I don't agree with is this one:
    It is doubtful that the Beaker culture (2800-1900 BCE) was already Indo-European (although they were influenced by the Corded Ware culture), because they were the continuity of the native Megalithic cultures. It is more likely that the beakers and horses found across western Europe during that period were the result of trade with neighbouring Indo-European cultures, including the first wave of R1b into central Europe. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that the following Unetice (2300-1600 BCE), Tumulus (1600-1200 BCE), Urnfield (1300-1200 BCE) and Hallstatt(1200-750) cultures were linked to the spread of R1b to Europe, as they abruptly introduce new technologies and a radically different lifestyle.
    To begin with, there never was a megalithic tradition in Central Europe:

    And also, as I said earlier, there does not seem to be a rupture between the Unetice and Beaker cultures. So my conclusion is that R1b (IE) was there before the Beakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Does it mean that the split with Germanic languages predates the Baden culture?
    Yes and no. Take a look at this genealogical tree of IE, for example:

    As we can see here, Italo-Celtic (although in here not treated as a linguistic subphylum) is often thought to have split rather early from PIE. We can also see, however, that Italo-Celtic has many lexical similarities with Germanic. This may represent the Corded Ware (Germanic) contribution to the Baden (Italo-Celtic) dialects of PIE (because dialects they probably were at that time), and vice-versa. The same applies to Taranis' question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The question is, however, what do you make of the Battle Axe Culture in Scandinavia, which is generally considered an offshot of Corded Ware?

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    If they refine this new kind of methodology many theories about evolution of particular language families will be challenged.
    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feat...80%99s_Tongues

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    If they refine this new kind of methodology many theories about evolution of particular language families will be challenged.
    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feat...in’s_Tongues
    Hmm, lexicostatistics has been widely discredited by mainstream linguistics, and not for good reason. For example, a study by Quentin Atkinson (which this article mentions) suggests Proto-Celtic split from PIE 8000-10000 BP...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Hmm, lexicostatistics has been widely discredited by mainstream linguistics, and not for good reason. For example, a study by Quentin Atkinson (which this article mentions) suggests Proto-Celtic split from PIE 8000-10000 BP...
    I agree, glottochronology has been largely discredited. It makes some false assumptions about the evolution of languages (ie that there is constant rate of replacement/changes in languages) which can actually be disproven from historically attested language changes (for instance, examples of fast language evolution would be the changes from Latin to Old French, or from Archaic Irish to Old Irish... and of slow evolution would be Classical Greek versus Modern Greek).

    The Proto-Celtic example is particularly good because if we look at the core vocabulary of Indo-European (which includes terms for horses, cattle, agriculture and metal-working), it is clear that the Proto-Indo-European language cannot be older than the Chalcolithic. That means, even if we (optimistically!) assume that indeed Proto-Celtic diverged from PIE in the earliest Chalcolithic for example, this is still many thousands years after Atkinson's proposed date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Proto-Celtic example is particularly good because if we look at the core vocabulary of Indo-European (which includes terms for horses, cattle, agriculture and metal-working), it is clear that the Proto-Indo-European language cannot be older than the Chalcolithic. That means, even if we (optimistically!) assume that indeed Proto-Celtic diverged from PIE in the earliest Chalcolithic for example, this is still many thousands years after Atkinson's proposed date.
    Have you ever heard about the loanwords? For instance, Dutch, English have a lot French loanwords.

    Why can't Centum languages have Satem loanwords and vice versa?

    Maybe names for horses, cattle, agriculture and metal-working the Centum group took it from somebody else be it from the Satem group be it from some other group!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Have you ever heard about the loanwords? For instance, Dutch, English have a lot French loanwords.

    Why can't Centum languages have Satem loanwords and vice versa?

    Maybe names for horses, cattle, agriculture and metal-working the Centum group took it from somebody else be it from the Satem group be it from some other group!
    Then why do they follow the Centum sound laws?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Then why do they follow the Centum sound laws?
    maybe because this happened many thousands years ago. And somehow those Centum folks Centumized the Satem loanwords. Or maybe Satem folks Satemized Centum loanwords etc. Everything is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Have you ever heard about the loanwords? For instance, Dutch, English have a lot French loanwords.

    Why can't Centum languages have Satem loanwords and vice versa?

    Maybe names for horses, cattle, agriculture and metal-working the Centum group took it from somebody else be it from the Satem group be it from some other group!
    If the words in question were all loanwords, why do they, without exception, obey to the sound laws of the respective language family?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    maybe because this happened many thousands years ago. And somehow those Centum folks Centumized the Satem loanwords. Or maybe Satem folks Satemized Centum loanwords etc. Everything is possible.
    Not everything is possible. The neogrammarian hypothesis states that sound laws have no exceptions. If they seemingly have exceptions, these are conditioned by their own set of rules. The comparative method has, in around 130-150 years or so of usage, shown that the neogrammarian hypothesis is correct.

    Granted, there are some Centum/Satem loanwords in individual languages (for instance, Proto-Slavic borrows from Germanic), but you don't adopt them for every word across the board. That is not possible. If we take the word for "horse", you get the idea of this:

    PIE ek´wos

    Latin - Equus

    Linear-B - "I-Qo"
    Modern Greek - Hippo

    Old Irish - Ech
    Gaulish - Epos
    Welsh - Ebol
    Breton - Ebeul

    Anglo-Saxon - Eoh
    Gothic - Aihws

    Tocharian - Yakwe

    Sanskrit - Ashwa
    Avestan - Aspa-

    Italic, Celtic, Germanic and Tocharian are all Centum languages and have *k´ merged with *k. Germanic, in addition has shifted *k > *h according to the First Germanic Sound Shift. Sanskrit and Avestan are both Satem languages and *k´ has been shifted into a fricative sound in both cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    maybe because this happened many thousands years ago. And somehow those Centum folks Centumized the Satem loanwords. Or maybe Satem folks Satemized Centum loanwords etc. Everything is possible.
    You are misunderstanding how sound laws work: They, as Taranis has said in other threads, "have no memory". For example, English is a Germanic language, and was thus affected by Grimm's Law, such as p>f (for exapmple, pater>father), why then, did French pasture not turn into fasture when it was loaned into English? Because Grimm's Law was no longer affecting English. The same goes for Centum-Satem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Hmm, lexicostatistics has been widely discredited by mainstream linguistics, and not for good reason. For example, a study by Quentin Atkinson (which this article mentions) suggests Proto-Celtic split from PIE 8000-10000 BP...
    I am aware of the flows of this methodology, that's why it would be nice to see it polished and more adequate. My objection to mainstream linguistic thought is claimed but not proved existence of universal rules to the world languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    If the words in question were all loanwords, why do they, without exception, obey to the sound laws of the respective language family?



    Not everything is possible. The neogrammarian hypothesis states that sound laws have no exceptions. If they seemingly have exceptions, these are conditioned by their own set of rules. The comparative method has, in around 130-150 years or so of usage, shown that the neogrammarian hypothesis is correct.

    Granted, there are some Centum/Satem loanwords in individual languages (for instance, Proto-Slavic borrows from Germanic), but you don't adopt them for every word across the board. That is not possible. If we take the word for "horse", you get the idea of this:

    PIE ek´wos

    Latin - Equus

    Linear-B - "I-Qo"
    Modern Greek - Hippo

    Old Irish - Ech
    Gaulish - Epos
    Welsh - Ebol
    Breton - Ebeul

    Anglo-Saxon - Eoh
    Gothic - Aihws

    Tocharian - Yakwe

    Sanskrit - Ashwa
    Avestan - Aspa-

    Italic, Celtic, Germanic and Tocharian are all Centum languages and have *k´ merged with *k. Germanic, in addition has shifted *k > *h according to the First Germanic Sound Shift. Sanskrit and Avestan are both Satem languages and *k´ has been shifted into a fricative sound in both cases.
    Huh, I don't get you. According to you at the beginning there was just only 1 proto-Indo-European language. And all PIE words were the same. But the fact is that the sound shift occurred among different groups and we got different languages.

    Why could not the same happen to the ancient loanwords?

    Even many 'modern' French words got Satemized (Slavicnized) by the Russians.

    like: cinématographique - kinomatografia

    shift from 'S' sound to 'K' sound!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Huh, I don't get you. According to you at the beginning there was just only 1 proto-Indo-European language. And all PIE words were the same. But the fact is that the sound shift occurred among different groups and we got different languages.

    Why could not the same happen to the ancient loanwords?
    It could not happen because depending when they were adopted from elsewhere, they would not be subjects to previous sound laws, because, as I Asturrulumbo (and before that, myself) said, sound laws have no memory. If we pick the example of "horse" and assume for a moment that the IE languages had diverged at that point already, then we would find the word "ek´wos' attested like that in all branches because it could not be subject to individual sound laws.

    Because the Neogrammarian hypothesis is correct, it is possible to relatively date when a word did enter the vocabulary of a language due to it's adherence/non-adherence to the sound laws of the language. Asturrulumbo brought an excellent example of this with "pasture": we know because of the cognate in French that the word must have entered the English language after the First Germanic Sound Shift (Grimm's Law).

    Even many 'modern' French words got Satemized (Slavicnized) by the Russians.

    like: cinématographique - kinomatografia

    shift from 'S' sound to 'K' sound!
    You are wrong. That is a particularly poor example because the word is a Greek loan in itself (cinema = movement, graphikos = picture).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    It could not happen because depending when they were adopted from elsewhere, they would not be subjects to previous sound laws, because, as I Asturrulumbo (and before that, myself) said, sound laws have no memory. If we pick the example of "horse" and assume for a moment that the IE languages had diverged at that point already, then we would find the word "ek´wos' attested like that in all branches because it could not be subject to individual sound laws.

    Because the Neogrammarian hypothesis is correct, it is possible to relatively date when a word did enter the vocabulary of a language due to it's adherence/non-adherence to the sound laws of the language. Asturrulumbo brought an excellent example of this with "pasture": we know because of the cognate in French that the word must have entered the English language after the First Germanic Sound Shift (Grimm's Law).



    You are wrong. That is a particularly poor example because the word is a Greek loan in itself (cinema = movement, graphikos = picture).
    Ok.

    But my example is a good one. Becasue we do have about loanwords & soundshift in these loanwords between Centum and Satem languages!

    Another example of Satemization of a French (Centum) word:

    chance - shans (шанс)

    Sound shift from CH-sound to SH-sound.

    or

    meuble - mebelj (ме́бель)

    Sound shift from EU-sound to E-sound

    etc.

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