Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 13 of 15 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 LastLast
Results 301 to 325 of 374

Thread: The Albanian language

  1. #301
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    818
    Points
    11,540
    Level
    32
    Points: 11,540, Level: 32
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 410
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania





    Quote Originally Posted by kesi View Post
    - maybe "katun" - Alb.=small village, hamlet hence the offensive "katundar"-villager
    In romanian cătun (write it këtun to understand how to pronounce it in albanian) have same meaning as in albanian.

  2. #302
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-07-12
    Posts
    98
    Points
    6,725
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,725, Level: 24
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Albanian words similar to Romanian

    New user here :) . I find this topic very interesting, I would like to give my contribution to it.
    B

    balaur-bollë-watersnake, dragon
    baltă-baltë-mud
    brusture-brushtull-burdock
    bucura-bukur-beautiful(alb.), happy(rum.)
    burduf-burdhë-sack
    buză-buzë-lip
    F

    fărâmă-thërrime-small piece, crumb
    M

    mal-mal-mount(alb.), shore(rum.)
    mazăre-modhul-peas, chick peas
    moașă-moshë-old woman (rum.), age(alb.)
    mugur-mugull-bud
    murg-murg-dusk, dark
    mânz-mëz-colt
    măgar-magar(prot alb.), gomar(modern)-donkey
    măgură-magulë-hill
    mălai-miell-flour
    mărar-mararja(old alb.)-dill
    mătrăgună-matërgone-belladonna
    R

    rânză-rrëndës-tripe
    Z

    zară-dhallë-buttermilk
    zgardă-gardh-fence(alb.), dog collar(rum.)
    zgură-zgjyrë-slag
    C

    cioc-çukë-beak
    ciut-shut(shyt)-hornless
    ciută-sutë-doe/shy girl
    cursă-kurth-trap,snare
    căciulă-kësulë-fur cap, hood
    căpușă-këpusha-tick(bug)
    cătun-katund-hamlet,village
    G

    gata-gati-ready
    ghionoaie-gjon-woodpecker(rum.) tibet owl(alb.)
    grapă-grep-hook
    gresie-garatja (proto alb.) grij (modern)-grind
    groapă-gropë-hole
    grumaz-gurmaz-neck
    grunz-grundë-saw dust,clod
    N

    năpârcă-nëpërka-snake, viper
    S

    scrum-shkrumb-ash
    sâmbure-sumbull-pit of a fruit
    Ț

    țarc-thark-milking ben
    țeapă-thep-, peak, point, stick
    D

    daltă-daltë-chisel(a tool)
    L


    leurdă-hurdhë-garlic
    P

    pupăză-pupëzë, pupë-stern
    pârâu-përrua-stram
    V

    viezure-vjedhull-badger
    văpaie-vapë-heat, hot weather
    I hope it's useful (although I doubt it, from what I see you guys have done your homework ).

  3. #303
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered

    Join Date
    21-06-12
    Posts
    1


    Country: Albania



    I find this topic very interesting.
    I wold like to add and ask something.
    In Albanian we have two letters. q and ç.
    They are very similar in pronouncing and for the other persons that arenot Albanian they can't distinguish them.
    ç - sound like chess and for the q i could not find any similarsound in English.
    Now we have words like
    çaj - tea çan - cutting ( ai çan - he is cutting)
    qaj - crying qan - crying ( ai qan - he is crying)

    Can someone explain haw is that the Albanians have to different letters( witch differ in similar words with different meaning) for a similarsound) when all the other language have only one letter for the both sounds.

  4. #304
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Gentjan View Post
    I find this topic very interesting.
    I wold like to add and ask something.
    In Albanian we have two letters. q and ç.
    They are very similar in pronouncing and for the other persons that arenot Albanian they can't distinguish them.
    ç - sound like chess and for the q i could not find any similarsound in English.
    Now we have words like
    çaj - tea çan - cutting ( ai çan - he is cutting)
    qaj - crying qan - crying ( ai qan - he is crying)

    Can someone explain haw is that the Albanians have to different letters( witch differ in similar words with different meaning) for a similarsound) when all the other language have only one letter for the both sounds.
    Hi Gentjan, the two sounds are similar but not identical: the sound that is spelled "q" in Albanian is a so-called voiceless palatal plosive whereas the sound spelled "ç" is so-called voiceless palato-alveolar affricate. The big difference between the two is that the first is a single sound, while the latter is a co-articulated sound (in other words, a combination of the sounds "t" and "sh"). The latter sound is the more common variety and it's found in many other languages (notably also in English, in words like "rich", "witch" or "chin").

  5. #305
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-11-11
    Location
    Fier
    Posts
    124
    Points
    3,291
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,291, Level: 16
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 159
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Shqiptar
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Gentjan View Post
    I find this topic very interesting.
    I wold like to add and ask something.
    In Albanian we have two letters. q and ç.
    They are very similar in pronouncing and for the other persons that arenot Albanian they can't distinguish them.
    ç - sound like chess and for the q i could not find any similarsound in English.
    Now we have words like
    çaj - tea çan - cutting ( ai çan - he is cutting)
    qaj - crying qan - crying ( ai qan - he is crying)

    Can someone explain haw is that the Albanians have to different letters( witch differ in similar words with different meaning) for a similarsound) when all the other language have only one letter for the both sounds.
    The letter /q/ is much more similar to /gj/ in pronunciation, /ç/ written in another way in Albanian would be /tsh/.

    The confusion of /q/ with /ç/ is more of a recent development in Albanian, more or less in the start of the new millennium and I seriously doubt is a Gheg feature cause at the time of Albanian Renaissance and Alphabet, Gheg writters (aka more than 60-70%) seemed to have a pretty good distinction between /q/ and /ç/.

    And as just for info "çaj" is turkish word while "qaj" most likely is latin. Furthermore /q/ is a sound which developed from the sound /k/ (Albanian /k/) and is most of the times related to latin origin words who started with /c/.

    Exp: Qaj (modern Albanian)-Kjaj (old form), qytetërim-civitas (latin), qëndër-centrum, qen-canis ect.

    This change hasn't finished yet so you can even today see it, mostly in irregular nouns in plural.

    Exp: Ujk-Ujq, Turk-Turq, Lak-Leqe ect...

  6. #306
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-07-12
    Posts
    98
    Points
    6,725
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,725, Level: 24
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Albania



    Actually çaj is Russian (чай). I agree with the rest of your post.

    Can you help me with the origin of these words?
    zanafillë- begining
    zaptoj- to occupy
    zgavër-tree hollow

  7. #307
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-11-11
    Location
    Fier
    Posts
    124
    Points
    3,291
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,291, Level: 16
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 159
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Shqiptar
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Zemra View Post
    Actually çaj is Russian (чай). I agree with the rest of your post.

    Can you help me with the origin of these words?
    zanafillë- begining
    zaptoj- to occupy
    zgavër-tree hollow
    I have no idea about "zaptoj" and "zgavër" but "zanafillë" might be a composite word from "zë" - "it start-s/ed" like in "Zuri shiu" or "Zuri të bjerë shi" or "Zë të flas") and "fill" from the verb "filloj". As the modern expression "zë fill" (exp: "Gjithçka/Historia/Ngjarja zë fill një natë të errët...").

    Cause "zanafillë", as far as I know, it's meaning it's not just "begining", it's "THE begining". Like there's not an event preceding it (exp: "Zanafilla e Universit").

    This is my idea...

  8. #308
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    4,847
    Points
    35,967
    Level
    58
    Points: 35,967, Level: 58
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 683
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Zemra View Post
    Actually çaj is Russian (чай). I agree with the rest of your post.

    Can you help me with the origin of these words?
    zanafillë- begining
    zaptoj- to occupy
    zgavër-tree hollow

    Zgaver reminds me the Greek word
    virb σκαπ-τω skapto ( root skap) i dig a hole
    noun εκ-σκαφη σκαμα σκαφη etc excavate of material to create a hole, dig hole, primitive boat, etc

    it is probably IE
    I don't know if Grim's law can connect Greek skap with Albanian zgav
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  9. #309
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-07-12
    Posts
    98
    Points
    6,725
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,725, Level: 24
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Albania



    Thanks both of you.

  10. #310
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-05-12
    Posts
    111
    Points
    6,097
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,097, Level: 23
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 453
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Country: Canada



    can anyone ellaborate on how much of an influence gothic had on albanian? im not really familiar with it. i looked at the lord's prayer in gothic, i saw some similarities: Atta unsar þu in himinam (Our father, thou in heaven) ---> Ati yne ju ne parajse(latin). Also slightly similar, swe in himina jah ana airþai---->si ne parajse dhe ne bote. aflet uns which means forgive us ---> fal looks similar, which also means forgive, uns its used as us, but une means I in alb. again any thoughts from anyone who has some knowledge on gothic would be appreciated.

    2 other words i found in seperate texts

    dig ----> GROB -----> grope (literally dug hole)
    upon ----> BI ----------> mbi

  11. #311
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,282
    Points
    107,475
    Level
    100
    Points: 107,475, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post


    dig ----> GROB -----> grope (literally dug hole)
    upon ----> BI ----------> mbi
    GROB is also used in slavic as GRAVE.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  12. #312
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Hi everyone. I would like to discuss a little bit about Albanian language, and its relationship to the so called PIE, which in my opinion is not only a hypothetical language, but also wrongly reconstructed, since not all Europian languages were taken into consideration during this reconstruction, and especially language like Albanian which is one of the few that has followed a clear natural phonetical and lexical development and has not undergone "language purifications" or scholastic standartizations, like the most of other now spoken European ones, until at least lately. Being such at least the following examples are wrong:
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Note that /θ/ is spelled 'th' and /ð/ is spelled 'dh' in Standard Albanian orthography.Examples:PIE *g´ombh- (tooth/bite) > Albanian 'dhëmb' (tooth), compare with English 'comb' and Greek 'gomphos' (peg) and Lithuanian 'žambas' (corner)PIE *g´hel- (yellow, golden) > Albanian 'dhelpër' (fox, originally 'Yellow One'), compare with German "gelb" (yellow)
    The noun 'dhëmb' has not derived from the PIE *g´ombh, but clearly from the Albanian verb "dhëmb" which is the correspondant for the 'pain'Assuming that Albanian 'dhelpër' comes from the ancestor of 'yellow' which is *g´hel, means that whoever made that assumption knows nothing about Albanian language. I will analyse this and many like this in another occassion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Like other Satem languages, Proto-Albanian also adheres to the RUKI Law, which shifted *s > *ʃ at specific positions. However, Albanian (at a much later point) must have also shifted *s > *ʃ at other positions.
    Albanian is not a Satem language, and the theory of isoglosses division in Satem and Centum is not correct, because at least in Albanian case the theory completely ignores the fact that Albanian in both dialectes doesn't use sibilants but clear velars. That must be applied even in Proto-Albanian, which is unknown anyways. And this theory being correct, does it make French language a Satem because of its 'son'.

  13. #313
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Hi everyone. I would like to discuss a little bit about Albanian language, and its relationship to the so called PIE, which in my opinion is not only a hypothetical language, but also wrongly reconstructed, since not all Europian languages were taken into consideration during this reconstruction, and especially language like Albanian which is one of the few that has followed a clear natural phonetical and lexical development and has not undergone "language purifications" or scholastic standartizations, like the most of other now spoken European ones, until at least lately. Being such at least the following examples are wrong:
    Welcome to Eupedia, Zeus.


    It appears to me that you are having a large number of misconceptions about what Proto-Indo-European is, and also how it is reconstructed. Most notably, you have to bear in mind that the reconstruction is not only based on modern language (it would be a lot more difficult to do that), but also on ancient languages, to mention a few ones, notably Classical Greek, Mycenaean Greek, Avestan, Sanskrit and Hittite. Modern Albanian is not particuarly representative at all of Proto-Indo-European, and the reasons for that have been addressed extensively in this thread.

    The backbone of language reconstruction is the comparative method, and the concept of sound changes. The underlying assumption is that sound laws are exceptionless, that they irreversable (if a sound change happens, it applies to ALL words in the vocabulary), and also that sound changes have no memory of the past of a language. This means if there are words that seemingly violate these sound changes, they must have entered into a language after this sound change occured.

    Let me point out that the comparative method has not only been successfully used for reconstructing Proto-Indo-European, but also for other language families, and it works every single time.

    The noun 'dhëmb' has not derived from the PIE *g´ombh, but clearly from the Albanian verb "dhëmb" which is the correspondant for the 'pain'Assuming that Albanian 'dhelpër' comes from the ancestor of 'yellow' which is *g´hel, means that whoever made that assumption knows nothing about Albanian language. I will analyse this and many like this in another occassion.

    I'll ask you something: would the Albanian word for "tooth" derive from the word for "to hurt"? The examples I have given clearly show that there is a regular correspondence between Albanian "dh" and the Proto-Indo-European sounds *g´ and *g´h (which Proto-Albanian must have merged at one stage), and that this perfectly corresponds with sounds in other Indo-European languages (notably *g´ is reflected as *k in Germanic, *g in Celtic, Greek and Latin, and *z in many Satem languages).

    There is no "secret knowledge" about the Albanian language.

    Albanian is not a Satem language, and the theory of isoglosses division in Satem and Centum is not correct, because at least in Albanian case the theory completely ignores the fact that Albanian in both dialectes doesn't use sibilants but clear velars. That must be applied even in Proto-Albanian, which is unknown anyways. And this theory being correct, does it make French language a Satem because of its 'son'.

    The idea that Centum and Satem represents an early split is probably wrong, but the description that an Indo-European language is a "Centum" or "Satem" language is accurate nontheless.


    Yes, the Albanian language possesses velars, but that doesn't make it a Centum language. The Baltic, Slavic and Indo-Iranic languages also all possess velars, that doesn't make them Centum. The question is, how do the sounds in one language correspond to sounds in other languages.


    I actually am glad that you bring up the example of French, because it is indeed a language that has (at a later point) developed what appears at first glance to be Satem-like features. The best example is the French word for "dog", "chien" (pronounced "ʃjɛ:"). If you however look at the word in other Romance languages (Portuguese "cão", Spanish "can", Italian "cane", Romanian "câine"), and most importantly Latin ("canis"), then it's clear that this development of *k > *ʃ is a unique development French.

    This gets clearer if you compare this with words for "dog" in other Indo-European branches:

    Celtic:
    - Irish "cún"
    - Welsh "ci"

    Germanic:
    - English "hound"
    - German "Hund".
    - Icelandic "hundur"

    - Greek: "kyon"

    Baltic:
    - Latvian "suns"
    - Lithuanian "šuo"

    - Armenian: "shun"

    Indo-Iranic:
    - Sanskrit "sva"

    If you compare this, it is pretty clear that Albanian "qen" must be a loanword.
    Last edited by Taranis; 14-07-12 at 23:05.

  14. #314
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Welcome to Eupedia, Zeus.It appears to me that you are having a large number of misconceptions about what Proto-Indo-European is, and also how it is reconstructed. Most notably, you have to bear in mind that the reconstruction is not only based on modern language (it would be a lot more difficult to do that), but also on ancient languages, to mention a few ones, notably Classical Greek, Mycenaean Greek, Avestan, Sanskrit and Hittite. Modern Albanian is not particuarly representative at all of Proto-Indo-European, and the reasons for that have been addressed extensively in this thread.The backbone of language reconstruction is the comparative method, and the concept of sound changes. The underlying assumption is that sound laws are exceptionless, that they irreversable (if a sound change happens, it applies to ALL words in the vocabulary), and also that sound changes have no memory of the past of a language. This means if there are words that seemingly violate these sound changes, they must have entered into a language after this sound change occured.Let me point out that the comparative method has not only been successfully used for reconstructing Proto-Indo-European, but also for other language families, and it works every single time.
    I am surprised how fast you have jumped to conclusions about my "large number of misconceptions", and "surprisely" not explaining what are those misconceptions. I would say that you have a huge misconception about my knowledge. Let me make myself more clear. In the five series of stops:
    Labial: p b bh
    Dental: t d dh
    Palatal: k' g' gh'
    Velar: k g gh
    Labiovelar: kw gw ghw

    no one knows for certain that these were the actual phonetical values.
    Secondly, why in the generic root the vowel is usually *e?
    Why this generic root is supposed to contain, only two consonants from the voiced column, and why the voiced aspirated consonant presence excludes the voiceless one in the structure and vice-verca?
    Then why the c-v-c structure, has to be the predominant one, meanwhile is more reasonable that such a structure to be a development of c-v one, and this last one must be the initial one?
    If you are able to answer the above question, then you can have a debate with me.

  15. #315
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'll ask you something: would the Albanian word for "tooth" derive from the word for "to hurt"?
    Why you are asking me this, when I already suggested the answer?

    The examples I have given clearly show that there is a regular correspondence between Albanian "dh" and the Proto-Indo-European sounds *g´ and *g´h (which Proto-Albanian must have merged at one stage), and that this perfectly corresponds with sounds in other Indo-European languages (notably *g´ is reflected as *k in Germanic, *g in Celtic, Greek and Latin, and *z in many Satem languages).
    How could a phonetical evolution be so "weird" to give a dental stop as a product of a velar one? Who did suggest that, you?

    There is no "secret knowledge" about the Albanian language.
    No of course, but Albanian is one of the few, not saying the only Europian language, which shaped its phonetical system and its lexicon in the family hearth, otherwise from other "strong" languages, which are cleary inherited through scholasticism, and they were invented, developed and used by the theocrats on the first place.

    The idea that Centum and Satem represents an early split is probably wrong, but the description that an Indo-European language is a "Centum" or "Satem" language is accurate nontheless.
    That is just a political division. Just to remind you what Bradke elucidated

    a division between eastern and western cultural provinces


    Yes, the Albanian language possesses velars, but that doesn't make it a Centum language. The Baltic, Slavic and Indo-Iranic languages also all possess velars, that doesn't make them Centum. The question is, how do the sounds in one language correspond to sounds in other languages.
    Don't play dumb with me. You know very well that I am talking about the velars used on the word 'hundred'


    I actually am glad that you bring up the example of French, because it is indeed a language that has (at a later point) developed what appears at first glance to be Satem-like features. The best example is the French word for "dog", "chien" (pronounced "ʃjɛ:"). If you however look at the word in other Romance languages (Portuguese "cão", Spanish "can", Italian "cane", Romanian "câine"), and most importantly Latin ("canis"), then it's clear that this development of *k > *ʃ is a unique development French.

    This gets clearer if you compare this with words for "dog" in other Indo-European branches:

    Celtic:
    - Irish "cún"
    - Welsh "ci"

    Germanic:
    - English "hound"
    - German "Hund".
    - Icelandic "hundur"

    - Greek: "kyon"

    Baltic:
    - Latvian "suns"
    - Lithuanian "šuo"

    - Armenian: "shun"

    Indo-Iranic:
    - Sanskrit "sva".
    - Albanian "qen"
    You yourself proved that Albanian can not qualify as Satem language but as Centum one, but then:

    If you compare this, it is pretty clear that Albanian "qen" must be a loanword
    trying to escape the truth, you came up with the"rescue boat" of the "loanword". What does it make "pretty clear", that Albanians had to wait for stangers arrival, to create the term for their dogs?
    Last edited by Zeus10; 16-07-12 at 05:22.

  16. #316
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    I can not post links before 10 posts, can you change this to 4?

  17. #317
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    4,847
    Points
    35,967
    Level
    58
    Points: 35,967, Level: 58
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 683
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    How could a phonetical evolution be so "weird" to give a dental stop as a product of a velar one? Who did suggest that, you?



    No of course, but Albanian is one of the few, not saying the only Europian language, which shaped its phonetical system and its lexicon in the family hearth, otherwise from other "strong" languages, which are cleary inherited through scholasticism, and they were invented, developed and used by the theocrats on the first place.
    if you reject this then you reject the whole of IE languages, and surely you put the Albanian outside of IE languages,

    Grim's law describe how the inheritage from PIE was done, either by family heart as you say, either by scholasticism.

    Albanian language of today has the lowest IE words, and if you exclude Grim's law then surely you claim that Albanian is not IE language,

    by accepting Grim's law you can find how Albanian should be as a early proto-form, how the inheritage was transfered from PIE.


    Inner laws of a language were developed after the tranformation of IE to a modern language (Grim's law)


    Grim's law are based in asspirations and sometimes may give words that sound strange to a modern language, that is because inner sound laws of a language enter after the change laws from PIE to the certian language


    so if a word that does follow Grim's law and inner sound laws its a loan.

  18. #318
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    I am surprised how fast you have jumped to conclusions about my "large number of misconceptions", and "surprisely" not explaining what are those misconceptions. I would say that you have a huge misconception about my knowledge. Let me make myself more clear. In the five series of stops:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Labial: p b bh
    Dental: t d dh
    Palatal: k' g' gh'
    Velar: k g gh
    Labiovelar: kw gw ghw

    no one knows for certain that these were the actual phonetical values.
    Secondly, why in the generic root the vowel is usually *e?
    Why this generic root is supposed to contain, only two consonants from the voiced column, and why the voiced aspirated consonant presence excludes the voiceless one in the structure and vice-verca?
    Then why the c-v-c structure, has to be the predominant one, meanwhile is more reasonable that such a structure to be a development of c-v one, and this last one must be the initial one?
    If you are able to answer the above question, then you can have a debate with me.
    I agree that we do not know if these really were the actual phonetic values. There are some other possibilies, for instance what is often suggested is that the palatovelars were actually plains velars and that the series normally reconstructed as plain velars was actually uvular. The Glottalic Theory poses that the voiced series was actually one of ejective stops.

    Since evidently, Proto-Indo-European was spoken long before being recorded, we do not know which scenario for reconstruction is correct. But, no matter which scenario we use we must justify how we end up with the respective reflexes in the daughter languages.

    As for syllable structure, let me pick a different example: why does for instance Basque have so many words with a VCV structure? We do not know. Conjecturally, I would say it has something to do with the prehistory of the language.

    Since you evidently seem to know more than you claim, I'd like to ask you how you would reconstruct PIE instead, and I'd like to hear the arguments that you bring forth to justify it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Why you are asking me this, when I already suggested the answer?


    Because to me, it doesn't make sense semantically for the word "tooth" to derive from the word for "to hurt"?

    How could a phonetical evolution be so "weird" to give a dental stop as a product of a velar one? Who did suggest that, you?


    Last time I checked, it's a dental fricative, rather then a dental stop.

    No of course, but Albanian is one of the few, not saying the only Europian language, which shaped its phonetical system and its lexicon in the family hearth, otherwise from other "strong" languages, which are cleary inherited through scholasticism, and they were invented, developed and used by the theocrats on the first place.


    I do not know why you keep insisting on this. If you mean by that statement that Albanian was comparably longer an illiterate language, and even longer a language with no standard orthography, then yes. But the idea that other European languages are, as you put it, "invented", because of a long literacy tradition is, in my opinion a quite flimsy argument. As an example, how would a medieval scholar, who's primary literature language is Latin, be able to affect the every-day language of a German peasant? Would you also claim that languages like Hebrew and Arabic which have a strong literacy traditions are "invented"? The latter is particularly interesting because if you look at modern Arabic dialects it's very clear that they have their own developments - independent from the written standard.

    But, we can circumvene a lot of confusion here by asking you one simple question: do you believe the Neogrammarian Hypothesis to be accurate?

    That is just a political division. Just to remind you what Bradke elucidated

    a division between eastern and western cultural provinces
    No, I don't think that this is necessarily accurate. I do think however that the "Centum"/"Satem" concept is very useful in describing an Indo-European language, simply by the merit of wether the palatovelars are reflected as plain velars or as fricatives in the respective daughter branch.

    Don't play dumb with me. You know very well that I am talking about the velars used on the word 'hundred'


    I'm not playing dumb with you. The textbook example for the Centum/Satem split is the word "hundred" (after which, atfer all, it is named), but my point is that there's many other examples that you can pick to show wether an Indo-European language can be described as "Centum" or "Satem".

    You yourself proved that Albanian can not qualify as Satem language but as Centum one, but then:

    trying to escape the truth, you came up with the"rescue boat" of the "loanword". What does it make "pretty clear", that Albanians had to wait for stangers arrival, to create the term for their dogs?
    Well, I'm not actually escaping any truth here: nobody said that the Albanian language did not have a different ("native", if you will, in the sense of "native to the language") word for "dog". It merely got replaced by the Latin loanword. In a very similar fashion, English has replaced many "native" Germanic words in it's vocabulary with Latin and Romance ones.

    I also disagree on your notion that Albanian "cannot" be a Satem language because as I've demonstrated before (and I'm very willing to demonstrate again), the palatovelars are regularly reflected as dental fricatives into Albanian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    I can not post links before 10 posts, can you change this to 4?


    I'm sorry for any potential inconvinience, but it's a precaution that the admin installed against potential spammers.
    Last edited by Taranis; 16-07-12 at 12:47.

  19. #319
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    if you reject this then you reject the whole of IE languages, and surely you put the Albanian outside of IE languages,

    Grim's law describe how the inheritage from PIE was done, either by family heart as you say, either by scholasticism.

    Albanian language of today has the lowest IE words, and if you exclude Grim's law then surely you claim that Albanian is not IE language,

    by accepting Grim's law you can find how Albanian should be as a early proto-form, how the inheritage was transfered from PIE.


    Inner laws of a language were developed after the tranformation of IE to a modern language (Grim's law)


    Grim's law are based in asspirations and sometimes may give words that sound strange to a modern language, that is because inner sound laws of a language enter after the change laws from PIE to the certian language


    so if a word that does follow Grim's law and inner sound laws its a loan.
    Yetos no, you're confusing the concept of sound laws as a whole with Grimm's Law. Grimm's Law merely describes how Proto-Germanic sound correspond with Proto-Indo-European ones. It is not relevant for any other branch of Indo-European, but obviously there are sound laws relevant for the various Indo-European branches. Besides, Zeus made no such other claims about the nature of the Albanian language.

  20. #320
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    if you reject this then you reject the whole of IE languages, and surely you put the Albanian outside of IE languages, Grim's law describe how the inheritage from PIE was done, either by family heart as you say, either by scholasticism.Albanian language of today has the lowest IE words, and if you exclude Grim's law then surely you claim that Albanian is not IE language, by accepting Grim's law you can find how Albanian should be as a early proto-form, how the inheritage was transfered from PIE.Inner laws of a language were developed after the tranformation of IE to a modern language (Grim's law)Grim's law are based in asspirations and sometimes may give words that sound strange to a modern language, that is because inner sound laws of a language enter after the change laws from PIE to the certian languageso if a word that does follow Grim's law and inner sound laws its a loan.
    Totally wrong there. Grimm's law is applied in early Germanic sound shift ONLY.

  21. #321
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I agree that we do not know if these really were the actual phonetic values. There are some other possibilies, for instance what is often suggested is that the palatovelars were actually plains velars and that the series normally reconstructed as plain velars was actually uvular. The Glottalic Theory poses that the voiced series was actually one of ejective stops.Since evidently, Proto-Indo-European was spoken long before being recorded, we do not know which scenario for reconstruction is correct. But, no matter which scenario we use we must justify how we end up with the respective reflexes in the daughter languages.
    I know this, and I am aware of the many scenarios the supporters of the PIE theory have to assume, to cover the numerous weaknesses of this theory, which has been built not in a solid ground, but through empiricism only.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    As for syllable structure, let me pick a different example: why does for instance Basque have so many words with a VCV structure? We do not know. Conjecturally, I would say it has something to do with the prehistory of the language.
    I think, it must be you answering the question, since you are a supporter of the theory, which accepts c-v-c structure predominantly.

  22. #322
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Since you evidently seem to know more than you claim, I'd like to ask you how you would reconstruct PIE instead, and I'd like to hear the arguments that you bring forth to justify it.
    I actually created a list with PIE roots for Albanian language, strictly following the standard procedure and "surprisely" they are nowhere alike, other correspondants already reconstructed based on other languages.

  23. #323
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Because to me, it doesn't make sense semantically for the word "tooth" to derive from the word for "to hurt"?
    Semantically it makes a lot more sense to me, a painful part of our body, to be named by the usuall feeling we experience in it, than by a "feelingless" word like 'gombh'.

  24. #324
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Zeus10's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-07-12
    Posts
    226
    Points
    4,220
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,220, Level: 18
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm not playing dumb with you. The textbook example for the Centum/Satem split is the word "hundred" (after which, atfer all, it is named), but my point is that there's many other examples that you can pick to show wether an Indo-European language can be described as "Centum" or "Satem".
    The word "hundred" criteria, is more than just a textbook example, but was the principle the Satem-Centum theory is based on. The problem is that I know no other example in Albanian you can pick, to describe it as "Satem". If you know one let us know.

  25. #325
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,172
    Points
    32,289
    Level
    55
    Points: 32,289, Level: 55
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 761
    Overall activity: 32.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    answering to Taranis [...be so "weird" to give a dental stop as a product of a velar one? Who did suggest that, you?]

    I admit it amazed me the first time I saw this phonetic correlation between a /dh/ and a /k/ or /g/ sound - but after I looked ar romance languages and I remember the castillan evolution of the previous latin /-ti-/ where 'i' is unaccentued:
    /-ti-/ >> /-tj'/ >> /-tch-/ >> /-ts-/ >> /-th-/ !
    knowing that a /ki-/ can evolve like that: /ki-/ >> /kj-/ >> /tch-/ >> /ts-/ I am no more so amazed, even if I suppose this took sometime (centuries?)


    No of course, but Albanian is one of the few, not saying the only Europian language, which shaped its phonetical system and its lexicon in the family hearth, otherwise from other "strong" languages, which are cleary inherited through scholasticism, and they wermit e invented, developed and used by the theocrats on the first place.

    the official and scholasticic languages as you say have a popular basis as a whole, even if some words were "unnaturally" forged - they have more exceptions to the phonetic rules than dialects because sometimes some minor dialect words were received into them -



    You know very well that I am talking about the velars used on the word 'hundred'

    the numbers are not so reliable: they show often forms derogative to the common rule of the language: effect of dominent trade partners??? why not? see the germanic numbers... ('fore', 'five' in place of *'hwore', *'hwink' or somethings like that)




    You yourself proved that Albanian can not qualify as Satem language but as Centum one, but then:
    trying to escape the truth, you came up with the"rescue boat" of the "loanword". What does it make "pretty clear", that Albanians had to wait for stangers arrival, to create the term for their dogs?

    languages can loan words even when they have yet proper words to express the concerned meaning - snobism is not new in case of prestige differences - sometimes the loan words are specialized for some "nuances", sometimes they drop the genuine word off - (in dominated ethnies: in breton: 'kon' ("dogs", "hounds") >> 'chas' from french 'chasse': "hunting" - 'sivi' ("strawberry") >> 'fres'(from french 'fraise') : sometimes it is by the way of trading, when a peculiar stuff is exchanged at a big scale, and the market dominated by someone... a latin loan by albanese by instance is not so impossible even if not expected for "dog"...

Page 13 of 15 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. maltese language weirdest language ever
    By maltesekid in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 14-03-13, 03:45
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-05-11, 12:23
  3. Is American Sign Language a real language?
    By Zauriel in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 23-02-10, 10:12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •