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Thread: Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

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    Question Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sorry, I meant U152 present in Poland, as per map. It will be interesting getting subclades for Venice area and Poland to see if there are matching ones. When you look at Normandy, second map, there is also a Celtic tribe called Veneti. We might had same celtic/sea fairing tribe in 3 places: Venice, Normandy, and Poland; all by the sea. If we can find same subclade of U152 in 3 of them, then bingo!
    error - Veneti in gauls was settledin the present day department of Morbihan , in Brittany - they was part of the Armoric federation of tribes - AND Armoric was a very big region including Brittany and the coastal regions of Normandy until the Seine river mouth or even further BUT VENETI HAD NEVER BEEN IN NORMANDY... AND LINGUISTS ARE NOT SURE AT ALL OF A RECENT LINK BETWEEN THE 3 VENETI REGIONS OF ANCIENT EUROPE,apart a ancient indo-european one (but this last conclusion could be matter to discussion, I agree)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    error - Veneti in gauls was settledin the present day department of Morbihan , in Brittany - they was part of the Armoric federation of tribes - AND Armoric was a very big region including Brittany and the coastal regions of Normandy until the Seine river mouth or even further BUT VENETI HAD NEVER BEEN IN NORMANDY... AND LINGUISTS ARE NOT SURE AT ALL OF A RECENT LINK BETWEEN THE 3 VENETI REGIONS OF ANCIENT EUROPE,apart a ancient indo-european one (but this last conclusion could be matter to discussion, I agree)
    while knowing more on the adriatic and baltic veneti, I do know a little about the armoric veneti.
    some say that they also where from the cherbourg peninsula of Normandy , they where called Veneli

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli

    Caesar and some roman historians said they where associated with the armorica veneti next door.

    my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
    so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
    baltic veneti = from letts and balts
    armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)

    My only knowledge apart from Roman text is that the phoenicians of southern Spain traded with these 'gallic" veneti for tin, which the veneti got from trade with cornwall and wales

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...unelli&f=false

    there is a lot written about them
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    while knowing more on the adriatic and baltic veneti, I do know a little about the armoric veneti.
    some say that they also where from the cherbourg peninsula of Normandy , they where called Veneli

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli

    Caesar and some roman historians said they where associated with the armorica veneti next door.

    my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
    so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
    baltic veneti = from letts and balts
    armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)

    My only knowledge apart from Roman text is that the phoenicians of southern Spain traded with these 'gallic" veneti for tin, which the veneti got from trade with cornwall and wales

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...unelli&f=false

    there is a lot written about them

    I heard too of this link made by someones linking Veneti and Venelli - somemones know more than me about that - you could go to the BRETAGNE BERTAEYN BRITTANY / ACADEMIA CELTICA forum: there are some people of big knowledge and some interesting topics on ancient Celts -
    what I think is that the name Veneti was genuine to this people that gave its name to the present day town of Vannes, Gwened in breton (it is very common that the name of a gaulish tribe became the name of the big town of the region settled by it, in place of the name of the previous historical 'capitale' of the tribe -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Armoric was a very big region including Brittany and the coastal regions of Normandy until the Seine river mouth or even further )
    Armoric included all the people located in the shores of the English chanel (French side) from present day Britanny to present day French Flanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
    so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
    baltic veneti = from letts and balts
    armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)
    Veneti, Vandali, Weneds, Vyatechi and so on are IE people that settled on rivers (people related to water).

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    Originally Posted by zanipolo
    my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
    so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
    baltic veneti = from letts and balts
    armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)



    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Veneti, Vandali, Weneds, Vyatechi and so on are IE people that settled on rivers (people related to water).
    Taken together, I think these two posts are among the more interesting on Eupedia recently. Too bad they are, relatively speaking, hidden away in a corner of the forum. This discussion is about more, and deeper, subject matter than one SNP under R1b, even if U-152 is an old SNP that proved to have had excellent adaptations for survival and growth.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Veneti, Vandali, Weneds, Vyatechi and so on are IE people that settled on rivers (people related to water).
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Taken together, I think these two posts are among the more interesting on Eupedia recently. Too bad they are, relatively speaking, hidden away in a corner of the forum. This discussion is about more, and deeper, subject matter than one SNP under R1b, even if U-152 is an old SNP that proved to have had excellent adaptations for survival and growth.
    You may call me a sceptic, but I think there's really no connection between these. You just take superficially similar-sounding names out of context and assume a connection:

    Veneti (Armorican tribe)
    Veneti (Adriatic tribe/ethnic group)
    Vandali (East Germanic tribe)
    Venedi (Germanic exonym for Baltic? tribes)
    Wends (German exonym for West Slavic tribes)
    Vyatichi (Slavic tribe)

    The last name is not even superficially similar. I'm not blaming either of your for this, particular because people suggested this before, but I think the similarity is really superficial.

    Especially if you think about etymologies:

    In regard for Armorican Veneti, you can draw a probable link with the Celtic root *wen- meaning "freeman", "compatriot", found for example in the British tribal name "Venicones" or the Old Irish term "Féni" ("Irishmen", "compatriots").

    The term "Vandali" may be related with the English term "to wander". It should be pointed out that the difference between "wand-" and "wend-" is a big one, especially because both words occur in the Germanic context, and because the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is clearly applied as an exonym (on Baltic peoples in Antiquity, on West Slavs in the Medieval Ages).

    I mean, it's really tempting to assume a connection when you see similar sounding names, there's no point in denying that, but, how can you prove there's a connection?

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    I agree with Taranis -
    too often people elaborate complicated theories about origins of ancient populations relying on some phonetical similarity (sometimes comparing different periods of time which is a nonsense) in PARTS of names - similarity is a first step to search further on - not to take immediate conclusions without more proofs... I red somepart a hteory about Brittany as a Phoencician foundation with the name evolution PHENICI <> FENISI <> FENITI <> VENETIx!!! my God! I do not tell here that it goes so far on this topic, it is just to show how it can evolve sometimes

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I agree with Taranis -
    too often people elaborate complicated theories about origins of ancient populations relying on some phonetical similarity (sometimes comparing different periods of time which is a nonsense) in PARTS of names - similarity is a first step to search further on - not to take immediate conclusions without more proofs... I red somepart a hteory about Brittany as a Phoencician foundation with the name evolution PHENICI <> FENISI <> FENITI <> VENETIx!!! my God! I do not tell here that it goes so far on this topic, it is just to show how it can evolve sometimes
    That is a very entertaining and educative example, Moesan. This is because it is wrong on multiple levels. starts out the term "Phoenicians" is a Greek exonym. Apart from absolutely unconceivable sound changes, the initial premise is completely wrong: the Phoenicians refered to themselves as something akin to "Kana'anim" (ie, "Canaanites", after their homeland of Canaan)!

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    I suppose I should have said, potentially the more interesting, &c. -- if true. And your objections on etymological grounds include a couple of "probable" and "may be" hedges. So, objection sustained -- if true. I really wouldn't presume to know; and I have no ambition whatever to arbitrate linguistic arguments among Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic, Italic or other specialists, in something or other.

    What interests me about the theoretical concept is that a variety of cultures, many of which spoke some IE language, may have had cognate terms for "those foreigners who arrive now and then in boats." Because I think that must have happened; and it seems kind of logical for lots of distantly related groups to have had a word for it. Occasionally, perhaps, pretty much the same word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodisk View Post
    Ich can say you why in corsica and sardinia were so much R1b-U152. Because when corsica would a part of france, many french people come to corsica.

    The demography of the native-corsican is very bad, so the genes of the french (with most R1b-U152) are dominant of corsica. Its fact.
    A friend of my parents is a real corsican (with french ancestors) and his wife a austrian. So many corsican with french ancestors, live on corsica.
    The statistics about the haplogroup distribution are from the new-time.
    So do you understand what i want so say?

    How exact it is on sardinia, i dont know. But i think we must include modern migrations, because all the haplogroup statistics, dont exclude this migrations f.e. since the 18. century.
    sorry but it is naive:
    if modern Corsicans have a lot of French or other foreign genes, it almost exclusively byt the mother's lines - they keep even today their italian surnames and Corsicans are most patrilienar than the contrary and very patriarcal too - If ancestral origins are taken in account in DNA surveys and I think they are, so the Y-DNA of the island is as a whole a genuine enough corsican one -
    and metrics surveys about the 1930-1940's proved that the corsican population ot these times was very original: dolichocephalic (IC-76 from 73 tà 78 depending on regions) when France was 83 as a mean with maxima about 87-88..., minimals being in french Roussillon-Rossilyô (Catalunia): 78-80, and Perigord-Dordogne 78-80 -
    the high frequence of very brown eyes (uncommon enough among Frenchies) and true black hair is to be linked to this dolichocephaly ('mediterranean' influence), even if light and middle hues (dark blond: 4-5%, dark brown principally, blue eyes 8-9% and dark green-brownish eyes principally) are not uncommon, the principal dark componant is different from the dominant dark one on the continent, France or in some way Italy -

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I suppose I should have said, potentially the more interesting, &c. -- if true. And your objections on etymological grounds include a couple of "probable" and "may be" hedges. So, objection sustained -- if true. I really wouldn't presume to know; and I have no ambition whatever to arbitrate linguistic arguments among Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic, Italic or other specialists, in something or other.
    To be honest, I have raised those personal objections only because I cannot provide you (offhand, anyways) with quotable sources. For instance, you can look up the term "Fení" in literature (or in a dictionary of Old Irish) and I can also provide you with a paper on the etymology of "Venicones" (Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies 29, 1982, p. 87), but I couldn't offhand think of a quotable source that endorses my etymologies. I can get back to that, however.

    What interests me about the theoretical concept is that a variety of cultures, many of which spoke some IE language, may have had cognate terms for "those foreigners who arrive now and then in boats." Because I think that must have happened; and it seems kind of logical for lots of distantly related groups to have had a word for it. Occasionally, perhaps, pretty much the same word.
    As I have demonstrated, there's no particular reason to assume it really is the same word. Especially, to pick up the example, the Baltic Venedi of Antiquity and the Wends of the Medieval ages were clearly two different people. Also the connection as "foreigners who arrived by sea" clearly isn't the case with the West Slavic Wends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That is a very entertaining and educative example, Moesan. This is because it is wrong on multiple levels. starts out the term "Phoenicians" is a Greek exonym. Apart from absolutely unconceivable sound changes, the initial premise is completely wrong: the Phoenicians refered to themselves as something akin to "Kana'anim" (ie, "Canaanites", after their homeland of Canaan)!
    thanks to have precised what I had omitted: the very first premice of this chain of hazardous comparisons was based on an external naming (exonyme) that never was employed by true Phoenicians! (error at 2 different logical levels)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    the connection as "foreigners who arrived by sea" clearly isn't the case with the West Slavic Wends.
    I said "in boats," not "by sea," so I don't know what your quotation marks have to do with this. (Another guy said something earlier about the sea, but not this.) Anyway, y'all enjoy arguing with each other, and I wouldn't dream of interfering. Even that is interesting, in a pedantic sort of way.

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    I think that if one wants to have a look at gallic genes in Veneto.. one has to look at Carni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni
    Venetic people were for sure not gallic..

    The Carni are the ancestors of Slovenes and some southern Austrians

    As for the Triveneto, they populated all Friuli and the eastern part of modern veneto:
    "They received then the permission to populate and colonize the plain between the Julian pre-Alps and the Livenza river they had already tried to occupy previously in conflict with both the Romans and Veneti."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You may call me a sceptic, but I think there's really no connection between these. You just take superficially similar-sounding names out of context and assume a connection:

    Veneti (Armorican tribe)
    Veneti (Adriatic tribe/ethnic group)
    Vandali (East Germanic tribe)
    Venedi (Germanic exonym for Baltic? tribes)
    Wends (German exonym for West Slavic tribes)
    Vyatichi (Slavic tribe)

    The last name is not even superficially similar.
    "Vyatichi" is actually the East Slavic denazalized rendition of something like VENT-ICHI. There are many examples of such. Off the top of my head I can remember Porphyrogenitos' "Sventostlabos" (the historical /later history/ "Svyatoslav" et sim. Acc. to the old Kyivan chronicle, these VYATICHI/VENTICHI were migrants "from the Lyakhs" (=Poland by most interpreters). Baltic Venedi? Who knows? Belorusan archaeologist Nosevych might be sympathetic to such a view, but it's a tricky thing indeed. There is a river Venta in Latvia. Is there also one in Poland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You may call me a sceptic, but I think there's really no connection between these. You just take superficially similar-sounding names out of context and assume a connection:

    Veneti (Armorican tribe)
    Veneti (Adriatic tribe/ethnic group)
    Vandali (East Germanic tribe)
    Venedi (Germanic exonym for Baltic? tribes)
    Wends (German exonym for West Slavic tribes)
    Vyatichi (Slavic tribe)

    The last name is not even superficially similar. I'm not blaming either of your for this, particular because people suggested this before, but I think the similarity is really superficial.

    Especially if you think about etymologies:

    In regard for Armorican Veneti, you can draw a probable link with the Celtic root *wen- meaning "freeman", "compatriot", found for example in the British tribal name "Venicones" or the Old Irish term "Féni" ("Irishmen", "compatriots").

    The term "Vandali" may be related with the English term "to wander". It should be pointed out that the difference between "wand-" and "wend-" is a big one, especially because both words occur in the Germanic context, and because the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is clearly applied as an exonym (on Baltic peoples in Antiquity, on West Slavs in the Medieval Ages).

    I mean, it's really tempting to assume a connection when you see similar sounding names, there's no point in denying that, but, how can you prove there's a connection?
    you forgot Venetae which if you read the lithuanian history going backwards from the middle ages, reads that they comprised of the
    livs = livonians
    ests = estonians
    kars = curonians
    lats = latvians
    sambians = prussians
    samogitians = prussians
    and others
    all these are named as Venetae from only 600AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I said "in boats," not "by sea," so I don't know what your quotation marks have to do with this. (Another guy said something earlier about the sea, but not this.) Anyway, y'all enjoy arguing with each other, and I wouldn't dream of interfering. Even that is interesting, in a pedantic sort of way.
    I stated that Venetus is Roman for blue and green sea colour, and also Roman word of Venire which mean to come or have come from.
    So veneti in Roman documents would mean , having come from the sea.

    There is also Lacus Venetus ( Lake Constance), either named due to its size and roman thinking it was the sea, OR as recently stated, the lake of the Veneti

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    I think that if one wants to have a look at gallic genes in Veneto.. one has to look at Carni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni
    Venetic people were for sure not gallic..

    The Carni are the ancestors of Slovenes and some southern Austrians

    As for the Triveneto, they populated all Friuli and the eastern part of modern veneto:
    "They received then the permission to populate and colonize the plain between the Julian pre-Alps and the Livenza river they had already tried to occupy previously in conflict with both the Romans and Veneti."
    Recent Italian studies ( and I am waiting for written report) is that the Vindelica, raeti and veneti where one major Alpine group , who was divided by the invasion of the Carni and Taurisci from modern Switzerland. The taurisci ended up in Noricum ( near Vienna) and the carni went down the Alps dividing italy from Slovenia ( old name - Montes Venetus, later called julian alps in Roman times).
    The Carni as you say settled in friuli and western slovenia.
    The taurini another name for taurisci invaded piemont at the same time ( this is prior the celtic invasion)

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    dna, IIRC the Armonica veneti and adriatic veneti share M253, unsure on the baltic venedi

    In regards to Vandals, I keep reading they where originally scandinavian people who settled in east germany and created a confederation called Vindili, these comprised of goths, burgundians, heruli, rugii, lombards, gepids, lugii, cotini

    germanic tribes.jpg


    Norse name was Venr as a tribal people, there is talk about early norse wanderings into Armorica

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    "Vyatichi" is actually the East Slavic denazalized rendition of something like VENT-ICHI. There are many examples of such. Off the top of my head I can remember Porphyrogenitos' "Sventostlabos" (the historical /later history/ "Svyatoslav" et sim. Acc. to the old Kyivan chronicle, these VYATICHI/VENTICHI were migrants "from the Lyakhs" (=Poland by most interpreters). Baltic Venedi? Who knows? Belorusan archaeologist Nosevych might be sympathetic to such a view, but it's a tricky thing indeed. There is a river Venta in Latvia. Is there also one in Poland?
    the issue with the venedi being slavic is very very sceptical because they where only recored from 375BC to 200AD when they where assilimilated into gothic society/armies and basically disappeared as a tribe .

    further reading says they became the Vidivarii

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii

    something from Jordanes, which I do not believe, but these Vidivarii ended up being the baltic prussians

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    also note that the Veneti where also noted as illyrian by herodus or still from trojan lands. There is a gap between 1187BC end of trojan war and the latest venetic finds from 1025BC

    Publius Vergilius Maro (15.10.70 – 21.9.19 B.C.)

    Antenor potuit mediis elapsus AchivisIllyrios penetrare sinus atque intima tutusregna Liburnorum et fontem superare Timavi.

    Antenor escaped from the midst of the Greeks, has been able safe to penetrate the Illyrian bays and the inmost realms of the Liburnians and to pass beyond the fountain of Timavus


    Illyridos penetrare sinus”. Antenor non Illyricum, non Liburniam,sed Venetiam tenuit. Ideo autem Vergilius dicit “Illyricos sinus”, quod inde venit quidamHenetus rex, qui Venetiam tenuit, a cuius nomine Henetiam dictam posteri Venetiam nominaverunt
    “To penetrate the Illyrian bays”. Antenor was not headed for Illyria, nor for Liburnia,but for Venetia. This is why Virgil says: “Illyrian bays”, because from that came a certain king Henetus who took Venetia, that has the name Henetia from him that was named by later people venetia

    Romans mention Tropaeum Alpium and the 45 alpine tribes.

    page 543 notes the towns in modern bavaria which where called Passau and Pons Aeni to name 2 . Passau was later changed to boiodurum and it was stated in 15BC , publicum portorium illyrici

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...passau&f=false

    In regards to Illyrians, the more I read, the more I see this an unlikely name of these people. My guess is that it refers to a form similar to Italians. In that when delving into Roman detail, they have Illyrians which are
    north west = Luburnians
    west = Dalmatians
    east = Pannonians
    south = Dardanians


    EDIT: quotes from here
    http://www.mek.oszk.hu/05100/05110/05110.pdf

    this deals with raeti, etruscan, venetian languages, migrations of these peoples , dna and a lot more
    its a good read even though its 167 pages
    also deals with southern germanic languages
    Last edited by zanipolo; 18-02-12 at 11:16.

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    here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.

    SAINTDATA:Columban, abbot and missioner, Born in Leinster (Ireland), c. 540; d.at Bobbio, Italy, 640; feast day 23 November. [*Note that, despiteJonas' assertion that Columban was also known as "Columba",he is distinct from St. Columba, founder of Iona, born in 521, d.597, and whose feast day is June 9.]





    56.

    OnceColumban though going to the land of the Wends, who are also called Slavs, in order to illuminate their darkened minds with the light ofthe Gospel and to open the way of truth to those who had alwayswandered in error. When he proposed to make his vows, the angel ofthe Lord appeared to him in a vision, and showed him in a littlecircle the structure of the world, just as the circle of the universeis usually, drawn with a pen in a book. "You perceive," theangel said, "how much remains set apart of the whole world. Goto the right or the left where you will, that you may enjoy thefruits of your labors." Therefore Columban remained where hewas, until the way to Italy opened before him.




    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.



    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp
    this is in the wrong thread..please remove and place in correct thread

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    zanipolo why is this in the wrong thread? the thread is about

    Sorry, I meant U152 present in Poland, as per map. It will be interesting getting subclades for Venice area and Poland to see if there are matching ones. When you look at Normandy, second map, there is also a Celtic tribe called Veneti. We might had same celtic/sea fairing tribe in 3 places: Venice, Normandy, and Poland; all by the sea. If we can find same subclade of U152 in 3 of them, then bingo!
    i am just saying that the connection is slavic not celtic.

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