K12b North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

[Hauteville]

Moorjani et al. 2011 estimate shows it to be several centuries older, and Lazaridis et al. 2013 estimate anywhere between a few centuries to even as much as a few thousand years before Islam even existed. Its presence in Iberia is very likely prehistoric with some later contribution closer to Carthaginian/Roman times. So very little of it could be due to Islamic times.

So do for you Romans imported Berber slaves in ancient Iberia?
About Carthaginians, they were Phoenicians transplanted in northern coast of Tunisia, not a Berber civilization, so they carried some J and some West Asian admixture more than North African and M81 marker.

 

[Drac II]

So do for you Romans imported Berber slaves in ancient Iberia?
About Carthaginians, they were Phoenicians transplanted in northern coast of Tunisia, not a Berber civilization, so they carried some J and some West Asian admixture more than North African and M81 marker.

Either that or the Roman armies carried some of them into Iberia, like they also brought some of them to the British Isles (presence of North Africans in Roman-era Britain has been confirmed by both written evidence as well as archaeological evidence.)

Since the Carthaginians are known to have recruited locals for their armies wherever they went to, I have little doubt that some of them must have been native Berbers. Their armies in Europe were in fact largely made up of local Iberian and Celtic/Celtiberian recruits and mercenaries.

 

[Pax Augusta]

the only event I could think of is the spread of cattle through North-Africa which could have continued into Iberia, but that would have been some 8000 years ago

people from Carthago never got that far north/northwest as Cantabria or Asturias

Thanks, so basically can we say that were part of Iberian ethnos?

 

[Drac II]

Thanks, so basically can we say that were part of Iberian ethnos?

Part of the ancient gene pool of Iberia, yes.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Part of the ancient gene pool of Iberia, yes.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Vukodav]

Without Pasiegos?

More data I've found.

Frequency of E-M81 in Cantabria (ouside of Pasiegos)
.

16.7% (n=6/36) Maca-Meyer 2003.
5.56% (n=1/18) Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012
10.56% (n=17/161) Brion et al.

Total E-M81 in Cantabria (ouside of Pasiegos) = 11,16%

 

[Alan]

We have ancient farmer DNA from Anatolia who seemed to have some ~20% NW African type DNA additional to 65% Atlantic_Med and 14% Caucasus. I think this is the best indication that some of this "NW African" admixture in Iberia represent a EEF type ancestry which both NW Africans and Iberians share from their EEF ancestry. Galicia having highest frequency of NW African doesn't actually mean it received most NW African DNA, it simply means it has most farmer DNA which some of it they share with modern NW Africans.

 

[Johannes]

Part of the ancient gene pool of Iberia, yes.

Well yes and no: Historical sources state that there was substantial Berber settlements in Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia, and in Valencia-Murcia region. This happend in two periods: 1) After the Muslim occupation the Berbers were initially given the northern areas to settle (Castlile-Leon, Basque Country, and Galicia). The Berbers hated this area because it was wet and had extreme climates and they were isolated, and they were constantly attacked by the Visigoths (afterwards "Christians"). Therefore after Berber Revolt of 739-743 (which almost overthrew the Arabs of Andalusia) a settlement was made in which the Berbers were given lands in the SW and SE of the Iberian peninsula. BUT many Berbers stayed in the North (Galicia and Leon) and later converted to Christianity. So this could explain to a certain extent the Berber marker in the Northwest. As a compromise the Syrians (who had defeated the Berbers) gave the Berbers lands around Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia and Southern Valencia. 2) The second period was under the Almoravid and Almohad invasions, which were composed of mainly Berbers. The Berbers increased the numbers of settlers in the same regions. HOWEVER, during the early 13th century almost all the Berbers were ethnically cleansed either by extermination and/or expulsion (by choice and forced). Therefore the Berber marker does show some correlation in Galicia-Leon, in Western Andalusia, and in Valencia.

 

[Johannes]

Historical reasons for high North African admixture in Galicia?

Of course the Romans could have brought some Berbers into Iberia but its unlikely they were numerous. It is known that the Carthaginians/Phoenicians did recruit Berbers into Hannibal's Army but they fought mainly in Italy.

These studies are probably flawed in that they use too few samples to make a true reflection of the race mixing. 11.8% to 21.7% seems too high for the west and northwest (even for Valencia it is high). The first Adams test seems more accurate 7.69%-10%. But we need to remember that some of this is from prehistorical times and some from the Muslim invasions. How much is one over the other we will never know.

 

[Johannes]

Moorjani et al. 2011 estimate shows it to be several centuries older, and Lazaridis et al. 2013 estimate anywhere between a few centuries to even as much as a few thousand years before Islam even existed. Its presence in Iberia is very likely prehistoric with some later contribution closer to Carthaginian/Roman times. So very little of it could be due to Islamic times.

YES and NO. Even though most the Berbers were ethnically cleansed during the Reconquista many stayed and converted to Christianity and lived in their traditional regions, i.e., Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia, and Valencia-Murcia. Also many Berbers in the northwest converted to Christianity after they were captured by the Visigoths during the 750's (after the Berber Revolt). SO THEY DID CONTRIBUTE to the Iberian DNA but we do not know how much. I will guess its 50% prehistoric and 50% Muslim.

 

[Johannes]

We have ancient farmer DNA from Anatolia who seemed to have some ~20% NW African type DNA additional to 65% Atlantic_Med and 14% Caucasus. I think this is the best indication that some of this "NW African" admixture in Iberia represent a EEF type ancestry which both NW Africans and Iberians share from their EEF ancestry. Galicia having highest frequency of NW African doesn't actually mean it received most NW African DNA, it simply means it has most pre Indo European farmer DNA which some of it they share with modern NW Africans.

That is correct. According to a new EUROGENES study of the Allentoft and Haak ADMIXTURE analysis Algerians, Moroccans, and Tunisians have 34%, 27%, and 40% EEF/WHG DNA. So some of it must have gone into the Iberian Peninsula and beyond.

 

[Drac II]

Well yes and no: Historical sources state that there was substantial Berber settlements in Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia, and in Valencia-Murcia region. This happend in two periods: 1) After the Muslim occupation the Berbers were initially given the northern areas to settle (Castlile-Leon, Basque Country, and Galicia). The Berbers hated this area because it was wet and had extreme climates and they were isolated, and they were constantly attacked by the Visigoths (afterwards "Christians"). Therefore after Berber Revolt of 739-743 (which almost overthrew the Arabs of Andalusia) a settlement was made in which the Berbers were given lands in the SW and SE of the Iberian peninsula. BUT many Berbers stayed in the North (Galicia and Leon) and later converted to Christianity. So this could explain to a certain extent the Berber marker in the Northwest. As a compromise the Syrians (who had defeated the Berbers) gave the Berbers lands around Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia and Southern Valencia. 2) The second period was under the Almoravid and Almohad invasions, which were composed of mainly Berbers. The Berbers increased the numbers of settlers in the same regions. HOWEVER, during the early 13th century almost all the Berbers were ethnically cleansed either by extermination and/or expulsion (by choice and forced). Therefore the Berber marker does show some correlation in Galicia-Leon, in Western Andalusia, and in Valencia.

There is no evidence of any significant Berber settlement in places like Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, areas that hardly had any contact with Muslims. The "Reconquista" itself was initiated in this part of Spain. So no, there is hardly much historical correlation with the distribution of this DNA in Spain.

Valencia is on the eastern part of Spain, and it also has less of it than the western part of Iberia.

Plus the Arabs and Berbers were only like 5% of the population of Iberia, even if all of them had permanently settled in the western parts it would hardly correlate with some of these frequencies. Any way you look at it, there is hardly any correlation.

 

[Drac II]

YES and NO. Even though most the Berbers were ethnically cleansed during the Reconquista many stayed and converted to Christianity and lived in their traditional regions, i.e., Southern Portugal, Western Andalusia, and Valencia-Murcia. Also many Berbers in the northwest converted to Christianity after they were captured by the Visigoths during the 750's (after the Berber Revolt). SO THEY DID CONTRIBUTE to the Iberian DNA but we do not know how much. I will guess its 50% prehistoric and 50% Muslim.

Your "guess" is contradicted by both history and genetics.

 

[Drac II]

Of course the Romans could have brought some Berbers into Iberia but its unlikely they were numerous. It is known that the Carthaginians/Phoenicians did recruit Berbers into Hannibal's Army but they fought mainly in Italy.

These studies are probably flawed in that they use too few samples to make a true reflection of the race mixing. 11.8% to 21.7% seems too high for the west and northwest (even for Valencia it is high). The first Adams test seems more accurate 7.69%-10%. But we need to remember that some of this is from prehistorical times and some from the Muslim invasions. How much is one over the other we will never know.

Adams et al. made a bunch of unwarranted assumptions (it assumed that basically anything that wasn't R1b must be due to "Jews" and "Moors", which is utterly ridiculous and they were criticized for it), plus they too used very small samples for some regions, thus giving a skewed view of the matter. Such things can be corrected to a degree by "pooling" the samples from other studies, giving a more accurate picture.

 

[Sile]

There is no evidence of any significant Berber settlement in places like Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, areas that hardly had any contact with Muslims. The "Reconquista" itself was initiated in this part of Spain. So no, there is hardly much historical correlation with the distribution of this DNA in Spain.

Valencia is on the eastern part of Spain, and it also has less of it than the western part of Iberia.

Plus the Arabs and Berbers were only like 5% of the population of Iberia, even if all of them had permanently settled in the western parts it would hardly correlate with some of these frequencies. Any way you look at it, there is hardly any correlation.

The biggest Carthagian city excluding Carthage , was new Carthage in Spain

 

[Johannes]

There is no evidence of any significant Berber settlement in places like Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, areas that hardly had any contact with Muslims. The "Reconquista" itself was initiated in this part of Spain. So no, there is hardly much historical correlation with the distribution of this DNA in Spain.

Valencia is on the eastern part of Spain, and it also has less of it than the western part of Iberia.

Plus the Arabs and Berbers were only like 5% of the population of Iberia, even if all of them had permanently settled in the western parts it would hardly correlate with some of these frequencies. Any way you look at it, there is hardly any correlation.

Why don't you pay attention? I never said Asturias or Cantabria or any substantial Berber settlement in the NW! After the Muslim invasion the Berbers were given garrison duty in Galicia, Castile-Leon and Basque Country/Navarre (they were protecting the northern frontier against attack by the Goths, Cantabrians, and Basques). They lived there for only 20-25 years with their families and then got fed up with the climate, constant attacks by Goths, maltreatment by the Arabs, and left to topple the Arabs. Of course the vast majority of the Berbers left with the three Berber Armies (one to conquer Merida and Cordova, another to take Toledo, and third to take Almeria). But many stayed, especially the mountain herders. They eventually converted to Christianity. They were not very numerous but if you imagine how the towns and cities were being repopulated at that time, the Berbers would have impacted on the DNA to a certain extent. The only big cities were Leon and Pamplona. So if you can imagine the race mixing that occured after the resettlement of Christians in the Duero Valley, then it would have added several percentage points to the Iberian DNA.

I know you have read some books that I am not aware of since its been almost two decades since I did my research but I do remember that the Berber population was 20% of the Muslim polpulation in Iberia. If we imagine 1/3 of the population was free of Muslim control and the 2/3 in Al-Andalus (and 80% converted to Islam), this will make 1.5-1.7 millions in the north and 2.5-3.3 millions in Al-Andalus if we use 4-5 million people during the 8th to 11th centuries. Thus the Berber population would have been about 500,000-660,000 in southern Iberia (southern Portugal, western Andalusia, and Valencia). Thus they would have impacted the Iberian DNA but to a limited extent (of course the Berbers were hated and looked down by European Muslims and Arabs as second-class citizens and the Berbers stuck to themselves and lived far apart from Europeans and Arabs, never the less they would have mixed to a certain extent. How much we don't know).

 

[Drac II]

Why don't you pay attention? I never said Asturias or Cantabria or any substantial Berber settlement in the NW! After the Muslim invasion the Berbers were given garrison duty in Galicia, Castile-Leon and Basque Country/Navarre (they were protecting the northern frontier against attack by the Goths, Cantabrians, and Basques). They lived there for only 20-25 years with their families and then got fed up with the climate, constant attacks by Goths, maltreatment by the Arabs, and left to topple the Arabs. Of course the vast majority of the Berbers left with the three Berber Armies (one to conquer Merida and Cordova, another to take Toledo, and third to take Almeria). But many stayed, especially the mountain herders. They eventually converted to Christianity. They were not very numerous but if you imagine how the towns and cities were being repopulated at that time, the Berbers would have impacted on the DNA to a certain extent. The only big cities were Leon and Pamplona. So if you can imagine the race mixing that occured after the resettlement of Christians in the Duero Valley, then it would have added several percentage points to the Iberian DNA.

I know you have read some books that I am not aware of since its been almost two decades since I did my research but I do remember that the Berber population was 20% of the Muslim polpulation in Iberia. If we imagine 1/3 of the population was free of Muslim control and the 2/3 in Al-Andalus (and 80% converted to Islam), this will make 1.5-1.7 millions in the north and 2.5-3.3 millions in Al-Andalus if we use 4-5 million people during the 8th to 11th centuries. Thus the Berber population would have been about 500,000-660,000 in southern Iberia (southern Portugal, western Andalusia, and Valencia). Thus they would have impacted the Iberian DNA but to a limited extent (of course the Berbers were hated and looked down by European Muslims and Arabs as second-class citizens and the Berbers stuck to themselves and lived far apart from Europeans and Arabs, never the less they would have mixed to a certain extent. How much we don't know).

The Duero region hardly has much to do with Galicia, Asturias or Cantabria, it is mostly in Castile and Leon. And I also doubt that there was a significant presence of Berbers around there too. As you said yourself, the Berbers were needed in other parts of Iberia due to frequent conflicts, whether caused by Christians ("Mozarabs", in other words, Christians living in nominally Muslim areas, and those coming from the north as "reconquerors"), the Arab aristocracy and its struggles to secure nominal control, or the "Muwalladun" uprisings (i.e. Iberian Muslim groups declaring their independence from the Caliphate.)

Also, "race-mixing" in this case is rather a misnomer. Berbers are Caucasians.

The 5% figure I mentioned earlier would be for both Arabs and Berbers compared to the whole native population of Iberia ("Mozarabs" living in Muslim-controlled territories, northern independent Christians, and the local "Muwalladun", i.e. converts to Islam.)

 

[Drac II]

The biggest Carthagian city excluding Carthage , was new Carthage in Spain

Cartagena is on the shores of Murcia, nothing to do with the north, and "New Carthage" was the name the Romans gave the city after it was conquered less than 20 years after its foundation.

 

[Johannes]

The Duero region hardly has much to do with Galicia, Asturias or Cantabria, it is mostly in Castile and Leon. And I also doubt that there was a significant presence of Berbers around there too. As you said yourself, the Berbers were needed in other parts of Iberia due to frequent conflicts, whether caused by Christians ("Mozarabs", in other words, Christians living in nominally Muslim areas, and those coming from the north as "reconquerors"), the Arab aristocracy and its struggles to secure nominal control, or the "Muwalladun" uprisings (i.e. Iberian Muslim groups declaring their independence from the Caliphate.)

Also, "race-mixing" in this case is rather a misnomer. Berbers are Caucasians.

The 5% figure I mentioned earlier would be for both Arabs and Berbers compared to the whole native population of Iberia ("Mozarabs" living in Muslim-controlled territories, northern independent Christians, and the local "Muwalladun", i.e. converts to Islam.)

5% is way too low. Where do you get this figure??? Do you have documentation? 20% is more closer to the truth. I know I am using my memory on this but I believe Collins and Fletcher mentioned the percentage of Bebers in Spain and it was not 5%. But I found a source that confirms what I said: "In the power hierarchy, Berbers were situated between the Arabic aristocracy and the Muladi populace. Ethnic rivalry was one of the most important factors driving Andalusi politics. Berbers made up as much as 20% of the population of the occupied territory.^[49] After the fall of the Caliphate, the Taifa kingdoms of Toledo, Badajoz, Málaga and Granada had Berber rulers.^{[citation needed]} During the Reconquista, Berbers in the areas which became Christian kingdoms were acculturated and lost their ethnic identity, their descendants being among modern Spanish and Portuguese peoples." I got this from Wikipedia but you shuold check out Collins and Fletcher and let me know. There is also a new book you should check: "The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain," by Abdulwahid Dhanun Taha.

During the invasion of Iberia the Berbers did not constitute no more than perhaps 20,000 warriors and their families. But during the Emirate and the Caliphate their numbers grew. I am also sure during the Almoravid-Almohad invasions even more Berbers entered and settled in Iberia. So 500,000 sounds about right. Morocco and Algeria are very close to Spain and Portugal. The Berbers hated the Spanish Muslims and Arabs and so they settled in areas far away from them that had been deserted by Christians (mainly SW and SE Iberia). Then their conversion to Christianity during the 13th century would have added the Berber marker in these areas.

 

[Drac II]

5% is way too low. Where do you get this figure??? Do you have documentation? 20% is more closer to the truth. I know I am using my memory on this but I believe Collins and Fletcher mentioned the percentage of Bebers in Spain and it was not 5%. But I found a source that confirms what I said: "In the power hierarchy, Berbers were situated between the Arabic aristocracy and the Muladi populace. Ethnic rivalry was one of the most important factors driving Andalusi politics. Berbers made up as much as 20% of the population of the occupied territory.^[49] After the fall of the Caliphate, the Taifa kingdoms of Toledo, Badajoz, Málaga and Granada had Berber rulers.^{[citation needed]} During the Reconquista, Berbers in the areas which became Christian kingdoms were acculturated and lost their ethnic identity, their descendants being among modern Spanish and Portuguese peoples." I got this from Wikipedia but you shuold check out Collins and Fletcher and let me know. There is also a new book you should check: "The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain," by Abdulwahid Dhanun Taha.

During the invasion of Iberia the Berbers did not constitute no more than perhaps 20,000 warriors and their families. But during the Emirate and the Caliphate their numbers grew. I am also sure during the Almoravid-Almohad invasions even more Berbers entered and settled in Iberia. So 500,000 sounds about right. Morocco and Algeria are very close to Spain and Portugal. The Berbers hated the Spanish Muslims and Arabs and so they settled in areas far away from them that had been deserted by Christians (mainly SW and SE Iberia). Then their conversion to Christianity during the 13th century would have added the Berber marker in these areas.

That source says 20% in the occupied territories only, it does not take into account the entire population of the peninsula, and it seems a bit too high to me. Other sources (example: Fermin Miranda Garcia and Yolanda Guerrero Navarrete) say probably less than 10%. The about 5% or actually even less figure comes from here, who is a Professor Emeritus of Hispano-Arabic Studies:

https://books.google.com/books?id=j...re of perhaps thirty or forty to one.&f=false

"It is assumed that the Arabs who settled the Peninsula were numerically far fewer than the Berbers. Whatever their respective proportions, both groups would have been outnumbered by the indigenous population by a figure of perhaps thirty or forty to one. The immense majority of the indigenous inhabitants may be divided amongst those who became Muslims and those who did not."

Simple arithmetic from such proportions shows the estimated percentage: for every 1 Berber/Arab foreigner about 30 to 40 Visigoths, Hispano-Romans, Iberians and Celtiberians = only 3.22 or 2.43% of the population. Allow some room for possible errors, and you get about 5%, more or less. Again, hardly impressive numbers. Most historians specializing in Iberia agree that the number of Muslim foreigners, whether Arab or Berber, was very small. The reason why Islam managed to survive so many centuries in Iberia is beyond any shadow of a doubt thanks to the support it gathered from the huge numbers of local converts, starting with the Visigoths themselves (ironically romanticized by many as some supposed great defenders of Christianity.)

The book by Taha is not new, it was already published in 1989. In fact, the above cited professor Hitchcock uses it as a source in his own book.