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Thread: K12a admixture calculator

  1. #1
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    K12a admixture calculator

    Has anybody tried this one yet? :) http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12...t-al-2011.html

    Here are my results:


    0.85% Mediterranean
    0.70% Far_Asian
    0.00% Siberian
    10.16% North_European
    0.00% South_Asian
    0.00% West_African
    69.09% Caucasus
    11.61% Gedrosia
    0.00% East_African
    7.23% Southwest_Asian
    0.35% Southeast_Asian
    0.00% Northwest_African

    Seems more or less in accordance with the other tests

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    Yes I did, and I'm absolutely disappointed with such admixture proportions. Just to be quick:

    - The Caucasus and Gedrosia are both exagerated in all Southern Europe, and completely underestimated in the North. Just check the Greek average...they are about to be not European LOL.

    - Culmination: Dodecad v4 will be based on this. I hope this will get refined...if not, it's time to go.


    Here are mine, althought I desagree of course:

    56.84% Mediterranean
    25.48% North European
    6.97% Caucasus
    3.88% Southwest Asian
    2.41% Gedrosia
    2.14% Northwest African
    1.79% South Asian
    0.43% East African
    0.02% Southeast Asian
    0.02% West African
    0.01% Siberian
    0.00% Far Asian

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    Interesting :)

    Yes, the Caucasus component seems to be exaggerated even in my case :) I've never got such a high percentage before and my Mediterranean is practically gone...

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    Well, what you get makes much sense. It seems like with the new samples he's still experimenting...it's the only thing I can think to understand it.

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    Yes, that could be the reason..
    And now my results are more in accordance with Behar's Georgians'

    2,1% Mediterranean
    14,3% North_European
    73,4% Caucasus
    7,8% Gedrosia
    0,7% Southwest_Asian

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    Strange this run. Germanics, like the Dutch, Scandinavians or Birtish have about 40% of mediterranean, it has never been that high, I suspect the label is wrong, it is more like an Atlantic/Southwest component, since it peaks in Basques at 70%. As for the Gedrosian component, it is higher in northerns european than in Southern Europeans.

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    The new Gedrosian component has a European peak in Northwest Europe (10% in Orcadians, 9% in Irish, 7.5% in British, 8% in Dutch, 7% in Basques...) which seems to correlate with the (North-)West European component of the K=10 admixtures. Balto-Slavic people almost completely lack it though. This makes me wonder if part of this Gedrosian component does not actually belong to a Proto-Indo-European source (linked to R1b, not R1a) from the Northwest Caucasus region.

    The Caucasians have an equivalent percentage of Gedrosian as the one found in Northwest Europeans : 15% in the Kumyks (who have 20% of R1b, the 2nd highest in the Caucasus region after the Armenians), 11% in the Armenians (30% of R1b), 10% in the Adygeis, 8.5% in Abhkasians and Balkars (all three within the territory of Maykop Culture), 8% in the Georgians...

    I don't see how genes from Balochistan could have ended up in Northwest Europe. The Caucasus is far more likely. Besides, the Euro7 calculator already showed a similar peak in Northwest Europe for the Caucasus component (max. 9% in Argyll Scots).
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    This run makes no sense to me. Basically, I find plain impossible that Iberians could have more Caucasus + Gedrosian than Northern Europeans. Geography does not help to find such thing, all logic says it must be the opposite.

    As I said, if the v4 will be based on this, there are several things to fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    This run makes no sense to me. Basically, I find plain impossible that Iberians could have more Caucasus + Gedrosian than Northern Europeans. Geography does not help to find such thing, all logic says it must be the opposite.

    As I said, if the v4 will be based on this, there are several things to fix.
    Yes it's strange, but in some cases the difference is not that big, for example Germans have 7.8 caucasis + 4.4 gedrosian, similar to Spaniards 7.9 + 4.9

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    Anyways, it's still wrong. It would be more reasonable to find higher Southwest Asian and Northwest African between Iberians in comparison with Northern Europeans, but having much lower Caucasus + Gedrosian. That point agrees with the first K=10, showing clearly higher West Asian/Caucasian admixture in Northern Euros. Other runs as well showed that there's more Asian influence in Northern Europe than in Iberia, which is a known fact.

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    Look at the map of component, one can see that mediterranean is the most European component, while Northern-European in reality is more like a Northaest Euro or Balto-Slavic (peaks in Lithuanians-Finns)

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    It's really confusing. Basques seem to be the only Southern European population getting something more or less reasonable. As I pointed above, one can check Greeks or Southern Italians, and they look no way European.

    Obviously many things don't make any sense here.

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    And by the way, I see apreciable discrepancies between the K12a spreadsheet and the Calculator results. For example, my East African disappeared and the South Asian increased. Specially this one is quite high in me in comparison with other Iberians, it seems to compensate the lower Gedrosia and Caucasus. Well, no comments xd

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    Yes, I've noticed minor differences between the spreadsheet and my own calculations:) although the general picture is still the same

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yes I did, and I'm absolutely disappointed with such admixture proportions. Just to be quick:

    - The Caucasus and Gedrosia are both exagerated in all Southern Europe, and completely underestimated in the North. Just check the Greek average...they are about to be not European LOL.

    - Culmination: Dodecad v4 will be based on this. I hope this will get refined...if not, it's time to go.


    Here are mine, althought I desagree of course:

    56.84% Mediterranean
    25.48% North European
    6.97% Caucasus
    3.88% Southwest Asian
    2.41% Gedrosia
    2.14% Northwest African
    1.79% South Asian
    0.43% East African
    0.02% Southeast Asian
    0.02% West African
    0.01% Siberian
    0.00% Far Asian
    Here are my K12a results. The first time I've ever had any West African admixture, and it is appreciably high. Probably a remnant of some African component found throughout the Middle-East. This 'West' African is found at similar frequencies among the Bedouin (3.6%), Palestinian (2.7%), Sindhi (2.5%), Brahui in Balochistan (2.1%), Iranian (2.0%) and Syrian (2.0%) population. My opinion is that it is ancient out-of-Africa admixture still floating around in Southwest/South Asia. Another possibility may be it is not West African but due to a back migration from Southern Asian, and has been lumped together with West African due to its successful spread among West Africans, possibly carried by Indo-Arabo-Iranian admixtured individuals who traversed the Sahara and mixed with Central African populations many moons ago.

    33.59% North_European
    30.48% Mediterranean
    20.95% Caucasus
    6.14% Southwest_Asian
    5.13% Gedrosia
    1.94% West_African
    0.77% Northwest_African
    0.28% South_Asian
    0.27% East_African
    0.19% Far_Asian
    0.19% Southeast_Asian
    0.06% Siberian

  16. #16
    Regular Member Knovas's Avatar
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    Your West African would probably partly disappear in the spreadsheet Dorian, as for example my East African is absent there. By the way, you are very different form the Greek average, so I guess you are not fully Greek, ¿right?. Also, ¿what do you think about the population averages (specially Greeks and Southern Italians)? It looks very rare to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Here are my K12a results. The first time I've ever had any West African admixture, and it is appreciably high. Probably a remnant of some African component found throughout the Middle-East. This 'West' African is found at similar frequencies among the Bedouin (3.6%), Palestinian (2.7%), Sindhi (2.5%), Brahui in Balochistan (2.1%), Iranian (2.0%) and Syrian (2.0%) population. My opinion is that it is ancient out-of-Africa admixture still floating around in Southwest/South Asia. Another possibility may be it is not West African but due to a back migration from Southern Asian, and has been lumped together with West African due to its successful spread among West Africans, possibly carried by Indo-Arabo-Iranian admixtured individuals who traversed the Sahara and mixed with Central African populations many moons ago.

    33.59% North_European
    30.48% Mediterranean
    20.95% Caucasus
    6.14% Southwest_Asian
    5.13% Gedrosia
    1.94% West_African
    0.77% Northwest_African
    0.28% South_Asian
    0.27% East_African
    0.19% Far_Asian
    0.19% Southeast_Asian
    0.06% Siberian
    Are you full greek ? Doing a Oracle of your resuslts, the greeks are not even in top10, and by a large margin :

    [1,] "Romanians" "8.4332"
    [2,] "Bulgarian_D" "9.2787"
    [3,] "Bulgarians_Y" "9.926"
    [4,] "N_Italian_D" "14.3159"
    [5,] "Hungarians" "16.189"
    [6,] "O_Italian_D" "17.0714"
    [7,] "TSI25" "18.2355"
    [8,] "Tuscan" "18.3566"
    [9,] "North_Italian" "18.3934"
    [10,] "French" "19.8718"

  18. #18
    Regular Member Knovas's Avatar
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    If Dorian has substantial Aromanian ancestors the picture is surely very different from the main Greeks. I know a Vlach Aromanian girl (and have seen many photos of her family), and she has nothing to do in phisical appearence with the main Greeks, which is the same pattern I observed in the others. Yes, quite blond hair and light eyes.

    If he is ethnic Greek and I'm right in my Aromanian hypothesis origin, what the Dodecad Oracle shows makes sense as most Aromanians seem to be Balkanic descent, with substantial Northeast Eurtopean influece (most likely fit). That could be the reason why they often look much lighter than the average Greeks.

    Let's see xd

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Your West African would probably partly disappear in the spreadsheet Dorian, as for example my East African is absent there. By the way, you are very different form the Greek average, so I guess you are not fully Greek, ¿right?. Also, ¿what do you think about the population averages (specially Greeks and Southern Italians)? It looks very rare to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    If Dorian has substantial Aromanian ancestors the picture is surely very different from the main Greeks. I know a Vlach Aromanian girl (and have seen many photos of her family), and she has nothing to do in phisical appearence with the main Greeks, which is the same pattern I observed in the others. Yes, quite blond hair and light eyes.

    If he is ethnic Greek and I'm right in my Aromanian hypothesis origin, what the Dodecad Oracle shows makes sense as most Aromanians seem to be Balkanic descent, with substantial Northeast Eurtopean influece (most likely fit). That could be the reason why they often look much lighter than the average Greeks.

    Let's see xd
    My parents are both fully Greek. My mother's family originated from Sfakia on Crete and my father's family are from Milos. Depending where in Greece you sample, I should think that one will find varying amounts of North European and Caucasus but generally they amount to between 50-55% when added together. The Mediterranean component remains relatively constant at approximately 30% for Greeks.

    I believe that the Greek dodecad sample is not representative of all traditional Greek families. The same is probably true for Southern Italians. I'm not complaining though as I understand the challenges in mapping the regions admixture components. Not easy!

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    Very interesting Dorian, and surprising! You fit much better in the Balkans than in Greece, and according to the present data the most likely argument for me was what I posted. No need to say there's no Aromanian Vlach joining the projects, so their proportions are still unknown...they could even be more Northern European than expected.

    Now of course, new questions appear in regards for the main people inhabiting the near isles in Greece, but also it's evident that mainland Greeks aren't probably well represented with the present samples. Yes, not easy, too bad we'll have to wait a long time to know more about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Interesting :)

    Yes, the Caucasus component seems to be exaggerated even in my case :) I've never got such a high percentage before and my Mediterranean is practically gone...
    After doing some observations, I think this Caucasus now incorporates an apreciable amount of the previous Mediterranean admixture in the v3 run. That would explain why you get almost no Mediterranean now (increasing your Caucasus), and why I get more than 6% Caucasus being 0% West Asian before.

    The Sardinian average is quite ilustrative considering their high Caucasus. A well known population for the huge Mediterranean/Southern Euro percents. I personally see the fit clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Look at the map of component, one can see that mediterranean is the most European component, while Northern-European in reality is more like a Northaest Euro or Balto-Slavic (peaks in Lithuanians-Finns)
    This is probably right as attested by the Fst distances, and also would explain with the previous comment how Southern Europeans look, generally, much less European than their Northern neighbours in the spreadsheet.

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    As usual some people make false statements by taking some component names too literally. Before crying around some people should read Dienekes statements and I myself made a comment about it on Dodecad blog.

    Here the comment to read
    if you look at "fst" you will see that Gedrosia and Caucasus/North European are very similar (probably the same ancestor) I believe that "Gedrosia" represents a Caucasian Gene flow into South-Central Asia. I would generally not take "components" too "literally". The names tell you were this component reaches its highest but this doesnt mean that they actually "developed" there. Take Ukrainians_Y as example, on dodecad v3 they had more of the "West European" component than "East European".
    And here is what Dienekes writes about it.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12...ians-came.html

    The components are as always named after the Region where it is found at its highest but
    doesnt mean it actually originated there. BMAC is probably a much better place of origin.

    What I think and am sure about. Gedrosia is an Aryan(Iranian) component, composed of North European (25%)-West Asian(60%) and the ANI (15%). Gedrosia in Northwest and Central Europe can quite well be explained with Alanic or similar influence imo.

    And the "Mediterranean" of K12a is not the same as "Mediterranean" of v3.

    K12a "Mediterranean is actually South(west) European.

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    Obviously it is not the same, and also the North European I'm sure it is less North European than ever. And no, it can't be only Southwest European, just go and check the British-Irish averages and you'll probably see this one is a strange mix of Western allele frequencies. What it comes out very clear is that it focusses strongly in Europe, a bit more in Southern Europe (¡and not always!) nothing else.

    It's not crying, just noticing several things make little coherence in comparison with numerous previous runs, which of course worth to mention as clear fact. Somebody noted above for example that it's not normal that in Northern Europe we find often more Gedrosia than Caucasus, also in Iberia where de West Asian/Caucasus was very low now it is substantially increased, Sardinians who only showed a maximum of 2% in the same admixture (Eurasia7) now show 15%...etc. These are not false statements, I can assure you, is what the results reflect and the discrepancy is enough huge to say it. No need to say, we shouldn't be interpreting the components, they should come as much clear as possible to avoid problems like this. At least, that's what I think.

    However, I appreciate your point of view, several things you said make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As usual some people make false statements by taking some component names too literally. Before crying around some people should read Dienekes statements and I myself made a comment about it on Dodecad blog.

    Here the comment to read


    And here is what Dienekes writes about it.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12...ians-came.html

    The components are as always named after the Region where it is found at its highest but
    doesnt mean it actually originated there. BMAC is probably a much better place of origin.

    What I think and am sure about. Gedrosia is an Aryan(Iranian) component, composed of North European (25%)-West Asian(60%) and the ANI (15%). Gedrosia in Northwest and Central Europe can quite well be explained with Alanic or similar influence imo.

    And the "Mediterranean" of K12a is not the same as "Mediterranean" of v3.

    K12a "Mediterranean is actually South(west) European.
    About the mediterranean component, this is what I said already, it's not really mediterranean, it's southwestern euro, it is actually higher in Germanic people than in Greeks or Sicilians, so the mediterranean label is completely wrong.

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    It's not only Southwest, just a general European cluster with substantial Western affinities. The figure for Sardinians it's too high to be only Southwest, and what the British, Irish, and some Central European get, does not make sense if it's pure Southwestern. The Euro7 Calculator show Sardinians are far from being the most Southwestern, so specially their percent does not match the estimation.

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