Revising the classification of Indo-European languages

[Yetos]

Yetos, you are on the wrong track. "Dorian" in this context does not refer to the Dorian dialect as recorded in classical Antiquity, but to the presumed "Dorian invasion" that brought the Mycenean civilization to an end.

What is clear is that there are some considerable differences between Mycenean Greek and Classical Greek:

- Mycenean Greek retained the sounds *gw and *kw from PIE, whereas in Classical Greek, these sounds were shifted to *b and *p respectively. An example of this would be Mycenean *ikwo- (written "I-Qo" in Linear B) versus Classical (and modern) Greek "Hippos". This development mirrors the development in the P-Celtic languages (Brythonic and Gaulish - though note that the *gw > *b development already must have occured here in Proto-Celtic), and therefore the idea that the Greek languages during the so-called 'dark ages' (between the demise of the Mycenean civilization and the adoption of the alphabet by the Greeks) were influenced by a form of what appears to be a form of P-Celtic is not quite that implausible. Alternatively, we can speculate that the same superstrate that produced the development in Celtic was also responsible for the changes in Greek. But, either way, it's certainly tempting to assume that a connection exists here.

Dorian invasion is 300 years after the Myceneans
the mycenean capital was already looted much before,
Doprians simply sent Achaians to North and took most of their culture,

The case of Ικκος equus and ippos and Dye with virb δυω is just small in numerical,

archaiology shows that Myceneans when Dorians came were already gone away from peloponese,
by following Mycenean culture and tomb system we find them travelling North to Istria (east of Venice) at about 200-500 BC

The P-celtic you mention is indeed the most closest to Greek language after the Aryan
but the known movements are the the pre mycenean at Illyria, , the later Galatian invasion

considering that Dorians were P-celtic
P -celtic are using much o Ionian much -e and -o while dorians -a
compare goddess Αθηνα -> Αθανα
so at least at vowel sounds more close to Celtic is the Ionic
word search give omnos = fear at Celtic as Ionian Greek do omnos = oath (fear of God)
comparing Dorian orkos
many times I gave links about Doric language and its aspirations,
Doric language follows Homeric Syntax (Συντακτικο) as rule while Ionian is not that tied to the rules,



just compare that Dorians had Zeus as primary god
Zeus is connected with Justice
in Northern the word Zeus must be Justice Justine etc
while in Athens a non Doric area we find the word Δικαιο Dikaio which comparing with Gaulish is Tekos -Tekas
as you see Ionic is more connected with gaulish than Dorian,

[spongetaro]

The Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppes first made incursions to the Balkans, and all of them passed through the Balkans (this wasn't exactly a fast migration, it took several centuries) before reaching Central and Western Europe. Yet, even after centuries since the first IE cultures (Cotsofeni, Cernavoda, Glina, Otomani, etc.) in the Balkans the vast majority of Indo-Europeans who reached Western Europe were R1b. I don't see why the migration to Greece, which was closer to the Pontic Steppes, would be any different. If the Mycenaeans did come through this early expansion of the southern Yamna culture, then all the chances are that they belonged overwhelmingly to R1b.

When an invasion occurs, invaders take people that they find on their way as soldiers. The Huns did it, the Turks did it. Furthermore, contrary to the Hunnic or Turkish invasion, the move of Pontic Indo Europeans to Greece took several centuries. There are anthropologic evidences of mixing between IE invaders and people from Cucuteni Tripoje:


http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/y14.htm

-Tripolje C1-C2 et Cucuteni B (3750-3100 BC) :
Les Tripoljiens atteignent la région de Kiev, d'Odessa et de la Desna. Les villes deviennent énormes (contenant jusqu'à 15000 habitants ou plus) et sont fortifiées. La présence de poteries cordées ("type Cucuteni C"), de haches de combat et de sceptres en forme de tête de cheval (comme chez les Pontiques) indique que les Tripoljiens sont désormais commandés par une aristocratie d'origine Pontique Indo-européenne provenant de la culture d'Usatovo. Même les squelettes indiquent que des populations de type "europoïde" (type des steppes) se sont mélées aux Tripoljiens de "race" méditerranéenne . Le peuple continue d'être enterré dans des tombes plates tripoljiennes alors que l'aristocratie utilise des kourganes. Les Tripoljiens indo-européanisés se diviseront alors progressivement en de nombreuses tribus et se joindront aux raids guerriers des Pontiques vers l'ouest.

Also, why the mixing between R1b/R1a and neolithic Ydna should have happen in Greece but not in Bulgaria, Roumania etc?
Compare it with the Viking and the Norman that invaded England. The Norman that invaded England in 1066 were not "pure" Scandinavian anymore but heavily mixed with people from Neustria plus Bretons, Flemings and Gascons.

[zanipolo]

Dorian invasion is 300 years after the Myceneans
the mycenean capital was already looted much before,
Doprians simply sent Achaians to North and took most of their culture,

The case of Ικκος equus and ippos and Dye with virb δυω is just small in numerical,

archaiology shows that Myceneans when Dorians came were already gone away from peloponese,
by following Mycenean culture and tomb system we find them travelling North to Istria (east of Venice) at about 200-500 BC

The P-celtic you mention is indeed the most closest to Greek language after the Aryan
but the known movements are the the pre mycenean at Illyria, , the later Galatian invasion

considering that Dorians were P-celtic
P -celtic are using much o Ionian much -e and -o while dorians -a
compare goddess Αθηνα -> Αθανα
so at least at vowel sounds more close to Celtic is the Ionic
word search give omnos = fear at Celtic as Ionian Greek do omnos = oath (fear of God)
comparing Dorian orkos
many times I gave links about Doric language and its aspirations,
Doric language follows Homeric Syntax (Συντακτικο) as rule while Ionian is not that tied to the rules,



just compare that Dorians had Zeus as primary god
Zeus is connected with Justice
in Northern the word Zeus must be Justice Justine etc
while in Athens a non Doric area we find the word Δικαιο Dikaio which comparing with Gaulish is Tekos -Tekas
as you see Ionic is more connected with gaulish than Dorian,

Are you talking about mycenean castellani culture in istria. If so, then there is a linguistic divide between P-illyrian and Q-Illyrian for this area.

Then again , due to the fact that Ligurian is the only aboriginal culture of North Italy, ranging from the Rhone river in France to modern Vienna , incorpoating Istria and the Lubarni , then the mycenrans would have influenced the linguistic area of the northern adriatic sea. Some scholars say, the word adriatic comes from the linguistic language of adria , a trade city which seems to have some mycenean connection

[Yetos]

Are you talking about mycenean castellani culture in istria. If so, then there is a linguistic divide between P-illyrian and Q-Illyrian for this area.

Then again , due to the fact that Ligurian is the only aboriginal culture of North Italy, ranging from the Rhone river in France to modern Vienna , incorpoating Istria and the Lubarni , then the mycenrans would have influenced the linguistic area of the northern adriatic sea. Some scholars say, the word adriatic comes from the linguistic language of adria , a trade city which seems to have some mycenean connection

the word Adias I do not know From where it is,

but many scholars compare the sou south Adriatic and the North,

the south has a name αμβρα ambra compare αμβρακια which means smooth sea, the later Ionian pelago
the N has name Adrias Αδριας which means rough sea

Αβρος and αδρος are very ancient Greek meaning smooth and rough

Yes I am talking about a line of Tubes that pass from peloponese to Epirus to Illyria even to dalmatia and stops at Istria,
the time estimation gives the more North the more younger,

The Adria you mention I am not sure if it was mycenean,

[Maciamo]

When an invasion occurs, invaders take people that they find on their way as soldiers. The Huns did it, the Turks did it. Furthermore, contrary to the Hunnic or Turkish invasion, the move of Pontic Indo Europeans to Greece took several centuries. There are anthropologic evidences of mixing between IE invaders and people from Cucuteni Tripoje:

In an Iron Age society where weapons are manufactured cheaply, yes maybe invaders recruit people on the way as soldiers. But the Bronze Age was totally different. Only the elite could afford bronze weapons. Actually there is a strong Indo-European tradition for the elite/nobility only to be warriors and for conquered people to be enslaved. This lasted deep in the Iron Age in the Celtic, Roman and Greek (e.g. Sparta) societies.

Also, why the mixing between R1b/R1a and neolithic Ydna should have happen in Greece but not in Bulgaria, Roumania etc?

I actually don't think that the IE migration to Greece carried both R1a and R1b because the two peoples were clearly separated when they left the steppes. R1a invaded the Balkans far later, in the Iron Age and Middle Ages.

Compare it with the Viking and the Norman that invaded England. The Norman that invaded England in 1066 were not "pure" Scandinavian anymore but heavily mixed with people from Neustria plus Bretons, Flemings and Gascons.

That was 4000 years after the Indo-European migrations. Obviously a lot of mixing had taken place by then !

[spongetaro]

In an Iron Age society where weapons are manufactured cheaply, yes maybe invaders recruit people on the way as soldiers. But the Bronze Age was totally different. Only the elite could afford bronze weapons. Actually there is a strong Indo-European tradition for the elite/nobility only to be warriors and for conquered people to be enslaved. This lasted deep in the Iron Age in the Celtic, Roman and Greek (e.g. Sparta) societies.

The Roman took Gaulish, Scythians, German mercenaries. Vercingetorix himself was a former Roman Legionar.

That was 4000 years after the Indo-European migrations. Obviously a lot of mixing had taken place by then !

My point is that in two generations, the invaders were completely mixed with the culture and people of the Land they had invaded (France).

I actually don't think that the IE migration to Greece carried both R1a and R1b because the two peoples were clearly separated when they left the steppes. R1a invaded the Balkans far later, in the Iron Age and Middle Ages.

I wrote R1a/ R1b because I don't know which of both is representative for Myceneans. My point is that you assume that the mixing with non IE people always occurs in well established civilizations like the Myceneans, the Romans, the Persian etc and not before (in the Balkans for instance).

[Maciamo]

The Roman took Gaulish, Scythians, German mercenaries. Vercingetorix himself was a former Roman Legionar.

The Romans changed the tradition during the empire. I was referring to the Republic (I thought it was obvious).

[Taranis]

The Centum root for goat is obviously *kapr- so I wonder why Mallory & Adams list 8 other PIE roots for goat. Goat is koza in all/most Slavic languages, kaza in Latvian and ozka in Lithuanian. Only one root here too, though a different one from the Centum languages. The Sanskrit word is aja, which was replaced by kamuk or bakri in Hindi. All three are probably of non-IE origin (unless bakri is a dyslexic inversion of kapri, like the Lithuanian ozka from koza).

I don't know where the other roots I listed above come from (Albanian, Dacian, Thracian, Armenian, Tocharian, Hittite ?) but it's unlikely that there are more than two PIE roots. Goat was the Neolithic animal par excellence (along with cattle), so in all likelihood local communities all over Europe, the Middle East and South Asia kept older words for it after the Indo-Europeans arrived. I noticed that words for domesticated animals tend to stick more than others after a change of language. Walloon is a Romance language, yet the word for goat is gat (Germanic) and the word for sheep is bedo, which is non-Indo-European.

I'd like to shed light on two words in the list here:

Albanian "cjap" (note that Albanian "c" is pronounced as "ts") has a cognate in Romanian "țap-", and hence can be traced to a common root *tsap-.


Furthermore, Sanskrit "aja" has cognates in Greek and Armenian. Bear in mind that "kapros" means 'boar', and an actual word for 'goat' is "aiga". In a similar fashion, Armenian has the word "aits". If we consider Indic and Armenian sound laws, the ancestral form can be faithfully reconstructed as *aig´-.

I have to make another addition here:


Regarding the Balto-Slavic word for "goat" (Russian "koza", Latvian "kaza"), it also exists in Anglo-Saxon as "hecen" (kid, young goat) and Albanian as "kedh" (an antiquated word for "young goat", thanks to Endri for verifying this). The ancestral form must be *kag´o-.

[Linas72]

I also believe that there wasn't one PIE language, but two. There were clearly two separate ethnic groups that spoke and diffused Indo-European languages: one originated in Anatolia and around the Black Sea under the dominant male lineage R1b, and one originating in the forest-steppe of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia led by R1a men. The two groups converged into one political and/or cultural entity, probably during the Yamna period, but did not mix much genetically. There must have been an exchange of ideas, technology, religion and vocabulary, but the two groups remained distinct and evolved separately, each migrating to different regions (at first, Southeast, Central and Western Europe for R1b, and Northern Europe, Central and South Asia for R1a).

But what about the grammair then? Satem languages share almost the same grammair with a number of ancient centem languages. The coincidence is significant even in details, what almost excludes possibility of later borrowing. Really, I as a person, who's mother's tongue still resembles this ancient structure in its grammair, can witness, what big weight the grammatic structures have for proving the identity of a language in such a case, so that a speaker of the language hardly can ignore it concentrating only on the identity of word roots - not entire words, what is significant here.

Goat is koza in all/most Slavic languages, kaza in Latvian and ozka in Lithuanian. Only one root here too, though a different one from the Centum languages.

Not exactly. A question still exists, whether Baltic and Slavic languages have one or two roots for goat. The situation is this:
he-goat Slavic kozel, Lithuanian ožys from *āžīs, Latvian azis
she-goat Slavic koza, Lithuanian ožka from *āžka, Latvian kaza (with some probability to be borrowed from koza)
The root *āž can easily be different from *koz /*kaz (with a short vowel!), while k in ožka can be a result of hybridization between two similar roots.

[Dagne]

According to this theory of early split between Rb1 and Ra1 Indo-Europeans such languages as Lithuanian and Latin should have very few similarities in their vocabulary, apart from international words adopted later. But there are many:
ovis- avis
rota - ratas,
senex - senis,
vir - vyras,
anguis - angis,
linum - linas,
aro - ariu,
iungo - jungiu,
gentes - gentys,
mensis - mėnesis,
dentes - dantys,
noctes - naktys,
semen - sėmenys
rete - rėtis
anas - antis
and these are just some ones...


and grammar, too, have some distinct similarities. These similarities must come through the PIE connection, but then could it be that the split happened such a long time ago?

[Taranis]

According to this theory of early split between Rb1 and Ra1 Indo-Europeans such languages as Lithuanian and Latin should have very few similarities in their vocabulary, apart from international words adopted later. But there are many:
ovis- avis
rota - ratas,
senex - senis,
vir - vyras,
anguis - angis,
linum - linas,
aro - ariu,
iungo - jungiu,
gentes - gentys,
mensis - mėnesis,
dentes - dantys,
noctes - naktys,
semen - sėmenys
rete - rėtis
anas - antis
and these are just some ones...


and grammar, too, have some distinct similarities. These similarities must come through the PIE connection, but then could it be that the split happened so long time ago?

I absolutely agree. It's not just between Latin/Italic and Baltic, between Germanic and Balto-Slavic, between Greek and the Indo-Iranic languages, and so on, that all criss-cross the Centum/Satem split.

I would think it is far more likely that R1b people (like of the L23 subclade) adopted an Indo-European language down the road. I have my doubts, however, that even this runs along the lines of the Centum/Satem split.

[Goga]

Let say that R1b is not native to Europe and by native I mean that R1b was in West Europe before the ice age.

Are you sure that the European R1b was in Anatolia first and later migrated into the Pontic Steppes? Maybe it was the other way. Maybe the Pontic Steppes were first populated by R1b folks who were forced to migrate into Europe and Anatolia because the big mass of hordes of R1a folks that came from the east and pulled the small population of R1b folks out of the Northern Caucasus.

I think it's plausible and very realistic that there was an interaction between the folks in the Pontic Steppes and the Mesopotamia (West Asia). Some R1b folks from the Pontic Steppes migrated into West Asia while the other part moved to Europe right from the Pontic Steppes! Later R1a folks from the East filled the vacuum.

[zanipolo]

Let say that R1b is not native to Europe and by native I mean that R1b was in West Europe before the ice age.

Are you sure that the European R1b was in Anatolia first and later migrated into the Pontic Steppes? Maybe it was the other way. Maybe the Pontic Steppes were first populated by R1b folks who were forced to migrate into Europe and Anatolia because the big mass of hordes of R1a folks that came from the east and pulled the small population of R1b folks out of the Northern Caucasus.

I think it's plausible and very realistic that there was an interaction between the folks in the Pontic Steppes and the Mesopotamia (West Asia). Some R1b folks from the Pontic Steppes migrated into West Asia while the other part moved to Europe right from the Pontic Steppes! Later R1a folks from the East filled the vacuum.

i also seen many sites where R1b commenced in spain !?

[Goga]

i also seen many sites where R1b commenced in spain !?

Yes! My point is that it is better to find true ancient migration R1b routes. And then we should come with propositions about languages.

According to me R1b is not fixed to a region yet. Sometimes I do think that R1b is an ancient or linked to a Southwest European or Mediterranean component / haplogroup.