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Thread: North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

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    These kind of population genetics are crap, in this case specifically he's probably finding the visigoths and berbers in africa, not africans in europe.

    There are even a few people who seem to believe the irish came from north africa if you can believe it.

    You can't take these too seriously because the reference populations make very huge assumptions about what an african or european is and gets easily foiled by selection, too.

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    Some North Africans like Riffian are very similar to Europe Ethnic

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    Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

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    Interesting. thanks for the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euskadi View Post
    It is also interesting to note that the distribution of North African admixture in Iberia in Dodecad/K12b is similar to what was found by Adams et al. 2008 (The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula at .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/?tool=pmcentrez) and also reflects the distibution of E-M81 (berber) haplogroup


    1) E-M81 distribution calculated by Adams et al. 2008

    Castile, NorthWest 100 10.00%
    Andalucia, West 73 9.59%
    Portugal, South 78 7.69%
    Galicia 88 9.09%
    Extremadura 52 7.69%
    Valencia 73 4.11%
    Portugal, North 60 3.33%
    Castile, NorthEast 31 3.23%
    Aragon 34 2.94%
    Andalucia, East 95 2.11%
    Castile, La Mancha 63 1.59%
    Catalonia 80 1.25%
    Basques 116 0.86%
    Asturias 20 0.00%


    2) North African admixture calculated by Adams et al. 2008


    Iberian region %NW African male admixture
    Castile, NorthWest 21.7%
    Galicia 20.8%
    Extremadura 19%
    Andalucia, West 16.7%
    Portugal, South 16.1%
    Valencia 12.8%
    Portugal, North 11.8%
    Asturias 10.5%
    Castile, NorthEast 9.3%
    Majorca 6.6%
    Aragon 4.8%
    Ibiza 3.8%
    Andalucia, East 2.4%
    Catalonia 2.3%
    Castilla 0.9%
    Historical reasons for high North African admixture in Galicia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Historical reasons for high North African admixture in Galicia?
    Or Cantabria, or Asturias. The pattern for African DNA frequencies in Iberia does not follow historical events. This has been noticed many times, including Eupedia itself. The people who should have the most (southerners) actually have less of it than people who should have less of it (westerners), thus strongly suggesting that African DNA in Iberia is due to older events. Also, autosomal studies that have actually bothered to estimate a time-frame for this DNA in Iberia have found it to be from pre-Islamic times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Or Cantabria, or Asturias. The pattern for African DNA frequencies in Iberia does not follow historical events. This has been noticed many times, including Eupedia itself. The people who should have the most (southerners) actually have less of it than people who should have less of it (westerners), thus strongly suggesting that African DNA in Iberia is due to older events. Also, autosomal studies that have actually bothered to estimate a time-frame for this DNA in Iberia have found it to be from pre-Islamic times.
    Ok, pre-Islamic times but when? Were these haplogroups (North African admixture) part of Iberian ethnos?

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    Asturians have much less NA admixture than most of Iberians, Cantabria as well except for the Pasiegos but they are an ethnic group.
    You must read the differences between Spanish_North and other Spanish in the Haak et al. paper.
    Notice the differences between West and East Andalucia, the east part (Granada) had a repopulation and it's showing in these admixtures.
    Anyway probably some admixture arrived during the Carthaginian era and pre-historical era, notice that some parts of south Europe are close geographically to North Africa, Gibraltar is more or less 10 km.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Ok, pre-Islamic times but when? Were these haplogroups (North African admixture) part of Iberian ethnos?
    the only event I could think of is the spread of cattle through North-Africa which could have continued into Iberia, but that would have been some 8000 years ago

    people from Carthago never got that far north/northwest as Cantabria or Asturias

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    In Cruciani et al 2004, the frequency of African marker E-M81 was 41% among Pasiegos from Cantabria. That's the highest frequency found so far in Europe.

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    Asturians in Adams et al table have 0% of M81 though and the peak in Cantabria is in the Pasiegos who are an ethnic population with unknown origins afaik, ohterwise ethnic Cantabrias have less NA admixture.
    Anyway for Iberian peninsula there is more like a west-east gradient thant north-south.

    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasiego

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    In Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012 the frequency of E-M81 in Cantabria is 5.5%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    In Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012 the frequency of E-M81 in Cantabria is 5.5%.
    Without Pasiegos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Without Pasiegos?
    Probably yes, because the neighbouring regions of Bizkaia and Burgos have also 5-6% of E-M81 in the same study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Ok, pre-Islamic times but when? Were these haplogroups (North African admixture) part of Iberian ethnos?
    Moorjani et al. 2011 estimate shows it to be several centuries older, and Lazaridis et al. 2013 estimate anywhere between a few centuries to even as much as a few thousand years before Islam even existed. Its presence in Iberia is very likely prehistoric with some later contribution closer to Carthaginian/Roman times. So very little of it could be due to Islamic times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Moorjani et al. 2011 estimate shows it to be several centuries older, and Lazaridis et al. 2013 estimate anywhere between a few centuries to even as much as a few thousand years before Islam even existed. Its presence in Iberia is very likely prehistoric with some later contribution closer to Carthaginian/Roman times. So very little of it could be due to Islamic times.
    So do for you Romans imported Berber slaves in ancient Iberia?
    About Carthaginians, they were Phoenicians transplanted in northern coast of Tunisia, not a Berber civilization, so they carried some J and some West Asian admixture more than North African and M81 marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    So do for you Romans imported Berber slaves in ancient Iberia?
    About Carthaginians, they were Phoenicians transplanted in northern coast of Tunisia, not a Berber civilization, so they carried some J and some West Asian admixture more than North African and M81 marker.
    Either that or the Roman armies carried some of them into Iberia, like they also brought some of them to the British Isles (presence of North Africans in Roman-era Britain has been confirmed by both written evidence as well as archaeological evidence.)

    Since the Carthaginians are known to have recruited locals for their armies wherever they went to, I have little doubt that some of them must have been native Berbers. Their armies in Europe were in fact largely made up of local Iberian and Celtic/Celtiberian recruits and mercenaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the only event I could think of is the spread of cattle through North-Africa which could have continued into Iberia, but that would have been some 8000 years ago

    people from Carthago never got that far north/northwest as Cantabria or Asturias
    Thanks, so basically can we say that were part of Iberian ethnos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Thanks, so basically can we say that were part of Iberian ethnos?
    Part of the ancient gene pool of Iberia, yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Part of the ancient gene pool of Iberia, yes.
    Ok, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Without Pasiegos?
    More data I've found.

    Frequency of E-M81 in Cantabria (ouside of Pasiegos)
    .

    16.7% (n=6/36) Maca-Meyer 2003.
    5.56% (n=1/18) Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012
    10.56% (n=17/161) Brion et al.

    Total E-M81 in Cantabria (ouside of Pasiegos) = 11,16%

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    We have ancient farmer DNA from Anatolia who seemed to have some ~20% NW African type DNA additional to 65% Atlantic_Med and 14% Caucasus. I think this is the best indication that some of this "NW African" admixture in Iberia represent a EEF type ancestry which both NW Africans and Iberians share from their EEF ancestry. Galicia having highest frequency of NW African doesn't actually mean it received most NW African DNA, it simply means it has most farmer DNA which some of it they share with modern NW Africans.
    Last edited by Alan; 08-07-15 at 03:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Part of the ancient gene pool of Iberia, yes.
    Well yes and no: Historical sources state that there was substantial Berber settlements in Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia, and in Valencia-Murcia region. This happend in two periods: 1) After the Muslim occupation the Berbers were initially given the northern areas to settle (Castlile-Leon, Basque Country, and Galicia). The Berbers hated this area because it was wet and had extreme climates and they were isolated, and they were constantly attacked by the Visigoths (afterwards "Christians"). Therefore after Berber Revolt of 739-743 (which almost overthrew the Arabs of Andalusia) a settlement was made in which the Berbers were given lands in the SW and SE of the Iberian peninsula. BUT many Berbers stayed in the North (Galicia and Leon) and later converted to Christianity. So this could explain to a certain extent the Berber marker in the Northwest. As a compromise the Syrians (who had defeated the Berbers) gave the Berbers lands around Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia and Southern Valencia. 2) The second period was under the Almoravid and Almohad invasions, which were composed of mainly Berbers. The Berbers increased the numbers of settlers in the same regions. HOWEVER, during the early 13th century almost all the Berbers were ethnically cleansed either by extermination and/or expulsion (by choice and forced). Therefore the Berber marker does show some correlation in Galicia-Leon, in Western Andalusia, and in Valencia.
    Last edited by Johannes; 08-07-15 at 03:20.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Historical reasons for high North African admixture in Galicia?
    Of course the Romans could have brought some Berbers into Iberia but its unlikely they were numerous. It is known that the Carthaginians/Phoenicians did recruit Berbers into Hannibal's Army but they fought mainly in Italy.

    These studies are probably flawed in that they use too few samples to make a true reflection of the race mixing. 11.8% to 21.7% seems too high for the west and northwest (even for Valencia it is high). The first Adams test seems more accurate 7.69%-10%. But we need to remember that some of this is from prehistorical times and some from the Muslim invasions. How much is one over the other we will never know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    Moorjani et al. 2011 estimate shows it to be several centuries older, and Lazaridis et al. 2013 estimate anywhere between a few centuries to even as much as a few thousand years before Islam even existed. Its presence in Iberia is very likely prehistoric with some later contribution closer to Carthaginian/Roman times. So very little of it could be due to Islamic times.
    YES and NO. Even though most the Berbers were ethnically cleansed during the Reconquista many stayed and converted to Christianity and lived in their traditional regions, i.e., Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia, and Valencia-Murcia. Also many Berbers in the northwest converted to Christianity after they were captured by the Visigoths during the 750's (after the Berber Revolt). SO THEY DID CONTRIBUTE to the Iberian DNA but we do not know how much. I will guess its 50% prehistoric and 50% Muslim.
    Last edited by Johannes; 08-07-15 at 03:16.

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