K12a admixture calculator

The reason is in what Scandinavians, Germans, English, Irish, Dutch, Orcadians and even Lithuanians, Belorussians and the Finnish (yes) get. The Mediterranean figure for this last populations has increased a lot in comparison with previous analysis, and the North European decreased in Southern Europe drastically going up with the so called Mediterranean. Go and see by yourself the Basques if you want, you'll see they go from more than 50% West Euro to only 21.6% North Euro now.

Of course is much general this Mediterranean, ¿how do you explain that so? And ¿how do you explain that largely Mongoloid populations now shift the Northern European results with higher figures than the Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks and Italians who are the closest neighbours? Note that Romanians and Bulgarians just get more because they lack most of this "Mediterranean" element, no need to say, because it's not Med or South Euro, it's another thing.

I think all that I said it's enough important to think about it, and I haven't read any convincing explanation proving the opposite, however, I respect if you don't agree. In favor of this run I can say it works to distinguish populations (the previous were not bad in that issue though), the only problem is if the distintion is really correct or not for all I mentioned. Also, the points mentioned by Wilhelm ring the bells...
 
Wilhelm said:
there are Northern countries with higher Med than mediterranean countries, for example Scandianvia has more med than Greece, Italy or Cyprus. Simply, the genetics of Southern Europe are too diverse and complex, to just call it "mediterranean".
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Huh? This doesn't make any sense. How do you know that Scandinavians have more Med. component than Greece, Italy etc. Greece, Italye etc. ARE the mediterranean countries...

Which data are you using?

I see only the Finnish data. And it's says that Finns have for about 15.3% Med. component . While Greece has 30.4% and North Italy 42.5%. And Spain 52.9%.


EDIT. Oh I see Sweden now and it has 33.5% Med. component. And Norway has 36% of Med component. Sorry for the mistake...
 
Wilhelm said:
Your comparison is not true for the reasons that the Northern component (which in reality is Balto-Finnic) is not higher in any Southern country than a northern country, while the reverse is true, there are Northern countries with higher Med than mediterranean countries, for example Scandianvia has more med than Greece, Italy or Cyprus.
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On reverse they dont have more North European but Caucasus. And this is the reason why they share less Mediterranean.

Simply, the genetics of Southern Europe are too diverse and complex, to just call it "mediterranean".Iberia or Sardinia are not your typical southern countries. What is high in Basques has nothing to do with Greece or Italy
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I knew that their is something else behind all this complains. Some people simply cant take that they are shown on Admixture programs as they in realty are.
 
Alan said:
On reverse they dont have more North European but Caucasus. And this is the reason why they share less Mediterranean.
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Well, no. There are southern countries with less Caucasus than some northern countries.

I knew that their is something else behind all this complains. Some people simply cant take that they are shown on Admixture programs as they in realty are.
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It's not a complain, it's the truth. How do you explain then, that a component that peaks in Basques or Sardinians, is higher in Germanics than in Greeks or Italians ?

Some people simply cant take that they are shown on Admixture programs as they in realty are.
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What reality do you talk about ? Im talking about facts. It's also not my fault that Spaniards are closer to Germanics than to Greeks or Sicilians. I think you are in the wrong forum, people here know what they are talking about, we are not inventing things up from air.
 
I also think that labelling admixture components is tricky because distinctions appear only on some deep historic level. As ElHorsto says Mediterranean may represent Palaeolithic Combe-Capelle (which is then in Palaeolithic was actually fully Mediterranean).
Whereas North European could represent Palaeolithic Hunter - Gatherers. The agriculturalists from the South pushed them away from the North West Europe towards North East Europe some 4000 years ago ... That's why the present day Scandinavians (Norwegians, Swedes, Danes) have quite high Mediterranean component and the Chuvash which are way on the Eastern side of Europe almost in Siberia - have very high scores of the North European component. The Northern European component may reflect Old Europe's (Palaeolithic) Hunter-Gathers, the Pitted Ware culture.


See an article:
Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
http://www.cell.com/...960982209016947

"The driving force behind the transition from a foraging to a farming lifestyle in prehistoric Europe (Neolithization) has been debated for more than a century [1,2,3]. Of particular interest is whether population replacement or cultural exchange was responsible [3,4,5]. Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture [6]. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago [7,8]. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present [7,8]. Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia [7]. Furthermore, our data are consistent with the view that the eastern Baltic represents a genetic refugia for some of the European hunter-gatherer populations."
 
It could represent what you say, the problem is that if "Mediterraneans" pushed the Northern hunter gatherers away, it's very unlikely that Russians only show 17% (vs 33-36% in Scandinavians) when they should be the most affected by this circumstance.

We still return to the mentioned points if we want a reasonable explanation.
 
I think Neolithic revolution (farming) to Scandinavia came through the Mediterranean region and thus they have comparatively high genetic imprint of the Palaeolithic Mediterranean. Meanwhile farming to those proto-peoples who are the present day Russians must have come also via other routes and peoples.

This would also explain why the Balkan nations also don’t have such high scores in the Mediterranean component though they are in geographic proximity to the Mediterranean region.

Moreover, one should have in mind that if Russian samples are taken from the Northern parts of Russia (which I think is the case with Dienke’s samples) they have more of Finno-Ugric which also moves the Mediterranean scores down.
 
The European side of Russia it's quite big and diverse, ok, but note that actually there are 16 Dodecad samples and surely not all belong to the Northernmost, lacking then the Finno-Ugric element (substantially at least). I know the results for each Russian participant, and the maximum Mediterranean you can find is 26.1% in two individuals taking this run as reference, which it's still notably lower than the average for Scandinavians.

And about the Balkans, we just need more data, since as whole it's probably the most heterogeneous region of all Europe.
 
Dagne said:
I think Neolithic revolution (farming) to Scandinavia came through the Mediterranean region and thus they have comparatively high genetic imprint of the Palaeolithic Mediterranean. Meanwhile farming to those proto-peoples who are the present day Russians must have come also via other routes and peoples.
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Neolithic expansion was not necessarily the driving force which pushed Paleo-Meds to the north west. The Combe-Capelle finding was already in France 9500 years ago, without being neolithic. The arrows and stones found besides were from stone age hunter-gatherer time, no agriculture at all. Similar hunter-gatherer finds have been found also in the middle east. I believe that the ice free Atlantic coast had a more important role than neolithization.
 
As far as I remember there was a debate going on with regard to Dodecad sample of Russians as they come from Vologda, the North Central European Part of Russia.

Accroding to one observer "in fact, these results mirror the previous mtDNA and Y chromosome work with regards to East Asian admixture in Vologda Russians. If I recall correctly, sampled Tambov-area Russians registered no East Asian mtDNA or Y chromosomes; incidentally, this was the area of Russia described as being the most “Nordic” by Coon. More sampling is required, obviously."

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/the-genetic-heritage-of-europes-north/

It is not that Dienke did not want to choose a sample with better representation (including more Southern parts of Russia) but because Russians officially were not releasing other data.

Well, I don't know the origins of those K-12 admixture Russians, but they again may be from this selected group.
 
ElHorsto said:
Neolithic expansion was not necessarily the driving force which pushed Paleo-Meds to the north west. The Combe-Capelle finding was already in France 9500 years ago, without being neolithic. The arrows and stones found besides were from stone age hunter-gatherer time, no agriculture at all. Similar hunter-gatherer finds have been found also in the middle east. I believe that the ice free Atlantic coast had a more important role than neolithization.
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Yes, I agree, the true picture is much more complex to explain by some one event.
 
By the way Dagne, there are only 6 Lithuanians in the project, and just one Latvian and one Estonian joining Dodecad. The Baltic region obviously needs more representation, and I was wondering if you are already part of the Lithuanian samples or if you plan to test yourself in the near future.

Just curious, yours is a very interesting population.
 
No, I haven't tested... I should do it, agree. Perhaps when I have some free cash :)
According to Dienkes anthropometric calculator for females http://dienekes.awar...hro/indexf.html, I register by all parameters and independent parameters as 100% Iranian! :)
 
Dagne said:
No, I haven't tested... I should do it, agree. Perhaps when I have some free cash :)
According to Dienkes anthropometric calculator for females http://dienekes.awar...hro/indexf.html, I register by all parameters and independent parameters as 100% Iranian! :)
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Let us know when you do ;)

I don't think the mentioned calculator and the equivalent for males is truly reliable. The best to get an accurate idea of ones genetic background is always do as much autosomal tests as possible. You'll see then that you have little to do with Iranians, I'm sure xd.
 
Knovas said:
Let us know when you do ;)

I don't think the mentioned calculator and the equivalent for males is truly reliable. The best to get an accurate idea of ones genetic background is always do as much autosomal tests as possible. You'll see then that you have little to do with Iranians, I'm sure xd.
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Yes, I agree, I am way too much fair in complextion, blue eyed, blond, tall for an Iranian ...
 
Dagne said:
No, I haven't tested... I should do it, agree. Perhaps when I have some free cash :)
According to Dienkes anthropometric calculator for females http://dienekes.awar...hro/indexf.html, I register by all parameters and independent parameters as 100% Iranian! :)
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That's nonsense. I made a test with the anthropometric calculator and it said that I was from Slovenia :annoyed: (not even a Greek, like most guys on that site!). But every time when I look at the mirror I see an Iranic person and I'm happy again... :)
 
Goga said:
That's nonsense. I made a test with the anthropometric calculator and it said that I was from Slovenia :annoyed: (not even a Greek, like most guys on that site!). But every time when I look at the mirror I see an Iranic person and I'm happy again... :)
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Yes, I understand that anthropometric calcluators cannot be precise, but perhaps there is a somewhat connection? Goga, did you do the autosomal testing? What are those compared to other Iranians?
 
Dagne said:
Goga, did you do the autosomal testing? What are those compared to other Iranians?
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No, I don't have willingness to spend money on it. I want to do it for free, but I can't do it anywhere. I don't hurry cause I do know my parents and I know where I'm from. So I'm waiting for an opportunity do to it for free.

I'm of Kurdish origin. And since Kurds have the so called ancient 'Iranic' roots I do consider my ethnicity as Iranic.
 
Goga, we might know several generations before us, but we can never be sure of a deeper past without doing a test :)
 
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