Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: the earlist Germanic

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    15-09-08
    Posts
    71


    Country: China



    the earlist Germanic

    In Genetics, as modern ethnicity as concerned, which country could best represent the earlist Germanic people? Denmark, Norway, Sweden or Holland?
    Should I put Germany into the list undoubtly?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    15-09-08
    Posts
    71


    Country: China



    Sorry,no reply.Uhh,do you have any information, Maciamo?

  3. #3
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,830

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by kgnju View Post
    Sorry,no reply.Uhh,do you have any information, Maciamo?
    just a bet - I should say the Danish people: I think (like others) Denmark has been the cradle of the melting that gave way to the germanic genesis after an acculturation by the South or South East (Corded Y-R1a and Bell Beakers, but with a core population of R1b-U102 and I1, concerning the Y-DNA... I'm not sure at all that Corded gave their language I see better as a kind of Satem one. Maybe Bell Beakers spite their small numbers there played a moreimportant role in the indo-europeanization of pre-germanic peoples -

  4. #4
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm not sure at all that Corded gave their language I see better as a kind of Satem one. Maybe Bell Beakers spite their small numbers there played a moreimportant role in the indo-europeanization of pre-germanic peoples -
    The Corded Ware period, in my opinion, predates the Centum-Satem split, due to the fact that you have common Germanic/Balto-Slavic vocabulary that predates the split (eg. English 'gold' vs. Latvian 'zelts' vs. Russian 'zoloto').

    In my opinion, the earliest that could be vaguely recognized as 'Germanic' would have emerged during the Nordic Bronze Age.

  5. #5
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,830

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Corded Ware period, in my opinion, predates the Centum-Satem split, due to the fact that you have common Germanic/Balto-Slavic vocabulary that predates the split (eg. English 'gold' vs. Latvian 'zelts' vs. Russian 'zoloto').

    In my opinion, the earliest that could be vaguely recognized as 'Germanic' would have emerged during the Nordic Bronze Age.
    predate, OK - but what signifies this common vocabulary? - and what proves the corded language was not yet a 'satem' one? it's difficult to know where the flood of words was coming from in the loans and - if we don't have palatized 'satem' words in germanic, it don't prove the shift was not made yet - it could only prove that germanics did'nt loan a lot of words on proto-satem languages - for someones a 'satem' language was spoken in Lappland before the arrival of finnic speakers (substratums of 'satem' and of a kind of basque for this finnic land) -
    nevertheless I recognize I'm not a specialist on the common proto-germanic-proto-slavic-baltic languages - I 'll go to fish some more items
    good luke

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,040

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by kgnju View Post
    In Genetics, as modern ethnicity as concerned, which country could best represent the earlist Germanic people? Denmark, Norway, Sweden or Holland?
    Should I put Germany into the list undoubtly?
    It is not sure there ever was a homogenous Germanic people. I think Germanics have been heterogeneous from the beginning. The hybrid genesis of Germanics supports this view.
    Denmark is a good candidate, but in my view a bit too much western genetically.
    I'd prefer Norway, because even today it is genetically diverse, in a local sense, despite it probably was not the epicentre of Germanic enthnogenesis. But its isolated location makes it even more a candidate.

    Take Tröndelag for example (region around Tondheim), which has a strangely high R1a level, without any known slavic or recent eastern influx. Despite I'm rather sceptical about racial classifiactions of authors like Coon, it is remarkable that Coon identified the so-called Trönder type, found predominantly in Tröndelag. It is even more impressive that Coon proposed Trönder to be a mixture of Brünn (considered as "palaeolithic") with Corded type. And we know that Corded ware culture is believed to have been predominantly R1a! One mystery though is that those R1a clades in Norway have been found to have closest matches in Central Asia, not Eastern Europe. I have no clue why is that.
    At the same time, Norway has regions with high R1b concentration, and others with mostly I1. There are almost no other Haplogroups, as opposed to neighboring Sweden (N) and Denmark (R1b, J2).

    Conclusion: first candidate is Norway.

    An alternative but less likely candidate could be the fertile plains of northern germany, because few authors believe it to have been tha cradle of Germanic ethnics and the local population has not been replaced or mixed significantly since the Saxons, except in Northeast Germany. To be more exact: Lower Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein and parts of Mecklenburg-Pomerania are good candidates. Westphalia might be already too celtic.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,843

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    It is not sure there ever was a homogenous Germanic people. I think Germanics have been heterogeneous from the beginning. The hybrid genesis of Germanics supports this view.
    Denmark is a good candidate, but in my view a bit too much western genetically.
    I'd prefer Norway, because even today it is genetically diverse, in a local sense, despite it probably was not the epicentre of Germanic enthnogenesis. But its isolated location makes it even more a candidate.

    Take Tröndelag for example (region around Tondheim), which has a strangely high R1a level, without any known slavic or recent eastern influx. Despite I'm rather sceptical about racial classifiactions of authors like Coon, it is remarkable that Coon identified the so-called Trönder type, found predominantly in Tröndelag. It is even more impressive that Coon proposed Trönder to be a mixture of Brünn (considered as "palaeolithic") with Corded type. And we know that Corded ware culture is believed to have been predominantly R1a! One mystery though is that those R1a clades in Norway have been found to have closest matches in Central Asia, not Eastern Europe. I have no clue why is that.
    At the same time, Norway has regions with high R1b concentration, and others with mostly I1. There are almost no other Haplogroups, as opposed to neighboring Sweden (N) and Denmark (R1b, J2).

    Conclusion: first candidate is Norway.

    An alternative but less likely candidate could be the fertile plains of northern germany, because few authors believe it to have been tha cradle of Germanic ethnics and the local population has not been replaced or mixed significantly since the Saxons, except in Northeast Germany. To be more exact: Lower Saxony, Schleswig-Holstein and parts of Mecklenburg-Pomerania are good candidates. Westphalia might be already too celtic.
    I do not know about the gennetic of Germanic people,
    but from Linguistic if IE is a Caucasian language, then Germanic root must come from there
    possibility that IE split around Pannoni Basin and around Romania
    means that Germanic or pre-Germanic if you like first spoken at areas more and far east than Norway and modern Germany
    maybe proto-Germanic where developed there you mention with a return backwards and finalize the forms and soynds of later called Germanic languages.

    a possible case that Germanic are Anatolian Branches might connect them with lower Balkans Thracians and Dacians, I mean that if Anatolian IE might pass from Balkans as far pre-Germanic and transform to proto Germanic at another areas.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,040

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I do not know about the gennetic of Germanic people,
    but from Linguistic if IE is a Caucasian language, then Germanic root must come from there
    possibility that IE split around Pannoni Basin and around Romania
    means that Germanic or pre-Germanic if you like first spoken at areas more and far east than Norway and modern Germany
    maybe proto-Germanic where developed there you mention with a return backwards and finalize the forms and soynds of later called Germanic languages.

    a possible case that Germanic are Anatolian Branches might connect them with lower Balkans Thracians and Dacians, I mean that if Anatolian IE might pass from Balkans as far pre-Germanic and transform to proto Germanic at another areas.
    You mention a hypothetic linguistic root of pre-Germanic. But those hypothetic pre-Germanic speakers (R1b?) where only one of several contributors to the stock of final Germanics. Consequently, pre-Germanic language is likely to differ from final Germanic language, though I'm not familiar with linguistics. As I learnt here, the Germanic language matches well the tri-hybrid haplogroup composition (R1b,R1a,I1). Even if that is a coincidence, I don't believe those three haplogroups coexisted already among those hypothetic pre-Germanics.

    Regarding your balkan hypothesis, I wonder why exactly those assumed Thracian/Dacian HGs (J2, E) are almost missing exactly in scandinavia then. The presence of I1 in balkans can be rather explained by later Germanic migrations towards the Balkans. Even the celts presumably carried some J2 and E. But I have yet to learn more about germanic R1b and why it did not carry more southern HGs to the north.

    I agree that there are also native satem words in scandinavian languages, for instance 'gaate' (riddle) and 'paa' (at/on). But I believe this comes either from Corded Ware or Iranian Languages from the east.

  9. #9
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    predate, OK - but what signifies this common vocabulary? - and what proves the corded language was not yet a 'satem' one? it's difficult to know where the flood of words was coming from in the loans and - if we don't have palatized 'satem' words in germanic, it don't prove the shift was not made yet - it could only prove that germanics did'nt loan a lot of words on proto-satem languages - for someones a 'satem' language was spoken in Lappland before the arrival of finnic speakers (substratums of 'satem' and of a kind of basque for this finnic land) -
    nevertheless I recognize I'm not a specialist on the common proto-germanic-proto-slavic-baltic languages - I 'll go to fish some more items
    good luke
    What signifies common vocabulary is that you have words that do apply to centum/satem sound laws respectively. In the case of the example I gave, the common Germanic-Balto-Slavic word for 'gold' derives from the common PIE root *g´hel- which is also for example found in Old Irish "gel" (white) and Greek "chlōros" (green). Additionally, the word was borrowed into the Finnic languages (Finnish "kulta"). It's actually easier than you think to find out in regard for loanwords because you cannot reversely centumize/satemize a word when you loan it. The oldest written evidence for the Centum/Satem split are Mycenean Greek (for Centum) and the "Mitanni" Indo-Iranic loanwords found in Hurrian (for Satem), both which date from the mid 2nd millennium BC. Since the Corded Ware period was about 1000-1500 years earlier, my opinion is that the Centum/Satem split only occured between the late 3rd millennium BC and the early 2nd millennium BC.

  10. #10
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    I believe that germanic commenced with I1 from around southern sweden, southern denmark/german area and odense island chain and firstly progressed northwards. The area was "invaded" via poland by R1a and this enabled germanic people to reach the black sea. Is it not strange that no Finnish N made no impression in scandinavian areas and was not carried by any migrational people or barbarian invasions
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  11. #11
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,830

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What signifies common vocabulary is that you have words that do apply to centum/satem sound laws respectively. In the case of the example I gave, the common Germanic-Balto-Slavic word for 'gold' derives from the common PIE root *g´hel- which is also for example found in Old Irish "gel" (white) and Greek "chlōros" (green). Additionally, the word was borrowed into the Finnic languages (Finnish "kulta"). It's actually easier than you think to find out in regard for loanwords because you cannot reversely centumize/satemize a word when you loan it. The oldest written evidence for the Centum/Satem split are Mycenean Greek (for Centum) and the "Mitanni" Indo-Iranic loanwords found in Hurrian (for Satem), both which date from the mid 2nd millennium BC. Since the Corded Ware period was about 1000-1500 years earlier, my opinion is that the Centum/Satem split only occured between the late 3rd millennium BC and the early 2nd millennium BC.
    OK for the dating of the split - I spend some time trying (to play) to find common roots between west present day I-E languages and slavic ones - as you say it's easy to find some lona words after the diverse phonetic shifts occurred - BUT BEFORE THAT??? my purpose was to discuss the reality of loan words in germanic from 'satem' languages BEFORE the palatizing of these last ones AND (it's differetnt) the so called 'proto-germanic-proto-slavic language community' someones seam to hold on (I'm not found of this hypothesis)

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    I think early Germanic's were I2b and R1a(more I2b) in Europe and I1 and R1a(more I1) in Scandinavia. They assimilated the R1b Celts. The elite were warriors and the citizens were R1b, so after a lot of war eventually R1b come to prevail

  13. #13
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK for the dating of the split - I spend some time trying (to play) to find common roots between west present day I-E languages and slavic ones - as you say it's easy to find some lona words after the diverse phonetic shifts occurred - BUT BEFORE THAT??? my purpose was to discuss the reality of loan words in germanic from 'satem' languages BEFORE the palatizing of these last ones AND (it's differetnt) the so called 'proto-germanic-proto-slavic language community' someones seam to hold on (I'm not found of this hypothesis)
    You seem to have a misconception about the Centum/Satem split. You have to consider that neither Centum nor Satem is the original state. You have to consider that we are talking about a set of three different sounds called the palatovelars (*k´, *g´and *g´h) which are merged with the plain velars in the Centum languages (*k, *g, *gh), whereas they are turned into fricative sounds in the Satem languages. Since both Centum and Satem languages have plain velars (*k, *g, *gh) and a fricative inherited from PIE (*s) that correspond to each other regardless of their centum/satem affiliation (though they are obviously subject to individual sound laws in the respective language / language family).

    My point with the above example was that this is a word that requires a common root word from before the Centum/Satem split.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,843

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    You mention a hypothetic linguistic root of pre-Germanic. But those hypothetic pre-Germanic speakers (R1b?) where only one of several contributors to the stock of final Germanics. Consequently, pre-Germanic language is likely to differ from final Germanic language, though I'm not familiar with linguistics. As I learnt here, the Germanic language matches well the tri-hybrid haplogroup composition (R1b,R1a,I1). Even if that is a coincidence, I don't believe those three haplogroups coexisted already among those hypothetic pre-Germanics.

    Regarding your balkan hypothesis, I wonder why exactly those assumed Thracian/Dacian HGs (J2, E) are almost missing exactly in scandinavia then. The presence of I1 in balkans can be rather explained by later Germanic migrations towards the Balkans. Even the celts presumably carried some J2 and E. But I have yet to learn more about germanic R1b and why it did not carry more southern HGs to the north.

    I agree that there are also native satem words in scandinavian languages, for instance 'gaate' (riddle) and 'paa' (at/on). But I believe this comes either from Corded Ware or Iranian Languages from the east.

    Maybe becausse Gothic starts from Crimaia and Romania Staring Point?
    Maybe cause Strabo clarifies Visigotjs at Balck sea at early 1rst Millenium AD,
    or you do not Consider Goths as Germanic family speaking,
    maybe cause centum satem is not that old in IE?

    and at least dacian seems to be a link among modern Germanic and modern Slavic,
    Centum-satem split in North should be that old, as you believe,
    we probably have movements of population much near today than we believe to modern languages, even at known Historical times,
    besides the typical R1a = Slavic is tottaly wrong
    since we have very low ratio in areas of South Balkans, although we have south slavic languages,
    by reading Herodotus we find 2 groups in Thracian the Getae and the Thracians
    that probably is the time of split to Centum-satem
    and these languages especially Getae should be at the move of Germans to west (already had started but did not finish at Herodotus times)

    Considering that Herodotus mentions them as the 2nd Biggest nation in the world and from the Geografy Herodotus knew, he means either the Slavs either the Germans (all branches)

    Just think the wallachians the Bastarnae and the Crimea
    Gothic were spoken until 1900 at Crimea,

    except if you believe that all the above were remnants of Viking invasion at Volga river and their settling at Ucraine,

  15. #15
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You seem to have a misconception about the Centum/Satem split. You have to consider that neither Centum nor Satem is the original state. You have to consider that we are talking about a set of three different sounds called the palatovelars (*k´, *g´and *g´h) which are merged with the plain velars in the Centum languages (*k, *g, *gh), whereas they are turned into fricative sounds in the Satem languages. Since both Centum and Satem languages have plain velars (*k, *g, *gh) and a fricative inherited from PIE (*s) that correspond to each other regardless of their centum/satem affiliation (though they are obviously subject to individual sound laws in the respective language / language family).

    My point with the above example was that this is a word that requires a common root word from before the Centum/Satem split.
    I have a small request. Can you make a thread with explanation of the sounds. I'm not sure often what are the sounds you are referring too. Is there a website on internet with these sounds recorded, so we can hear them?

  16. #16
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Maybe becausse Gothic starts from Crimaia and Romania Staring Point?
    Maybe cause Strabo clarifies Visigotjs at Balck sea at early 1rst Millenium AD,
    or you do not Consider Goths as Germanic family speaking,
    maybe cause centum satem is not that old in IE?

    and at least dacian seems to be a link among modern Germanic and modern Slavic,
    Centum-satem split in North should be that old, as you believe,
    we probably have movements of population much near today than we believe to modern languages, even at known Historical times,
    besides the typical R1a = Slavic is tottaly wrong
    since we have very low ratio in areas of South Balkans, although we have south slavic languages,
    by reading Herodotus we find 2 groups in Thracian the Getae and the Thracians
    that probably is the time of split to Centum-satem
    and these languages especially Getae should be at the move of Germans to west (already had started but did not finish at Herodotus times)

    Considering that Herodotus mentions them as the 2nd Biggest nation in the world and from the Geografy Herodotus knew, he means either the Slavs either the Germans (all branches)

    Just think the wallachians the Bastarnae and the Crimea
    Gothic were spoken until 1900 at Crimea,

    except if you believe that all the above were remnants of Viking invasion at Volga river and their settling at Ucraine,
    there is still gothic spoken in the crimea today

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    18-09-11
    Posts
    155


    Country: Canada



    You should have put your comment in quotation marks and added (Busbecq) at the end (:=)))

  18. #18
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    there is still gothic spoken in the crimea today

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic
    Zanipolo, I think you don't read what you link us to.
    It says that Gothic, or some form of it, was extinct by 18 century there.

  19. #19
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Zanipolo, I think you don't read what you link us to.
    It says that Gothic, or some form of it, was extinct by 18 century there.
    maybe I need to supply you with more infor than just wiki. Since I thought you clever enough to realise that this gothic in the crimea is from ancient times and not modern times .............or are you saying the Gothic raised its head in the 18th century and never existed before in the Crimea!
    If this is what you believe then let me know where this 18th century gothic derived from?

  20. #20
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    First of all cool down, concentrate and read again what I wrote.

  21. #21
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    First of all cool down, concentrate and read again what I wrote.
    I am calm, I find it annoying that you question me and not the link. Your question should have said something to that. By quering me, you try to gain some kind of points on me..........this is how it feels to me.
    If you believe that link is wrong , written badly or that you have a more correct theory, then reply to that and not against me who provided a link just because I believe in ancient Gothic settlement in the crimea.

  22. #22
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    I barely pointed the inconsistency of your statement with your link. You said:
    there is still gothic spoken in the crimea today
    You didn't say that it was spoken, that it used to be spoken. You said that it is spoken today. The link that you gave us clearly states that Gothic is not spoken today in Crimea. On contrary it says that it got extinct around 17 hundreds.

    My one sentence post was just about yours inconsistent statement with the link, and nothing more. If you claim that goth is still spoken than link us with material that confirms your hypothesis, but don't link us with contrary material. It is not helpful and as you can see, it created a little misunderstanding here.

    Furthermore, from this mentioned sentence of mine, you has built up whole opinion of mine over goth in Crimea.

    or are you saying the Gothic raised its head in the 18th century and never existed before in the Crimea!
    That's creative. Without me saying anything, even remotely like this, you can have a whole argument with me.
    Did you ever read the article that you linked us with? You are not in agreement with the article, period.



    If this is what you believe then let me know where this 18th century Gothic derived from?
    Again, you know what I believe without me telling you what I believe?
    I have to state again that the link you gave us contradicts your opinion. The link says that Gothic was extinct by 18th century, not that it has just started. The link says that Gothic was gone, extinct, over, finito by 18th century, and it is not spoken today in Crimea.
    Don't argue with me, I'm just a messenger, argue with your link.


    And for your information, I do believe that there were leftover communities of goths since their main departure to the west. Some villages might have survived till recent times, even 19 century. I'm not sure if what survived at the end would have been recognized as gothic language though. After 1500 hundred years under tatars, slavs, plus small size of communities would create unrecognizable gothic dialect.

  23. #23
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I barely pointed the inconsistency of your statement with your link. You said:

    You didn't say that it was spoken, that it used to be spoken. You said that it is spoken today. The link that you gave us clearly states that Gothic is not spoken today in Crimea. On contrary it says that it got extinct around 17 hundreds.

    My one sentence post was just about yours inconsistent statement with the link, and nothing more. If you claim that goth is still spoken than link us with material that confirms your hypothesis, but don't link us with contrary material. It is not helpful and as you can see, it created a little misunderstanding here.

    Furthermore, from this mentioned sentence of mine, you has built up whole opinion of mine over goth in Crimea.


    That's creative. Without me saying anything, even remotely like this, you can have a whole argument with me.
    Did you ever read the article that you linked us with? You are not in agreement with the article, period.




    Again, you know what I believe without me telling you what I believe?
    I have to state again that the link you gave us contradicts your opinion. The link says that Gothic was extinct by 18th century, not that it has just started. The link says that Gothic was gone, extinct, over, finito by 18th century, and it is not spoken today in Crimea.
    Don't argue with me, I'm just a messenger, argue with your link.


    And for your information, I do believe that there were leftover communities of goths since their main departure to the west. Some villages might have survived till recent times, even 19 century. I'm not sure if what survived at the end would have been recognized as gothic language though. After 1500 hundred years under tatars, slavs, plus small size of communities would create unrecognizable gothic dialect.
    Its because I read Michael Kazinski - Les Goths Iep-VIIe Apres written in 1991 which claims that the goths who remained became the Tatars. The name was given by Turkic people as Tat which means renegade. The crimean tatars still call themselves Goths and Circassians. He also said the dialect is not dead.

    Besides, what I link and what I think are sometimes different, so you would realise that Wiki stuff is not entirely accurate ( sometimes written by nationalists) , yet the links to that article could resolve the questions one seeks.

  24. #24
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,830

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You seem to have a misconception about the Centum/Satem split. You have to consider that neither Centum nor Satem is the original state. You have to consider that we are talking about a set of three different sounds called the palatovelars (*k´, *g´and *g´h) which are merged with the plain velars in the Centum languages (*k, *g, *gh), whereas they are turned into fricative sounds in the Satem languages. Since both Centum and Satem languages have plain velars (*k, *g, *gh) and a fricative inherited from PIE (*s) that correspond to each other regardless of their centum/satem affiliation (though they are obviously subject to individual sound laws in the respective language / language family).

    My point with the above example was that this is a word that requires a common root word from before the Centum/Satem split.

    OK but
    1° how it's possible in a global shift that some consonnants already in a language could mutate when others of the same qulity could remain without change? look at french, every latin word susceptible to change had changed, in langue d'oïl - the ones thant don't change are loan words from others néo-latin languages (occitan, spanish, italian...) or dialects (normanno-picard) - Even if that point is not central to our discussion here, I'm tempted to think that the slavic words with velar sounds are late enough loan words on other languages
    2° 'gold'/'zlato' is a good example of the 'satem' shift; it seams to prove contacts between germanic speakers and satem speakers (or proto-satem) before the satem shift - does it prove that the satem shift had not yet occurred at the corded period? Not for me - because I don't know if the loan traffic for this word was proto-satem to proto-germanic or proto-germanic to proto-satem (if it there was not yet a true satem language) - because Cordeds is not yet proved to be proto-germanic and because the contacts between proto-germanic speakers and (hypothetic I know) satem speakers could have taken place before, say in central or east-central Europe - so, the couple 'gold'-'zlato' could prove something only if it was from future 'satem' and future germanic.
    3° contacts are not a tight linguistic community
    it explains my question I have no answer to them for now.

  25. #25
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    MOSEAN, I cannot give a specific answer here because I am under the impression that you have a misconception of what Centum and Satem actually are. Therefore, I pick up LeBrok's proposal:
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have a small request. Can you make a thread with explanation of the sounds. I'm not sure often what are the sounds you are referring too. Is there a website on internet with these sounds recorded, so we can hear them?
    ... I will get back to that.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The elusive non-Germanic I1
    By sparkey in forum I1
    Replies: 135
    Last Post: 11-07-14, 19:42
  2. Celtic and Pre-Germanic
    By Taranis in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 25-04-13, 12:54
  3. Germanic culture
    By motatalea in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 27-02-10, 20:35
  4. Germanic countries Y-DNA
    By motatalea in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-05-09, 09:56
  5. Germanic given names
    By Maciamo in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 23-02-07, 12:11

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •