Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

I would like to add, on this occasion, that I've read many historical articles in polish in relation with deciphering Vistula Venedi. So far the case is still open, and there is a vital lack of records and data, archaeological and written in general, to conclusively link Venedi with any language or culture. Various authors link Venedi with Slavic, Baltic, East Germanic, Celtic, Dacian or whatever with equally week arguments. On top of it Venedi of 1000BC, might have been of different culture and language than Venedi of 400AD, even the location could have shifted a lot. As we know, cultures and languages can change on same population over time. Sometimes what's left is just the name and most autosomal DNA. :)

i have to agree, the age clearly shows a baltic people or at a extreme -finnic

The latest from Polish historians is that they ( venedi) occupied the left side of the vistula ( danzig side - east pommeria ) and not the right side because the original water way went to the vistual lagoon ( right side ) and not the vistula gulf.
The entrance to the lagoon once it silted up forced the river to find another path - which became its current path
 
lebrok

I must ask you to stop printing garbage like this (as moderator). You already posted it few times without shred of proof. We all read it and all said that we didn't agree with it and stopped shortly off calling it stupidity. Posting it again and again won't make it true nor will convince us otherwise. Please stop, and try using official nomenclature not to confuse people, if you didn't mean it.

Or what? You are going to close this thread as well? Or you are going to ban me from the forum? You say that you are a citizen of the world.
So i first have to ask you did you grow up in a democratic country or a totalitarian one? I am asking this because you don't seem to know what democracy means. One of the basic principles of democracy is respecting minority opinions and allowing people with these opinions to express them. Otherwise you have totalitarianism. Considering this is EU forum, and EU is supposed to be based on democracy, then i have a right to express my opinion without it being censored or suppressed. You might not agree with it but if you are a democratic person you have to respect it. If you want to prove that my opinion is wrong, you need to use arguments, and not insults. I don't agree with your opinion, but i am not calling you stupid. I am trying to elaborate and present proofs that would support my argument, you can do the same.
Second i have to ask you if you know what forum means? Forum is place where ideas are brought out into the open, where people think aloud. The ideas that are expressed are not necessarily the same and are often contradictory. But this is why forum exists, to discuss different ideas. Forum is not a church, where everyone is forced to listen and agree with one idea. Considering that you can't stand that someone could have s different ideas, maybe you should be on in a church and not here. Science is not a religion. Advancement of any science is based on new ideas. I came here to discus my ideas. They are ideas, not laws. But it seems you don't want to discus things. It seems that you want to preach.
As a moderator you are supposed to insure that discussion on this forum is civilized, democratic and that it does not offend anyone. Your job is not to censor and suppress ideas that you don't like. You closed the first thread where i expressed the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same after calling my ideas a farce. Now you are calling my ideas stupid and are again threatening that if i don't stop saying that Celts and Slavs are one and the same you will take measures against me. So you are insulting me and my ideas and i can live with that. It just shows the level of your argument. But it seems that you can't stand the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same. Why? Are you being offended or insulted by the mere possibility that Celts and Slavs are one and the same? If you are offended or insulted by the mere possibility that Celts and Slavs are one and the same then that just means that you are a racist.

I do give everyone a benefit of the doubt. So please prove to me and everyone else on this forum that you are democratic knowledge seeking non racist person.
 
dublin,
you are overreacting.....
le brok did not forbid you to state your ideas... his statement was comment on the following lines of yours,,,

there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.
.

this is not just wishful thinking.... this is worse... it is propaganda.... its not problem that someone writes his ideas and wishful thinking... problem is to claim things that are clearly not true.... as far as i know there is no historical nor genetic data that support your claims....

unless you count wishful thinking of some modern so called historians.... historical sources are only ancient history records, not modern interpretations.....interpretations come from biased minds....... so now its up to you to reference numerous history sources that show that Slavs lived all over Europe...

also first learn something about genetics before daring to make claims like "genetic data is taking any doubt out of it".... as far as I know there is almost no I2a-Din and no R1a-M458 in west Europe hence it is in fact almost sure that no Slavic people lived in west Europe, except in east Germany ....

you can try to call R1a pre-Slavic people, but R1a are also large or small part of Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, Scandinavians, probably Etruscans, ancient Macedonians.... it is just impossible to equate R1a and Slavic.... you can instead suggest that it was haplogroup of proto-indo-european people.... but even that cannot be proven, as R1a people may have received PIE language from someone else..... which btw. is what I expect as I believe that Etruscans and Pelasgians were also R1a people and their languages are known not to have been PIE.... so original PIE people could have been someone else....
 
how yes no

this is not just wishful thinking.... this is worse... it is propaganda....

can you explain what this means please? What are you accusing me of? Trying to change your mind? Trying to Influence your thinking? Trying to brainwash you? Or just saying things that you don't agree with?

its not problem that someone writes his ideas and wishful thinking...

what is wishful thinking? every thinking is wishful thinking, otherwise it is just dumb repetition of someone else's thinking. thinking is always wishful as the person that thinks is wishing to prove through thinking some original idea. thinking can prove or disprove this original idea. This is the purpose of thinking.


problem is to claim things that are clearly not true....


What do you mean by not true? Do you mean "not stated as true by someone whose book you read"? The things that i am discussing are far from being certain, and the historical interpretation of those things have already changed many times and are currently changing again. So my interpretation is just another possible one and i am trying to put forward arguments to support my interpretation. do you want me to remind you that in slavic - celtic thread you claimed the right to do just that? but now you are denying the same right to me? I mean we don't know who Celts were and if they even existed? we knoow that there were people who were called Keltoi but that is about it.


as far as i know there is no historical nor genetic data that support your claims....

AS far as you know. I am not claiming that i know more than you, just that i might know some things that might shed new light on the subject.


so now its up to you to reference numerous history sources that show that Slavs lived all over Europe...

i thought that this is what i have been doing. i have presented links to documents that prove that slavic languages are older than latin and greek and so cold celtic languages. i have also presented documents that prove that there is slavic cultural continuity in North Germany from bronze age to today. i have presented documents that prove that etruscans are identical to venets which are identical to slovenes. i am about to document that triglav worship was the Slavic wide and that it survived the longest in the Balkans (second part of 20th century) and that also it is the most direct link between European and Arian religion. I will also give more cultural parallels between Slavs and Celts.


also first learn something about genetics before daring to make claims like "genetic data is taking any doubt out of it".... as far as I know there is almost no I2a-Din and no R1a-M458 in west Europe hence it is in fact almost sure that no Slavic people lived in west Europe, except in east Germany ....

i believe that i posted the map from this site that shows that r1a1 does exist in western and northern europe. Could you please explain this claim to me.


it is just impossible to equate R1a and Slavic....

can you explain why? Because it is actually impossible or because it is unacceptable because it would force us to rewrite our history books?

you can instead suggest that it was haplogroup of proto-indo-european people....

Obviously this would be acceptable because it does not use the dirty S word.


but even that cannot be proven, as R1a people may have received PIE language from someone else.....which btw. is what I expect as I believe that Etruscans and Pelasgians were also R1a people and their languages are known not to have been PIE.... so original PIE people could have been someone else....

just go back to my previous post, look at the maps, genetic and language distribution. this is just statistically not possible. what is possible is that both R1a and l2a are the genetic groups of the people speaking the same language where l2a versions (Balkan slavic languages) are older, the original PIE languages. Please read documents that i have posted.

And can we once and for all stop talking about the right to speculate. Speculation is mother of science.
 
how yes no
can you explain what this means please? What are you accusing me of? Trying to change your mind? Trying to Influence your thinking? Trying to brainwash you? Or just saying things that you don't agree with?

i am accusing you for bluntly stating as absolute truths things that are in contradiction with reality......
that's what propaganda is...

there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.




what is wishful thinking? every thinking is wishful thinking, otherwise it is just dumb repetition of someone else's thinking. thinking is always wishful as the person that thinks is wishing to prove through thinking some original idea. thinking can prove or disprove this original idea. This is the purpose of thinking.

wishful thinking = biased thinking....
if you want to know the truth you need not be for or against...you need to search for truth...
otherwise you end up constructing theories in which you see what you want to see and not what is reality...




What do you mean by not true? Do you mean "not stated as true by someone whose book you read"? The things that i am discussing are far from being certain, and the historical interpretation of those things have already changed many times and are currently changing again. So my interpretation is just another possible one and i am trying to put forward arguments to support my interpretation. do you want me to remind you that in slavic - celtic thread you claimed the right to do just that? but now you are denying the same right to me? I mean we don't know who Celts were and if they even existed? we knoow that there were people who were called Keltoi but that is about it.
what you do and what I do is quite different...what I do is find some links that I find interesting to explore.... i do not hide my attitudes behind doubtful sources.... ... in fact with your unfounded delusions about vikings = Slavs you did manage to ruin interesting topic about celtic-serbian parallels...


read your statement - it is just not truth...le brok was right to be rough with it....

there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.


better think about who are your historical sources..... Herodotous, Strabo, Pompomious Mela...? or some contemporary lawyer or engineer who in free time sends his writings to a wishful thinking Slovenian conference about Veneti?

if you want to claim numerous sources than dig into ancient sources... learn Greek , latin....read....
but do not call modern wishful thinking (mis)interpreters of history - historical sources
they may provide you with useful indications, but its just not right to call them historical sources.... and to consider their educated or non educated guess proof for anything...



AS far as you know. I am not claiming that i know more than you, just that i might know some things that might shed new light on the subject.
be careful what you claim...and how...
one thing is to state your own ideas on forum...
another is to claim bluntly how your ideas are clearly supported by genetics and history sources




i believe that i posted the map from this site that shows that r1a1 does exist in western and northern europe. Could you please explain this claim to me.
can you explain why?

are Indians = Slavs?
are Pakistani = Slavs?
are iranians?
R1a1 is not marker of Slavic people, as it is very old and found all over the Euroasia... it predates not only Slavic language but also estimates of how proto-indo-european languages are old......

there is however its subclade R1a-M458 (R1a1a7) that exist only in Europe and can be used as marker of Slavic presence as it is present in all Slavic populations (most strongly in west Slavs)...

R1a1a7 displays high diversity among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples (coalescent time ~11 KYA) KYA = kilo (1000) years ago
most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)

in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA.

(High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia -
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera)


R1a1a7 is today slavic marker.... its age is estimated to 14000 years for Serbia....it is spread in all slavic countries... but not much of it in west europe... only few hotspots..
west Europe has mostly R1a1a*(xM458) (x means "without)

pockets of M458 are found in Germany, south Sweden, southeast Denmark and west Netherlands... this is very far from "everywhere in Europe"

N ______R1a1a total___R1a1a*(xM458)___R1a1a7*____Reference
Western Europe
Norway 74 23.0 23.0 0 This study
Sweden South (Malmö) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
Denmark East 17 5.9 5.9 0 This study
Denmark Island (East) 10 10.0 10.0 0 This study
Denmark North 43 11.6 11.6 0 This study
Denmark West 19 15.8 15.8 0 This study
Denmark Southeast 23 13.0 8.7 4.3 This study
Netherlands West 47 4.3 0 4.3 This study
Netherlands North 22 9.1 9.1 0 This study
Netherlands Southeast 19 5.3 5.3 0 This study
Ireland East 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Ireland North 21 9.5 9.5 0 This study
Ireland South 24 0 0 0 This study
Ireland Southwest 22 0 0 0 This study
Ireland West 16 0 0 0 This study
England Central 25 0 0 0 This study
England North 29 3.4 3.4 0 This study
England Southeast 25 0 0 0 This study
England Southwest 25 0 0 0 This study
France East 25 4.0 4.0 0 This study
France 16 0 0 0 This study
France West 14 0 0 0 This study
France, HGDP-CEPH 12 0 0 0 This study
Spain, Andalusia 29 0 0 0 15
Germany 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Germany West 100 5.0 5.0 0 This study
Germany East 47 29.8 19.1 10.6 This study
Germany South 91 11.0 4.4 6.6 This study
Germany Central 19 15.8 5.3 10.5 This study
Germany North 65 15.4 12.3 3.1 This study
Austria 19 26.3 21.1 5.3 This study
Switzerland Northeast 32 6.3 6.3 0.0 This study
Switzerland Northwest 27 3.7 3.7 0.0 This study
Switzerland South 16 0 0 0 This study
Switzerland 16 0 0 0 This study
Italy South (2 locations) 163 1.8 1.8 0 This study
Italy North 124 6.5 6.5 0 This study
Italy Northeast 64 7.8 7.8 0 Updated from 8

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf


what it tells us is that proto-Slavs lived in east europe, but not in west Europe.... for R1a found there one should search causes either in recolonization from the refugium in the Ukraine (early post-LGM, ~20–12 KYA) or Kurgan culture expansion ...

so contrary to your strong words this data indicates that there were no Slavs "everywhere" in Europe
but it shows continuity of their existence in east Europe and also indicates proto-Slavic origin in Serbia....



And can we once and for all stop talking about the right to speculate. Speculation is mother of science.
of course its good to speculate... its not good to make claims that clearly do not hold....
 
lebrok



Or you are going to ban me from the forum?
Yes




So i first have to ask you did you grow up in a democratic country or a totalitarian one? I am asking this because you don't seem to know what democracy means. One of the basic principles of democracy is respecting minority opinions and allowing people with these opinions to express them. Otherwise you have totalitarianism. Considering this is EU forum, and EU is supposed to be based on democracy, then i have a right to express my opinion without it being censored or suppressed. You might not agree with it but if you are a democratic person you have to respect it.
What you don't get is that this is a privet website, and not a democratic parliament. The owner of this website, Maciamo, sets the rules and polices. Just because he allows free exchange of thoughts and discussions, doesn't mean everything is tolerated.
Use your freedoms of free society and choose not to post here, if you don't like how Eupedia is run. And don't forget that this is a privet website.




If you want to prove that my opinion is wrong, you need to use arguments, and not insults. I don't agree with your opinion, but i am not calling you stupid. I am trying to elaborate and present proofs that would support my argument, you can do the same.
Second i have to ask you if you know what forum means? Forum is place where ideas are brought out into the open, where people think aloud.
You posted your ideas free on this forum. Nobody liked them. You've been asked not to repeat them. If you don't agree with this decision, you are free to take your toys and go play somewhere else, with people who appreciate your ideas and your logic.




As a moderator you are supposed to insure that discussion on this forum is civilized, democratic ...
civilized - yes
democratic - no

Your job is not to censor and suppress ideas that you don't like.
Yes it does, though I love to exercise tolerance and open mind, as much as possible.




You closed the first thread where i expressed the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same after calling my ideas a farce.
I wish you took some clues from my actions, and didn't test my patience again.



Now you are calling my ideas stupid and are again threatening that if i don't stop saying that Celts and Slavs are one and the same you will take measures against me. So you are insulting me and my ideas and i can live with that.
...and I lost my patience. Honestly, I didn't want to do that, and I even went against my nature.

It just shows the level of your argument. But it seems that you can't stand the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same.
I also can't stand the idea of UFO and green people visiting earth, and Big Foot still hiding in N.American forests. I would also ban whoever would keep posting about them on Eupedia.




If you are offended or insulted by the mere possibility that Celts and Slavs are one and the same then that just means that you are a racist.

I do give everyone a benefit of the doubt. So please prove to me and everyone else on this forum that you are democratic knowledge seeking non racist person.
I don't need to prove anything to you. I hope you learned that this is not a democratic forum, and don't try again calling any member of Eupedia a racist.

Now you know how it works here. Take it or leave it.
I also don't want to discuss my positions included in this post, so please don't drug this any longer and don't reply to it.
 
but before that, i thought you might want to see this:

Homer (9th century B. C.) records in Iliad[1] the Veneti in Paphlagonia as Enetoi (the Greek did not know the letter v).
Herodotus, historian (5th century B. C.), writes about Illyrian Veneti, about Veneti living around the lower stream of the Danube, and finally about Veneti inhabiting the Northern Adriatic territory.[2]
Polibus (2th century B. C.) added to the description of events during the years 219 to 146 B. C., following: »The land to the Adriatic coast was mastered by another, very old folk, named Veneti ... They speak a different language as the Celts, but what their habbits and their clothing is concearned, they differ from them only slightly /.../ Veneti and Gonomani were persuaded by Roman representatives, to join the Romans«.[3]
Demetrius of Scepsis, grammarian, archeologist (2nd century B. C.), mentions the capital of the Veneti (Enea) in Troas (Asia Minor).[4]
Strabo, historian, geographer (1st century B. C.), designates the (V)eneti in Paphlagonia as the major tribe moving towards Thrace (nowadays territory of Bulgaria) after the fall of Troy (Asia Minor).[5]
Julius Caesar, historian (1st century B. C.), reports about the Veneti living in Gaul (Brittany).[6]
Titus Livy, historian (1st century B. C.), describes how Veneti came up to the coasts of the (northern) Adriatic, also mentioning the river "Timava", which flows through the duskiness of the Škocjan caves (Slovene Ti(e)ma means the darkness).[7]
Pliny the Elder (1st century B. C.) talks about an extensive land, named Eningia, where Sarmatians, Venedi, etc. lived. He also mentions theVenetulani in central Italy.[8]
Tacitus, historian (1st century C. E.), places Veneti on the border of Suebia together with Peucinians, Sarmatians and Fenns.[9]
Ptolemy, geographer (2nd century), mentions exceedingly large nations - the (O)venedi on the whole coastal region of the Venetic gulf (The Baltic sea).[10]
Emperor Julian (4th century) presents evidence of Veneti, who settled in the proximity of Aquilea (Italy).[11]
Jordanes, historian (6th century), notes a numerous nation of Veneti, populating the area between north of Dacia (now Romania) and up to the Visla delta (the Baltic sea). [12]
In Vita s. Columbani[13] (7th century) (the Alpine) Veneti, who call themselves Slavs, are recorded (»termini Venetorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur«).

In the Fredegarius Chronicle (7th century) we can read about the Slavs designated as Vinedi.[14]
Adam of Bremen, chronicler (11th century), mentions an extensive land Sclavania, settled by Winulians, who used to be called Vandals. The land could have been ten times bigger then Sachsen, especially if we include Bohemians (Czechs) and Polians, since they are not distinguishable from each other, nor by their appearance, or by their language.[15]
In Denmark (from latest 12th century and until the year 1972) the title "King of the Vends" (Latin Vandals) was used for enthroning Danish kings.
Helmold, historian (12th century), records a vast Slavic country, where the ancient Vandals are now named Wends or Winulians.[16]
Wincenty Kadłubek / Vincent of Cracow, historian (12th century), affirms that Poles used to be called Vandals.[17]
Heimskringla, the Chronicle of Norwegian kings(12th century) mentions, that the Black Sea »divides three parts of the earth, from which is the eastern part called Asia, whereas the western part is by some called Europe, and by others Enea.«[18]
Miersuae Chronicon (13th century) equates Vandals with Slavs.[19]
Albert Crantz, historian (15th century), reports about Wandals or Wends, and says that they are Slavs, living as a single nation from Poland to Dalmatia. According to him, the mighty acts in France, Spain and Africa are ascribed to the Wends.[20]
Marcin Bielski (16th century) says that Wandals was once the name for Slavs.[21]
The Pomeranian chronicler Thomas Kantzow (1505-1542) writes that the »Slau(v)s and Wandals are the same thing / .../ just like the Germans are called differently - Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«: Original text:»Dan Slaui und Wandali ist ein Dinck / .../ gleich wie die Teutzschen werden oft on Unterschied geheissen Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«[22]
Christophorum Entzelt von Saluelt (16. century) records ancient populousness of the lands east from the Elbe (Laba) river with Wends. At the same time he equates Veneti and Sclavenes.[23]
Sebastian Münster, cartographer (16th century), mentions a once mighty nation on the East sea (Ostsee) named Vandals or Wends. He also reports on Wandals who settled regions in eastern Germany, where inhabitants are called Sclavs or Wends. Original text: »Mecklenburg-Pommern-Preussen: jtem Brandenburg und was dem Polenland zugelegen, alles Wandali geheißen und ihre Einwohner haben auch Sclaven oder Wendengeheißen.«[24]
Antol Vramec, chronicler (16th century), writes in his chronicle for the year 928 the following: The Heneti, who name themselves Sloveni, were at that time knocked down in Germany.[25]
Adam Bohorič, linguist (16th century), links Heneti, Vene(d)ti, Vinds, Vandals and Slavs together as a single nation.[26]
Mavro Orbin (16th century) numbers Veneti, Vends, Vandals, Illyrians, Sarmatians ... among Slavs.[27]
The Chronicle of Brandenburg (16. century) emphasizes the mighty predecessors of Wends, the Vandals, who sacked Rome and Carthage, and mentions their king Genserich as the king of Vandals.[28]
Johann Weichard Baron von Valvasor, historian, geographer (1689),wrote: »Wends and Sclavenes are one folk, Wandals and Wends one and the same nation.« (»Wenden und Sclaven seynd ein Volk, Wandalen und Wenden einerley Nation.[29]
V. N. Tatiščev, ethnographer (17th -18th century), classifies the Heneti as Slavs, as well as the Vandalic or Vendenic state as the first known Slavic state.[30]
A. L. Schlözer, historian (18th century), defended his thesis about Slavs originating from Illyrians and the Veneti.[31]
Vasilij Trediakovski (18th century) classifies Dalmatians, Serbians, Bulgarians ... among Vandals.[32]
Davorin Trstenjak (19th century) wrote about the ancient Adriatic Veneti, who belonged to a Vindish-Slavic family. He accented their affinity with the Aremoric (Brittany) and Baltic Veneti.[33]
In Helmolts Weltgeschichte (end of the 19th century) it is indicated, that the Veneti, Wends and Winds were actually ancestors of Slovenes, and that they used to settle the old roman provinces Vindelitia, Raetia, Noricum, Pannonia.[34]

[1] Iliad, 851.
[2] Herodotus, History vol. 7 / G B Pellegrini, A L Prosdocimi, La lingua venetica, Padova 1967, V, 9.
[3] Polibios, Obča zgodovina, Državna založba Slovenije, Ljubljana 1964, str. 88; p. 92.
[4] On the Martialling of the Trojan Forces.
[5] Strabon, Geografija.
[6] De Bello Gallico.
[7] Titus Livius, History of Rome, Loeb Classic Library, William Heinemann, London, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass., 1933 / Titi Livi, Ab Vrbe condita, liber I, http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/liv.html.
[8] Historia naturalis, Liber IV: 96-97.
[9] Cornelius Tacitus, De origine et situ Germaorum liber (Germania), 64.
[10] Ptolemej, De Geographia, III 5. 21.
[11] The Works of Emperor Julian, Engl. transl. Wilmer Cave Wright, I. vol., Loeb Classical Library, William Heinemann , Cambridge, Mass., Harvard University Press, 1954, The Heroic Deeds of Constantius, pp. 190- 193.
[12] Iordanes, De origine actibusce Getarum (Getica), Roma 1986, str 43 (XXIII poglavje); S Rutar, Kako važnost ima "Jordanis" za slovensko zgodovinopisje, Letopis Matice slovenske, Ljubljana 1880, p. 86.
[13] J. Bobbiensis, Vitae s. Columbani.
[14] Fredegar Scholasticus, Historia Francorum, I, 48.
[15] Adamus Bremensis, Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum (et Scholast), 11. century, II, 18.
[16] Helmoldi presbyteri Bozoviensis, Chronica Sclavorum et Venedorum, 1171, p. 2, 14.
[17] W. Kadłubek, Mistrza Wincentego Kronika Polska, Warszawa 1974.
[18] Heimskringla or The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway, The Ynglinga Saga, or The Story of the Yngling Family from Odin to Halfdan the Black, Snorri Sturluson c. 1179 - 1241, Online Medieval and Classical Library Release #15b, http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/.
[19] Miersuae Chronicon, Monumenta Poloniae Historica II, 1872.
[20] Albertus Crantzius, Vandalia, lat. Hamburg 1519.
[21] M Bielski, Kronika Polska.
[22] Thomas Kantzow, Chronik von Pommern in Niederdeutscher Mundart (orig. 1535), Dr. Martin Sändig oHG., 1973; ISBN 3-500-28260-1.
[23] Entzelt von Salfeld, Chronicon der Alten Mark, Magdeburg 1579.
[24] S. Münster, Cosmographiae Universalis, Basileae 1572.
[25] A. Vramec, Kronika, Ljubljana 1578.
[26] A. Bohorič, Zimske urice / Arcticae horulae, Vitenberg, 1584.
[27] M. Orbini, Il Regno degli Slavi /Kraljestvo Slovanov, naslov "Historiografska knjiga o izvoru imena Slave in o razširitvi slovanskega naroda in njegovih carjev ter vladarjev z mnogimi imeni in z mnogimi carstvi, kraljestvi in provincami", 1722.
[28] Angelus, Chronik der Mark Brandenburg, 1598.
[29] J. V. Valvasor, Slava Vojvodine Kranjske / Die Ehre des Herzogthums Crain, Nürnberg 1689.
[30] V. N. Tatiščev, Slovani in Rusija, str. 21 / Собрание сочинений. Т.1. История Российская. М. 1994, частъ 1. См. также фрагментъі в сборнике "Славяне и Русъ" p. 16-23.
[31] Х. А Шлецер, О происхождении словен вообще и в особенности словен российских, М. 1810.
[32] B. Тредиаковский, РИ, I-XVI - Римская история ... сочиненная г. Ролленем ... а с Французского переведенная тщанием и трудами В. Тредиаковского ... Т. I - XVI. СПб., 1761-1767.
[33] D. Trstenjak, Raziskavanja na polji staroslovanske zgodovine, Letopis matice slovenske, Ljubljana.
[34] H F Helmolt, Weltgeschichte, fünfter Band, Bibliographisches Institut, Leipzig und Wien 1900 (1899-1907), pp. 269, 270 (english: London 1902, ruskij: Petrograd); www.hervardi.com/helmolt.php.
 
and this

The Julian Alps were sometimes called the Venetic Alps.
(Ammian Marcelino: "alpium juliarum, quas venetas appellabant antiquitas".)
The neighboring Dolomites have been named
Venetic mountains by the Roman soldiers.
The same name was aplied to the Carpathian mountains.
Centuries ago the hills in present-day eastern Germany were known as the Venetic Hills. Hohe Tauern, a mountain chain in Austria used to be called the Venetic Mountain Chain (Montes Veneti, Windische Berge), its western part is still called the Venediger Gruppe, with its highest peak:Grossvenediger.
The region Veneto and the city of Venezia (Venice)
are directly and indirectly connected to the Veneti.
Vindobona was the ancient Roman name for Vienna (The Czech name for Vienna is Viden)

Wen(e)denstock, Wendenwasser, Wendenalm, Wendengletscher etc. are names referring to Vends in Switzerland. The present-day region ofWindisch, which served as a Roman military base, was known as Vindonissa.
The upper part of Lake Constance (Bodensee) bordering Austria, Germany and Switzerland, was once called the Venetic Lake (Lacus Venetus). It was mentioned by Pomponius Mela.
(Pomponius Mela, De Corographia III, 24- 44 around 44 B. C.)
German lands - Sachsen, Bavaria, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg (Pomerania) are mentioned as Vendic lands (W(i)endland, lat. Vindelicia). In Latin sources old Hanseatic Cities (for example Lübeck) are referred to as: "urbs sclavica" (Slavic Cities), and on hanseatic maps as "urbs vandalica" (Vendic Cities).
Until the 15th Century maps referred to the territory between the Elbe and the Weichsel Rivers (Sclavania) asVandalia orWendland (the map ofClaudius Clavus, Firenze 1467 ).
Not so long ago, Poland's northern part (coastal Pomerania) was called Vandalia, whereas Vindland was fow the Scandinavians used to designate the proximal Baltic Slavic territory. (Saga of Olaf Trygveson, the first Norse king).

The Baltic Sea was once called the Venetic Sea (Venedos kolpos, Wendile mare), but we also know of the Venetic gulf on the northern Adriatic. Russia is called Venäjä in Finnish and Venemaa in Estonian. Additionally, the words for Russia and/or Russian language appear in Estonian asvenäläinen and venelane and Old Prussian as vena (from wenidiz or wenediz).
In Brittany (the north-western peninsula of France) we find the Venetic Gulf and the Island of Vindilis. In antiquity according to Julius Caesar (De Bello Gallico) this land was dominated by the Veneti. It used to be a commercial connection to the British Venedotia (Gwynedd).
Andalucía of Spain is most likely named after the Vandals or Veneti. On the map by Anville, from 1761, we see the older designation Vandalitia. The (mountainous) Granada was known as Agarnata. The elements: Kar, Kor, Gor, Gar, are the usual way of indicating mountains or mountain groups in Central Europe.
A part of Slovenian Country between the rivers Mura and Raba was called Vendség (Vendic Country) by the Hungarians, whereas the Slavic speakers who inhabited the territory were called Vends (lat. Vandals).
There are thousands of other place names across the face of Europe like Veneto, Wenden, Winden ..., which help us to connect the dots and understand the continuum of the Venetic identity.













 
or this

Excerpts from the book The Making of the Slavs [1], written by prof. dr. Florin Curta, for which he received Herbert Baxter Adams Prize of the American Historical Association for the year 2002. This award is offered for a distinguished first book by a young scholar in the field of European history.
Florin Curta is an Associate Professor of Medieval History and Archaeology at the University of Florida. He studied History-Philosophy at the University of Bucharest, Medieval Studies at Cornell University (Ithaca) and received his Ph. D. in History at Western Michigan University (Kalamazoo). He also worked as an archaeologist performing field surveys and excavations with the Institute of Archaeology "Vasile Pârvan" (Bucharest). Prof. Curta wrote numerous articles and several books focused on southeastern Europe (more information is available his website:http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta; 5. 2. 2008). His achievements in both history and archaeology, presented in his comprehensive book, offer a new methodological approach to southeastern Europe in the Early Middle Age. As an excellent basis for further research, this book merits our sincere affirmation.


Formation of Sclavenic ethnicity

The book represents a new approach towards the origin of the Slavs. Curta\'s conception is that »early medieval ethnicity was embedded in sociopolitical relations just as modern ethnicity is. Ethnicity was socially and culturally constructed, a form of social mobilization used in order to reach certain political goals.« (p. 34)

One could agree that the problem of Sclavenic (I use this medieval term intentionally) ethnicity was a result of a unique linguistic ethnogenesis (taking their wide expansion into consideration). On the contrary, many other tribes were either political (ethnos) or military (folk, fulca, pulkas) groups, from time to time resulting in major ethnic communities or settlements. Therefore in past centuries the term »Slavs« was created, and non-critically applied to some populations and regions. However, avoiding this kind of misunderstanding, Curta often uses the term Sclavenes, a label frequently employed in the early Medieval.

As Curta describes, he finds an original solution to solve the problem of Sclavenic pre-sixth century presence: »Instead of a great flood of Slavs coming out of the Pripet marshes, I envisage a form of group identity which could arguably be called ethnicity and emerged in response to Justinian\'s implementation of a building project on the Danube frontier and in the Balkans. The Slavs, in other words, did not come from the north, but became Slavs only in contact with the Roman frontier.« (p. 3)

To simplify, the circumstances were a crucial factor in forming the Sclavenic ethnic community. Nevertheless Curta refuses to write or even think about Slavic history before the sixth century: »Though in agreement with those who maintain that the history of the Slavs began in the sixth century, I argue that the Slavs were an invention of the sixth century. Inventing, however, presupposed both imagining or labeling by outsiders and self-identification.« (p. 335)

In other words predecessors of Sclavenes were present in the Balkans already before the 6th century, though not yet formed as an ethnically compact community. Can we therefore assume that proto-Slavic languages were spoken by larger communities in this territory (southeastern Europe) long before the 6th century? This seems to be a logical conclusion. Otherwise we could hardly believe that Curta would be able to state that »Common Slavic itself may have been used as a lingua franca within and outside Avar qaganate. /.../ we may presume that duke Raduald learned how to speak Slavic in Friuli. His Slavic neighbors in the north apparently spoke the same language as the Dalmatian Slavs.« (p. 345)




Sclavenic migrations?

For our purposes it is Sclavenic (Venetic) ethnogenesis which is most interesting. Prof. Curta speaks directly to this: »Our present day knowledge of the origin of the Slavs /is/ to a large extent, a legacy of the 19th century. A scholarly endeavor inextricably linked with forging national identities /.../« (p. 6)

He also challenges the reader »to move away from the migrationist model which has dominated the discipline of Slavic archaeology ever since its inception.« (p. 307). The combination of both the historical and archaeological approach could be seen as one that gives the author more freedom to revise the firmly grounded model of the early medieval Slavic mass migration.

According to Curta, among Sclavenes there was no »obscure progression« involving a more or less permanent change of residence in the 7th century. Regretfully, the question of when the Sclavenic ancestors first inhabited these regions has yet to be answered. We can only assume that Protoslavs in the Balkans were a Pre-roman phenomenon. Selected excerpts confirm our conclusion: »I began this chapter with the statement that the nature of the Slavic settlement remains obscure to many modern historians. Several conclusions follow from the preceding discussion, but the most important is that, whether or not followed by actual settlement, there is no "infiltration" and obscure progression. The evidence of written sources is quite explicit about this. /.../ The problem with applying this concept of migration to the sixth- and seventh-century Slavs is that there is no pattern of an unique, continuous, and sudden invasion. Moreover, until the siege of Thessalonica during Heraclius\' early power, there is no evidence at all of outward migration in the sense of a permanent change of residence. /.../ What John /of Ephesus/ had in mind were warriors, not migrant farmers.« (p. 113)

Not only in the north, also Sclavenes in the south (to the coast of the Aegean Sea) did not migrate in the 6th century.




Archaeological evidence

According to Curta, there is also archaeological evidence to move away from the »migrationist model«: »More important, assemblages of the Lower Danube area, where, according to the migrationist model, the Slavs migrated from the Pripet marshes, long antedate the earliest evidence available from assemblages in the alleged Urheimat.« (p. 337)

It would be interesting to know which finds in the Lower Danube area were taken into consideration here. Not only new evidence - also new interpretations seem to overthrow the idea of mass migrations: »"Cultures", as one archeologist noted, "do not migrate. It is often only a very narrowly defined, goal-oriented subgroup that migrates. "To speak of the Prague culture as the culture of the migrating Slavs is, therefore, a nonsense.« (p. 307)

Regretfully even modern archaeological research in Slovenia is based on such dubious assumptions, illustrated in a paper by Prof. Mitja Guštin, Ph.D.: »Remains of an extensive early-medieval settlement are among most important discoveries of archaeological research at Nova tabla close to Murska Sobota. These remains prove Slavic settling from the 6th to the 9th Century.« [2] The key argument springs from the assumption that the Prague culture is the one proving migrations, an idea labeled by Curta as »a nonsense«. He moreover points to other »ethnicities« as the ones responsible for the southern branch of the Prague culture: »Such pots were hastily classified as Slavic, Prague-type pottery, in an attempt to provide an archaeological illustration to Procopius’ story of Hildigis and his retinue of Sclavene warriors (see Chapter 3). Similar pots, however, appear in contemporary children burials east of the Tizsa river in “Gepidia.” This further indicates that deposition of handmade pots should be interpreted in terms of age status, not ethnicity.«. (p. 193)

Even where the so called Grubenhäuser (sunken buildings) are concerned we should be more cautious: »Archaeologists /.../ divide "Gepidia" into three areas: the Tisza plain, north Serbia, and Transilvania. Large sixth-century settlements excavated in Transilvania include sunken buildings (Grubenhäuser) /.../ Such buildings were common in contemporary settlement of Central and Western Europe. The earliest, but also richest, burials, dated to the second half of the fifth century also come from Transivania. High-status burials /.../ may indicate the presence of a power center, perhaps the most important in the area during the half-century following the demise of Attila\'s Hunnic Empire.« (p. 194)

Interestingly in the book Balkan Prehistory, Douglass W. Bailey mentions in the Balkans the semi-subterranean pit buildings similar to Grubenhäuser. These semi-subterranean pit buildings have been a form of simple dwelling places at least from 6500 BC and continued as such even after the breakdown of the élite (end of the Copper age). [3] Indeed there is no reason to believe that archaeological particularities give any hints of a migration of a community. This could only be seen as one of the key arguments, because of which the 6th Century mass migration is loosing its credibility.

Curta argues that »The distribution of hoards in the Balkans would at best indicate that large tracts in the western and central parts were not touched by invasions at all.« (p. 170)

He argues that distribution and frequency of the so-called coin hoards do not support the migration theory: »The distribution of sixth-century hoards in the Balkans reveals, however, a striking difference between central regions, such as Serbia and Macedonia, and the eastern provinces included in the diocese of Thrace. With just one exception, there is no hoard in the eastern Balkans with a terminus post quem before 600.« (p. 171)

In light of this, the presence of the coin hoards could be re-interpreted. Curta suggests that they could be the result of a closed Byzantine economy. For example, the hoards of five to nine solidi could »indicate the presence of the Roman army, not Avar or Slavic attacks.«. (p. 178)

Furthermore, it was not only mis-interpretations but also inaccurate dating and flawed methods that forced the migrationist model into a »cul-de-sac«. Such arguments had encountered a dead-end and could no longer be expanded upon. In the Chapter titled DATING THE CHANGE: WHERE WERE THE EARLY SLAVS? (pp. 228-235) Curta cites »serious methodological flaws« and misdatings in archaeological approaches towards migrations of the Slavs, even in the »Greek territory«. This argument strikes yet another crippling blow against migrationism.

With these and other proofs, Curta challenges scholars to revisit migrationist conceptions: »First there is already enough evidence to move away from the migrationist model which has dominated the discipline of Slavic archaeology ever since its inception. A retreat from migrationism is necessary simply because the available data do not fit any of the current models for the study of (pre)historic migration. Cultural correspondences were too often explained in terms of long-distance migration, despite lack of any clear concept of migration to guide such explanations.« (p. 307)




Slaveni - Veneti - Wends?

Regarding the connection between Sclavenes and Veneti, Curta\'s conclusion is breathtaking even if applied only to the northern Veneti: »Archaeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs.« (p. 13)

The failure to distinguish between various Veneti groups may lead to a link between the Baltic Veneti and the Alpine Wends (or Winds). If such a link existed, the relations should be visible to us. For example, present day Wendic toponyms (Wendisch, Windisch, Venediger, etc.;http://www.veneti.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=188, 1. 3. 2008) could be relics of past Venetic settlements.

Curta also analyzes Jordanes on the Veneti: »Jordanes calls one and the same river Viscla when referring to Sclavenes, and Vistula, when speaking of Venethi. This was interpreted as an indication of two different sources. In the case of Venethi, the source may have been an ancient similar to Ptolemy\'s geography. It is equally possible, however, Jordanes was inspired here by Tacitus, for, like him, he constantly associates Venethi with Aesti.« (p. 40)
However, Jordanes\' report retains a convincing validity regardless of his sources.

On the next page (p. 41), Curta divides the Veneti with the following argument: »In the "catalogue of nations" /from Jordanes\' Getica/, we are told that the Venethi were "chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes," which could only mean that Venethi were subdivided into two categories, the Sclavenes and the Antes.« This seems an interpretive difference and is perhaps best left decided by readers. However when analyzing Fredegar\'s and Bobbio\'s report, Curta forms a more solid conclusion: »Fredegar had two apparently equivalent terms for the same ethnie: Sclauos coinomento Winedos. There are variants for both terms, such as Sclavini or Venedi. The \'Wends\' appear only in political context: the Wends, and not the Slavs, were befulci of the Avars; the Wends, and not the Slavs, made Samo their king. It is therefore, possible that \'Wends\' and \'Sclavenes\' are meant to denote a specific social and political configuration, in which such concepts as state or ethnicity are relevant, while \'Slavs\' is a more general term, used in a territorial rather than an ethnic sense. \'Wends\' and \'Slavs\' were already in use when Fredegar wrote Book IV. They first appear in Jonas of Bobbio\'s Life of St. Columbanus,([termini]Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur). written sometime between 639 and 643. According to Jonas, Columbanus had once thought of preaching to the Wends, who were called Slavs.« (p. 60)
Representing another very interesting interpretation of a source, Curta once again supports the idea that medieval authors were not mistaken or misled.


A surprise in the scientific field?
It may be valuable to note that some of Curta\'s predecessors outlined a similar approach. Archaeologist Colin Renfrew states that there is no evidence for cultural and linguistic changes in Europe which archaeological research could offer. [4] There are also papers such as these two modern works: Veneti -First Builders of European Community (M. Bor, J. Šavli, I. Tomažič, 1989, 1996-English version) and Origini delle lingue d\'Europa (M. Alinei, 1996, 2000). In the former, though written by non-professionals seeking to validate a specific national identity, some arguments still find support in the historical and linguistic evidence: »colonization of Slavs in the Alps during the above time /6th Century/ cannot be authenticated by any historical source. It represents a fabricated, fictitious view that is repeated without critical examination.« (p. 5)
In the latter, Mario Alinei also uses a linguistic argument: »I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the \'arrival\' of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live
Prof. Florin Curta deftly maneuvers among German, French, English, Romanian, Italian, Russian, Bulgarian, Czech, Ancient Greek and Latin texts. This is surely a big advantage for doing comprehensive research work, since there is a much wider spread of material available. In addition, Curta\'s ability to span many languages with his research may also have inspired him to mount a successful challenge against some traditional or national linguistic-based theories.


Literature
[1] Florin Curta, The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region c. 500-700, Cambridge, UK 2001, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0 521 80202 4.
[2] M. Guštin, Starejša bronasta doba v Prekmurju. Horizont pramenaste (litzen) lončenine; v: Zbornik soboškega muzeja 8 [uredil Janez Balažic] - Murska Sobota: Pokrajinski muzej Murska Sobota, 2005, p. 86.
[3] Douglass W. Bailey, Balkan Prehistory, Routledge, London, New York 2000.
[4] Colin Renfrew, Archeology and Language, I Cape Ltd., London 1987, in: Proceedings of the First International Topical Conference The Veneti within the Ethnogenesis of the Central-European Population, Jutro, Ljubljana 2002, 24-34 (ISBN 961-6433-06-7).
[5] Joseph Skulj, Y-Chromosome Frequencies and the Implications on the Theories relating to the Origin and Settlement of Finno-Ugric, Proto-Hungarian and Slavic Populations, Proceedings of the Fifth International Topical Conference Origin of Europeans, Jutro, Ljubljana 2007, 39 (ISBN 961-6433-83-9).

***********************
P. S. Here is a list with prof Curta\'s other publications pertaining to the Slavic ethnogenesis:

Tworzenie Slowian. Powrót do slowianskiej etnogenezy." In Nie-Slowianie o poczatkach Slowian. Edited by Przemyslaw Urbanczyk, pp. 27-55 and 157-164. Poznan/Warsaw: Poznanskie Towarzystwo Przyjaciól Nauk/Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii Polskiej Akademii Nauk , 2006, 1. 2. 2008.

"Frontier ethnogenesis in Late Antiquity: the Danube, the Tervingi, and the Slavs." In Borders, Barriers, and Ethnogenesis. Frontiers in Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Edited by Florin Curta (Studies in the Early Middle Ages, 12), pp. 173-204. Turnhout: Brepols, 2005.

"Barbarians in Dark-Age Greece: Slavs or Avars?" In Civitas Divino-Humana. In honorem annorum LX Georgii Bakalov. Edited by Tsvetelin Stepanov and Veselina Vachkova, pp. 513-550. Sofia: Centar za izsledvaniia na balgarite Tangra TanNakRa IK, 2004., 1. 2. 2008.

"From Kossinna to Bromley: ethnogenesis in Slavic archaeology." In On Barbarian Identity. Critical Approaches to Ethnicity in the Early Middle Ages. Edited by Andrew Gillett (Studies in the Early Middle Ages, 4), pp. 201-218. Turnhout: Brepols, 2002, 1. 2. 2008.

"The \'Prague type\'. A critical approach to pottery classification." In Hoi skoteinoi aiones tou Byzantiou (7os-9os ai.). The Dark Centuries of Byzantium (7th-9th c.). Ed. by Eleonora Kountoura-Galake (Diethne Symposia 9), pp. 171-188. Athens: National Hellenic Research Foundation, Institute for Byzantine Research, 2001.

"The Slavic lingua franca (Linguistic notes of an archaeologist turned historian)." East Central Europe/L\'Europe du Centre-Est 31 (2004), no. 1: 125-148, 1. 2. 2008.
 
A number of genetic studies have been made recently in order to determine the structure of ancient European populations. Joseph Skulj concluded that »/a/bsence of HG16 /a genetic marker/ in the male population of the Pannonian plain and in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and the Balkan populations /…/ disproves the theory that the ‘southern’ Slavs migrated to the present locations 1500 years ago, from the areas beyond the Carpathian Mountains. Had they done so, they would have brought with them HG16, which is frequent and widely distributed genetic marker north and northeast of the Carpathian Mountains – in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.«[5] Prof. Curta\'s position towards such studies is significantly absent from his book.
 
so Veneti which are Slavs on the Atlantic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on the Baltic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on Adriatic coast and Veneti which are Slavs in central and eastern Europe.
 
so Veneti which are Slavs on the Atlantic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on the Baltic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on Adriatic coast and Veneti which are Slavs in central and eastern Europe.
this conclusion doesnot follow from historic data above...
in fact, Veneti on atlantic coast are area where Breton Celtic is still spoken and is one of the places with most dominant R1b-L21 and no R1a at all....

btw. interesting link
http://www.r1a.org/3.htm
 
A number of genetic studies have been made recently in order to determine the structure of ancient European populations. Joseph Skulj concluded that »/a/bsence of HG16 /a genetic marker/ in the male population of the Pannonian plain and in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and the Balkan populations /…/ disproves the theory that the ‘southern’ Slavs migrated to the present locations 1500 years ago, from the areas beyond the Carpathian Mountains. Had they done so, they would have brought with them HG16, which is frequent and widely distributed genetic marker north and northeast of the Carpathian Mountains – in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.«[5] Prof. Curta\'s position towards such studies is significantly absent from his book.

have you read Skulj?
He is proposing that the slovenes and other south slavic people where always in the balkans as original people and they became slavs due to learning the slavic language after the slavic migration period of 600AD.

He is trying to say that these slavs where there before the illyrians and thracians, basically, the south slavs are not slavs and the original people where absorbed by illyrians or thracians.

In regards to your carpathian mountains, they have never been called venetic mountians...there original name was Montes bastanae after the germanic tribe and later they became montes Sarmatae after the Sarmatians
 
so Veneti which are Slavs on the Atlantic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on the Baltic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on Adriatic coast and Veneti which are Slavs in central and eastern Europe.

what about portugal, spain, wales, ireland and scotland...there where veneti tribes there too
 
have you read Skulj?
He is proposing that the slovenes and other south slavic people where always in the balkans as original people and they became slavs due to learning the slavic language after the slavic migration period of 600AD.

Yes i did. But there are also the small problem of:

1. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian having the biggest dialect diversity of all the Slavic languages which points to this area of Europe as being the birthplace of the Slavic language.
2. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian containing the oldest versions of Slavic words and as pointed in many different linguistic works could be one of the sources for the development of latin and greek.
3. Slavic dialects were used for deciphering Etruscan and Venetic inscriptions.
All this (plus the genetic data) points to

  1. Slovenes did live in the same place in antiquity and they were Slavs, the oldest original root branch of the Slavic tree.
 
Yes i did. But there are also the small problem of:

1. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian having the biggest dialect diversity of all the Slavic languages which points to this area of Europe as being the birthplace of the Slavic language.
2. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian containing the oldest versions of Slavic words and as pointed in many different linguistic works could be one of the sources for the development of latin and greek.
3. Slavic dialects were used for deciphering Etruscan and Venetic inscriptions.
All this (plus the genetic data) points to

  1. Slovenes did live in the same place in antiquity and they were Slavs, the oldest original root branch of the Slavic tree.


well just few notices
The richest language (diversity) of all IE still is Greek
Modern Greek is consider the most rich language of the world
Linguistic diversity has to do with the contact with other languages
South Slavic diversity especially has to do that land and people spoke other languages before, learn and assimilate Slavic, and also came in contact with Turkic populations, as also they were occupied by Turks

Lets check Slavic Makedonian,
in the land known languages that exist
Thracian-Getae
Greek
Roman
Slavic Serbian after Dusan
Slavic Bulgarian (Severi) and Cymeon
Cuman
Albanian
Turks
(Germanic Goths maybe)

as you that make the local language to have more diversity than another Slavic area that did not have so many contacts.

In fact that is a prove that south Slavic were not the primary language before Slavic migrations to Balkans


on the other hand lets see the most conservative Slavic the Lithouania
Lithouania has the least contacts with other languages and Baltic is relative to Slavic so it remains with low diversity, poor and pure

now about Slovenians and Carantanians Carnia and Carinthia are connected with Greek corinth, Carnios Apollo and have origin in minor Asia the area known as Karia if Carinthians were Slavic speakers that makes that Slavic exist in minor Asia in Karia,
the result of such a claim or prove show that IE was a farmers language nad not a hunters
if Carinthians were Slavic it means that Kurgan has no point and agricultural hypothesis (Anatolian minor Asian) is truth

Another point is the archaiology,
If Carinthians were Slavic and proto Slavic, then they should express their selves and leave their languages behind them, even by using another alphabet as Odrysse Thracians did,
do we have Slavic vocabulary in Slovenia before Cyrill with another alphabet?
 
Last edited:
what about portugal, spain, wales, ireland and scotland...there where veneti tribes there too

yes there were. and this is where you find the explanation for "the Celtic polution of the ancient Gaelic languages" as Irish writer film maker and historian Bob Quinn states in his book the Atlantean Irish which was printed in 1983. He is a native Gaelic speaker and a great supporter of the Irish language and culture. He is by the way the person who first pointed to me that there is something funy about the Celtic idea. In the book he cites many Irish scolars who support the idea that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and that Irish are not Celts and that their language and culture predate the so called celtic invasion.

Here is his website: http://conamara.org/index.php?page=biography

According to Quinn, the idea of "Celtic" origins was probably invented by Christian intellectuals in the Middle Ages eager to affirm a "racial" pan-European identity amongst the unusual inhabitants of the western seaboards.

here is an audio interview with Bob Quinn. Listen to the real Irish music that you will never hear in Irish pubs.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/booksandartsdaily/irish-writer-bob-quinn/3892134

here is a part of the documetnary series based on the book:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqabDHMQczk
 
Last edited:
Yes i did. But there are also the small problem of:

1. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian having the biggest dialect diversity of all the Slavic languages which points to this area of Europe as being the birthplace of the Slavic language.
2. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian containing the oldest versions of Slavic words and as pointed in many different linguistic works could be one of the sources for the development of latin and greek.
3. Slavic dialects were used for deciphering Etruscan and Venetic inscriptions.
All this (plus the genetic data) points to

  1. Slovenes did live in the same place in antiquity and they were Slavs, the oldest original root branch of the Slavic tree.

so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

none of your number 2 where original slavs, check your history books.....not the Olga one
 

This thread has been viewed 144979 times.

Back
Top