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Thread: Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Its an easy thing for Romans to call unknown people living along the coast in which they do not know of as Venetus - the Roman colour for the Sea.
    This is all hypothetical , but we all know only 1 historian actually visited the Baltic sea and he noted the Venedi in modern day nation of Latvia.
    All scholars today claim a different genetic marker for the Venedi, but this marker, of only 3 months of age ( L1029+) should reveal something else in the future

    The only link between the Venedi of the baltic with the Veneti of the Adriatic was the amber road
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

    Venedi (Vandal, Vandalii, Vyatechy, Wesi, Veneti, Antes and so on) were ancestors of Balts, Slavs and even some Germans. They lived on rivers (mostly in Central Europe: from the Rhine to the Dnepr) and sea shores (mostly Baltic and North sea) and were involved in trade by various routs by river and sea. The core of this group of people consisted of R1a-Z280 guys, that's why we have today so many clades donwstream from R1a-Z280 and so few from R1a-M458.
    The most amazing thing is that even now so many years past we can see trade routes of R1a-Z280 covering all the Central Europe and connecting Northern and Southern Europe and Eastern and Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yetos, it's pretty clear that the Getae and the Goths were very distinct people. Sources like Pliny and Strabo place them consistently along the Danube as well as the shore of the Black Sea (notably, the so-called "Tyragetae"), and there's no reason to assume that they were Germanic in any way. In contrast, the Goths ("Gothones" or "Guthones") were placed by Ptolemy along the east bank of the Vistula river. Tacitus also places the Goths clearly somewhere in the eastern periphery of Germania, which matches that location. The only person to ever draw a connection between the Getae and the Goths was Jordanes, which, for the reasons I previously described, cannot be treated as a particularly reliable source.

    I have to add that I find it a little remarkable that this keeps popping up. If one uses sources other than Jordanes, it's pretty clear that there is no connection.
    I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.
    Reading about the goths and their hereditary homeland, I find Ptolemy slightly wrong in saying that the goths lived on the west bank of the vistula, they lived on both sides of the vistula and their border was the Nogat river in the east and as far as the hinterpommern western border. East of the goths on the other side of the Nogat river was the Venedi which are baltic people and next to these venedi was the Aestii

    As for Jordanes, he was a goth born in pannonia who wrote nothing originally but plagarised other writers and converted their findings to enforce the greatness of the Goths.

    Father's Mtdna H95a1
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    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.
    Where is the evidence for this, other than Jordanes' claims? You have to consider that we have a substantial corpus of Gothic (thanks to a 4th century bible translation), and there is no sign of such a (Dacian or whatever) substrate language.

    Besides, do you think that Jordanes can really be trusted with such claims like the Goths fightings against the Egyptians, or allying themselves with Alexander the Great (I'm not making any of that up: Jordanes really wrote that)? I think not.

    Also, why shouldn't the people of the Wielbark Culture have been Germanic? The culture is effectively contemporary to authors such as Pliny, Tacitus and Ptolemy, all which mention the Goths and place them into approximately that area (Ptolemy is also very specific about this, as I have mentioned).

    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Venedi (Vandal, Vandalii, Vyatechy, Wesi, Veneti, Antes and so on) were ancestors of Balts, Slavs and even some Germans. They lived on rivers (mostly in Central Europe: from the Rhine to the Dnepr) and sea shores (mostly Baltic and North sea) and were involved in trade by various routs by river and sea. The core of this group of people consisted of R1a-Z280 guys, that's why we have today so many clades donwstream from R1a-Z280 and so few from R1a-M458.
    The most amazing thing is that even now so many years past we can see trade routes of R1a-Z280 covering all the Central Europe and connecting Northern and Southern Europe and Eastern and Western Europe.
    What are you basing this on? How do you see a link here?

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    Phoenician (derives from Feniti, Veneti) god Baal was Slavic god Veles (Vaal or Vol; "wool" (Bull; Ox(Vol).

    There are linguistic indications that even Akkadians have had some influence of old Slavic languages. Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga collected at least 500 words/similarities between Slovene-old Akkadian in a short dictionary. (In Slovene remained also strong similarities with the ancient Rig Vedic (Rek Vedski) Sanskrit); and Sanskrit shared similarities with Hittite. For example: Hittite city of Kadesh shares similarities with the Sanskrit term deza which means "country" and with Slovene dežela which means a "country". The similar form for this word is "Desh". So "Kad-desh" or "Country of Hittites". (and not a "holy land" as it is explained on Wikipedia.
    Veneti were a multi ethnic, lingual people but I think that there were similarities between them over the "Amber road/path". From Scandinavia (if you've ever heard about the theory of "Troy (another Venetic people) in Scandinavia") to Paflagonia, Anatolia, Venetic territories.

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    Alternate reality is usually a synonym for a parallel universe.
    It may also refer to:Alternative universe (fan fiction), fiction by fan authors that deliberately alters facts of the canonical universe they are writing about

    "Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga ..." Engineer!

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    He was originally mechanical Engineer, later he studied linguistics ;)

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    Well... say that again...

    This is the comparision between Slovene, Sanskrit, Egyptian and several other languages. You can still find several similarities. It seems that world was once much more "connected" than it is thought among the "linguistss"...
    Translations

    Sanskrit - Slovene Egyptian - Slovene
    +harši+ - kruh =kšr= - kruh
    +uni+ - oni, tisti (3. os edn) =na= - tisto, ono

    *pištaka* - piškot, potica =pAt, pat= - potica, pecivo
    *šrA* - cvreti =ašr= - cvretje
    *biš* - bežati =bha= - beg
    *duhitr* - hčer =hrdt= - hčer, otroci
    *bubura* - voda (brbotanje) =babat= - izvir, jbr - potoček (žuborenje)
    *muš* - muha =mht= - mušica
    *mastu* - surovo maslo =mrht= - mast
    *astha, šukti* - kost =ks= - kost
    *kaš* - kašelj =khkht= - kašelj
    *krna* - krma =hmw= - krma
    *karman* - delo (garanje) =hmwj= - delo
    *jabh*- spolnost =jb= - srce, ljubezen
    *dru* - drveti =trr= - dirka
    *tamas* - tema =tnmw= - tema
    *sitja* - žito =swt= - žito
    *tana* - nit =nd= - nit
    *svastika* - zvezda =sħdw= - zvezda
    *čihna* - znak, cihna =tĦn= – obelisk, stela, vrata, ibis
    *nava* - novo +neua+ - novo =mwj= - novo
    *AvAre* - branik +auari+ - stolp, straža =hwj=-varovanje
    *mišra*- mešano +immijani+ - mešati =amj= - mešanje
    *dura* - daleč +dalugašti+ - dolžina =dr= - oddaljiti
    *anna* - hrana +adana+ - jed, hrana =hnw= - hrana
    *tapas* - toplota +tapaša+ - vročica =taw= - vročina
    *svapna* - spanec +šup+ - spati =šab= - slepo
    *pari, sprš*- prijeti +epp, epAri+ - prijeti =šsp= - prijeti
    * ruša, rakta* - rdeče +ešharuant+ - škrlatno =čr, jns= - rdeče
    (=dšrt=- rdeča zemlja)

    Egiptian-Slovenian similarities;

    =čat=- posoda, čeber, shramba, čast (=sata= - kača, zemeljska površina, čast)
    =gaga= - gaganje =hajt= - vhod, nebo
    =Ħčn=- česen =Ħprt= - dogodek, prihodnost
    =Hkrt= - okrasje =jħw= - jasli, hlev
    =jnk= - moje, jaz =jrwt= - obred
    =jt= - 1. ata, dedek, učitelj, predniki, 2. ječmen, žito
    =jw= - ja, tako je, resnično ( je) =kħaw= - kotel
    =kħs= - del, kos =kħkħ= - krhko
    =qdrt= - kadilo =qrsw= - krsta
    =mrħt= - mast =mrj= - marati, ljubiti, nasesti, hlapec =nhj= - nekaj =nsa= - nož
    =ppn= - poper =prw= – vzhod, sprevod, vsota, pivo
    =psjt= - posoda =rš= - vrh
    =sawj=- podaljšanje, lastno, svoje =sawtj= - stražar
    =sAď =- zdraviti =sbtj= - zid, obzidje
    =sčp= - poskočiti =sh= - ustrašiti, ustrahovati
    =spj= - gradnja ladje, ostanek, preostajanje, spajanje
    =sĦAt= - zajec =swaš= - slaviti
    =šbt= - buča =šďt= - testo
    =snnw= - drugotno, rezerva, slama, seno
    =šwšjt= - suša, izsušenost =šww= - slama
    =tnmw= - tema =wan= - brin
    =wAmt= - omejitev =wnħw= - venec
    =wr= - lastovica, starosta , kralj, pomen, sila, velikost, mnogo, veliko =wršt= - stražarnica =wsrt= –ogenj, mučilni kol, vrat
    =wsrw= - sila, veslo =ww= – val

    =Awt= -posoda, žezlo, pastirska palica, drobnica ( ovca )
    =babat= - izvir ( brbotanje) =babaw= -jama ( bavbav)
    =bak= - delati, delavec ( bog, bik) =črb= - posoda ( črepinja)
    =djw= – krilo, predpasnik ( odeja ) =ga= - petje, piskanje, naprava, čaplja (godba) =gwn= - vreča (gvant ) =ħbs= - oblačenje, obleka, pokrov ( jerbas )
    =ħp= - hitenje, dlan, bik Apis ( hip)
    =Ħast= - hribovje, gorata dežela, tujina ( hosta)
    =Ħprr= - skarabej, sončni bog (keber)
    = Hast - vodnjak ( štirna)
    =jakb= - žalovanje / =jk= - tožiti ( jok)
    =jaq= - obvladati ( jako ) =jam= - žrtvovati / jama
    =mska= - koža, kožuh ( maska) =jčn= - tožba, kričanje, ječanje =jča= - lopov ( ječa) =jnq= - zajeti združiti (junak)
    =jrčt= - mleko ( ričet, jogurt) =jrp= -grozdje, trta, vino (tropine) =qrnt= - (neobrezan) falus (kurent) =kap=-pokriti, skriti, streha ( kapa)
    =qrrtj= - prebivalec podzemlja, sončni bog ( krt, krtova dežela)
    =mačw= - žezlo ( meč) =maAt= - resnica, pravica ( mera)
    =maħ= - ploskanje, venec (mahanje) =mďt= - mazilo ( mast)
    =mnhjw= - kamen ( menhir) =mw= – voda ( morje)
    =njwt= – naselje, mesto, nasprotno nebo ( njive)
    =nďnď =- prošnja, klepet ( čenčanje, nič )
    =pħ= - doseči, zgrabiti, napasti ( pehati se, upehati)
    =rĦ= - izkušnja, spoznanje, spolno občevanje, vedenje ( res)
    =skr= - Sokar - sokoljeglavi bog onstranstva ( sokol)
    =sn= - odpiranje, vohanje, brat, svak ( nos )
    =spr= - prispetje, prošnja, rebro ( prsa)
    =šrr= - majhno, nepomembno, mlado, tekoče (drobno, zrnato)
    =tkn= - bližanje, približanje ( dotikanje)
    =rmj= - jok, rama ( jamranje) =rnpt= - leto ( lani, zopet)
    =rp= - mošnja ( žep) =najt= - tkalnica ( nit)
    =rd= – noga, sled, rast ( nart) =ršt= - riba ( roštilj)
    =srt= – ovca, trn ( srt) =stA= - dejavnost (storiti)
    =stwtj= - vsebina ( vsota ) =šaq= - torba ( žakelj)
    =ts= – zavezati (tesno) =wabt= - korenina, hrana ( vaba )
    =wrrjt= – voz ( vrtenje) =wšaw= - tema, noč ( večer)

    sanskrt punic

    *sal* - poslati »šlh« - poslati, razširiti se
    *vid* - vedeti »jdA« - vedeti
    *abhra* - prah »Apr« - prah
    *žara* - starost »ršat« - starost
    *rAža* - kralj »raš« - glava, glavar
    *arka* - žarek »Ar« - luč
    *išta* - želja »aršt« - želja
    *brnh* - močno »bra« - močno
    *hari* - zlato »hrš« - zlato
    *mlAj* - veneti, medleti »aml« - veneti, medleti
    *jAga* - žrtev »jgn« - dar
    *Aža* - koza »Az« - kozel
    *rbhi* - mojster, obrtnik »rb« - mojster, učitelj
    *rt* - beseda, reč »rAt« - sklep
    *šam* - svetnik »šm« - narediti, slava
    *suprija* - zelo prijetno »spr« - lepo, čudovito
    *kAla* - čas »kl« - vse, vsebovanje
    *bala* - sila »bAl« - vlada, malik
    *nr* - človek, junak, narod »nAr« - sin

    hettite punsko

    +uijanna+ - vino »jn« - vino
    +šuppiuašhar+ - čebula »bśl« -čebula

    egyptian punic

    =tr= – čas, trenutek, trajanje »dr« - čas, družina
    =qd= - zidanje, skleda, kad »kd« - vrč ( kad)


    sanskrt hettite punic

    *grath* - graditi +gurta+ - grad »gdr« - zid ( grad)
    *lih* - lizati +lip+ - lizati »lšn« - jezik
    *krt* - sekati +kartAj+ - odrezati »krt« - zaklati


    sanskrt egyptian punic

    *aham* - jaz =jnk= - jaz »ank« - jaz
    *ptat* - ptič =Apd= - ptič »Apt« - ptič
    *mr* - umreti =mwt= - umiranje »mt« - umreti
    *pračh* - vprašati =sprw= prošnja »arš« - vprašati
    *pač* - kuhati =psj= - kuha »apj« - peči
    *phala* - plod =prt= - plod »pr« - plod
    *dur* - duri, vrata =trj= - vhod, vrata »dlht« - vrata, tabla
    *stri* - ženska =st= - ženska »ašt« - ženska
    *šri* - sreča =ršrš= - sreča »arš« - sreča
    *bhu* - biti, bivati =bjt= – čebela, kralj, značaj »bt« - bajta
    *bhr* - pobrati, nesti =br= - borša, barka, barvilo »nša« - nositi
    *bhaja* - strah =sAba= - bojazen »bAt« - cena, strah



    egyptian hettite punic

    =hmwtj= - umetnik +ummijani+ - umetnik »amn« - umetnik




    sanskrt hettite

    *sadas* - sedež +ašatar, ašandaš+ - sedež
    *juga* - plug +appalašša+ - plug
    *giri* - gora +šer+ - gor, zgoraj
    *tAta* - oče +atta, adduš+ - oče
    *čašaka* - čaša +ateš+ - čaša (+huppar+ - kupa)
    *antar* - notri +anturija, andurza+ – notri
    *dama, amA*-dom, doma +parna, damet+ - dom, razkošje
    *živa* - življenje +huiš+ - živeti
    *dAru, dru* - les +taru+ - les, drvo
    *dAja, jAga* - dar, darovanje +iuar+ - dar
    *šrnga, karna* - rog, uho +karuar+ - rogovje
    *tala* - dlan (*kara* - roka) +keššar+ - dlan
    *madhu* - med +milit+ - med
    *manžu, sasneha*-nežno +genzu+ - nežnost, ljubezen
    *pAda* - stopalo, peta +pat+ - stopalo
    *han* - nehati +zena+ - konec
    *šarad* - leto +št+ - leto
    *deša* - dežela (*kšetra* - polje) +dagan, tekan+ - zemlja
    *drš; dršti* - zreti, videti +uatar+ - videti, vid
    *kloša* - klic +kaleš+ - klicanje
    *sunu* - sin +ši-+sin
    *pA, sar* - piti, srkati +pašk+ - srkati, piti
    *As, lapana*- usta +aiš+ - usta (allapahh - pljuniti)
    *tvam* - ti +ta+ - tebe, tebi
    *upanga* -sv, znak (sandale na čelu) +kunzi+ - sveti znak
    *anka* - zanka, kljuka +anku+ - popolnoma


    egyptian punic

    =st=- stol (=jsbt= - prestol ) »jšb« - sedež
    =hbw= - plug »alp« - plug
    =hr= - hribovje, kanal »hr« - hribovje
    =wtčw= - sin, oče »abt« - očetje
    =kč= - kupa, čaša »kba« - kupa, čaša
    =hnw= - notri (nčr - bog) »bgw« - notri
    =pr= - hiša, stavba, prostor »am« -domače mesto
    =AhAw= - življenje »hwj« - živeti
    =nArt= - drevo (js - les) »jAr, As« - les, drvo
    =dj= - dati »dl«-delo (»jgn«-dar)
    =wpt= - rogovje (db - rog) »krn« - rog
    =mjt= - omamna pijača »npt« - med
    =drt= - dlan »jd« - dlan
    =b= - stopalo »pAm« - stopalo
    =sfn= - nežnost »snf« - nežno
    =hn= - nehati »nh« - mir, počitek
    =rnpt= - leto »št« - leto
    =ša= - dežela »šd« - polje, dežela
    =jrt= - oko, vid »hzj« - zreti
    =kj= - klicanje »kra« - klicanj
    =sa= - potomec, sin »bn, š-« sin
    =pš= - pijača (swr - srkanje) »štj« - piti, srkati
    =ra= - usta »p« - usta
    =tw= - ti, te, tebe »at« - ti
    =čbt= - sandala, copata »ţbAt« - pečat

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    I call this language "human language", if we all come from Africa, then this might be the proof of it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    I call this language "human language", if we all come from Africa, then this might be the proof of it...
    Out of Africa origin goes back 70 thousand years. Do you think that any language could retain any words any artifacts of the original African language? It is more likely that similarities and borrowings in languages go back to spread of farming 10-5,000 years ago from Near East and spread of Indo-Europeans 4,000 years ago in Europe and Asia.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceOwnsImposters View Post
    The veneti/wends/vandals/goth phoenicians were the basques aka the 1st mariners and 1st white race that colonized the earth and gave rise to white people aka true hebrews of the bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    Phoenician (derives from Feniti, Veneti) god Baal was Slavic god Veles (Vaal or Vol; "wool" (Bull; Ox(Vol).

    There are linguistic indications that even Akkadians have had some influence of old Slavic languages. Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga collected at least 500 words/similarities between Slovene-old Akkadian in a short dictionary. (In Slovene remained also strong similarities with the ancient Rig Vedic (Rek Vedski) Sanskrit); and Sanskrit shared similarities with Hittite. For example: Hittite city of Kadesh shares similarities with the Sanskrit term deza which means "country" and with Slovene dežela which means a "country". The similar form for this word is "Desh". So "Kad-desh" or "Country of Hittites". (and not a "holy land" as it is explained on Wikipedia.
    Veneti were a multi ethnic, lingual people but I think that there were similarities between them over the "Amber road/path". From Scandinavia (if you've ever heard about the theory of "Troy (another Venetic people) in Scandinavia") to Paflagonia, Anatolia, Venetic territories.

    I doubt seriously Veneti (WeneTi) could have a link with PHoeniCians (linguistic link of names, I mean): here Wikipedia about phoenicians:

    The name Phoenicians, like Latin Poenī (adj. poenicus, later pūnicus), comes from Greek Φοίνικες (Phoínikes), attested since Homer and influenced by phoînix "Tyrian purple, crimson; murex" (itself from phoinós "blood red").[9] The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites". The folk-etymological association of phoiniki with phoînix mirrors that in Akkadian which tied kinaḫni, kinaḫḫi "Canaan; Phoenicia" to kinaḫḫu "red-dyed wool".[11][12] The land was natively known as knʿn (cf. Eblaite ca-na-na-um, ca-na-na), remembered in the 6th century BC by Hecataeus under the Greek form Chna (χνα), and its people as the knʿny (cf. Punic chanani, Hebrew kanaʿani).

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    Vedun can you give also English translations of those words ??? I want to see what they mean.

    Because for example word "computer" is similar in all languages, but obviously not because of a common Out-Of-Africa origin...

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    OK, how did language branches like Semitic, IE, Caucusian got into existence? All in the same time, or there were people who spoke one of these languages and decided to invent a new one? Or it was just a misfortunate chain of events?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    zanipolo



    you call it Indoeuropean and i will call it Slavic. not the only Slavic mind you. I2a is also Slavic. there was not only one migration between Europe and India. there were many. i believe that people first went from Balkan to India and then went back. Same people same language different generations.

    Now when Indoeuropeans came to Europe from India...
    Indoeuropeans originate in the Pontic or Altaic steppe, NOT India.

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    "I2a is also Slavic."

    Really?

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    The only wends appear to be from the Veleti people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

    and the term was used from germania to the vistula river and nothing or nobody east of this vistula river
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    I wonder if my SNP marker E-Y41980 is tied to movements of Veneti tribe...

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/pt6ylbchao...50192.png?dl=0

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    what a mess,this thread!
    i doubt Y-E of any sort could have a tight link with Veneti of West (Celts) and even with other Veneti, but whoknow.
    I reread qome posts and I found (again) the claiming that all this Ven...something were linked to rivers: but almost every tribe is linked to a river in some way in Europe! I don't know a human group living only on mountains crests or ridges without access to some water!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by EV13SON View Post
    I wonder if my SNP marker E-Y41980 is tied to movements of Veneti tribe...

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/pt6ylbchao...50192.png?dl=0

    That's hard to tell. The only thing we can say is that it is likely that the Veneti had more E-V13 than neighbouring Italics. For one, the modern region has a higher frequency than the neighbouring areas, but its hard to tell to which era and people this can be attributed. In the other regions of the macro-region, those areas with a better continuity of the non-Italic local Iron Age, mostly Urnfield and Hallstatt derived, E-V13 is higher. Examples being Western Switzerland, Eastern Switzerland (especially St. Gallen), Tyrol, Eastern and Central-Southern Austria, Liguria, area of Venice, especially the more coastal regions, especially in some old settlements, including those of so called commons. Slovenia being split into a Western-Central part with extremely low frequency, but higher J2, probably dating back to the more Illyrian shifted Unterkrainer group, but possibly being the result of later shifts to, with the Eastern parts (Styria and Lower Carniola) having higher percentages, the latter also because of Uskoks as a historical migration.

    In any case, the classic Italic areas have a fairly low percentage, Ligurian, Veneti, Eastern Hallstatt with Basarabi-Dacian ties, so later most of the Alpine Celts and Alpine Romance, higher. Its very noticeable in the areas which are the most Italic and typically Italian, E-V13 is very low, its highest in areas which had Ligurians, Veneti, Alpine Celts and later Germanic-Slavic-Greek settlements. Culturally the Veneti being much more influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians and Eastern Hallstatt than regular Italics and its not by chance they were renowned for their horsmanship, gear and horsebreeds. Unlike the regular Italics, which had a much weaker developed cavalry and horse breeding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    what a mess,this thread!
    i doubt Y-E of any sort could have a tight link with Veneti of West (Celts) and even with other Veneti, but whoknow.
    I reread qome posts and I found (again) the claiming that all this Ven...something were linked to rivers: but almost every tribe is linked to a river in some way in Europe! I don't know a human group living only on mountains crests or ridges without access to some water!

    did you mean these Veneti

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti_(Gaul)
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    @Torzio:
    Yes.
    I read the abstract you give me its link. Interesting but not conclusive. These genetic diseases seems very very seldom, even in their places of higest occurrence; the genes causing them can disappear or increase in a few generations, according to their variable effects (homo > < heterozygoty) and more or less physical exertions;let's look at haplo's drifts/founder effects in some cases. Some other diseases are more probant because they occur at higher occurrence in pop's, due to less letal effects. I have not read the intire abstract and it would interesting to know if this diseaese is always caused by the same precise modification in genome.
    I doubt (at this point of time) of an Anatolian origin of all "Veneti"+ "(H)eneti" and so late.
    Concerning possible links between some Veneti, I would accept very more easily a connection between southern Veneti (N-Adriatic) and northern Veneti (Poland), because it could be very possible pan-Italic Veneti came from a more northern earkier position than N-Adriatic, for linguistic reasons.
    That said, I have no cristal bowl.
    Thanks for your post.

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    I want to clear up any misconception I was not suggesting the Veneti or Wends (Proto Slavs) were large haplogroup E carriers, I fully believe they were Indo Europeans, I just wondered if these tribes could have picked up some E-V13, to help explain the formation of SNP E-Y41980 or YFULL E-Y17356, when settling in the Italian region and possibly bringing north into the Baltic and Scandinavian regions. However as Riverman suggested it could have originated in Swiss/Austrian territory and traveled north as well, I will have to familiarize myself with the other neighboring tribes.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by EV13SON View Post
    I want to clear up any misconception I was not suggesting the Veneti or Wends were large haplogroup E carriers, I fully believe they were Indo Europeans, I just wondered if these tribes could have picked up some E-V13, to help explain the formation of SNP E-Y41980 or YFULL E-Y17356, when settling in the Italian region and possibly bringing north into the Baltic and Scandinavian regions. However as Riverman suggested it could have originated in Swiss/Austrian territory and traveled north as well, I will have to familiarize myself with the other neighboring tribes.
    Eastern Hallstatt and Basarabi is the most likely connection, with an earlier along the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which had a good impact on the Veneti. Look at the map again, in Italy, its specifically their territory which got affected:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco...-Cimmerian.png

    This has nothing to do with Indoeuropean or not, because E was Indoeuropean at that time, for a long time. A possible path was from Lengyel -> Epi-Corded -> Fzesabony -> Kyjatice-Piliny-Gava -> Channelled Ware horizon spread with Daco-Thracian speakers (IE, linguistically closest to Baltoslavs and Illyrians in an intermediate position probably).

    I was searching for a connection of the old "smith caste" surviving in the Epi-Corded context, as one theory of how E-V13 could survive the steppe conquest and being integrated in the new Corded Ware world coming from Lengyel. This might be a possible path, the origin of Gava can be traced to the Upper Tisza, the triangle of Hungary-Slovakia-Romania, and cultural formations like Suciu de Sus, Lăpuş, Kyjatice, Piliny - about which possible origin I wrote my last post. Now I made this highly interesting find:

    Die Bronzewerksttten der Pilinyer und der Kyjatice-Kultur31 beschafften ihre regionalen Rohstoffen aus der Erzlagersttten der
    slowakischen Erzgebirge (Nin Myľa), der westlichen Karpaten (Umgebung von Kremnitz/ Kremnica/ Krmcbnya), sowie der Kleinen und Weien Karpaten (pania Dolina). Die Nutzung dieser
    Bergwerke begann ab der spten Lengyel-Kultur, doch ist auch ihre bronzezeitliche Nutzung (z.B. durch
    die Lausitzer-Kultur) bzw. die Erzverhttung gut bekannt32
    https://www.academia.edu/3060312/Cha...nd_settlements

    Piliny-Kyjatice used the same mines as the Lengyel, there is an ongoing tradition of mining and forging in the Carpathians - a direct continuation from late Lengyel usage in Slovakia! That's bulls eye and could be it.

    For any concrete E-V13 subclade, the path must be evaluated of course, because after the initial spread from the Carpathians, many routes can lead to the same destination.

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    Very interesting Riverman I'm about to head out the door to see Dune , I had argued before in groups that I believe much of E-V13 were probably culturally more Celtic so it looks like you may be on to something to help explain my argument...I will read up this weekend!

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