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View Poll Results: What is your cephalic index?

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  • <65 (hyperdolichocephalic)

    0 0%
  • 65-75 (dolichocephalic)

    3 15.79%
  • 75-80 (mesocephalic)

    9 47.37%
  • 80 -85 (brachycephalic)

    4 21.05%
  • >85 (hyperbrachycephalic)

    3 15.79%
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Thread: What is your cephalic index?

  1. #1
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    What is your cephalic index?



    I am surprised that this hasn't been asked before. To calculate it measure your head width, multiply by 100 and divide by your head length. It's really not easy to measure accurately so ask someone to help you. Use calipers if necessary. The best way is to measure directly from a brain scan or MRI photo, but I doubt many people have access to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    I am surprised that this hasn't been asked before. To calculate it measure your head width, multiply by 100 and divide by your head length. It's really not easy to measure accurately so ask someone to help you. Use calipers if necessary. The best way is to measure directly from a brain scan or MRI photo, but I doubt many people have access to that.
    I have a McNamara cephalometric analysis of myself but I don't know well what the numbers mean.

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    Ethnic group
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    The measurements might have a few mm margin of error but I come up brachycephalic - 80.95 :) Although by other index it's still under mesaticephalic limits.

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    Oh! I feel it believe that I have voted badly, it might put a tutorial of how to do it, I have not left clear how to measure the lingitud of the head, suddenly it takes me of surprise.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    This topic is ever popular. We have discussed head shape in many other threads. In summary:

    - the dolicocephalic (long-headed) types are predominant in most of North and East Africa, Arabic countries, South Italy, Iberia and Northern Europe. In terms of Y-DNA haplogroups, the strongest correlation is with E1b1b, I and T.

    - the brachycephalic (short-headed, broad-headed or round-headed) is most common among Amerindians, Siberians, East Asians, South Asians, Caucasians, Anatolians, East Europeans and Central Europeans. The strongest Y-haplogroup correlation is with G, N, O, Q, and R1a.

    The head shape of R1b population varies hugely from place to place, which confirms my hypothesis that Indo-European R1b lineages expanded by absorbing the local female population of conquered regions, and therefore progressively diluting their autosomal genes as they advanced. The same thing seems to have happened with the expansion of J1 and J2, which are brachycephalic in their Anatolian homeland as well as in Iran and South Asia, but dolicocephalic in the Mediterranean Europe, the Arabian peninsula and North Africa.
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    Many bell beaker individuals were found brachycepahlic which means that they came from the east and were not a local West European phenomenon

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    Also what I find hard to link with Haplogroup is the so called Brachycephalic Alpine type since it differs totally from the Mediterranean type, but we find the same haplogroup in both regiosn (except E1b) . Was it G2a? Or G2a+ T+I2a Din?

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    The strongest Y-haplogroup correlation is with G, N, O, Q, and R1a.
    There is some corelation in HG and skull types, but I would restrain myself connecting HG's strictly with anthropomorphic traits and include more of autosomal genes into this.

    Are you sure about G being just Brachicephalic?

    From what I know, when using y HG, it could be just as well proved opposite. As you said, Dolichocephalic skulls are numerous in Africa, and I think it would be just as natural in ME too. Brachicephalic skulls are, mostly East Asian, and also I cant see no such natural connection of Middle Eastern, and West Asian HG G to East Asian HGs O,P,N, R1a, but rather their natural connection with R1b.

    It is actually well documented by anthropologists visiting Caucasus. G was highest among Circassians, probably much more than today's below 60%. There is little less of G in Georgians and R1b numbers rise a bit, still G being in higher numbers, and lastly in Armenians with much more R1b than G. Here it could be seen how skulls appear more rounded going south from Circassians to Armenians.

    I could easily connect R1b to Brachicephalic skull based on Caucasus skull types, and G to Dolichocephalic based on this old anthropological data.

    But I do not want to do this, for multitude of reasons.

    There is also, quite a romantic feeling, connecting R1b and Dolichocephalic skulls and here, actually, I mostly agree. Were they always like that, I'm not sure, since we don't know where they came from. It might be their own trait - exclusive to R1b, but being common in Africa, I see a natural connection of this skull type to y HG-s and autosomal genes from ME.

    I have, personally, also connected most of R1b people with tendency toward being objective in all circumstances regardless the emotional conflicts and overall outcome, a trait I value among anything else. Still, they seem to see down upon Brachicephalic traits and are vigorously trying to differentiate themselves from such. These so called Round heads once defeated nobility in England and probably in France too, and I suspect, are still part of common people of GB, as well as the rest of Europe - World.
    Last edited by Ivan; 25-11-11 at 17:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    There is some corelation in HG and skull types, but I would restrain myself connecting HG's strictly with anthropomorphic traits and include more of autosomal genes into this.

    Are you sure about G being just Brachicephalic?
    ...
    I could easily connect R1b to Brachicephalic skull based on Caucasus skull types, and G to Dolichocephalic based on this old anthropological data.
    It's just statistical correlation when you compare the haplogroup maps and cephalic index map. Furthermore, the brachycephalic types in Europe appear to have come from Anatolia and the Caucasus during the Neolithic and Bronze Age.

    I admit that Sardinia is an exception in having mostly dolicocephalic types and a lot of G2a, but that's probably because of the much higher frequency of I2a1 (strongly dolicocephalic as attested by the Spaniards). Haplogroup G is otherwise most common in Anatolia, the Caucasus and North Iran, all places with very brachycephalic people.

    As for R1b, there is strong evidence that it was originally brachycephalic too. The Neolithic and Bronze Age people of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe were overwhelmingly brachycephalic (David Anthony even mentions Mongoloid-like features in The Horse, the Wheel, and Language).

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    Yes Caucasus is more brachicephalic in general. But certainly not to extent for G to be in front of a genetically distant groups such as O,P,R1a... It just looks unnaturally displaced from ME place of origin and much closer groups such as J and I.

    Just to clarify myself:

    I personally, think dolichocephalic skull is, when not in extreme form, probably more appealing to us, people of Europe, with somewhat eurocentric beauty model. This is not applicable to other cultures such as of Mongols, Huns Tatars... who favored this other form to its extreme following its own warlike skull types, even shaping them to look more broad and threatening.

    But for me, and most of people I know, the most beautiful people are certainly not extreme dolichocephalic nor the other one, but just somewhere in between, maybe a just a tiny bit closer to dolicocephalic. This is probably what most of anthropologists from Europe thought about Caucasus people.

    I am not a supporter of racial theory, nor anything such. I posted this just for reference.

    Racial scientists, after discovering an intimate similarity between the skull shapes of Caucasians (primarily judged by Circassians, Georgians and Chechens, the most numerous groups), went to declare that Europeans, North Africans, Middle Eastern peoples and Caucasians were of a common race, termed "Caucasian", or later, as it is known today, as "Caucasoid".

    Here is where I think you missed my point. HG G is a rare gene, and when it apears in Sardinia in 15 % or Turkey with 11% ( there are also 3.000.000 Circassians in Turkey), it looks like much and one is tempted using this rather small group of 15% to argue anthropology on behalf of 85% of other genes. I thing this is a big mistake.

    As for Sardinia and HG I dolichocephalic connection,
    Cephalic indexes map I have, shows I2 place of origin as even more brachicephalic than this of Caucasus, or at least similar, and this is quite true, at least in my experience, and my everyday observations.

    Anatolian neolithic expansion with B type in not showing on the map, and it probably had no such impact. Actually this map would look diferent if Russians did not expand south, and it would connect Central Asia, Europe, and Anatolia, and Europe and Asia through north and Black sea, if we follow this map data.

    http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map6a.jpg
    http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map6b.jpg

    My point is that when extrapolating antropological data for G, it is best to use counties where it reaches its maximum. And there is where your connection fails. The highest G is among least of brachicephalics, such as Circassians, while in much smaller numbers among strongest brachicephalic presence in Armenia. Georgia is somewhere in between moderately B., just proportionally.

    So Turkey, Sardinia ... are hardly comparable to Caucasus in terms of G prevalence, and just not the places to look for HG G anthropological connections. Also I would use autosomal genes in addition, to clarify most of uncertainties.

    So I agree that brachicephalic type prevails on Caucasus, but among G IMHO is found mostly in its moderate form, still brachicephalic though, so appealing to early European visitors, but can also be found, in smaller numbers, as a strong brachicephalic.
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    Last edited by Ivan; 25-11-11 at 17:35.

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    I think that we could get a better idea of what skull shape the "original" carriers of haplogroup G (at least G2a) had by looking at the Neolithic skulls of G2a samples from Treilles and Cogolls. I am not aware that the cephalic indices were reported though. Alternatively, we could search and compare data for other Neolithic sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Here is where I think you missed my point. HG G is a rare gene, and when it apears in Sardinia in 15 % or Turkey with 11% ( there are also 3.000.000 Circassians in Turkey), it looks like much and one is tempted using this rather small group of 15% to argue anthropology on behalf of 85% of other genes. I thing this is a big mistake.
    1) a Y-DNA haplogroup is not a gene.

    2) Y-DNA doesn't influence skull shape. Y-DNA can be passed unchanged from generation to generation while other chromosomes change, sometimes radically. The further away a haplogroup if found from its region of origin the weakest is its correlation with autosomal DNA (except in the case of mass migrations with little miscegenation with the indigenous peoples, like Europeans who moved to North America and Australia).

    Skull shape is something that can change pretty fast. If one brachycephalic man has children with a dolicocephalic woman, the children will be somewhere in the middle (mesocephalic if the parents' cephalic indices are equidistant to mesocephaly). If these descendants have kids with dolicocephalic people, the third generation will be almost entirely dolicocephalic. I think this is what happened with Neolithic G2a and Bronze Age R1b in Western Europe. The G2a and R1b men had children mostly with local women (as attested by the mtDNA lineages), which diluted their original brachycephaly until their descendants were almost all dolicocephalic. Cro-Magnoids were generally dolicocephalic and many were even hyperdolicocephalic. Modern Western and Northern Europeans, who are the most dolicocephalic in Europe, have rounder/shorter heads than Cro-Magnons.

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    Some barchycephalic type did exist in Paleolithic Europe such as the Borreby type found in Northern Europe

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have a very fat problem, they have to help me.
    My breadth is 60 cm, my length 40, therefore my result is 150
    Have I done it well?: am I hyperbrachycephalic?, I do not want, I always thought that it owed to the volume of my hairs, but it is possible that it has been cheating me himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Also what I find hard to link with Haplogroup is the so called Brachycephalic Alpine type since it differs totally from the Mediterranean type, but we find the same haplogroup in both regiosn (except E1b) . Was it G2a? Or G2a+ T+I2a Din?
    Wild speculation: I once read somewhere (can not find it anymore) that alpinism is not a type but a medical condition associated with stamina, resilience and longevity, which can emerge very quickly due to malnutrition or epidemic diseases. In case that is true, todays epigenetics could provide potential explanation for this effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I have a very fat problem, they have to help me.
    My breadth is 60 cm, my length 40, therefore my result is 150
    Have I done it well?: am I hyperbrachycephalic?, I do not want, I always thought that it owed to the volume of my hairs, but it is possible that it has been cheating me himself.
    So your head is rubgy-ball shaped.

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    Compared to my brother and my dad I've got rather a very 'small' head. Both are also taller than me. I did the measurements by myself so it is not 100% accurate. My head is for about 21.4 cm. long and for about 14.2 cm. wide.

    So this means

    14x100 = 1400
    1400:21= 66 2/3 or 66.66666

    or more precisely
    14.2 x 100 : 21.4 = 66.355

    I'm a male Kurd of Iranic stock and in the end twenties. So my head is not going to grow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    So your head is rubgy-ball shaped.
    Of child I had more head than a cat male.

    Fortunately I measure 1.80cm but Not man my head is not so sharp-pointed as a ball of rugby if it was like that would be employed at the circus.

    My vote is void, I want to vote again, the vote that it marks in (hyperdolichocephalic) has to go in (hyperbrachycephalic)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Carlos
    I have a very fat problem, they have to help me.
    My breadth is 60 cm, my length 40, therefore my result is 150
    If I understood well, you have measured circumference not width. Since nobody's head is more wide than long all results should fall under 100. W/L would look something like 0,65-0,85 and that is why it is multiplied by 100 first, so the results come out more statistically and visually comparable.

    Measuring width of a head without any equipement is not an easy task, and that is probably why original poster sugested using brain scan. You can do it with two larger triangular ruler parallel to each other, with a help of a friend who could measure the distance between them.

    1) a Y-DNA haplogroup is not a gene.
    Thank you for this correction. Nevertheless I am sure you understood the point, regardless of this mistake.
    It gradually became part of my vocabulary when trying to simplify and explain DNA issues to people in serbian, something they know even less than myself. I will have to improve my English.

    2) Y-DNA doesn't influence skull shape.
    This is close enough to what I was trying to say. Y dna is certainly not a place where information about skull type is stored. It is clearly autosomal.

    I think I will have to learn this skill from you, not to be so extensive, opening many topics at the same time, and stray from original one. I hope this would make my posts more comprehensible.

    When I catch some time again, I will also reduce some of my previous posts for this purpose.
    Last edited by Ivan; 26-11-11 at 09:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Some barchycephalic type did exist in Paleolithic Europe such as the Borreby type found in Northern Europe
    Isn't the Borreby type an anthropological category for classifying modern Europeans ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Compared to my brother and my dad I've got rather a very 'small' head. Both are also taller than me. I did the measurements by myself so it is not 100% accurate. My head is for about 21.4 cm. long and for about 14.2 cm. wide.

    So this means

    14x100 = 1400
    1400:21= 66 2/3 or 66.66666

    or more precisely
    14.2 x 100 : 21.4 = 66.355

    I'm a male Kurd of Iranic stock and in the end twenties. So my head is not going to grow.
    That makes you dolicocephalic, close to hyperdolicocepahlic. If you measured properly you fit in the minority for Iranian peoples.Here are the scientific studies I know about Iranians :

    Morphological Evaluation of Head in Turkman Males in Gorgan-North of Iran, Golalipur et al. (2007)

    Out of 198 young Turkman males tested, 8% were dolicocephalic, 40% mesocephalic, 42.5% brachycephalic and 7.5% hyperbrachycephalic.


    Cephalometry in 14-18 Years Old Girls and Boys of Shiraz-Iran High School, Vojdani et al. (2009)

    They measured the head shape of 867 girls and 960 boys. Among the boys there were 7.5% of dolicocephalic, 28.5% of mesocephalic, 30% of brachycephalic and 34.5% of hyperbrachycephalic. The girls only had 4.8% of dolicocephalic types.


    In both studies (North and South Iran), the brachycephalic type is overwhelming. So perhaps your ancestry is not purely Iranic.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 26-11-11 at 11:23.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    My vote is void, I want to vote again, the vote that it marks in (hyperdolichocephalic) has to go in (hyperbrachycephalic)
    I can delete your vote, but I don't think that the forum will let you vote again.

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    Ivan
    If I understood well, you have measured circumference not width. Since nobody's head is more wide than long all results should fall under 100. W/L would look something like 0,65-0,85 and that is why it is multiplied by 100 first, so the results come out more statistically and visually comparable.
    Measuring width of a head without any equipement is not an easy task, and that is probably why original poster sugested using brain scan. You can do it with two larger triangular ruler parallel to each other, with a help of a friend who could measure the distance between them.
    Hello, thanks for answering. I have measured the length from the bone of the between eyebrow and eyebrow up to the end of the head and they begin the vertebrae of the neck, the result is a 40 cm and the width 60cm, it does not turn out to be to me difficult to realize the measurement.

    Maciamo
    I can delete your vote, but I don't think that the forum will let you vote again.
    Thank you, really the system does not allow me to vote again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Isn't the Borreby type an anthropological category for classifying modern Europeans ?
    Borreby is named after a Danish Paleolithic site

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    ¿What about Irish and English people? Not sure of their cephalic index in average, I assume it's quite diverse considering the substantial Mediterranean admixture with different Northern European stock (mostly from European R1b's).

    I made some calculations for me, and the thing comes out more or less 71 (dolichocephalic). However, I look very Atlantic and that's why I ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That makes you dolicocephalic, close to hyperdolicocepahlic. If you measured properly you fit in the minority for Iranian peoples.Here are the scientific studies I know about Iranians :

    Morphological Evaluation of Head in Turkman Males in Gorgan-North of Iran, Golalipur et al. (2007)

    Out of 198 young Turkman males tested, 8% were dolicocephalic, 40% mesocephalic, 42.5% brachycephalic and 7.5% hyperbrachycephalic.


    Cephalometry in 14-18 Years Old Girls and Boys of Shiraz-Iran High School, Vojdani et al. (2009)

    They measured the head shape of 867 girls and 960 boys. Among the boys there were 7.5% of dolicocephalic, 28.5% of mesocephalic, 30% of brachycephalic and 34.5% of hyperbrachycephalic. The girls only had 4.8% of dolicocephalic types.


    In both studies (North and South Iran), the brachycephalic type is overwhelming. So perhaps your ancestry is not purely Iranic.
    It's hard for me to believe that I do belong to a minority of my own folks, because as far as I know all my close relatives have the same shape of the head. Uncles, their children etc. So I do consider myself as an average.

    Turcomans are a different ethnic group and the original 'unmixed' Turcomans have nothing to do with Kurds. Turcomans are descendants of the Seljuks from East Asia and Seljucts were Turkic tribes close to the Mongols. The real Turks are more broad headed folks.
    Last edited by Goga; 27-11-11 at 23:59.

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