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Thread: K12a admixture calculator

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    It's not only Southwest, just a general European cluster with substantial Western affinities. The figure for Sardinians it's too high to be only Southwest, and what the British, Irish, and some Central European get, does not make sense if it's pure Southwestern. The Euro7 Calculator show Sardinians are far from being the most Southwestern, so specially their percent does not match the estimation.
    Interestingly Sardinians are the farthest population for me, according to K12a calculator.

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    Yes that's what it seems. To be sure, it's very easy: just do the Dodecad Oracle with their average and see what they get in the top 10. Possibly the second population will appear unusually far, and none of the other ethnic groups could recieve such report.

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    Here is:

    DodecadOracle("Sardinian")
    [,1] [,2]
    [1,] "Sardinian" "0"
    [2,] "French_Basque" "28.1787"
    [3,] "IBS" "34.1048"
    [4,] "Spanish_D" "34.5345"
    [5,] "Spaniards" "34.5571"
    [6,] "Portuguese_D" "38.0122"
    [7,] "North_Italian" "38.161"
    [8,] "TSI25" "41.2697"
    [9,] "N_Italian_D" "42.2777"
    [10,] "Tuscan" "42.5162"

    - 28 the second and 34 the third is a very huge distance as expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Here is:

    DodecadOracle("Sardinian")
    [,1] [,2]
    [1,] "Sardinian" "0"
    [2,] "French_Basque" "28.1787"
    [3,] "IBS" "34.1048"
    [4,] "Spanish_D" "34.5345"
    [5,] "Spaniards" "34.5571"
    [6,] "Portuguese_D" "38.0122"
    [7,] "North_Italian" "38.161"
    [8,] "TSI25" "41.2697"
    [9,] "N_Italian_D" "42.2777"
    [10,] "Tuscan" "42.5162"

    - 28 the second and 34 the third is a very huge distance as expected.
    Compare it with the original DodecadOraclev1 version.

    DodecadOracle("Sardinian")
    [,1] [,2]
    [1,] "Sardinian" "0"
    [2,] "North_Italian" "11.4617"
    [3,] "IBS" "13.0847"
    [4,] "Spanish_D" "13.7445"
    [5,] "Spaniards" "15.2315"
    [6,] "N_Italian_D" "15.8146"
    [7,] "Portuguese_D" "16.0297"
    [8,] "Tuscan" "16.3536"
    [9,] "O_Italian_D" "20.2754"
    [10,] "C_Italian_D" "22.7405"

    The Sardinian component seems to have undergone a substantial shift from it being closer to North Italian in the standard version to French Basque being the closest pop (not close though @ 28) in the current OracleK12a version.

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    Correct Dorian, for this reason I don't think this Mediterranean means Southwestern or even plain Southern, it's too general: unusually high in several Northern areas and it's also the main component in both Sardinians and Basques. Dienekes' seems to be happy with this run for what I read, but several things look very strange.

    I really wonder what kind of changes will be made on the Dodecad v4 if it's based on the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Correct Dorian, for this reason I don't think this Mediterranean means Southwestern or even plain Southern, it's too general: unusually high in several Northern areas and it's also the main component in both Sardinians and Basques. Dienekes' seems to be happy with this run for what I read, but several things look very strange.I really wonder what kind of changes will be made on the Dodecad v4 if it's based on the same.
    Actually considering this Mediterranean component of K12a South European is very correct. There is not much more of the Mediterranean element in North Europe as there is North European component among South Europeans. So why assume that North Europeans should have less South European influence as South Europeans had North European influence? Didnt South Europe had more influence on North Europe than other way around? In my opinion K12a makes more sense than v3. Here I made a Near Eastern map were I placed some popuulations based on their admixture.Note that the Kurds_Y and Kurd_D samples are almost all from Northeast Iraq and (North)west Iran.

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    It's still too high in Northern Europe, just check what Scandinavians get: Sweden (33.5%), Norway (36%)...and too bad there are no Danish averages. Without considering English, Germans, Dutch and so on, who get very high figures.

    Of course there's Southern European influence in Northern Europe, but not that high (specially in the Northernmost). If we don't assume it's just a general European cluster it doesn't fit, because for the same reason we could see more Northern European influence in Southern Europe, but it's not the same high. And curiously, in largely Mongoloid populations (Selkup, Ket), the Northern European appears higher than in Southern European countries reporting 25% or more, which in my opinion makes no sense. Southern Europeans should get more almost all times and it's rather the opposite, so I personally can't agree with your analysis.

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    Actually there is more "mediterranean" in Scandinavia than in Greece or Italy, so no, it's clearly not mediterranean. The label is wrong. It's more like a Southwestern component, since it peak in Basques/Sardinians, and is very high in germanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    It's still too high in Northern Europe, just check what Scandinavians get: Sweden (33.5%), Norway (36%)...and too bad there are no Danish averages. Without considering English, Germans, Dutch and so on, who get very high figures.

    Of course there's Southern European influence in Northern Europe, but not that high (specially in the Northernmost). If we don't assume it's just a general European cluster it doesn't fit, because for the same reason we could see more Northern European influence in Southern Europe, but it's not the same high. And curiously, in largely Mongoloid populations (Selkup, Ket), the Northern European appears higher than in Southern European countries reporting 25% or more, which in my opinion makes no sense. Southern Europeans should get more almost all times and it's rather the opposite, so I personally can't agree with your analysis.

    The same could be said about the North European component. You got 34% Mediterraean in Germans vs 25% North European in Spaniards. You got 36% Mediterranean in Norwegians vs 34% North European in Bulgarians. There is hardly a difference. If we consider Mediterranean(South European) as generel European we would have to consider North European as the same too. Historical it even would make more sense when North Europeans have more South European Genes as the other way around. Just think about Roman or the Neolthic expansion. Or the general Caucasoid expansion from a Southern Region. So it would generally make more sense if North Europeans have a chunk more southern Genes as the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Actually there is more "mediterranean" in Scandinavia than in Greece or Italy, so no, it's clearly not mediterranean. The label is wrong. It's more like a Southwestern component, since it peak in Basques/Sardinians, and is very high in germanics.
    Its tendency is more towards Southwest Europe I agree but calling it South European would even come clother to reality than "general" European. The best name for this element is Southwest European imo.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is beginning to resemble an earlier discussion elsewhere (Dna forums? Can't quite remember) as to the appropriateness of "Western" versus "Eastern" European, who had more or less etc.. (with Poles dissatisfied at Ukrainian high scores). Perhaps Dienekes should change his nomenclature entirely and call his categories "A", "B" "C" etc.. or some other combinations (like "aa" "bb" so as not to confuse with haplogroups). Because it's really a question of genetic material, not of geography, politics, or ethnicity. A more neutral set of categories would be less conducive to (perhaps) needless debates.
    Last edited by razor; 20-12-11 at 01:21. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    This is beginning to resemble an earlier discussion elsewhere (Dna forums? Can't quite remember) as to the appropriateness of "Western" versus "Eastern" European, who had more or less etc.. (with Poles dissatisfied at Ukrainian high scores). Perhaps Dienekes should change his nomenclature entirely and call his categories "A", "B" "C" etc.. or some other combinations (like "aa" "bb" so as not to confuse with haplogroups). Because it's really a question of genetic material, not of geography, politics, or ethnicity. A more neutral set of categories would be less conducive to (perhaps) needless debates.
    I agree fully. Some people take the terms of components too literally and some use these terms, to bash other.

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    At some level of resolution I personally prefer clear definitions for the components to avoid confusions. I think that's the logic way to proceed.

    And no, the present North European is not general since it's much more focussed in Northern Europe than the Mediterranean is in Southern Europe (as I said, it's just focussed in Europe as whole), but it's also obvious there is an Asian overlap as atested by some of the mentioned results. That's the main reason why the Caucasus + Gedrosian is that low among Northern Europeans in comparison with Southern Europeans.

    Basically, you can't expect populations that are open to Asia being less Asian than other's who aren't. As I said, finding more Sothwest Asian and Northwest African in the Southwest side makes more sense than finding more Gedrosia + Caucasus. I think it's easy to understand, so the problem is not taking the components too literally, the problem is they should come clear as day at this level...and they don't. That's all.

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    North European
    Greek_D 18%
    O_Italian_D 20%
    Portuguese 25%
    Spaniards 25%
    Romanians 33%
    Bulgarian 35%


    Mediterranean (South European)
    Polish_D 24%
    Belorussians 18%
    Finnish_D 15%
    German_D 35%
    British_Isles 40%

    Are you really sure that their is any reason why we should assume that Mediterranean/South European is more general than North European? K12a in compare to v3 shows South Europeans as what they are, namely Mediterraneans with strong North European input while on v3 some South European populations appeared like a cross between Mediterraneans and North Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    North European
    Greek_D 18%
    O_Italian_D 20%
    Portuguese 25%
    Spaniards 25%
    Romanians 33%
    Bulgarian 35%


    Mediterranean (South European)
    Polish_D 24%
    Belorussians 18%
    Finnish_D 15%
    German_D 35%
    British_Isles 40%

    Are you really sure that their is any reason why we should assume that Mediterranean/South European is more general than North European? K12a in compare to v3 shows South Europeans as what they are, namely Mediterraneans with strong North European input while on v3 some South European populations appeared like a cross between Mediterraneans and North Europeans.
    Your comparison is not true for the reasons that the Northern component (which in reality is Balto-Finnic) is not higher in any Southern country than a northern country, while the reverse is true, there are Northern countries with higher Med than mediterranean countries, for example Scandianvia has more med than Greece, Italy or Cyprus. Simply, the genetics of Southern Europe are too diverse and complex, to just call it "mediterranean". Iberia or Sardinia are not your typical southern countries. What is high in Basques has nothing to do with Greece or Italy

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    The reason is in what Scandinavians, Germans, English, Irish, Dutch, Orcadians and even Lithuanians, Belorussians and the Finnish (yes) get. The Mediterranean figure for this last populations has increased a lot in comparison with previous analysis, and the North European decreased in Southern Europe drastically going up with the so called Mediterranean. Go and see by yourself the Basques if you want, you'll see they go from more than 50% West Euro to only 21.6% North Euro now.

    Of course is much general this Mediterranean, ¿how do you explain that so? And ¿how do you explain that largely Mongoloid populations now shift the Northern European results with higher figures than the Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks and Italians who are the closest neighbours? Note that Romanians and Bulgarians just get more because they lack most of this "Mediterranean" element, no need to say, because it's not Med or South Euro, it's another thing.

    I think all that I said it's enough important to think about it, and I haven't read any convincing explanation proving the opposite, however, I respect if you don't agree. In favor of this run I can say it works to distinguish populations (the previous were not bad in that issue though), the only problem is if the distintion is really correct or not for all I mentioned. Also, the points mentioned by Wilhelm ring the bells...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    there are Northern countries with higher Med than mediterranean countries, for example Scandianvia has more med than Greece, Italy or Cyprus. Simply, the genetics of Southern Europe are too diverse and complex, to just call it "mediterranean".
    Huh? This doesn't make any sense. How do you know that Scandinavians have more Med. component than Greece, Italy etc. Greece, Italye etc. ARE the mediterranean countries...

    Which data are you using?

    I see only the Finnish data. And it's says that Finns have for about 15.3% Med. component . While Greece has 30.4% and North Italy 42.5%. And Spain 52.9%.


    EDIT. Oh I see Sweden now and it has 33.5% Med. component. And Norway has 36% of Med component. Sorry for the mistake...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Your comparison is not true for the reasons that the Northern component (which in reality is Balto-Finnic) is not higher in any Southern country than a northern country, while the reverse is true, there are Northern countries with higher Med than mediterranean countries, for example Scandianvia has more med than Greece, Italy or Cyprus.
    On reverse they dont have more North European but Caucasus. And this is the reason why they share less Mediterranean.

    Simply, the genetics of Southern Europe are too diverse and complex, to just call it "mediterranean".Iberia or Sardinia are not your typical southern countries. What is high in Basques has nothing to do with Greece or Italy
    I knew that their is something else behind all this complains. Some people simply cant take that they are shown on Admixture programs as they in realty are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    On reverse they dont have more North European but Caucasus. And this is the reason why they share less Mediterranean.
    Well, no. There are southern countries with less Caucasus than some northern countries.

    I knew that their is something else behind all this complains. Some people simply cant take that they are shown on Admixture programs as they in realty are.
    It's not a complain, it's the truth. How do you explain then, that a component that peaks in Basques or Sardinians, is higher in Germanics than in Greeks or Italians ?

    Some people simply cant take that they are shown on Admixture programs as they in realty are.
    What reality do you talk about ? Im talking about facts. It's also not my fault that Spaniards are closer to Germanics than to Greeks or Sicilians. I think you are in the wrong forum, people here know what they are talking about, we are not inventing things up from air.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Just wanted to add an - perhaps naive - idea to this dicussion that Mediterranean could represent the (late) Palaeolithic, Combe-Capelle in particular. Although that was based on the Dodecad map, it is still be interesting.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...050#post390050

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    I also think that labelling admixture components is tricky because distinctions appear only on some deep historic level. As ElHorsto says Mediterranean may represent Palaeolithic Combe-Capelle (which is then in Palaeolithic was actually fully Mediterranean).
    Whereas North European could represent Palaeolithic Hunter - Gatherers. The agriculturalists from the South pushed them away from the North West Europe towards North East Europe some 4000 years ago ... That's why the present day Scandinavians (Norwegians, Swedes, Danes) have quite high Mediterranean component and the Chuvash which are way on the Eastern side of Europe almost in Siberia - have very high scores of the North European component. The Northern European component may reflect Old Europe's (Palaeolithic) Hunter-Gathers, the Pitted Ware culture.


    See an article:
    Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
    http://www.cell.com/...960982209016947

    "The driving force behind the transition from a foraging to a farming lifestyle in prehistoric Europe (Neolithization) has been debated for more than a century [1,2,3]. Of particular interest is whether population replacement or cultural exchange was responsible [3,4,5]. Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture [6]. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago [7,8]. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present [7,8]. Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia [7]. Furthermore, our data are consistent with the view that the eastern Baltic represents a genetic refugia for some of the European hunter-gatherer populations."

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It could represent what you say, the problem is that if "Mediterraneans" pushed the Northern hunter gatherers away, it's very unlikely that Russians only show 17% (vs 33-36% in Scandinavians) when they should be the most affected by this circumstance.

    We still return to the mentioned points if we want a reasonable explanation.

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    I think Neolithic revolution (farming) to Scandinavia came through the Mediterranean region and thus they have comparatively high genetic imprint of the Palaeolithic Mediterranean. Meanwhile farming to those proto-peoples who are the present day Russians must have come also via other routes and peoples.

    This would also explain why the Balkan nations also don’t have such high scores in the Mediterranean component though they are in geographic proximity to the Mediterranean region.

    Moreover, one should have in mind that if Russian samples are taken from the Northern parts of Russia (which I think is the case with Dienke’s samples) they have more of Finno-Ugric which also moves the Mediterranean scores down.

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    The European side of Russia it's quite big and diverse, ok, but note that actually there are 16 Dodecad samples and surely not all belong to the Northernmost, lacking then the Finno-Ugric element (substantially at least). I know the results for each Russian participant, and the maximum Mediterranean you can find is 26.1% in two individuals taking this run as reference, which it's still notably lower than the average for Scandinavians.

    And about the Balkans, we just need more data, since as whole it's probably the most heterogeneous region of all Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    I think Neolithic revolution (farming) to Scandinavia came through the Mediterranean region and thus they have comparatively high genetic imprint of the Palaeolithic Mediterranean. Meanwhile farming to those proto-peoples who are the present day Russians must have come also via other routes and peoples.
    Neolithic expansion was not necessarily the driving force which pushed Paleo-Meds to the north west. The Combe-Capelle finding was already in France 9500 years ago, without being neolithic. The arrows and stones found besides were from stone age hunter-gatherer time, no agriculture at all. Similar hunter-gatherer finds have been found also in the middle east. I believe that the ice free Atlantic coast had a more important role than neolithization.

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